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Friday, January 17, 2014

McCoy- Voting on the Hall Needs Revising

Long-time HOF Voter with some new ideas? Perish the thought!

Who is this new Hal McCoy, and what did they do with the old one?

TJ Posted: January 17, 2014 at 01:01 PM | 56 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame

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   1. JE (Jason) Posted: January 17, 2014 at 02:38 PM (#4641099)
FTA:
THERE ARE VOTERS who haven’t covered a baseball game for 20 years and some who only watch games sporadically and casually. They aren’t at ballparks often enough to see players every day.

What the process needs is a screening committee to revise the list of eligible voters every year. There is no reason why a long retired sports editor should have a vote. There is no reason why a long retired sports columnist should have a vote.

Murray just threw up all over his pajamas.
   2. McCoy Posted: January 17, 2014 at 03:42 PM (#4641168)
I never wrote this.
   3. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 17, 2014 at 04:17 PM (#4641200)
I never wrote this.

Now you have. Your posts needed some revising.
   4. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 17, 2014 at 04:44 PM (#4641221)
We let retirees vote for President. What makes the Hall of Fame different? I doubt the problem is worth the cure, Murray Chass notwithstanding. The large voting pool is remedy enough.
   5. bachslunch Posted: January 17, 2014 at 05:13 PM (#4641255)
From the article:

Why is it that Vin Scully and Marty Brennaman and Bob Uecker can be elected to the Hall of Fame...

Er, no. You don't get "elected" to the BBHoF if you win the Frick Award.

He also thinks Jack Morris belongs in and brought up Pete Rose. Oh well.
   6. Walt Davis Posted: January 17, 2014 at 05:27 PM (#4641273)
You could probably achieve about the same result with a lot less angst and debate by just requiring voters (or "retired" voters) to request a ballot.
   7. God Posted: January 17, 2014 at 05:44 PM (#4641294)
Would a basic baseball literacy test be OK, or would that remind folks too much of the heinous tests used in the South back in the day? You could ask voters to complete a simple 5-question test in order to vote. "What team does Mike Trout play for?" and that sort of thing.
   8. Moeball Posted: January 17, 2014 at 06:05 PM (#4641308)
FTFA:

So why aren’t baseball broadcasters part of the process? Why is it that Vin Scully and Marty Brennaman and Bob Uecker can be elected to the Hall of Fame, but they can’t vote on players they’ve seen and covered for decades?


Are you kidding? Brennaman doesn't even know who the best player on his own team is. Yeah, sure, let's give him a vote.

After I won the J.G. Taylor Spink Award in 2002, giving me a place in the Hall of Fame

No it didn't.
   9. God Posted: January 17, 2014 at 06:19 PM (#4641314)
It technically did give him a place in the Hall of Fame. There is a display there for writers. It just didn't get him inducted.
   10. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: January 17, 2014 at 09:18 PM (#4641397)
By that logic, Pete Rose already has a place in the Hall of Fame, too. There's a display there for Rose. Problem solved!
   11. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 17, 2014 at 09:48 PM (#4641406)
By that logic, Pete Rose already has a place in the Hall of Fame, too. There's a display there for Rose. Problem solved!

Except that those writers achieved their place via an election, which Rose didn't. We get it that pointing out that writers aren't actually elected to the Hall of Fame is a Big Big deal to some people.
   12. Srul Itza Posted: January 17, 2014 at 09:57 PM (#4641407)
It technically did give him a place in the Hall of Fame. There is a display there for writers. It just didn't get him inducted.


That depends on how you define the term "Hall of Fame." If you define it as being the collection of persons inducted, then no, he is not in the Hall of Fame.

If you define it as the Plaque Gallery, where all of the Hall of Famers are enshrimed, then also no. The name is on a plaque in the Library.

If you define the "Hall of Fame" as the entire building, then okay, maybe. But the proper title is "National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. I think that implies a separation between the two.
   13. McCoy Posted: January 17, 2014 at 10:13 PM (#4641411)
Except that those writers achieved their place via an election, which Rose didn't. We get it that pointing out that writers aren't actually elected to the Hall of Fame is a Big Big deal to some people.

