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Wednesday, December 05, 2012

Megdal: A Proposal: Trade Dickey for Reyes

As it stands now, they’re reluctant to meet Dickey’s demands, which are reportedly two years, $26 million on top of his 2013 salary of $5 million. A three-year, $31 million commitment to Dickey is certainly within the range of reasonable by current market standards, if not a discount. But for reasons of either caution of financial limitations, the Mets aren’t ready to do it.

Meanwhile, their attempts to engage other teams in trade talks for Dickey have yet to produce a deal good enough for Sandy Alderson to pull the trigger on.

As of now, for instance, the Kansas City Royals have ruled out dealing uber-prospect Wil Myers for Dickey. And the Toronto Blue Jays are willing to give up a package headed by J.P. Arencibia, which is decidedly not enough to entice the Mets.

That the Blue Jays want Dickey is interesting, however. And there is a deal that might work for both sides. It fits the framework of each roster, and would in a single stroke, produce a winter of public relations glory for the Mets otherwise unimaginable, given their straitened financial state.

The Mets would trade R.A. Dickey and Ruben Tejada to the Blue Jays. The Blue Jays would trade Jose Reyes and J.P. Arencibia to the Mets.

Repoz Posted: December 05, 2012 at 02:41 PM | 74 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 05, 2012 at 02:53 PM (#4317840)
If Dickey will sign a 2/26 extension, the Mets should sign it before he sobers up. At that contract, he'll be tradable next offseason too.

2/26 doesn't even get you Kyle Lohse these days, much less a reigning Cy Young winner.
   2. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: December 05, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4317841)
The idea of Reyes returning to the Mets just a year after leaving them is greatly amusing.
   3. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: December 05, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4317844)
2/26 doesn't even get you Kyle Lohse these days, much less a reigning Cy Young winner.
But, but...38 year old journeyman knuckleballer.
   4. JJ1986 Posted: December 05, 2012 at 02:59 PM (#4317850)
The Blue Jays just gave up two of their top prospects for Reyes (and one year of Josh Johnson). This is a non-starter.
   5. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 05, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4317851)
But, but...38 year old journeyman knuckleballer.

38 is the prime for knuckleballers.

He's put up a 129 ERA+ in 616.2 IP the last three years. I'd think he's as good a bet as all but the top 10 or so SPs to give you 3 quality years.
   6. Conor Posted: December 05, 2012 at 03:03 PM (#4317857)
Still a big gap in ra dickey contract talks: mets offering about $20M for 2 year extension, he's asking $30M for 2.


That's from Heyman, which I guess you could interpret as Dickey being willing to settle in the middle.

This would be such a no brainer from the Mets POV.
   7. Boileryard Posted: December 05, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4317859)
The Mets would trade R.A. Dickey and Ruben Tejada to the Blue Jays. The Blue Jays would trade Jose Reyes and J.P. Arencibia to the Mets.

This will not occur.
   8. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 05, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4317863)
The idea of Reyes returning to the Mets just a year after leaving them is greatly amusing.


Indeed. I can't see the Jays doing this anyway.
   9. HowardMegdal Posted: December 05, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4317876)
FWIW, this is not a trade I think will happen. But this is a trade I think should happen. As I wrote, there are lots of reasons for both teams to do it. And if it is close, Mets can throw in a prospect, either an arm like Mejia/Familia or someone further away, as Toronto prefers.
   10. SM Posted: December 05, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4317906)
It would be PR glory for the Mets to trade Dickey for a guy they could've just signed on their own a year ago?
   11. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 05, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4317925)
JP Arencibia must be the most overrated baseball player on the entire internet. It's possible for someone to hit 23 home runs in a season and still be a bad hitter. The sillyball era is over but it's not like we're back in 1967.

He has 252 career strikeouts and 56 walks. He has 43 homers and 37 doubles. If you have a catcher who is OK defensively and hits like a poor man's Wily Mo Peña, that's INTERESTING, but it's not worth more than a catcher who is OK defensively and is a more traditional-style bad hitter.
   12. RJ in TO Posted: December 05, 2012 at 03:49 PM (#4317933)
Given all the excitement around the Jays adding Reyes (and Johnson, and Buehrle), it would also be a PR disaster for them to immediately send him back out of town again.
   13. HowardMegdal Posted: December 05, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4317973)
It would be PR glory for the Mets to trade Dickey for a guy they could've just signed on their own a year ago?

