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Saturday, September 29, 2007

Members of the ‘64 Phils say they can sympathize with the Mets.

Costen shockley...that’s what the Mets are going through, costen shockley.

“I feel sorry for them; they’ve been in first place the whole year,” Tony Gonzalez, a starting outfielder on the ‘64 Phils, said yesterday from his home in Miami. “And there’s a chance they won’t even get the wild card.”

Gonzalez paused.

“I was through it in ‘64 and wouldn’t want it to happen to anybody else,” he said. “No matter what you do, you keep falling down. The Mets scored nine runs the other day and still lost. Their bullpen was the best in the league earlier in the year, and now they can’t get anybody out. The same funny things happened to us in ‘64.

“[Johnny] Callison hit three homers in a game, and we still lost. Chico Ruiz and Willie Davis stole home to beat us. In another game, Felipe Alou strikes out and reaches first on a passed ball with two outs, and then Hank Aaron hits a homer into the upper deck and beats us. I think ‘64 was worse than what’s happening with the Mets because of the way we lost.”

Repoz Posted: September 29, 2007 at 12:22 PM | 54 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, mets, obituaries, phillies

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: September 29, 2007 at 01:10 PM (#2549700)
Gonzalez's memory is better than most, but not perfect

Ruiz and Davis did have steals of home

Callison did have a 3HR game that they lost

but the Aaron HR never happened, at least, not down the stretch in 64

still, that's pretty good, the way old-time ballplayers often mangle memories
   2. TerpNats Posted: September 29, 2007 at 01:56 PM (#2549711)
In the 10-game losing streak, the Phillies opened and closed it with losses to Cincinnati, a pennant contender (first at home, then on the road). Then they lost at home to Milwaukee, which finished above .500, and at St. Louis, the eventual pennant winner. In contrast, the Mets' slide is five games, all at home, against sub-.500 teams -- and they were coming off winning three of four at Florida, a series which appeared to give them sufficient breathing room.
   3. AndrewJ Posted: September 29, 2007 at 04:43 PM (#2549814)
Often forgotten: The '64 Phillies had been playing around .500 ball in the month before the 10-game skid. An extra victory or two in late August, and the Cardinals' surge would have gone for naught.
   4. Lassus Posted: September 29, 2007 at 04:47 PM (#2549816)
Full acknowledgement: WE SUCK

But

I don't get how they can be calling this collapse worse then the Phillies. Just mathematically. Isn't 6.5 in 11 games worse than 7.5 in 17 games? Can someone explain how it's worse? I don't get it.
   5. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: September 29, 2007 at 04:50 PM (#2549819)

I don't get how they can be calling this collapse worse then the Phillies. Just mathematically. Isn't 6.5 in 11 games worse than 7.5 in 17 games? Can someone explain how it's worse? I don't get it.


According to Nate Silver's article over on BP, the Phillies faced a very difficult schedule in their last 12 games while the Cardinals schedule was easy, and that made the effective lead smaller than it appeared. IIRC, the 1964 Phillies isn't even in the top 3 on his list.
   6. PatrickInTheWoods, Apostate Posted: September 29, 2007 at 04:53 PM (#2549825)
Well, so far the Mets collapse was in 14 or fifteen games...
   7. BDC Posted: September 29, 2007 at 04:55 PM (#2549828)
Isn't 6.5 in 11 games worse than 7.5 in 17 games?

It's kind of like "was Vicksburg worse for the South than Gettysburg?"