Okay, Kevin.
   14. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 17, 2014 at 11:56 PM (#4641432)
Okay, Kevin.

We are all Kevin! Even you!
   15. Bob Meta-Meusel Posted: January 18, 2014 at 09:46 AM (#4641469)
I am Spartacus!
   16. Chris Fluit Posted: January 18, 2014 at 09:59 AM (#4641475)
We get it that pointing out that writers aren't actually elected to the Hall of Fame is a Big Big deal to some people.


Some people around here are oddly pedantic about that.
   17. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 18, 2014 at 12:07 PM (#4641513)
When you combine a large group of nitpicking lawyers with an even larger group of media bashers, what else can you expect?
   18. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: January 18, 2014 at 12:45 PM (#4641529)
We are all Kevin! Even you!


And Mike Crudale!
   19. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 18, 2014 at 12:55 PM (#4641532)
I hate it when people like Vin Scully and Albert Belle aren't REALLY in the Hall of Fame
   20. TJ Posted: January 18, 2014 at 01:03 PM (#4641534)
When you combine a large group of nitpicking lawyers with an even larger group of media bashers, what else can you expect?


Yeah, that kinda misses the point of the article, which is that an old school, hardcore, BBWAA traditionalist who over the years has defended the BBWAA divine right of kings HOF vote like a nun defending her virtue is publicly calling for a major change in the process. It's one thing for those outside the BBWAA to call for something like a screening committee. It's something else when a BBWAA zealot like Hal McCoy does it, yet all the focus is on the minutia like writers in the Hall, Marty Brennaman possibly getting a vote, and support for Jack Morris...
   21. McCoy Posted: January 18, 2014 at 01:29 PM (#4641554)
He's calling for a change that would make the Hall even more crazier and even less attractable to the vast majority of people on this site. That he does so from a position of ignorance about the actual hall is a good thing?
   22. Morty Causa Posted: January 18, 2014 at 01:58 PM (#4641564)
I have no problem with saying a writer is in HOF (although I don't know why I would actually say that), any more than I have a problem with saying Dylan won a Pulitzer Prize for literature, etc., or that Cary Grant received an Academy Award, or that Hank Williams is in the Rock 'N' Roll HOF, even though these were all in special categories. I doubt that anyone is confused and really thinks that a writer is being referred to as a HOF-er for his on-the-field feats.
   23. Morty Causa Posted: January 18, 2014 at 02:01 PM (#4641566)
When you combine a large group of nitpicking lawyers with an even larger group of media bashers, what else can you expect?

Be careful. That we are a lawyer-ridden society might just have something to do with why your head (or mine) is not on a pike somewhere. There are pointless court battles, granted, but none with the irreparable injury of those suffered on a real battlefield.
   24. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 18, 2014 at 03:28 PM (#4641604)
When you combine a large group of nitpicking lawyers with an even larger group of media bashers, what else can you expect?

Be careful. That we are a lawyer-ridden society might just have something to do with why your head (or mine) is not on a pike somewhere. There are pointless court battles, granted, but none with the irreparable injury of those suffered on a real battlefield.


Morty, narrow legal thinking has its uses, but not in this case. You say as much yourself in your previous comment.
   25. McCoy Posted: January 18, 2014 at 03:35 PM (#4641611)
I have no problem with saying a writer is in HOF (although I don't know why I would actually say that), any more than I have a problem with saying Dylan won a Pulitzer Prize for literature, etc., or that Cary Grant received an Academy Award, or that Hank Williams is in the Rock 'N' Roll HOF, even though these were all in special categories. I doubt that anyone is confused and really thinks that a writer is being referred to as a HOF-er for his on-the-field feats.

Except people are being confused. Some people think the writers get plaques on the wall and have the same status as the players in the Hall. Hell, even some of the writers who won the award apparently thought this as well based on the anecdote from a previous thread. There is so much confusion about this that the Hall specifically put a statement into their FAQ to address this and have moved the award ceremony for writers to a different day.
   26. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 18, 2014 at 04:56 PM (#4641640)
Except people are being confused. Some people think the writers get plaques on the wall and have the same status as the players in the Hall.