It would be relative PR glory to bring him back, and also mitigate losing Dickey.


JP Arencibia must be the most overrated baseball player on the entire internet. It's possible for someone to hit 23 home runs in a season and still be a bad hitter. The sillyball era is over but it's not like we're back in 1967.


You ought to look at the current Met catchers. Arencibia is going to hit much, much better in 2013 than any of them, unless Thole completely rebounds. And if he does, Arencibia is still a more-than-competent half of a platoon.

Arencibia's OPS+ was 89 in 2012. Thole's was 63. Nickeas checked in at 32.
   14. SG Posted: December 05, 2012 at 04:46 PM (#4318019)
And Thole's OPS+ in 2011 was 117 compared to Arencibia's 91, and Thole's a year younger.

edit: Err, never mind. Read the wrong column. I'm dumb.

I'm still not sure I'd take Arencibia over Thole.
   15. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: December 05, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4318023)
JP Arencibia must be the most overrated baseball player on the entire internet. It's possible for someone to hit 23 home runs in a season and still be a bad hitter.


This is a theme for the Blue Jays. There have been 100 seasons in which a player has hit 23+ home runs with an OPS+ under 100. The Jays have had 5 of these in the last 3 years -- Aaron Hill and Adam Lind in 2010, Arencibia and Lind in 2011, and Colby Rasmus in 2012. Eyeballing the list, no other team has had 4 in 3 years, let alone 5.

The Jays have had 9 such seasons overall -- also Joe Carter in '95 and '96, Jose Cruz in 2000, and Vernon Wells in 2002. No other franchise has as many; the Cubs are second with 7.

Lots of players have pulled off the feat twice. Carter and Steve Balboni are the only ones to do it three times. Balboni is best, because he managed it three years in a row (1986-1988).

(Tony Batista had years in which he hit 26 and 32 home runs and was worth -25 and -19 runs at the plate, per BBRef. I remember him as a crappy hitter, but that style of crappiness is incredibly difficult to pull off.)
   16. RJ in TO Posted: December 05, 2012 at 05:06 PM (#4318055)
(Tony Batista had years in which he hit 26 and 32 home runs and was worth -25 and -19 runs at the plate, per BBRef. I remember him as a crappy hitter, but that style of crappiness is incredibly difficult to pull off.)

He also hit 41 homers in 2000, which was good for a 102 OPS+. Also, he hit 25 homers in a season split between the Jays and Orioles that involved an OPS+ of 87 (Giving them 9.5 seasons overall), and was worth -13 runs at the plate. He was truly a special player, even before considering his incredibly ###### up batting stance, and the time he wasn't awarded first when he was hit by a pitch, because he swung at it in an "I'm going to hit this a mile" style.
   17. HowardMegdal Posted: December 05, 2012 at 05:32 PM (#4318078)
I'm still not sure I'd take Arencibia over Thole.

The concussions are what have me worried with Thole. Anyhow, point is that you'd be choosing scenario with Arencibia/Thole over one with just Thole.
   18. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: December 05, 2012 at 05:56 PM (#4318109)
I get that Howard's a Met fan, but why would the Jays trade their all-star SS and one of their two best players for a pitcher with one year left on his deal? I'm not seeing why the Jays would trade Reyes for anyone unless it were a one-sided deal in their favor, which this isn't. If they want to trade for Dickey, they should probably discuss prospects like Osuna, Norris and other guys of similar value.
   19. thetailor Posted: December 05, 2012 at 06:25 PM (#4318137)
Can a Blue Jays fan weigh in on this? As a Mets fan, I'd enjoy this trade, and it doesn't seem absurd on its face. But I always like to hear from the other side.
   20. RJ in TO Posted: December 05, 2012 at 06:45 PM (#4318160)
Can a Blue Jays fan weigh in on this? As a Mets fan, I'd enjoy this trade, and it doesn't seem absurd on its face. But I always like to hear from the other side.

