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Tuesday, February 18, 2014

McClendon rips Yanks’ Long for Cano critique

McClendon said Long overstepped his bounds with his critique of Cano’s effort with New York and defended the Mariners’ prized offseason free-agent acquisition.

“Last time I checked, I didn’t know that Kevin Long was the spokesman for the New York Yankees,” McClendon told ESPN.com. “That was a little surprising. I was a little pissed off, and I’m sure Joe [Girardi] feels the same way. He’s concerned with his team and what they’re doing, not what the Seattle Mariners players are doing.

“I’m a little surprised that Kevin Long is the spokesman for the New York Yankees. I wonder if he had any problems with Robbie when he wrote that book [“Cage Rat”] proclaiming himself as the guru of hitting.”

Long responded to the criticism later Tuesday.

“That’s too bad,” he said. “I don’t consider myself the spokesman for the Yankees. If you look at all the good things that were written about Robinson you would understand there was no malicious meaning behind any of it. If he wants to speak publicly like that, that is up to him. That is the way he interpreted it. I’m not going to get in a media war with Lloyd McClendon; he’d probably win that anyway.

...McClendon said he doesn’t feel a need to address the hustle issue with Cano, who took part in the Mariners’ first full-squad workout Tuesday.

“I understand,” McClendon said. “I get it. I was a major league player. There are times when you hit balls and you’re frustrated as hell and you don’t give it 100 percent. As long as you don’t dog it down the line, what’s the difference between 65 and 85 percent? Just run down the line. Sometimes that stuff is blown out of proportion.

“To me, the most important thing is the guy goes out there for 160 games a year, he hits .330, he drives in over 100 runs and he hits 25 to 30 home runs. I just need Robinson to be Robinson. Like all the rest of my guys know, just don’t dog it. Am I expecting you to give me 110 percent down the baseline every night? No. I’m expecting you to give me a good effort.”

Yankees general manager Brian Cashman said he has no plans to talk to Long about his comments, but he was a little taken aback by them.

“I was surprised,” Cashman said.

“I never had an issue with Robbie. He played every day. He played nearly every inning and he performed.”

Thanks to Carlos.

Repoz Posted: February 18, 2014 at 05:36 PM | 138 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mariners, yankees

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   101. Lars6788 Posted: February 19, 2014 at 06:16 PM (#4659278)
McClendon said. “I get it. I was a major league player.

Is this a smackdown of Long?


He is saying he knows what it is like to be a MLB player and the frustration of knowing he, his former teammates and players on teams he has coached have sometimes given opportunities away by not hustling down the line and/or not trying.
   102. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 06:22 PM (#4659281)
When did most playyers, not just known lollygaggers like Cano, stop running hard to second on doubles? The answer may be 1900 but it sure seems to me that players used to actually round second hard and watch the throw before heading back to second. I see a lot of guys hitting the brakes as they round first and cruising, the last steps actually walking, into second base. The ball is rolling around for chrissakes, run! Then when the throw gets away some of them make a head fake to third. Most don't even bother.

Kids these days ....


Well, one thing we can say for sure is that the 2B/3B ratio has risen dramatically since, say, 1980:

1980 AL: 2856/523, or 5.16
2013 AL: 4183/348, or 12.02

1980 NL: 2856/523, or 5.46
2013 NL: 4039/424, or 9.52

Even comparing symmetrical Candlestick Park to AT&T Park, with its so-called "Triples Alley," gives you similar results (both parks grass, of course):

Candlestick, 1980: 182/45, or 4.04
AT&T, 2013: 264/37, or 7.13.

You could say, one supposes, that players don't run as hard because the relative value of the bases they can gain and outs they make in seeking them is better understood, but the end result is the same: Players don't run as hard.
   103. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 06:22 PM (#4659282)
Where does the lazy Latino stereotype even come from?