All true, but....

SO WHAT?

WHY DOES IT MATTER?

The Spink award is comparable to a HoF plaque, in that both are the highest honors that can be accorded within two of baseball's respective fields. That's the central point, and why people make such a fuss about the difference between a plaque in the plaque room and a name posting in the HoF Library is one of those things I'll never understand. It's about on the pedantic level of whether a person who gets a BA degree from Columbia should have to say he graduated from "Columbia College" instead of merely "Columbia", in order to avoid "confusion."

And obviously there are a handful of clown names among the Spink winners, but that's an entirely different matter. All lists of award winners contain various numbers of dubious choices.
   27. McCoy Posted: January 18, 2014 at 05:53 PM (#4641655)
Ask a million baseball fans to name a Spink award winner and you'll be lucky to get 10 responses that are correct from them. Ask them to name a HoF'er and you'll get a million correct answers.

The Spink Award is A award. Being inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame is THE honor in baseball. The two aren't even close. The Spink Award gets handed out every single year regardless of whether or not anyone actually merits it. There is no 75% threshold. There is no real criteria other than be in the baseball media business for a really long time. The two aren't even close to being comparable.

Harold Exit's name is also in the Hall of Fame doesn't mean he got inducted into the HoF.
   28. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 18, 2014 at 07:57 PM (#4641696)
Ask a million baseball fans to name a Spink award winner and you'll be lucky to get 10 responses that are correct from them. Ask them to name a HoF'er and you'll get a million correct answers.

Again, what of it? Casual fans are ignorant about 99% of everything relating to everything that took place before their 10th birthday. This is news? Is this supposed to be a virtue?

The Spink Award is A award. Being inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame is THE honor in baseball. The two aren't even close.

All you're expressing here is a yahoo-like contempt for sportswriting. How original. The fact remains that the Spink award is the highest honor bestowed upon a baseball writer, just as the Hall of Fame is the highest honor bestowed upon a baseball player.

And yeah, some of the Spink award winners claim that they're "in the Hall of Fame". Big Whoops. Maybe you and your fellow nitpickers can get a restraining order to put a stop to this outrage.
   29. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 18, 2014 at 08:22 PM (#4641703)
Again, what of it?

Well, the "Hall of Fame Writer or Broadcaster" references aren't coming from the fans, players, MLB executives or the Hall of Fame itself. It's the honorees and their industry colleagues that are embellishing their status and that of their "profession". It isn't accurate, and they should be called on it until they're too embarrassed to continue the deception.
   30. ptodd Posted: January 18, 2014 at 08:41 PM (#4641712)
Nothing wrong with the voting methodology. The HOF should just issue clear guidelines for writers to disregard players steroid use and vote based on the players historical accomplishments on the field.
   31. bobm Posted: January 18, 2014 at 09:17 PM (#4641719)
Harold Exit's name is also in the Hall of Fame doesn't mean he got inducted into the HoF.

But I saw his name on a plaque, over the door, in bright red lights. :-)
   32. McCoy Posted: January 18, 2014 at 09:45 PM (#4641722)
Well, the "Hall of Fame Writer or Broadcaster" references aren't coming from the fans, players, MLB executives or the Hall of Fame itself. It's the honorees and their industry colleagues that are embellishing their status and that of their "profession". It isn't accurate, and they should be called on it until they're too embarrassed to continue the deception.

Bingo!

How original. The fact remains that the Spink award is the highest honor bestowed upon a baseball writer, just as the Hall of Fame is the highest honor bestowed upon a baseball player.

If it is the highest honor it is because the writers have decided to make it their highest honor. Nobody else did. All the award really is is a political plum handed out by a business to the guild that is extremely influential in bringing revenue to the business. What's next, you telling us that all those medals Stalin got were legit?
   33. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 18, 2014 at 09:54 PM (#4641728)
Again, what of it?

