I have no doubt that Castro would have said all the right things but there is just no way Elian's father would have felt confident that his family and friends would have been safe from recrimination.

It's possible that the father thought his son would be best provided for outside of the clutches of the imperialist American swine and their decadent, inhumane lifestyle.

In which case, the child should still probably go back to the father.

Is this the new approved talking point on this?

Well "The kids led them on" had a pretty limited shelf life. Rest assured William Donohue and his gang of Papist thugs are hard at work coming up with new methods to excuse and cover-up the crimes of their gods on earth.

Is this the new approved talking point on this?

No, it's just true. When you get people trying to dredge up a bunch of 30 y.o. memories, you'll get some baseless accusations. Not to mention the scum who are just trying to cash in on the suffering of others.

Not to say there weren't plenty of abusers, and plenty of enablers, all of whom deserve punishment. I've stated before that Cardinal Law belongs in jail, and Cardinal Mahoney probably does too. Cardinal Bernadin probably did too, but he's long dead. It's a complex issue with lots of stuff to make every side queasy (including the critics of Catholicism), so it rarely gets a fair analysis.

But, I think it's funny your willing to advance the idea that there are lot of wrongly convicted murderers and rapists in one thread, but the idea that some priests were wrongly accused is implausible.

It's possible that the father thought his son would be best provided for outside of the clutches of the imperialist American swine and their decadent, inhumane lifestyle.

Fine, then offer a third option. Costa Rica?

As a father, you want to do what's best for your kid, right? I think it's a real possibility Elian's dad, if given a free choice, would have thought he'd be better off in Miami.

Of course I would, but I don't think our government, even on its best day, has the right to remove a child from his only living parent short of direct evidence of wrongdoing by that parent.

It's probably not under-reported now. If you looked at that data 20 years ago, you probably would have found a rate of 0.3%, and it would have been grossly under-reported. But, with all the revelations, and publicity, and lawsuits, of the last decade, I'd imagine we've gotten a very good airing of the culprits. Not that every abused person came forward, but that most every abuser has been accused, given they likely abused multiple kids.

Perhaps. Either way, even if the data were 100% accurate, it still doesn't say what tfbg9 claimed. (Plus I haven't seen evidence of teacher's unions defending molesters the same way the Catholic Church protected them).

Of course I would, but I don't think our government, even on its best day, has the right to remove a child from his only living parent short of direct evidence of wrongdoing by that parent.

But, Elian wasn't living with his father to begin with. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been on the boat with his mother and her new boyfriend. It's not removing in that case.

And my solution allows the boy to stay with his father, wherever the father wants to live. I just refuse to be bullied by castro into offering a solution he can stomach.

But, I think it's funny your willing to advance the idea that there are lot of wrongly convicted murderers and rapists in one thread, but the idea that some priests were wrongly accused is implausible.

Well yeah. Priests are *weird.*

Perhaps. Either way, even if the data were 100% accurate, it still doesn't say what tfbg9 claimed. (Plus I haven't seen evidence of teacher's unions defending molesters the same way the Catholic Church protected them).

I've seen studies that show Priest abuse at a lower rate than other clergy, teachers, and the male population in general. I don't think it's 1/10th the rate.

There have been numerous cases aired recently where the union has prevented the firing of teachers credibly accused of sexual abuse, as well as other violent abuse, and even advocated their return to the classroom.

Well yeah. Priests are *weird.*

You should meet some. They're really not.

I've seen studies that show Priest abuse at a lower rate than other clergy, teachers, and the male population in general. I don't think it's 1/10th the rate.

I find this plausible, but I still haven't seen the studies, and they are not as easily Google-able as one would expect.

No, it's just true. When you get people trying to dredge up a bunch of 30 y.o. memories, you'll get some baseless accusations. Not to mention the scum who are just trying to cash in on the suffering of others.

And there's your new talking point. "[The Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests] is a menace to the Catholic Church."

I've seen studies that show Priest abuse at a lower rate than other clergy

It's the Cardinals who are the real sexual deviants! Not the baseball Cardinals though, those guys are adorable.

I've seen studies that show Priest abuse at a lower rate than other clergy, teachers, and the male population in general. I don't think it's 1/10th the rate.

All men but Bono will inevitably find what they're looking for, yes.

You should meet some. They're really not.

You're not fooling me. They've got those squirrely little priest eyes.

From the link in [113]

Turning the tables on an advocacy group that has long supported victims of pedophile priests, lawyers for the Roman Catholic Church and priests accused of sexual abuse in two Missouri cases have gone to court to compel the group to disclose more than two decades of e-mails that could include correspondence with victims, lawyers, whistle-blowers, witnesses, the police, prosecutors and journalists.
Related in Opinion

The group, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, known as SNAP, is neither a plaintiff nor a defendant in the litigation. But the group has been subpoenaed five times in recent months in Kansas City and St. Louis, and its national director, David Clohessy, was questioned by a battery of lawyers for more than six hours this year. A judge in Kansas City ruled that the network must comply because it “almost certainly” had information relevant to the case.