The Jays have already added two (potentially good) starters this offseason, to give them a front four of Johnson, Buehrle, Romero, and Morrow, and assorted acceptable options for the fifth guy. Their rotation (assuming health, which is always a potential concern with pitchers) is not the team's biggest concern.

The offense, on the other hand, is carrying question marks at CF (Rasmus), 1B or DH (wherever Encarnacion isn't playing, and Lind is), 2B (Izturis and Bunny Face), and possibly C (some combination of Buck, Arencibia, and D'Arnaud). Removing Reyes from the lineup and replacing him with someone like Tejada just creates another offensive hole, to the point where there would be questions about whether the Jays could produce enough runs to win.

And then there's also the issue of Reyes currently solving the SS issue for multiple years, while it's easily possible that Dickey could be gone at the end of this season.

As a Jays fan, I'd like Dickey, but not at the expense of Reyes.
   21. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: December 05, 2012 at 07:54 PM (#4318218)

The concussions are what have me worried with Thole. Anyhow, point is that you'd be choosing scenario with Arencibia/Thole over one with just Thole.


Have no fear, they're looking at Olivio!! For some reason!!
   22. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: December 05, 2012 at 08:46 PM (#4318248)
This trade would drive me crazy. Not from a value perspective, which makes sense for the Mets. No, it'll be because the Mets would have essentially paid Reyes market value and given away Dickey for the privilege.

I disagree with trading Dickey in the offseason even if they can't extend him reasonably (no longer than 3 years for less than 15m per) because they'll still be able to deal him in season, and because next season is a year where Mets fans will need something to cheer them up. A knuckleballer making 3m for half the season and then being turned into prospects while being one of the coolest stories in baseball is a cheap way to do that.
   23. Squash Posted: December 05, 2012 at 09:08 PM (#4318257)
This trade would drive me crazy. Not from a value perspective, which makes sense for the Mets. No, it'll be because the Mets would have essentially paid Reyes market value and given away Dickey for the privilege.

This was my reaction as well. They couldn't make this deal regardless because then everyone in the front office would have to be fired, and rightly so.
   24. bobm Posted: December 05, 2012 at 09:47 PM (#4318272)
This trade would drive me crazy. Not from a value perspective, which makes sense for the Mets. No, it'll be because the Mets would have essentially paid Reyes market value and given away Dickey for the privilege.

No way Alderson embarrasses the Wilpons by making a trade which highlights the cash-poor state of the Mets, a team who in earlier years had enough cash to sign Reyes and Dickey (and Wright).

At least the Mets got $7 million from the Marlins along with Carlos Delgado in exchange for 3 prospects.

   25. bobm Posted: December 05, 2012 at 09:49 PM (#4318273)
It would be PR glory for the Mets to trade Dickey for a guy they could've just signed on their own a year ago?

It would be relative PR glory to bring him back, and also mitigate losing Dickey.


Yeah, relative to the Mets re-acquiring Tom Seaver for the 1983 season in exchange for Jason Felice, Lloyd McClendon and Charlie Puleo.
   26. PreservedFish Posted: December 05, 2012 at 10:35 PM (#4318288)
This was my reaction as well. They couldn't make this deal regardless because then everyone in the front office would have to be fired, and rightly so.


Reyes was, unluckily, a FA during the Madoff uncertainty - if he were a FA this year they might have re-signed him already. The trade will not happen but I, at least, would understand the move, and I don't think it would mean that everyone should be fired.
   27. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 05, 2012 at 11:24 PM (#4318308)
I have to say, Dickey asking for a 2y/30m extension is pretty darn reasonable to me. I'd be very happy if the Mets signed him to that deal.
   28. ...and Toronto selects: Troy Tulowitzki Posted: December 05, 2012 at 11:59 PM (#4318327)
The Mets would trade R.A. Dickey and Ruben Tejada to the Blue Jays. The Blue Jays would trade Jose Reyes and J.P. Arencibia to the Mets.


and

But this is a trade I think should happen. As I wrote, there are lots of reasons for both teams to do it. And if it is close, Mets can throw in a prospect, either an arm like Mejia/Familia or someone further away, as Toronto prefers.


