‘‘I’d like to see more scouting resources devoted to city kids,’’ Billy Williams said. ‘‘If teams are going to Japan and Korea to look for players, there’s no reason for them not to pay more attention to the cities.

Sigh.

Yes, that sure is the problem, Billy. Scouts just aren't lookin for talent in the cities. Everyone knows scouts hate looking for talent in concentrated metro areas. They'd rather spend hours on the road going from town to town, or even country to country, looking for talent than look in a city.

Not this thread again.

For all the fuss that's been made over declining numbers of African-American players in MLB, I think the last few years have seen the beginnings of a reversal to that trend. I have no numbers to cite, just anecdotally.

‘‘Just about every team in baseball has a player-development academy in the Dominican Republic,’’ Williams said. ‘‘I’d like to see more of those in the States.’’

The Latin academies followed the talent; the talent didn't follow the academies. I can't believe people, especially baseball people, still don't understand this basic concept.

Not this thread again.

It's as much of a rite of spring as Opening Day. Someone looks around at the rosters, doesn't see enough black players for their taste, and writes a column.

Maybe we could find last year's column, cut and paste in the responses, and save everyone some time.

1. McCoy Posted: March 06, 2011 at 09:47 PM (#3764836)
blacks in baseball from 1947 to 1959.

Note: this is everybody even if they only played 1 game.

1947 5
1948 4
1949 9
1950 9
1951 19
1952 21
1953 25
1954 36
1955 46
1956 52
1957 53
1958 65
1959 72

2. Rich Rifkin Posted: March 06, 2011 at 09:52 PM (#3764842)
"Where have African-American baseball players gone?"

They disappeared right along with the African-American father, beginning in the 1960s. Look at the vast majority of American players in the majors, black, white, Hispanic or Asian, and almost without exception they either learned the game from their fathers (or an adult male in their household who assumed the paternal role) or they grew up with a father who, though he might not have been a ballplayer, led them in the direction of baseball. More than any other sport, certainly more than any other team sport in the U.S., baseball is a father-son game. It starts with playing catch. Surely there are some exceptions to this, some single moms who pushed their sons into baseball. But in general if a sub-culture removes fathers and father figures from the scene, baseball playing will decline dramatically.

No doubt another factor is the rise in popularity of other sports. However, I think the fatherless society of African-Americans in general explains why the best U.S.-born and raised players are mostly whites, in that those whites could be playing other sports as well, but instead were directed to baseball by their dads.

3. Bob Dernier Cri Posted: March 06, 2011 at 10:17 PM (#3764856)
Rich, your theory doesn't quite explain why there are any number of African-Americans playing college football and basketball (both sexes), and in the NFL, NBA, and WNBA. Getting a kid on a track to major sport success requires a lot of family involvement, plus middle-class expenditures in leisure and practice time. Clearly African-American families make that investment and involvement happen in the case of other sports. I'd reckon successful athletes tend to come from comfortable, well-organized families (headed by all sorts of different marital arrangements) of any color.

This is the umpteenth such thread, but I tend to think that we're just seeing a cultural preference at work.

4. Steve Treder Posted: March 06, 2011 at 10:21 PM (#3764859)
No doubt another factor is the rise in popularity of other sports. However, I think the fatherless society of African-Americans in general explains why the best U.S.-born and raised players are mostly whites, in that those whites could be playing other sports as well, but instead were directed to baseball by their dads.

I don't know, Rich. In the absence of anything but anecdotal evidence, I'm not really buying this. I'm not persuaded that baseball is particularly unique among sports as starting with playing catch, as a father-son game. I stongly suspect that a very high proportion of football and basketball players were introduced to the sport as young children by their dads, and/or other male role models.

African-Americans in the past few decades have pursued football and basketball as professional careers at a far higher proportion than whites. I don't think there's necessarily anything more complicated than simple cultural fashion to explain this: football and basketball have become far more hip within African-American culture than baseball, just as baseball is far more hip within Latin American culture (for both black and white Latins) than any other sport except soccer in some countries.

EDIT: Coke to Dernier

5. YR Denies Jesus Montero Posted: March 06, 2011 at 10:22 PM (#3764860)
Fans of racial equality will undoubtedly be pleased to note the recent uptick in white boxing champions. I don't think the heavyweight top-10 has been this white since Joe Louis was champ.

6. Andere Richtingen Posted: March 06, 2011 at 10:25 PM (#3764861)
Stephen J. Gould pilloried evolutionary psychology for its promotion of adaptationist "just-so stories" to explain human behavior. I'd say #2 is some sort of racial just-so story.

7. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 06, 2011 at 10:41 PM (#3764868)
MLB should outreach to African-American kids so we can get more of them in MLB and deter them from poor choices like a career in Congress.

8. philistine Posted: March 06, 2011 at 10:42 PM (#3764869)
I reread Rifkin's post to check if he was really saying what I thought he was. And he was.

I don't know, Rich. In the absence of anything but anecdotal evidence, I'm not really buying this.

Oh Treder, you're so tolerant. Just call the man a racist. The educated type who tries to use reasons.

There are still plenty of black players in baseball, but they mostly have Spanish names. The foreign labor force is cheaper to farm and easier to discard than an American one. I don't have the data, but I wonder how closely the rise in Hispanic players in MLB corresponds to the fall in black players.

9. Rich Rifkin Posted: March 06, 2011 at 10:47 PM (#3764872)
Rich, your theory doesn't quite explain why there are any number of African-Americans playing college football and basketball (both sexes), and in the NFL, NBA, and WNBA.

It does, but perhaps not satisfactorily. I think baseball, more than all other U.S. team sports, is a father-son game. You take away the father and you take sons who would have participated from the game.

I have no problem with doubters. I'm not saying I can prove this, though the fact that very high percentage of black kids are born to single mothers and grow up in fatherless households is not in question.

I also notice, anecdotally, that the best African-American baseball players who came out of my region in recent years grew up with their fathers. CC Sabathia and Jermaine Dye come to mind, but there have been a number of other lesser lights. I have heard both Dye and Sabathia say that their dads taught them the game. I've heard endless other non-black American players say that, too.

I should not on a personal level that I did not learn baseball from my father. My dad and I played catch a few times. He was in his day a very good baseball player. But he died when I was just 7 years old, and I grew up in a fatherless household. I learned the game playing with my neighborhood friends. However, all of my neighborhood friends had their dads in their households, and it was those fathers who taught them the game and coached our teams and so on. That contrasts with most African-American neighborhoods, where almost no homes have fathers.

My point ultimately is not that a kid cannot become a baseball player without a dad at home. I just think it greatly reduces the chances that he will be led to that very father-son type of game. And hence when you remove so many fathers, you make the odds very low for most black-American boys to become baseball players.

10. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 06, 2011 at 10:49 PM (#3764874)
I don't have the data, but I wonder how closely the rise in Hispanic players in MLB corresponds to the fall in black players.


Well until all the percentages of different races are rising in the game of baseball, I will simply consider it another racist entity!

11. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 06, 2011 at 10:49 PM (#3764875)
Oh Treder, you're so tolerant. Just call the man a racist. The educated type who tries to use reasons.

You seem to be unfamiliar with the meaning of the word racist.

Pointing out a negative characteristic of a group, if true, is not racist against that group. It is only racist if you ascribe the negative characteristics as being inherent to the group.

12. Misirlou's got a busy day, he's wearing a vest Posted: March 06, 2011 at 10:50 PM (#3764878)
The meteoric rise and decline in African-American baseball has been staggering. Dark-skinned players, of course, were everywhere in the Series. They made up 40 percent of the players, but most came from the Caribbean or were Hispanic Americans. Few were U.S.-born blacks.

That’s a stunning reversal.


The NASDAQ composite index used to be over 5,000, now it's a little over half that. That's a stunning reversal.

Maybe NASDAQ 5000 and the number of black players in the 70's were both unsustainably high. Just because something was once at some level does not mean that is the natural order of things.

13. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 06, 2011 at 10:51 PM (#3764879)

Pointing out a negative characteristic of a group, if true, is not racist against that group. It is only racist if you ascribe the negative characteristics to their nature as a race.


When you point out a negative characteristic of a group, aren't you inferring it is to their nature as a race? Otherwise, why even mention their race?

I've always thought its okay to ascribe a negative characteristic to a group, so long as you don't put those characteristics upon individuals within that group. Like green people aren't good at math, but if you meet a green person, don't expect them to be bad at math - that's racist.

14. Steve Treder Posted: March 06, 2011 at 10:51 PM (#3764880)
I think baseball, more than all other U.S. team sports, is a father-son game.

And I don't think there's any particular logic, let alone any evidence, that supports this thought. I'm kind of doubting that many African-Americans now playing in the NFL were introduced to the sport by their moms, aunties, or older sisters.


15. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: March 06, 2011 at 10:57 PM (#3764881)
There are a host of reasons, with the possibility that Rich's fatherlessness argument is even responsible for a small bit. More than that, I'd say it's cultural preferences, an absence of available space/opportunities in cities, and primarily, the game's increasing expensiveness in this country as the chief culprits. More and more it's become a suburban game, because those are the parents best able to afford the ridiculous expenses that accompany kids playing at higher levels.