At the risk of a 200-post Civil War History thread :)
   8. St.Philly Posted: September 29, 2007 at 04:56 PM (#2549829)
According to the computer over at Baseball Prospectus the Mets collapse is much worse than the 1964 Phils. The Phils that year collapsed in the face of a tough schedule while the Mets this year have done it with a much easier schedule. The 1964 Phils had a 1 in 25 chance of collapsing, the Mets had a 1 in 500 chance of collapsing this year.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6764
   9. PatrickInTheWoods, Apostate Posted: September 29, 2007 at 04:56 PM (#2549830)
Of course, I think that all of this is really a cruel trick the universe is playing on the Phillie Phaithful: they come all the back to the lead in the last weekend, only to... Well, let's not speak more of it lest we tempt it to the surface.
   10. BDC Posted: September 29, 2007 at 04:59 PM (#2549833)
According to the computer

Part of this is because the Mets will have fallen out of not one but two playoff berths (if!) ... right?
   11. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: September 29, 2007 at 05:02 PM (#2549835)
Well, so far the Mets collapse was in 14 or fifteen games...

By the same token, the '64 Phillies had a 6.5 game lead with eleven games to play but only needed seven of those games to fall out of first.
   12. Swedish Chef Posted: September 29, 2007 at 05:05 PM (#2549839)
I don't get that, if they blow the division and don't have a huge buffer in the wild card standings the probability that they will miss the wild card is very, very high.
   13. PatrickInTheWoods, Apostate Posted: September 29, 2007 at 05:55 PM (#2549927)
There you go then.
   14. BDC Posted: September 29, 2007 at 06:21 PM (#2549957)
In any case the BPro odds are just a kind of heuristic. Each great collapse has its own "feel." The '64 Phillies because they fell back into such a big pack so quickly, the '69 Cubs because they fell so far and then kept falling so far behind, the '51 Dodgers because even after falling they were on the verge of coming from behind to win the playoff series. It's all deeply horrible :)

I don't suppose an 8-0 lead after three innings today is reviving Met-fan hopes any ...?
   15. robinred Posted: September 29, 2007 at 06:27 PM (#2549970)
I don't suppose an 8-0 lead after three innings today is reviving Met-fan hopes any
****
There is an excellent chance the Mets go 2-0 and the Phillies go 1-1, although I can see why Mets fans wouldn't feel that way.
   16. Sam M. Posted: September 29, 2007 at 06:30 PM (#2549972)
I don't suppose an 8-0 lead after three innings today is reviving Met-fan hopes any ...?

Um, no. Check out the chatter.

There is an excellent chance the Mets go 2-0 and the Phillies go 1-1, although I can see why Mets fans wouldn't feel that way.

Ha. This is just not going to happen. You haven't been following what's been happening the way we have. It's just not gonna happen.
   17. BDC Posted: September 29, 2007 at 06:34 PM (#2549976)
I was looking for that chatter, Sam. Seems to be marked 28 Sept, with Perez pitching. I can see why y'all are bummed out ...
   18. TerpNats Posted: September 29, 2007 at 06:50 PM (#2550003)
One good byproduct of all this is that it has really sparked a Mets-Phillies rivalry that hadn't really existed before. True, they are in geographic proximity, but until this year they had never really been a pennant race together. When the Phils were good, the Mets were bad and vice versa.

Keep in mind that a Yankees-Red Sox rivalry didn't really take off until after World War II, with the Bosox hiring Joe McCarthy and becoming competitive. Before then, the Yankees' big rivalries were with the Philadelphia A's in their glory days, and to a lesser extent the Tigers and even the Senators. Yes, the Red Sox improved due to Yawkey's cash, but until the mid-forties they weren't really deemed a threat. The revisionist Red Sox histories would have you believe that this was always the big rivalry; not the case.
   19. robinred Posted: September 29, 2007 at 06:56 PM (#2550008)
One good byproduct of all this is that it has really sparked a Mets-Phillies rivalry that hadn't really existed before


Good point. This is why I support the unbalanced schedule as well in spite of its disadvantages.

Ha. This is just not going to happen. You haven't been following what's been happening the way we have. It's just not gonna happen

The Phillies used their ace last night. Any of their other pitchers can give up enough runs for them to lose. The Mets have a big lead today.
   20. Sam M. Posted: September 29, 2007 at 07:06 PM (#2550034)
The Phillies used their ace last night. Any of their other pitchers can give up enough runs for them to lose.