Well, the "Hall of Fame Writer or Broadcaster" references aren't coming from the fans, players, MLB executives or the Hall of Fame itself. It's the honorees and their industry colleagues that are embellishing their status and that of their "profession". It isn't accurate, and they should be called on it until they're too embarrassed to continue the deception.


Again, the Spink awards ceremony takes place in Cooperstown, at an official Hall of Fame function. The award recipients are chosen by the same group that selects the Hall of Fame players. The room where the award winners' names are permanently placed is in the Hall of Fame's library, and there's no higher honor for a writer than being selected for the Spink award. It's not as if this is all happening in Las Vegas with no implicit connection to the Hall of Fame itself. Your belabored point is technically correct but otherwise both smallminded and more than a bit obtuse.

But since this clearly offends your tender sensibilities, here's what you're probably looking for. You and McCoy can pool your resources to see who gets to do the paperwork:

How to Get a State of New York Restraining Order





   34. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 18, 2014 at 09:59 PM (#4641730)
If it is the highest honor it is because the writers have decided to make it their highest honor. Nobody else did. All the award really is is a political plum handed out by a business to the guild that is extremely influential in bringing revenue to the business. What's next, you telling us that all those medals Stalin got were legit?

This is more than a little rich, after reading about 100,000 comments on 1000 threads that solemnly declare the Hall of Fame's own moral illegitimacy for having the gall not to honor Barry Bonds. It's especially rich coming from someone who's taken every opportunity to dump on even the Hall of Fame's location.
   35. McCoy Posted: January 18, 2014 at 10:02 PM (#4641731)

This is more than a little rich, after reading about 100,000 comments on 1000 threads that solemnly declare the Hall of Fame's own moral illegitimacy for having the gall not to honor Barry Bonds. It's especially rich coming from someone who's taken every opportunity to dump on even the Hall of Fame's location.


So? What does one have to do with the other? Now you're not even talking about the subject at hand. Now your just throwing shade to obfuscate the conversation.
   36. McCoy Posted: January 18, 2014 at 10:09 PM (#4641734)
Again, the Spink awards ceremony takes place in Cooperstown, at an official Hall of Fame function. The award recipients are chosen by the same group that selects the Hall of Fame players. The room where the award winners' names are permanently placed is in the Hall of Fame's library, and there's no higher honor for a writer than being selected for the Spink award. It's not as if this is all happening in Las Vegas with no implicit connection to the Hall of Fame itself. Your belabored point is technically correct but otherwise both smallminded and more than a bit obtuse.

The Hall of Fame also has the name of every MVP winner housed within it. It also has a section where they hang the jersey of the current star of every team in a locker. None of these people are in the Hall of Fame. The Spink Award is voted on by writers for writers. The President of the BBWAA gives the award to the writer. About the only connection to the Hall they have is that the Hall lists the names of the people who won it in their library and they allow the winner to stand on the same podium occasionally with the inductees. Spink Award winners are as much Hall of Famers as Rookie of Year winner Ben Grieve who also has name hanging proudly within the Hall of Fame.
   37. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 18, 2014 at 10:14 PM (#4641736)
How to Get a State of New York Restraining Order

A layman trying to give legal advice, and doing it badly, I have to say.
   38. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 19, 2014 at 12:38 AM (#4641762)
The Hall of Fame also has the name of every MVP winner housed within it. It also has a section where they hang the jersey of the current star of every team in a locker. None of these people are in the Hall of Fame. The Spink Award is voted on by writers for writers. The President of the BBWAA gives the award to the writer. About the only connection to the Hall they have is that the Hall lists the names of the people who won it in their library and they allow the winner to stand on the same podium occasionally with the inductees.

Congratulations for proving for about the 10th time a technical point that I've never disputed.