The most delusional, out of touch, fanboy thing i've read in years. Incredible.
   29. depletion Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:11 AM (#4318336)
I realize the White Sox already have good starters, but would they entertain trading Dayan Viciedo for R A Dickey in some package form? The Mets really need someone who can hit lefties with power.

Dickey is valuable to a contending team - one that was a few wins away from a pennant. I can't see the point of the Royals doing a deal for him.
Reyes in making $22 million in a couple years. So the contract is good for two years and then becomes a liability. No thanks.
   30. PreservedFish Posted: December 06, 2012 at 01:01 AM (#4318364)
I have to say, Dickey asking for a 2y/30m extension is pretty darn reasonable to me. I'd be very happy if the Mets signed him to that deal.


Agreed. That's the contract I've expected all along. Arguably a steal, actually. BJ Upton costs $15 million, these days.
   31. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 04:36 AM (#4318394)
Man, Ollie Perez got 3/36. Come on Mets.
   32. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 06, 2012 at 08:02 AM (#4318405)
As it stands now, they’re reluctant to meet Dickey’s demands, which are reportedly two years, $26 million on top of his 2013 salary of $5 million. A three-year, $31 million commitment to Dickey is certainly within the range of reasonable by current market standards, if not a discount. But for reasons of either caution of financial limitations, the Mets aren’t ready to do it.
It doesn't make any sense to put this in terms of a 3/31 commitment.

The Mets already have Dickey for 5m in 2013. The issue is whether a 2/26 commitment for 2014-2015 makes sense. While a lot of knuckleballers are out of the league by 39, Dickey's seasonal age in 2014, he's just come off a legit Cy Young season during which he threw 233 innings. That's a career high, and reason to be both reassured and concerned.

Btw, anyone who blithely says, 'Dickey's a knuckleballer, of course he'll pitch well into his 40s,' is looking at the historical record with rose-colored glasses. I'd be happy to sign Dickey to the 2/26 contract that's been mentioned, but it's hardly guaranteed that a pitcher without a UCL and who relies on throwing a knuckler faster than anyone in history is going to be an above average starter at age 40. We're in uncharted territory, and even HOF pitchers struggle to stay in the league by 40.

That said, it's appalling that the Mets have to mull over signing their Cy Young winner and fan favorite to a short, obviously solid deal, especially when they have so much money coming off the books just as Dickey's new contract begins.

.
   33. Lassus Posted: December 06, 2012 at 09:05 AM (#4318417)
This whole thing is now officially giving me a serious headache. The list of things the Mets couldn't possibly screw up just never stops shrinking. It's beyond the laws of known physics.
   34. PreservedFish Posted: December 06, 2012 at 09:32 AM (#4318430)
That said, it's appalling that the Mets have to mull over signing their Cy Young winner and fan favorite to a short, obviously solid deal, especially when they have so much money coming off the books just as Dickey's new contract begins.


Well put.
   35. John Northey Posted: December 06, 2012 at 09:35 AM (#4318434)
I've proposed the Jays send Rasmus/JP Arencibia for Dickey - two guys the Jays have kids almost ready to replace in Gose/d'Arnaud, and backups in place for April/May if needed in Davis/Buck. Whereas Reyes they do not have any decent replacement ready.

Of course, Ruben Tejada is interesting. 4 years of control, just 23 years old and has an 86 lifetime MLB OPS+. His defensive rankings aren't that good (around league average for UZR) so he'd be someone the Jays would only go after if they felt the millions invested in Reyes could be better used elsewhere.
   36. formerly dp Posted: December 06, 2012 at 09:45 AM (#4318440)
I've proposed the Jays send Rasmus/JP Arencibia for Dickey - two guys the Jays have kids almost ready to replace in Gose/d'Arnaud, and backups in place for April/May if needed in Davis/Buck.
I don't think that's enough value coming back, personally. Rasmus sort of sucks as a hitter at this point, as does Arencibia. I'm not sold on Gose, but at this point, I might rather have him than Rasmus. The Mets could actually use Davis, in the short term, and he seems kind of superfluous on the Jays given his salary and the Bunny Face acquisition.