The Phillies will score as many runs as they need to to win the next two days. It's not like Washington has Walter Johnson ready to take the ball for them. The division is theirs.
   21. McCoy Posted: September 29, 2007 at 07:09 PM (#2550039)
One good byproduct of all this is that it has really sparked a Mets-Phillies rivalry that hadn't really existed before

Ever been to a game at the Vets when the Mets are in town?
   22. robinred Posted: September 29, 2007 at 07:13 PM (#2550047)
Ever been to a game at the Vets when the Mets are in town?


No, but there is a difference between a rivalry and "Locals hating the New York team." If the Phillies hold on, Mets fans will have a real reason to hate back. Rivalries come largely from geography and hard-fought competition for championships. The two together breed mutual animosity. Mets/Phillies now has both.
   23. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: September 29, 2007 at 07:54 PM (#2550141)
Uh guys. John Maine's performance today should give you some hope--one hit over 7.2 with 14 K. He's resting the bullpen and the Mets have got their hitting shoes on.

Phillies have to win an Adam Eaton start or it's tied after 161.

You're not dead yet.

Best Regards

John
   24. Sam M. Posted: September 29, 2007 at 07:59 PM (#2550158)
John Maine's performance today should give you some hope--one hit over 7.2 with 14 K.

Maine was brilliant. He was beyond brilliant, taking the no-hitter into the top of the 8th, and only losing it on a squibber down the third base line. It was a thrilling thing to hear on WFAN, believe me.

It has nothing to do with that the Phillies are going to do, however.
   25. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: September 29, 2007 at 08:19 PM (#2550193)
Hey, they have some pressure on them now. It's easy when you're chasing and playing like you've got nothing to lose. Now the Phillies have something to lose. That's pressure now the Phillies are no longer the underdog. If they lose today, they lose control over their destiny. The Phillies played the underdog well, we have no idea how they'll handle being the front runner and closing the deal.

I think the Phillies lose today but for all of Jamie Moyer's struggles he has had some decent starting assignments. In his last 12 starts he has:

IP ER OPP
7.0 0 PIT
6.0 1 FLA
6.1 3 ATL
6.0 2 NYM
7.0 2 NYM
6.0 1 StL 


So six pretty good outings over 12 starts where he has posted a 5.40 ERA. I feel he pitches well tomorrow. Today though, I think the days ends with the NL East in a tie. Admit it Sam ... you didn't see today's result coming now did you?

That's why you play the games.

Best Regards

John
   26. Gonfalon B. Posted: September 29, 2007 at 08:38 PM (#2550208)
Admit it Sam ... you didn't see today's result coming now did you?

I always assumed that Maine would pitch a no-hitter for 7 and a third, but I confess that the 7.2 surprised me. That extra 0.3 really showed me something.
   27. Sam M. Posted: September 29, 2007 at 08:45 PM (#2550216)
Admit it Sam ... you didn't see today's result coming now did you?

Honestly? The only thing I am truly convinced of is that the Phillies are going to win the next two games. They have played magnificently, they are at home, they are facing a much inferior opponent, and the Nats' starters just cannot hold them. As for the Mets' results, I certainly didn't see Maine's performance coming, but I am not at all shocked that they won. I hadn't entirely given up hope that at some point, the quality of the team could yet emerge.
   28. 1k5v3L Posted: September 29, 2007 at 08:48 PM (#2550221)
Matt Chico is dominating the Phillies! It's all a part of the Dbacks plan to ensure the Mets, Phils and Padres have a three team playoff for the last two playoff games.
   29. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: September 29, 2007 at 08:57 PM (#2550228)
Eaton didn't get out of the third inning. 1-0 Nats and they're already into the bullpen.

Edit: 2-0 and Joe Table is in the game.

Like I said, I expect the East to be tied after 161.

Best Regards

John
   30. Sam M. Posted: September 29, 2007 at 09:03 PM (#2550231)
Believe me, John, I'll be more than happy to be wrong. All I can do is tell you what I honestly believe. This is a hard-earned belief, come out of watching the Phillies take advantage of what's gone on with the Mets over the past two weeks. They have plenty of time to get to Chico.
   31. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 29, 2007 at 09:16 PM (#2550246)
Honestly? The only thing I am truly convinced of is that the Phillies are going to win the next two games.