Andy's arsehole.
   104. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 06:37 PM (#4659293)
Double/triple ratio, cont'd.:

Fenway 1980: 342/38, or 9.00
Fenway 2013: 329/30, or 10.96

Wrigley 1980: 268/35, or 7.65
Wrigley 2013: 342/38, or 12.21.
   105. tfbg9 Posted: February 19, 2014 at 06:48 PM (#4659300)
C'mon. It's not cool to run hard.
   106. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 19, 2014 at 06:59 PM (#4659309)
Where does the lazy Latino stereotype even come from?

It comes from the same sort of people who say the same thing about blacks, in spite of some people's professed ignorance of the long-existing stereotype. It's little more than simple prejudice combined with highly selective anecdotal evidence.

I am a physician who sees poor patients of all races and ethnicity. Latinos where I am (northern California) are easily the hardest-working, most industrious, pious, family-oriented group of any group I deal with (if one must generalize about such things). This is particularly true of the first-generation undocumented, who risk their lives to come here, constantly manage to find work and make ends meet no matter how poor the economy happens to be (I am not sure I have ever met a homeless Latino), pay taxes, and receive little-to-no public service in exchange. They do all this so their children can be educated in the United States, and for no other obvious reason. They are in stable marriages and almost always highly involved in religious practice. Their children are well-behaved. They are the actual embodiment of all the "family-values" and "up from the bootstraps" rhetoric espoused by the people who like to espouse such things.

Yes, but they're stealing jobs from "real" Americans, so send em all back where they came from.

   107. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 19, 2014 at 07:00 PM (#4659310)
C'mon. It's not cool to run hard.

Ted Williams sure would have agreed with that sentiment.
   108. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 07:02 PM (#4659312)
Skydome, 1989: 176/31, or 5.68
Rogers Centre, 2013: 318/17, or 18.70

Camden Yards, 1992: 227/34, or 6.67
Camden Yards, 2013: 255/13, or 19.61

(Wow ... 13 triples in a park in an entire season of baseball. Zzzzzzzz.)
   109. Publius Publicola Posted: February 19, 2014 at 07:03 PM (#4659314)
Ted Williams sure would have agreed with that sentiment.


And thus is revealed the motivation.

When a Red Sox player doesn't hustle, it's a character flaw. When a Yankee player doesn't hustle, it's a virtue.
   110. Publius Publicola Posted: February 19, 2014 at 07:05 PM (#4659315)
Sugar, you need to fix the 1980 information in #102. The AL and NL raw data values are identical but the ratios are different.
   111. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 07:09 PM (#4659320)
Sugar, you need to fix the 1980 information in #102. The AL and NL raw data values are identical but the ratios are different.


Yep.

1980 AL should be 3489/555, or 6.31.

Ratio has almost doubled in each league since 1980.

It would be nice to know the relative number of throwouts at third trying to stretch.
   112. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 19, 2014 at 07:21 PM (#4659327)
Ted Williams sure would have agreed with that sentiment.

And thus is revealed the motivation.

When a Red Sox player doesn't hustle, it's a character flaw. When a Yankee player doesn't hustle, it's a virtue.


So you're acknowledging that Teddy Ballgame wasn't necessarily devoted to 100% effort outside the batter's box? Perish the thought.

Actually when any player doesn't hustle when it matters, he shows the character flaw of stupidity.** But players from time immemorial have learned to differentiate a routine ground ball from a ball that has any chance of resulting in a close play, Red Ruffinsore philosophy to the contrary. Jeter himself doesn't run full speed on plays that are almost over by the time he's taken more than a step or two.

**Which Cano has been guilty of on occasion, along with Swisher and Melky and a few other Yankees of the recent past. You guys seem to be confusing a defense of a particular running situation with a blanket defense of a player.
   113. PreservedFish Posted: February 19, 2014 at 07:32 PM (#4659330)
I would like to see more on the 2B/3B ratio. It's interesting. Do league leaders still get just as many triples as they used to?
   114. Lassus Posted: February 19, 2014 at 07:35 PM (#4659331)
Where does the lazy Latino stereotype even come from?
Andy's arsehole.