16. cardsfanboy Posted: March 06, 2011 at 11:02 PM (#3764884)
And I don't think there's any particular logic, let alone any evidence, that supports this thought. I'm kind of doubting that many African-Americans now playing in the NFL were introduced to the sport by their moms, aunties, or older sisters.


not really subscribing to his entire theory, but I can see how baseball is different than other sports. Football is something that is organized by the schools, you don't really need to have developed talent in the actual sport to begin play(except maybe at quarterback) if you can't hit, catch and throw a baseball by the time you are ten years old, there is a pretty good chance you are never going to become skilled enough to be a major league player(exceptions exist of course, but for the most part you get your fundamental level of skill from playing catch and streetball when you are very young) football is a physical talent game, you just need to run, hit someone or catch a ball that is a lot easier to catch than a baseball, and has nothing on par as difficult as hitting a baseball. Basketball again is an easier game to play and it's a lot easier to find pickup games at the park/on the block, than it is to find baseball games.

I think the bigger reason is a combination of causes, the ease to which you are able to find pickup games in basketball, peer popularity of the sport or the fact that the schools really push football/basketball as a way out of poverty into college probably has more to do with blacks not picking up the game than fatherless families.

I was watching the Golf Channel yesterday after the Masters and one of their anchors made a comment about how he thought next Tuesday at the dinner they would be serving something fried. That got me thinking about Fuzzy Zoeller and his comment about what Tiger would serve at the dinner. Apparently rednecks are the last group of people you can openly bash.

For all the fuss that's been made over declining numbers of African-American players in MLB, I think the last few years have seen the beginnings of a reversal to that trend. I have no numbers to cite, just anecdotally.

I agree. Just anecdotally, it seems like there are more African-American players that are drafted high and/or are top prospects. Off the top of my head, Tajuan Walker, Kevvious Sampson, Chevez Clarke, Donovan Tate, Aaron Hicks, Michael Taylor, Tyrell Jenkins, James Jones, Tim Beckham, Josh Bell, Delino DeShields, Chris Archer, George Springer are all minor leaguers with a good shot of making the big leagues soon.

‘‘Just about every team in baseball has a player-development academy in the Dominican Republic,’’ Williams said. ‘‘I’d like to see more of those in the States.’’

Abolish the draft and this will happen pretty much instantly.

Oh, c'mon McCoy. You can openly bash effete intellectuals, arugula-eaters, union-leaders, religious fundamentalists (particularly Mormons, Muslims and Scientologists, but also Christians, if you have the right audience), oil company executives tree-hugging environmentalists, bald guys, short guys, the small-penissed, fat chicks, hairy chicks, ex-wives, gold-digging wives, 20-somethings-who-still-live-at-home-and-post-on-the-internet-from-their-parents-basement, baseball-fans-who-won't-get-their-heads-out-of-a-spreadsheet-and-watch-a-game-sometime, and bankers. God, do I ever hate those small-print-writing, predatory-lending, foreclosure-auto-signing, economy-destroying bastards.

There's plenty of room for bashing, McCoy. You're just not looking hard enough.

one of their anchors made a comment about how he thought next Tuesday at the dinner they would be serving something fried

Did Bubba take offense?

Am I wrong in thinking that there are also lots of Latin American players who are also (at least partly) of African heritage?

My gosh, I showed up to say what I said a year ago, and Shock had already re-posted it. This is getting to be too easy :-D

Oh, c'mon McCoy. You can openly bash effete intellectuals, arugula-eaters, union-leaders, religious fundamentalists

Union leaders have probably never been on the list of people you can bash.

/Hoffa

Am I wrong in thinking that there are also lots of Latin American players who are also (at least partly) of African heritage?

African Americans[2] (also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, and formerly as American Negroes) are citizens or residents of the United States who have at least partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa.[3] Most African Americans are of West and Central African descent and are descendants of enslaved Africans within the boundaries of the present United States.[4][5] However, some immigrants from African, Caribbean, Central American or South American nations, or their descendants, may be identified or self-identify with the term.[3]

Beyonce made Wikipedia's African-American portrait montage?

Did Bubba take offense?

The world waited for Tiger to take offense to Fuzzy's comments?

The St Paul paper ran their version of this article this morning as well. They had Torii Hunter in town as well as the 2002 Twins, so the whole thing was centered around the Soul Patrol. The guys could only surmise that college scholarships were the root cause: lots for football, but a 30% baseball ride meant that you couldn't afford 70% of college instead of 100%.