The only thing that I'm convinced of this I have no idea what's going to happen.
   32. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: September 29, 2007 at 09:20 PM (#2550252)
Believe me Sam, I know how you feel--remember the Jays in '87? However with the Jays, we lost two of our "key hits" guys in Fernandez and Whitt. The Mets are largely intact and the Phillies are going to burn through a lot of their bullpen today.

That's why they play 162 games. A lot has happened and a lot will happen. The Mets needed a good game today and got a great one. The Phillies are playing a game today that will decide if they control their fate tomorrow.

I know, I know. Hey, can ya blame me? As I said, I've been through this myself and nothing helps and I hate to see anyone* or anything suffer (and that includes Mets fans). But as a wise Jedi master who looked like the love-child of Bugs Bunny and E.T. once said: "Always in motion the future is."

Best Regards

John

*See amendment 1A "The David Samson Exemption" and amendment 2A "The Stupid Cat" Exemption in the subsection entitled: "Small Things That Really Piss me Off"
   33. Esoteric Posted: September 29, 2007 at 09:34 PM (#2550271)
Chico just walked Kyle Lohse on four pitches after getting the first out. Actually, it's his first truly poor at-bat of the game. But this could be where the Phillies take advantage.

EDIT: Nevermind. Didn't even finish the post before Rollins swung at the first pitch for a GIDP. Egads.
   34. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: September 29, 2007 at 09:36 PM (#2550277)
Dammit Sam, I just cited an example from something that happened 20 years ago.

Now I feel old. Now get the hell off my lawn!

Best Regards

John
   35. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 29, 2007 at 09:37 PM (#2550278)
If the Nats score about 20 or more runs, I think Sam will feel better. I know I will. :-)
   36. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 29, 2007 at 09:38 PM (#2550279)
Now I feel old.


Hey, I resemble that remark! Especially since I'm the same age as you, John.
   37. Sam M. Posted: September 29, 2007 at 09:46 PM (#2550281)
I think Sam will feel better.

Sam's about to get into a tux and go to a charity event which pretty much every gay person in Louisville (well, every one with a certain amount of money, anyway) will be attending. Raising money for good causes will remind me what's really important, and that will probably make me feel better. And even if it doesn't, I probably need that reminder these days anyway. Baseball's fun, but it isn't the real deal, now is it? ;-)
   38. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 29, 2007 at 09:49 PM (#2550284)
Baseball's fun, but it isn't the real deal, now is it? ;-)


Yeah, some day I'll actually believe it, Sam. :-D

Have fun tonight!
   39. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: September 29, 2007 at 10:07 PM (#2550309)
4-0 ... Phillies have nine outs left.

Best Regards

John
   40. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: September 29, 2007 at 10:33 PM (#2550338)
4-1 Sam ... 6 outs to go.

Best Regards

John
   41. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: September 29, 2007 at 10:46 PM (#2550351)
4-2 ... 3 outs to go.

Best Regards

John
   42. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: September 29, 2007 at 11:07 PM (#2550392)
Mets tied for first again.

Told ya. They control their own destiny. Win tomorrow and if necessary a playoff game. They no longer need another team to "help them out."

Romero, Gordon, and Myers all pitched as well.

Not looking good for the Phils right now. They're going to have to score a lot of runs on Sunday.

Best Regards

John
   43. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 29, 2007 at 11:13 PM (#2550403)
Told ya.


Remind me to listen to you more often, John. :-)
   44. Banta Posted: September 29, 2007 at 11:16 PM (#2550409)
Tom Glavine needs to be huge tomorrow. Willis isn't gonna roll over.
   45. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: September 29, 2007 at 11:17 PM (#2550411)
Remind me to listen to you more often, John. :-)


Glad I could help. I've seen too much crazy stuff in this game to take anything for granted. I've seen the unexpected and impossible occur all too often.