SugarBear, you are a delusional moron.
FlaglerLive Editor Pierre Tristam’s weekly commentaries are broadcast on WNZF on Fridays just after 9 a.m. Here’s this week’s.

A few weeks ago the BBC had to apologize to the Mexican government because one of the hosts of a macho BBC television show about cars described Mexicans as “lazy, feckless, flatulent and overweight,” and another said Mexicans won’t complain because they’d be too lazy to be watching their show: the Mexican ambassador, they said, would be asleep on his sofa, snoring. It was only the latest but far from foulest recycling of one of the oldest stereotypes about Mexicans, whose origin is not British but American. The stereotype was so well entrenched by the late 19th century that the New York Times referred to “Lazy Mexicans” in a headline in a story about New Mexico in 1879. By the late 1920s, Texas Congressman John Box could go on the floor of the House of Representatives and call for restrictions on Mexican immigration by describing Mexicans as “this blend of low-grade Spaniard, peonized Indian, and negro slave” which “mixes with negroes, mulatoes, and other mongrels, and some sorry whites, already here.” A variation of that bigotry echoes to this day, especially as an undercurrent to the anti-immigration debate. An immigration “reform” message board asks the question: “Why are Mexicans so lazy?” First answer: “Because they are all so obese and know nothing about physical fitness. And its [sic.] easier for them to sponge off the white man.”
   115. Gonfalon B. Posted: February 19, 2014 at 07:45 PM (#4659340)
Jeter himself doesn't run full speed on plays that are almost over by the time he's taken more than a step or two.

And it's something that makes a lot of sense on 995 out of 1000 such plays. It is instructive to look at how the press and fan reaction to Derek Jeter pacing himself compares to how Rickey Henderson was described in the 1980s.
   116. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 19, 2014 at 08:24 PM (#4659360)

And it's something that makes a lot of sense on 995 out of 1000 such plays. It is instructive to look at how the press and fan reaction to Derek Jeter pacing himself compares to how Rickey Henderson was described in the 1980s.


When Cano is as good as Henderson, and 1/100th as entertaining, he can cruise and showboat like Rickey.
   117. sinicalypse Posted: February 19, 2014 at 08:41 PM (#4659370)
man #97 was a good post but it was quickly defecated upon by some unequivocal force of righteousness that marginalized it as "lefty" (??) and as obscure, and therefore irrelevant.

thanks for the entertainment with this thread tho.... it's always fun to watch deeply-entrenched primates go all out at each other.

also, uhhhh, yeah robbie cano is likely a lollygagger and i'm sure it's cost him/team a few extra bases and consequently runs over the years.... but in the end that ~.300+/25/100 sure seems to have no problems paying the bills.
   118. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 19, 2014 at 11:05 PM (#4659429)
Jeter himself doesn't run full speed on plays that are almost over by the time he's taken more than a step or two.

And it's something that makes a lot of sense on 995 out of 1000 such plays. It is instructive to look at how the press and fan reaction to Derek Jeter pacing himself compares to how Rickey Henderson was described in the 1980s
.

When Cano is as good as Henderson, and 1/100th as entertaining, he can cruise and showboat like Rickey.

So IOW "hustling" is optional if your talent and "entertainment" levels are high enough. I figured that if this thread went on long enough that something like that might slip out.

So does Manny (69.1 WAR / 154 OPS+) Ramirez get a pass? What's the minimum stat line that's required in order not to have to run out two hop grounders to the second baseman?
   119. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 19, 2014 at 11:13 PM (#4659432)
So does Manny (69.1 WAR / 154 OPS+) Ramirez get a pass?


He got a pass for years.

Wait, this isn't a steroids thread, my bad. I'll show myself out.