What I still can't figure out is why you (or anyone) would care so much about what amounts to a minor bit of CV inflation on the part of a few writers. It's like when Leonard Bernstein used to break a blood vessel every time someone pronounced his name "STEEN" instead of "STINE!!!" and made it sound as if it had been some sort of personal attack on his sacred ####### honor. It's just one more silly example of Primates trying to make a mountain out of a molehill or mistaking a firefly for a fire.
   39. McCoy Posted: January 19, 2014 at 12:54 AM (#4641764)
Why do you care about it?
   40. Monty Posted: January 19, 2014 at 12:57 AM (#4641768)
What if we just stipulated that everyone on this site knows the difference between "won the Spink or Frick Award" and "is in the Hall of Fame," so maybe we don't need the correction posted every time there's an article where someone makes that mistake?
   41. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 19, 2014 at 01:01 AM (#4641769)
Why do you care about it?

My "caring" is solely driven by curiosity as to why anyone would fret about such a trivial bit of resume inflation, when in spirit they're not even inflating it with anything but a bit of semantics. I guess you and YC in this case just bring out the anthropologist in me.
   42. bobm Posted: January 19, 2014 at 01:02 AM (#4641770)
It's like when Leonard Bernstein used to break a blood vessel every time someone pronounced his name "STEEN" instead of "STINE!!!"

"Bern-STINE" but yet "Franken-STEEN"
   43. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 19, 2014 at 01:03 AM (#4641771)
What if we just stipulated that everyone on this site knows the difference between "won the Spink or Frick Award" and "is in the Hall of Fame," so maybe we don't need the correction posted every time there's an article where someone makes that mistake?

Works for me, Monty. Don't know about McCoy and YC.
   44. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 19, 2014 at 01:12 AM (#4641772)
Except that those writers achieved their place via an election, which Rose didn't. We get it that pointing out that writers aren't actually elected to the Hall of Fame is a Big Big deal to some people.


Just correcting the record. I know that's anathema to you.
   45. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 19, 2014 at 01:13 AM (#4641774)
It technically did give him a place in the Hall of Fame. There is a display there for writers. It just didn't get him inducted.


Then the clerk at the HOF bookstore is "in" the Hall of Fame too. As are Abbott and Costello. And the chipmunk that crawled into the drainage pipe coming off the roof.
   46. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: January 19, 2014 at 05:11 AM (#4641793)
THERE ARE VOTERS who haven’t covered a baseball game for 20 years and some who only watch games sporadically and casually. They aren’t at ballparks often enough to see players every day.


Well, McCoy doesn't see players much any more either.
   47. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: January 19, 2014 at 08:04 AM (#4641797)
I never wrote this.

You're not the real McCoy
   48. McCoy Posted: January 19, 2014 at 10:44 AM (#4641815)
My "caring" is solely driven by curiosity as to why anyone would fret about such a trivial bit of resume inflation, when in spirit they're not even inflating it with anything but a bit of semantics. I guess you and YC in this case just bring out the anthropologist in me.

So you're the only one capable of thinking this way and treating this issue this lightly? Your excused from showing up in all these threads and actively talking about the issue while everyone one on the other side are loons?


I too can say that my caring is solely driven by amusement that supposedly knowledgeable folks (both professional writers and so called knowledgeable fans) can continually and routinely think Spink & Frick award winners are actually HoFers. My soul action done for this issue is typing a few hundred words over several hours in this thread. But yes, I'm a loon because I haven't fought the good fight for months or years on this like you have.
   49. McCoy Posted: January 19, 2014 at 10:50 AM (#4641817)
Then the clerk at the HOF bookstore is "in" the Hall of Fame too. As are Abbott and Costello. And the chipmunk that crawled into the drainage pipe coming off the roof.

There are people who actually think Abbott & Costello are in the Hall of Fame. I remember playing craps at a casino and there was some know it all who for whatever reason was spouting trivia questions to the dealers and fellow players. One of the questions he asked was which HoFer did Ruth replace in right field when he came to New York. I told him I know who you think is the answer but that is wrong Ruth didn't replace him and he was gone well before Ruth came to town. That kind of set him back so then he kind of double down on his next question and asked what two people are in the baseball hall of fame despite never playing baseball or working in a baseball related field. I again said I know who you think is the correct answer but that is also wrong and as it turns out it is a rather common trivia question. Wrong though it is.
   50. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: January 19, 2014 at 11:03 AM (#4641821)
One of the questions he asked was which HoFer did Ruth replace in right field when he came to New York. I told him I know who you think is the answer but that is wrong Ruth didn't replace him and he was gone well before Ruth came to town.