Momentum is one game.

Best Regards

John
   46. Dag Nabbit: secretary of the World Banana Forum Posted: September 29, 2007 at 11:24 PM (#2550421)
I said yesterday that Mets fans were overreacting. The pitching match-ups this weekend favor the Mets all the way. Today's actually favored them less than tomorrow.

So six pretty good outings over 12 starts where he has posted a 5.40 ERA.

Yea, but did you notice only 2 of his last 8 are any good? His last 8 GS: 44 IP, 59 H, 19 W, 32 K, 6.75 ERA

Moyer faces Bergman who is average and thus far better than him. GLavine's had two straight bad starts. Last time he did that he responded by holding Oakland to 1 run in 8 innings. And the Phillie 'pen is worn out and worn out badly. It ain't just today, Manuel's pulled off hte hot streak by running his main relievers into the ground.

It's like people think that becaseu Phillies's ben hot they'll never cool off.

Remember: under Charlie Manuel the Phillies have excelled at exactly just one thing: played just well enough to miss the playoffs.

Tom Glavine needs to be huge tomorrow. Willis isn't gonna roll over.

Actually, Willis has spent most of the year getting rolled.
   47. greenback likes millwall Posted: September 29, 2007 at 11:29 PM (#2550427)
I said yesterday that Mets fans were overreacting.


They're reverse-jinxing rather than overreacting.
   48. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: September 29, 2007 at 11:29 PM (#2550428)
Remember: under Charlie Manuel the Phillies have excelled at exactly just one thing: played just well enough to miss the playoffs.


Agreed. They asked me on the Mike Gill Show last Wednesday whether Manuel should be canned.

I said yes. Heck, I've been saying yes every time they've asked that question over the last 18 months. If the Phillies make the playoffs--he should still be fired. If they get there it will be in spite of him, not because of him.

Best Regards

John
   49. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: September 29, 2007 at 11:36 PM (#2550446)
If the Phillies and Mets win Sunday and the Padres lose, both the East and the WC are tied with 89 wins.

Should be fun.

I wrote in THT about my recent conversion to Phillie-dom since the Expos were no more and it's kind of funny how I'm feeling right now (giving comfort and aid to the enemy? What am I thinking?). I'm enjoying the experience of watching a rooting interest slug it out to the final day for the first time in 14 years that I'm focusing on enjoying the ride and the anxiety ... the whole works.

Sure, I'll be bummed tomorrow if the Phillies lose out but it will have been worth it just to feel that nervous energy, the uncertainty, the anticipation--the whole deal again. As a 49er/Maple Leafs/Blue Jays fan it's been quite some time since I've been able to do this and I'll enjoy it until the bitter end.

Game 162 and I'm still cheering, biting my nails and drinking too much beer? I'll take that gratefully.

Go Phillies!

Best Regards

John
   50. Urban Faber Posted: September 29, 2007 at 11:38 PM (#2550455)
And Colorado could get to 89 wins with victories tonight and Sunday against an Arizona team that has already clinched the No. 1 NL seed.
   51. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: September 29, 2007 at 11:39 PM (#2550456)
You're a 49er and Leaf fan?

I resemble that remark!
   52. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: September 29, 2007 at 11:43 PM (#2550460)
You're a 49er and Leaf fan?

I resemble that remark!


Sucks to be you us eh? Yup, been rooting for the Leafs since the late 1960's and the 49ers since the early 1970's. The Expos and Jays from their inception and the Phillies I'm guessing for a little over a year (although it never dawned on me until the Phillies comeback against Wagner at the end of August).

Best Regards

John
   53. Benji Posted: September 30, 2007 at 12:09 AM (#2550514)
another 9er fan here, since the Brodie days.
   54. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: September 30, 2007 at 12:09 AM (#2550515)
I've been a Leaf and Niner fan as long as I can remember. Leaf fan because of hockey night and Canada and a Niner fan because I always liked Jerry Rice when I was a kid.

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