The Reyes/Dickey thing is a joke and should be treated as such.
   37. Lassus Posted: December 06, 2012 at 09:53 AM (#4318443)
I've proposed the Jays send Rasmus/JP Arencibia for Dickey

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.
   38. formerly dp Posted: December 06, 2012 at 10:09 AM (#4318453)
No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.
Just for quick reference:
Rasmus 2011-12: .224/.293/.396/.689/86 OPS+
Tejeda 2011-12: .287/.345/.345/.690/93 OPS+

2010 was a long time ago. And Rasmus is starting to get pricey.
   39. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4318461)
The Mets already have Dickey for 5m in 2013. The issue is whether a 2/26 commitment for 2014-2015 makes sense. While a lot of knuckleballers are out of the league by 39, Dickey's seasonal age in 2014, he's just come off a legit Cy Young season during which he threw 233 innings. That's a career high, and reason to be both reassured and concerned.

Btw, anyone who blithely says, 'Dickey's a knuckleballer, of course he'll pitch well into his 40s,' is looking at the historical record with rose-colored glasses. I'd be happy to sign Dickey to the 2/26 contract that's been mentioned, but it's hardly guaranteed that a pitcher without a UCL and who relies on throwing a knuckler faster than anyone in history is going to be an above average starter at age 40. We're in uncharted territory, and even HOF pitchers struggle to stay in the league by 40.

That said, it's appalling that the Mets have to mull over signing their Cy Young winner and fan favorite to a short, obviously solid deal, especially when they have so much money coming off the books just as Dickey's new contract begins.


Dickey is as good a risk as any top pitcher you can sign for 2/30. Is he as sure a thing as a Cain or Hamels, of course not. But those guys get $100M+ contracts.
   40. PreservedFish Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:04 AM (#4318508)
I've proposed the Jays send Rasmus/JP Arencibia for Dickey


So you've proposed sending spare parts for Dickey? That's cute.
   41. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:06 AM (#4318512)
So you've proposed sending spare parts for Dickey? That's cute.

He's auditioning for a writing gig at Fangraphs.
   42. PreservedFish Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:16 AM (#4318527)
Given that this is the Mets thread, I'll put this observation here. I was checking out the BA Mets Top 20 prospects - there were a bunch of names I'd never heard of. One thing that made me happy is that, for the first time since maybe the Bill Pulsipher days, the Mets actually have pitching prospects that throw the ball hard. I feel like I've been watching every organization in baseball grow power bullpen arms all on their own, while the Mets are always shoveling money out to get someone that doesn't actually throw hard any more.
   43. formerly dp Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:16 AM (#4318528)
So you've proposed sending spare parts for Dickey? That's cute.
Well, considering it's in a thread where people seriously thought the Jays would trade their newly-acquired All-Star SS, whom they dealt two shortstops for, I think tunrabout is fair play here.

Gose seems like a tough player to evaluate right now. Is he bound for AAA again this year, or are they going to give him a shot in LF with Davis? Wondering if the JP connection in the Met FO makes trades with Toronto more or less likely.

Edit: Gose hit .286/.366/.419 at Vegas, the team hit .298/.370/.455. Looks like he still needs another season.
   44. PreservedFish Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:22 AM (#4318533)
Well, considering it's in a thread where people seriously thought the Jays would trade their newly-acquired All-Star SS, whom they dealt two shortstops for, I think tunrabout is fair play here.


Two stupids don't make a smart.

Also, I haven't read every comment but in the first dozen posts you get everyone except the author mocking the idea.
   45. RJ in TO Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:24 AM (#4318534)
Is he bound for AAA again this year, or are they going to give him a shot in LF with Davis?

Gose is going to start the year in AAA, since the Jays acquired Cabrera to play LF. Davis will be the 4th outfielder.
   46. Ravecc Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4318535)
The Mets have money now.