Is the supposed answer George Halas?
   51. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 19, 2014 at 11:10 AM (#4641823)
My "caring" is solely driven by curiosity as to why anyone would fret about such a trivial bit of resume inflation, when in spirit they're not even inflating it with anything but a bit of semantics. I guess you and YC in this case just bring out the anthropologist in me.

So you're the only one capable of thinking this way and treating this issue this lightly? Your excused from showing up in all these threads and actively talking about the issue while everyone one on the other side are loons?


Hey, I'm not the one who keeps raising this inane technical point. Are you willing to go along with Monty's proposal in #40? That would put the kibosh on all future skirmishes, while at the same time acknowledging your undeniable distinction between "in the Hall of Fame" and "in the Hall of Fame's Library".

I too can say that my caring is solely driven by amusement that supposedly knowledgeable folks (both professional writers and so called knowledgeable fans) can continually and routinely think Spink & Frick award winners are actually HoFers.

Uh, huh.

There are people who actually think Abbott & Costello are in the Hall of Fame.

And there's your next public education crusade. Sic 'em, boy!

Although from a strategic POV, you'd be better off letting sleeping dogs lie, and doubling down on your bar bets. Given your profession, you could probably gather in a nice little side income as long as the bars in question checked everyone's guns at the door.
   52. McCoy Posted: January 19, 2014 at 11:14 AM (#4641824)
Hey, I'm not the one who keeps raising this inane technical point. Are you willing to go along with Monty's proposal in #40?

Why? Most people on this site when they talk about an article aren't doing so to educate their fellow poster. People bash a Chass article because they wish to educate their fellow posters on how bad he is?
   53. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 19, 2014 at 01:05 PM (#4641874)
Hey, I'm not the one who keeps raising this inane technical point. Are you willing to go along with Monty's proposal in #40?

Why? Most people on this site when they talk about an article aren't doing so to educate their fellow poster. People bash a Chass article because they wish to educate their fellow posters on how bad he is?


I see. So the reason that you keep raising this stupid pedantic point is that you want to demonstrate your superiority to those stupid writers. Sounds like a plan.
   54. McCoy Posted: January 19, 2014 at 01:11 PM (#4641879)
So you need a mutual detente in order to not repeatedly bring up the point as well? If you don't want to talk about it then don't. But for some reason you have to make sure everyone knows that you think talking about it is stupid and pedantic.

How many times do you think I've brought this point up? This is probably the first or second time I've taken part in one of these discussions whereas you are in every single one of them.
   55. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 19, 2014 at 01:21 PM (#4641886)
So you need a mutual detente in order to not repeatedly bring up the point as well? If you don't want to talk about it then don't. But for some reason you have to make sure everyone knows that you think talking about it is stupid and pedantic.

I don't ever begin this crap, but whenever I'm on the site you can be sure I'll continue to wonder what motivates pedantic nitpickers. But don't worry, I'm not in cahoots with the NSA, and your phone messages are safe from my inquisitions.

How many times do you think I've brought this point up? This is probably the first or second time I've taken part in one of these discussions whereas you are in every single one of them.

And yet I've never initiated a single one of these discussions. Funny that.
   56. McCoy Posted: January 19, 2014 at 01:39 PM (#4641894)
I don't ever begin this crap, but whenever I'm on the site you can be sure I'll continue to wonder what motivates pedantic nitpickers. But don't worry, I'm not in cahoots with the NSA, and your phone messages are safe from my inquisitions.

And yet I've never initiated a single one of these discussions. Funny that


This doesn't free you from the labels and insults you throw at others. If saying "I didn't start it" didn't work with your parents when you were a kid it certainly isn't going to work here. The fact that you think the issue is pedantic and stupid and yet without fail actively take part in the discussion reveals more about yourself than what you think it does about the people who take the other side.

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