The network and its allies say the legal action is part of a campaign by the church to cripple an organization that has been the most visible defender of victims, and a relentless adversary, for more than two decades. “If there is one group that the higher-ups, the bishops, would like to see silenced,” said Marci A. Hamilton, a law professor at Yeshiva University and an advocate for victims of clergy sex crimes, “it definitely would be SNAP. And that’s what they’re going after. They’re trying to find a way to silence SNAP.”

Lawyers for the church and priests say they cannot comment because of a judge’s order. But William Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, a church advocacy group in New York, said targeting the network was justified because “SNAP is a menace to the Catholic Church.”

I find this plausible, but I still haven't seen the studies, and they are not as easily Google-able as one would expect.

Yes, it's surprisingly hard to find.

William Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights,

That character's like the Catholic version of Al Sharpton, and that's almost (but not quite) an insult to Sharpton.

That character's like the Catholic version of Al Sharpton, and that's almost (but not quite) an insult to Sharpton.

Well played.

Why on earth would Castro have agreed to anything in the Elian Gonzalez thing?

Castro doesn't give a ####. It's not like Clinton was going to lift the embargo. Clinton had nothing to offer Castro that he wanted. The Elian thing was a big deal in the media, but not so much in Cuba. Castro could do whatever he wanted. That's like, the whole point of being a dictator.

Yeah, Snapper, I'd need to see actual information on the number of school teachers who sexually abuse minors before I can even really take tfbg9's statement seriously. Part of that is that there's been a number of situations where the Church has actively protected pedophile priests by shifting them from position to position while being aware about the alleged abuse whereas there's no similar sized situations for teachers. And that's totally ignoring other very big problems the Church has had in the US around sexual propriety, like the practice that existed until about 25-30 years ago the Catholic Church would steal children from mothers because of a moral judgment about the mother, whereas I'm not aware of a similar overarching situation in the US. Of course, part of that is that the Catholic Church is a single organization whereas school districts are much more autonomous so culpability can only rise so high up the chain in the latter.

As for Cuba, saying that a very real and very serious embargo that prevents US based companies from doing significant business there and US citizens from potentially traveling to a gorgeous island only 90 miles from the US is not a major impact upon the country is clearly inaccurate. It's simply ineffective policy, and it's especially silly because we're perfectly happy to do business with other anti-US dictators like Chavez when there isn't a political beach ball to whack around.

Lastly, as someone who's worked in both immigration and asylum law, the law is pretty clear that the kid should have gone back to his father under the legal principles at play. In a comparable scenario, would we have refused to return a child arriving in similar situations to a parent in Haiti? Venezuela? El Salvador? Where do we draw that line? Part of the reason I respect the Gonzalez decision is because it was the politically hard thing to do, and doing the politically hard thing is necessary if you want to have the rule of law mean anything. Our current AG and President seem to have learned the wrong lesson from this case.

PS: Whoever referred to Saudi Arabia as a benevolent tyrant... I'm hoping that was a joke. If you're looking for proximate causes debilitating the Arab Spring's more democratic impulses you don't have to look far beyond Riyadh for one of the more influential ones. And given that the monarchy's control of their populace is largely bought by pandering to reactionaries while buying off anyone who might get upset about the lack of opportunity, or imprisoning and torturing them if they can't be bought, it's not vastly different from how a bunch of Latin American or really any dictatorship works.

Didn't expect that to be such a long post.

before I can even really take tfbg9's statement seriously

If memory serves (he's been on "ignore" ever since he posted some hysterical screed a couple of years ago about the church being the bestestest human endeavor in the history of forEVAR; I decided then that I was dealing with some specimen of sheep rather than a thinking human being, & that's not what I come here for), asking that guy to pass along anything even remotely objective & even-handed about the church would be like asking me to pass along something even remotely objective & even-handed about Ronald Reagan.

Not gonna happen.

As a father, you want to do what's best for your kid, right? I think it's a real possibility Elian's dad, if given a free choice, would have thought he'd be better off in Miami.

Anything's possible. I just don't see why anyone in the U.S. has the right to act in loco parentis when the parens is right there.

And the U.S. certainly does not have the policy that anyone, adult or child, who comes from a dictatorship can show up in the U.S. and be granted residency. Cuba is a bit of an exception for various political reasons, but it's not like we have a general 'take in all the refugees' policy.

If there were any evidence that Elián, specifically, would be persecuted upon return to Cuba (e.g. a situation such as returning a Jewish kid to a parent in Nazi Germany), that's a different issue. But I don't believe we have a right to effectively kidnap children from parents who live in dictatorships.

If both Elián's parents had died at sea, so that the competing claims were between, say, a grandmother in Cuba and a great-uncle in Florida, that's a harder issue. Depends on what the laws of legal guardianship are in each country.