Lil Jeffie was going around yesterday saying payroll is going to be a bit higher this year, so let’s figure $100m is the budget. With Bay deferring $15m and Wright deferring $8m, they have more than $30m to spend. Waiting on a resolution on Dickey doesn’t bother me – due diligence and all that, and I do believe they will keep him if they don't get what they're asking for .

Sandy’s non-Dickey to-do list:

1. Get 2 outfielders. He’ll re-sign Hairston, but is he really going into the season with either of the Dutch strikeout artists in CF? They’re not getting Bourn, so who’s left: Crisp, Gutierrez, Stubbs?

2. Get a RH catcher. What soured them on Shoppach anyway?

3. Rebuild the pen. He’s got Frankie Frank, Parnell and Edgin (maybe). He needs at least one solid arm, preferably LH, and then he can throw stuff at the wall. He hasn't been very good at this.




   47. formerly dp Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4318542)
Gose is going to start the year in AAA, since the Jays acquired Cabrera to play LF. Davis will be the 4th outfielder.
Der. Totally forgot about Cabrera. My bad.

I could see the Jays unloading Davis, given that he'll be an expensive 4th OF. He doesn't seem to have a lot of fans up there, eh?
   48. Ravecc Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4318543)
I was checking out the BA Mets Top 20 prospects - there were a bunch of names I'd never heard of.


It's out? Online version comes out 12-14.
   49. RJ in TO Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:35 AM (#4318548)
I could see the Jays unloading Davis, given that he'll be an expensive 4th OF. He doesn't seem to have a lot of fans up there, eh?

I think he's only making $2.5 million this year, so he's not ludicrously expensive for a fourth outfielder, and he seems well suited for the role - can hit a little, can steal some bases, can not embarrass himself in CF. I don't see them trading him until Gose is ready.

But you're right about him not having a lot of fans.
   50. Conor Posted: December 06, 2012 at 11:39 AM (#4318553)
Given that this is the Mets thread, I'll put this observation here. I was checking out the BA Mets Top 20 prospects - there were a bunch of names I'd never heard of. One thing that made me happy is that, for the first time since maybe the Bill Pulsipher days, the Mets actually have pitching prospects that throw the ball hard. I feel like I've been watching every organization in baseball grow power bullpen arms all on their own, while the Mets are always shoveling money out to get someone that doesn't actually throw hard any more.


I was thinking the same thing this summer. You've got Parnell, and then even over the last few years I'm really trying to think of some more. Beato gave them a good first few months in 2011. But they haven't deveoped a lot of hard throwing relievers, unless I'm totally blanking
   51. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:01 PM (#4318593)
I feel like I've been watching every organization in baseball grow power bullpen arms all on their own, while the Mets are always shoveling money out to get someone that doesn't actually throw hard any more.
It does seem like having guys who throw hard but wash out as starters (lack of endurance, no second or third pitch) and who you can feed into the pen as necessary is one of the side-effects of well run organizations.

Dumb organizations draft guys who are never going to be more than bullpen pitchers, and if that's clear as of college, why would you ever do this? or guys who have nothing but are smart enough to get college hitters out. Smart organizations draft guys who strike hitters out and, as a result, wind up with a bunch of hard throwing bullpen arms in the system.

edit: Mets took Kyle Lohbstein in the Rule V and sent him to the Tigers for $$$. No idea if this is a good thing, but it's a boring thing.
   52. PreservedFish Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4318612)
It's out? Online version comes out 12-14.


Ooops. Turns out it was the MLB.com list. They did a nice job though, nothing hidden behind a pay wall.
   53. JJ1986 Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:14 PM (#4318615)
Dumb organizations draft guys who are never going to be more than bullpen pitchers, and if that's clear as of college, why would you ever do this?


Eddie Kunz was going to turn the 2007 bullpen around immediately!
   54. PreservedFish Posted: December 06, 2012 at 12:23 PM (#4318627)
For 10+ years the Mets were usually targeting "polished" college pitchers. Even the international prospects ended up being polished control guys.
   55. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 06, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4318694)
Gah. I remember Eddie all too well.

mlbtraderumors has the following:

Mets officials suggest the chances of Dickey remaining a Met are in the 55-45 range, says Sherman. The Mets' asking price remains high, as one rival executive tells Sherman: "Any team would take Dickey. But this is not Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee being traded. I would take him, but for top prospects, no."

Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/ra-dickey-rumors-wednesday.html#4mjGrpHSoGGHUZrQ.99


If you can't get a top prospect for Dickey, what on earth is the point in trading him?

I don't have the means to look from here, but is it possible he's one of the few pitchers who actually do increase attendance on the days they're pitching?

   56. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: December 06, 2012 at 02:51 PM (#4318846)
The "rumors" were the same about Alderson's ability to get a top prospect for Beltran. Nobody's in a rush to trade a top hitting prospect for Dickey, but you have to see how the market develops. A team on the edge of contention stacked in the outfield but a starter or 2 short might very well make that deal once Greinke, Shields, etc. are off the table. Or it might not happen.
   57. HowardMegdal Posted: December 06, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4318849)

Thought this was amusing.

The Mets have money now.

And the proof?


Lil Jeffie was going around yesterday saying payroll is going to be a bit higher this year,


Ah, Jeff Wilpon said so is the standard of proof. Interesting.


   58. thetailor Posted: December 06, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4318850)
If you can't get a top prospect for Dickey, what on earth is the point in trading him?


#55 - your Dickey comments are on the money. We're not debating whether Dickey deserves a 3/25 or 3/35 contract - we already have him next season. I would extend him at that price, but I don't know whether I jump up and down with joy to guarantee him $15MM per season in 2014 and 2015 if I don't have to.
   59. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 06, 2012 at 03:06 PM (#4318860)
I could see the Jays unloading Davis, given that he'll be an expensive 4th OF. He doesn't seem to have a lot of fans up there, eh?


I think he had the catch of the year, but in general he's regarded as a good OF filler with occasional bursts of excitement.

   60. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4318903)

Man, Ollie Perez got 3/36. Come on Mets.

Seriously. If the Mets trade Dickey and let some other team sign him to a 2/$26 extension I may be done with the team for a very long time.
   61. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 06, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4318917)
I think he had the catch of the year


It was probably the best display of skill (as opposed to speed or getting a good jump) I've ever seen. High arcing fly, he approaches the wall in plenty of time, then stutter steps for a second or so, times his final two steps flawlessly and pushes of the wall to catch the ball to rob a homer. Davis is about 5'-9" and he cleared the 10' wall with ease.

Or you could just watch it yourself. The weirdest thing about it is that Davis usually takes brutal routes. He has a decent arm and obviously speed to burn.
   62. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 06, 2012 at 04:10 PM (#4318932)
Seriously. If the Mets trade Dickey and let some other team sign him to a 2/$26 extension I may be done with the team for a very long time.
If nothing they've done to date has lost you, why would this?

Serious question.

@61: Whoa.

Maybe the best part was his grin afterwards.
   63. formerly dp Posted: December 06, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4318935)
That was awesome. I had forgotten about it, thanks for posting.

The Jays are in an interesting spot-- if Rasmus continues to stall, Gose can unseat him with ease. But if Gose starts knocking on the door, and Rasmus is hitting, does that push Gose, to RF, EE to 1B and Bautista to DH? First base seems to be the one glaring hole in that lineup (2B isn't great, but tolerable if they're getting good defense).
   64. Matthew E Posted: December 06, 2012 at 04:42 PM (#4318959)
63: They might do that in the short term, but I don't think Gose's bat plays outside of CF. You'd have to think they'd make some kind of trade to fit it all together; Rasmus or Gose out, and someone who can really hit comes in to play RF/1B/DH.
   65. ...and Toronto selects: Troy Tulowitzki Posted: December 06, 2012 at 04:43 PM (#4318962)
I think he had the catch of the year, but in general he's regarded as a good OF filler with occasional bursts of excitement.

Personally, I think Snider's catch at Citi Field beats Davis. Snider scaled the wall and then some.

But if Gose starts knocking on the door, and Rasmus is hitting, does that push Gose, to RF, EE to 1B and Bautista to DH? First base seems to be the one glaring hole in that lineup

Encarnacion is the first baseman now. They're good. Lind (at DH) is unfortunately still around, though he's finally a hair away from finally being utilized properly in a platoon role.
   66. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4318972)

If nothing they've done to date has lost you, why would this?