*whistles awkwardly*
   120. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 19, 2014 at 11:53 PM (#4659446)
118 It's never optional, but when you have a personality like Ricky, you just can't hold it against him. Ricky's personality transcended his baseball ability. He was larger than life, so he got to loaf, like Ruth got to drink beer during games.

Cano is as interesting as lint. All he has is his baseball talent. So he has to hustle and stay sober during games.

It may not be fair, but that's life. The lovable rogues get away with crap others don't.
   121. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 20, 2014 at 12:22 AM (#4659456)
118 It's never optional, but when you have a personality like Ricky, you just can't hold it against him. Ricky's personality transcended his baseball ability. He was larger than life, so he got to loaf, like Ruth got to drink beer during games.

Of course you're right, even though it's complete BS in light of everything that's been said against one of the best players in baseball over the course of this thread. Talk about ad hoc reasoning.

Cano is as interesting as lint. All he has is his baseball talent. So he has to hustle and stay sober during games.

Yes, just like Paul O'Neill had to learn to restrain his temper to avoid inflaming the BTF tut-tutters, unlike Teddy Ballgame, whose well-documented personality problems were solely the fault of sportswriters.**

It may not be fair, but that's life. The lovable rogues get away with crap others don't.

You mean that they don't escape the wrath of a few crotchety Old School scolds on the way to a $240 million payday. Cano must be utterly crushed at the thought of this righteous bleating, especially considering the sources.

And BTW does Manny get a pass for his "loafing"? Was he larger enough than life to be excused for trotting down the line on routine grounders, or is your private Lack of Hustling inquisition going to lump him with the lintlike Cano on Judgment Day?

**P.S. I've got nothing against either O'Neill's OR Teddy Ballgame's personalities. AFAIC baseball becomes far more interesting when players aren't all cut from the same mold. But leave us be a bit more consistent in our appreciation for these outliers.
   122. bobm Posted: February 20, 2014 at 12:49 AM (#4659462)
You could say, one supposes, that players don't run as hard because the relative value of the bases they can gain and outs they make in seeking them is better understood, but the end result is the same: Players don't run as hard.

Per B-R data, ROE rates look like they are down, but is it due to better fielding or lack of hustle?

                      1989-MLB 2013-MLB
                 ROE     1,926    1,588
               GB/FB      0.81     0.82
                  PA   160,033  184,873

ROE / (PA * (GB/FB))     1.49%    1.05%


ROE -- Reached On Error
Times a batter reached due to an error
DOES NOT include a fielder’s choice where no out was recorded.

GB/FB -- Ground Ball to Fly Ball Ratio
Includes line drives as fly balls.
   123. bobm Posted: February 20, 2014 at 12:55 AM (#4659463)
It would be nice to know the relative number of throwouts at third trying to stretch.

See data at - http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2013-baserunning-batting.shtml

including:

OOB3 -- Outs on Base at 3rd
Runner is put out while making a baserunning play.
Example plays: out advancing on a fly ball, out attempting to reach another base on a hit,
doubled off on a line drive, or out attempting to advance on a wild pitch or passed ball.
Does not include pickoffs, caught stealing, or force plays.
   124. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: February 20, 2014 at 12:55 AM (#4659464)

Per B-R data, ROE rates look like they are down, but is it due to better fielding or lack of hustle?


You're excluding another major possibility, changes in scorekeeping.
   125. villageidiom Posted: February 20, 2014 at 09:45 AM (#4659515)
But what about the Marlins? Everyone always forgets about the Marlins.
Shhh. Some people are trying to forget about the Marlins.
   126. BDC Posted: February 20, 2014 at 10:09 AM (#4659521)
Rickey Henderson was a player I watched continuously from the mid-'80s (when I moved within range of AL games) through his retirement. (Well, I admit not in the indie leagues he ended up in.) I do not remember him loafing. His image was deceptive. He absolutely loved to stand in the outfield waving to fans, jawing with them. He did that snap-catch thing that looked like he was daring God to make him drop the ball. He went from a glide to a dead run so quickly, and was so fast, that your image of him tended to be of a guy gliding around most of the time.

But think of it: Henderson's signature plays were the BB, which always looks easy till you try it – the leadoff HR, on which you get to trot – and the SB, which involves shifting your weight from leg to leg, pretending not to be up to anything, and then suddenly popping up on the next base. All of them involve precise and alert athletic skills. He was actually a fanatically awake, intense ballplayer. And I know he had "hustle" image problems. But it often seems like big noticeable stars do, and it's amplified in New York. Gary Carter was sometimes blasted for not blocking the plate better. Carter too (like Cano and Henderson) was one of the most durable players at his position. Not a coincidence.
   127. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 20, 2014 at 10:16 AM (#4659524)
I wouldn't say Rickey never loafed, but he was nothing like Cano.

And of course the big difference is that Rickey stole more bases in a couple months than Cano has stolen in his career. Rickey played exciting baseball, constantly in relentless, aggressive motion.(*) Cano plays exceedingly boring and somnelent baseball, and loafs all the time to boot.

Part of that is the different eras they played in. As the 2B/3B ratios, balls in play, other numbers, and the eyeball test clearly demonstrate, today's game is a ponderous slog compared to the game in Rickey's prime.

(*) Which is why he's the most compelling and charismatic player of at least the last 40 years.
   128. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: February 20, 2014 at 10:19 AM (#4659527)
I've been thinking about this basically since Cano signed with the M's. Here's what I've come up with:

1. Cano has always had a minor tendency to pull up early when he's sure he's going to be out.
2. He has this in common with a lot of players.
3. He gets more scrutiny for this because he's one of the best players in the league.
4. He also gets more scrutiny for this because he is a Latino of African descent.
5. It clearly has not cost him or his team that much in terms of on-field production.
6. There were very few 100-post threads about this before he signed with the Mariners.
7. Some of this is money-envy ########.
8. A lot of it, however, is Yankees-related sour grapes.
9. Suck it, Yankees.
   129. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: February 20, 2014 at 10:42 AM (#4659541)
SBB reminds me so much of Armond White but I mean that in a good way because many of the things White says about film I agree with. For instance, Spielberg has been a more compelling, better filmmaker on the whole than Scorcese has been. And of course SBB is correct when he pegs Rickey as the most dynamic and exciting player of our age. And he's right that we have been witnessing a slogging dull period of baseball for a while now. Let's hope players like Trout, Harper and Buxton are set to change that!
   130. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:03 AM (#4659557)
And BTW does Manny get a pass for his "loafing"? Was he larger enough than life to be excused for trotting down the line on routine grounders, or is your private Lack of Hustling inquisition going to lump him with the lintlike Cano on Judgment Day?

No, I always called out Manny for his lack of hustle. Plus, it hurt his game much more than Cano's. Manny was horrible on D, a lot of that due to indifference.

6. There were very few 100-post threads about this before he signed with the Mariners.

This probably has to do with the fact that no one employed by an MLB team ever called Cano out for loafing in the media before this.
   131. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:16 AM (#4659564)
This probably has to do with the fact that no one employed by an MLB team ever called Cano out for loafing in the media before this.


#8 on my list covers that fairly well, I should think.
   132. PreservedFish Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:23 AM (#4659569)
Rickey is a funny guy to bring up in this discussion, given that his comparative lack of 3Bs has puzzled many an observer. A common explanation is that he didn't bust it out of the box like he should have.
   133. The Good Face Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:32 AM (#4659573)
Rickey is a funny guy to bring up in this discussion, given that his comparative lack of 3Bs has puzzled many an observer. A common explanation is that he didn't bust it out of the box like he should have.


I'd always just sort of assumed that Rickey knew he could steal 3rd if he felt like it (and kind of liked padding his steals totals), so why risk getting thrown out trying to stretch a double.
   134. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:33 AM (#4659574)
I wouldn't say Rickey never loafed, but he was nothing like Cano.