Serious question.


Before, the Mets were stupid but at least willing to spend. That's a recipe that will get you a winning team every once in a while, as it has with the Mets, who have had several pretty good runs during my lifetime (mid-late 80s, late 90s, mid-00s). Stupid and cheap would be another thing entirely.

Plus, how can you not bring back Dickey? He's got to be the most likeable player on the team, if not in baseball.
   67. Matthew E Posted: December 06, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4318973)
Lind (at DH) is unfortunately still around, though he's finally a hair away from finally being utilized properly in a platoon role.
I am coming around to the position that the ideal platoon role for Lind is one where the Jays have one guy who plays first or DHs (depending on Encarnacion) against RHPs, another guy who plays first or DHs against LHPs, and Lind sits at home and plays Skylander Giants.
   68. ...and Toronto selects: Troy Tulowitzki Posted: December 06, 2012 at 05:03 PM (#4318991)
Encarnacion smoked LH/RH's last year, so i'm fine with him holding the 1B crown all to himself. And as always, i'm all for catapulting Adam Lind into the sun. But, I can gather why Anthopoulos would try to ring out some value from him considering it looks like he'd have to eat the $5.15M he's owed to replace him entirely.
   69. Matthew E Posted: December 06, 2012 at 05:20 PM (#4319015)
Yeah, I didn't mean that they should platoon Encarnacion; just that I have no preference about whether Encarnacion should be the first baseman or the DH.
   70. ...and Toronto selects: Troy Tulowitzki Posted: December 06, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4319039)
Nor I. All I care about, is that the days of bending over backwards with opportunities, and making excuses for Adam Lind by management or anyone, are over.
   71. RJ in TO Posted: December 06, 2012 at 05:40 PM (#4319048)
But, I can gather why Anthopoulos would try to ring out some value from him considering it looks like he'd have to eat the $5.15M he's owed to replace him entirely.

I am willing to donate $100 towards the "Buy out Adam Lind's contract and get him out of town" fund.
   72. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 06, 2012 at 09:59 PM (#4319182)
Before, the Mets were stupid but at least willing to spend. That's a recipe that will get you a winning team every once in a while, as it has with the Mets, who have had several pretty good runs during my lifetime (mid-late 80s, late 90s, mid-00s). Stupid and cheap would be another thing entirely.

Plus, how can you not bring back Dickey? He's got to be the most likeable player on the team, if not in baseball.
Completely inarguable.

---

If anything tells us how far the Mets have fallen, it's that a Met thread has been hijacked by Blue Jays fans.
   73. Snowboy Posted: December 07, 2012 at 01:34 AM (#4319254)
Well, it was a pretty stupid Mets column, and thread, to begin with.
You're lucky to have learned something about the Blue Jays in this thread, and not just have it devolve into something about kitty names or navel lint. It shouldn't have gone further than 5 posts, with four of them being about the author owing a new keyboard.
(Sorry, Howard. I don't follow you closely, and I think in general you get it. I hope you drank four or five stiff ones before you penned this one. The Jays are not going to trade three major league shortsops in one offseason, even if they have assurances that they can extend a Cy Young winner at market value. The Jays right now have a very competitive starting four in the rotation. So I doubt they trade an All-Star hitter/fielder to get another pitcher, as good as he "might" be, and then have to start a placeholder SS like RTejada.)
   74. Jim Kaat on a hot Gene Roof Posted: December 10, 2012 at 04:42 PM (#4321200)
Plus, how can you not bring back Dickey? He's got to be the most likeable player on the team, if not in baseball.


That's why I hope they trade him. Dickey would probably be the most popular player in America if he didn't play on a New York team. And aside the fact that all decent people in America outside New York hate New Yorkers (but only half as much as New Yorkers hate them), from New Yorkers' perspective Dickey has the worst kind of background and interests and maybe even personality for "star" value: relatively worldly and literate for any ballplayer but especially for one whose origins are in Appalachia, he'll never be more than a useful yokel to them.

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