And of course the big difference is that Rickey stole more bases in a couple months than Cano has stolen in his career. Rickey played exciting baseball, constantly in relentless, aggressive motion.(*) Cano plays exceedingly boring and somnelent baseball, and loafs all the time to boot.


So now we've got two people who admit that all this kvetching about Cano's lack of "hustling" is because he wasn't as good as an inner circle HoFer, and because he wasn't "exciting" enough. Maybe at some point the two of you could compile a short list of lollygaggers whose lack of hustling is exempt from your scrutiny.

Manny Ramirez was certainly colorful enough, and a slam dunk HoM candidate to boot. Does he qualify for a Rickey Pass, or did his trotting to first on routine grounders put him into your pariah category?

--------------------------------------------------------

4. He also gets more scrutiny for this because he is a Latino of African descent.

Mustn't ever mention this. Only racists ever mention race.

6. There were very few 100-post threads about this before he signed with the Mariners.

That's one point you're wrong about. These morons were whining about Cano long before this, just like others seemed to be offended by Paul O'Neill for different aesthetic reasons. Some of these delicate souls are even Yankee fans.

--------------------------------------------------------

And BTW does Manny get a pass for his "loafing"? Was he larger enough than life to be excused for trotting down the line on routine grounders, or is your private Lack of Hustling inquisition going to lump him with the lintlike Cano on Judgment Day?

No, I always called out Manny for his lack of hustle. Plus, it hurt his game much more than Cano's. Manny was horrible on D, a lot of that due to indifference.


Good to know that at least it's not just lack of flair that colors your judgment about Manny, although now it's hard to see the point of your previous comment about Rickey.

So what about the sainted Teddy Ballgame? His admitted indifference to defense was noted by nearly everyone who saw him in action. Does he get a pass because of his Top 3 all-time offensive record? IOW which "loafers" are exempt from your wrath and which ones aren't? At what point does a player's overall value become the overriding factor?
   135. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:39 AM (#4659579)
Rickey is easily my all-time favorite player. I don't know who #2 would be.

He wasn't lazy, but he sure was a showboat. His lack of triples is likely related to him being right handed and a slow RH out of the box.

The 2B/3B ratio has likely changed a great deal due to the change in ballparks. Very few large gaps any more.
   136. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 20, 2014 at 11:55 AM (#4659596)
So now we've got two people who admit that all this kvetching about Cano's lack of "hustling" is because he wasn't as good as an inner circle HoFer, and because he wasn't "exciting" enough. Maybe at some point the two of you could compile a short list of lollygaggers whose lack of hustling is exempt from your scrutiny.

No such "admission." Not sure where you found it. Rickey occasionally loafed; most players do. Loafing is a way of baseball life for Cano.

So to sum up -- Rickey was way more exciting and he loafed far less.

Clearer now?

So what about the sainted Teddy Ballgame?

How many people on the board were even alive when the Hub fans bid him adieu? Ten?

Is your eyewitness testimony that Williams loafed as much as Cano? If so, and your testimony is credible, Williams was a loafer. This isn't hard. If that isn't your testimony, I'm not sure what your beef is.

The 2B/3B ratio has likely changed a great deal due to the change in ballparks. Very few large gaps any more.

Except it's undergone essentially the same change (Fenway excepted, where it's gone up but not as dramatically) in parks that have spanned the eras.
   137. Brian Posted: February 21, 2014 at 11:27 PM (#4660629)
Thanks sugar bear. That is exactly what my observation was. Triples are out, doubles are in and dogging it is my personal thing too fault. run, damnit!
   138. Brian Posted: February 24, 2014 at 08:15 AM (#4661324)
He wasn't lazy, but he sure was a showboat. His lack of triples is likely related to him being right handed and a slow RH out of the box.


I remember Rickey saying that he never took chances stretching a double because he always felt he could steal 3B whenever he wanted to.
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