If memory serves (he's been on "ignore" ever since he posted some hysterical screed a couple of years ago about the church being the bestestest human endeavor in the history of forEVAR), asking that guy to pass along anything even remotely objective & even-handed about the church would be like asking me to pass along something even remotely objective & even-handed about Ronald Reagan.

That's why I prefer to defer to well-known and widely-published theologians like Jack Chick.

If there were any evidence that Elián, specifically, would be persecuted upon return to Cuba (e.g. a situation such as returning a Jewish kid to a parent in Nazi Germany), that's a different issue. But I don't believe we have a right to effectively kidnap children from parents who live in dictatorships.

If both Elián's parents had died at sea, so that the competing claims were between, say, a grandmother in Cuba and a great-uncle in Florida, that's a harder issue. Depends on what the laws of legal guardianship are in each country.

Well, I think the point was that the mother and her boyfriend were already taking him away from his father, and to the US. If she survives to reach the US with him, it's probably a non-issue. But, the mother, who apparently had custody, had already determined that it was best for Elian to go to the US (even at great risk).

It's the Cardinals who are the real sexual deviants! Not the baseball Cardinals though, those guys are adorable.

:)

Well yeah. Priests are *weird.*

You should meet some. They're really not.

Yes they are most definitely weird, some are weird in a good way, some in a bad way and some in a way that's neither good weird or bad weird, but RC Priests are most definitely weird.

Appropos of nothing, I play poker every other week with a guy who was the Miami Chief of Police during the EG affair. He authorized the Miami PD to co-operate with the Feds, against the wishes of the mayor, and was promptly fired for it. He says in retrospect, it was the best thing that ever happened to him (the firing that is). Allowed him to retire and move to the Keys full time 3-4 years ahead of schedule.

To give you some sense of this my father and my aunt spent a good portion of Easter dinner discussing how they would design the rebuilt house they would put on my great-uncle's farm. Deep down I think they realize that that is the sort of dreaming one does when playing the lottery but at the same time if I can go back and build that house someday it would be incredibly meaningful to me as a way to preserve the legacy of my father and my grandparents.

I know nothing about Cuba at all, but what do they think happened to their property when they left? Same with the grandfather from earlier in the thread. Do they assume that their property is still there, in the same condition as when they left, completely unused? Is this realistic? My assumption would be that the government seized the land and either developed it (yes, I know about the state of the country) or sold it to someone else. In other words, like stolen art, there are probably multiple claims on the property. If someone left in 1968, it seems like someone else may have bought the land, built on it, had kids, possibly died and left it to the kids, etc.

Or is it pretty much just sitting there waiting for the rightful owners?

I know nothing about Cuba at all, but what do they think happened to their property when they left? Same with the grandfather from earlier in the thread. Do they assume that their property is still there, in the same condition as when they left, completely unused? Is this realistic? My assumption would be that the government seized the land and either developed it (yes, I know about the state of the country) or sold it to someone else. In other words, like stolen art, there are probably multiple claims on the property. If someone left in 1968, it seems like someone else may have bought the land, built on it, had kids, possibly died and left it to the kids, etc.

They'll return Cuban property to the former owners in the same way that American slaves were compensated for their stolen labor, in the same way that the Jews of Germany were all given back their confiscated banks and department stores, and in the same way that the Palestinians uprooted by the state of Israel will be given back the land they lost in 1948. You can only turn the clock back so far.

I would have to ask my grandparents to be sure, but I'm highly skeptical that they ever held any sort of hope for reclaiming their property in Russia after they fled for the United States. Lord knows that topic has never come up during my years of eating dinner at their house in Miami.

They'll return Cuban property to the former owners in the same way that American slaves were compensated for their stolen labor, in the same way that the Jews of Germany were all given back their confiscated banks and department stores, and in the same way that the Palestinians uprooted by the state of Israel will be given back the land they lost in 1948. You can only turn the clock back so far.

No, but many of the Miami Cuban seem to have the same unrealistic mindset as many Palestinian refugees- we are going to get our specific property back no matter what dammit!

You do see every now and then a country try to take property from group A (who allegedly stole same from group B X number of years ago) to give "back" to group B- as in Mugabe's Zimbabwe, such efforts generally serve as demonstrations of the old maxim that two wrongs do not make a right.

snapper, I took a few more minutes and looked at the Shakeshaft report. A few interesting points:

1. 9.6% of public high school students claim to have been victims of sexual misconduct by an "educator". 6.7% of them were victims of actual contact, whereas the rest were victims of harassing comments, etc. but no actual contact.

2. Of those, 18% reported that they were victims of a full-time teacher and 13% were victims of a substitute teacher. The other 69% were victims of either coaches, bus drivers, security guards, teacher's aides, principals, counselors, or other school employees.

I'm not trying to prove anything with this data, but it is quite a leap from there to the claims made earlier in this thread. Basically it means that 1.2% of students claim to have been victims of sexual contact from their full-time teachers.

No, but many of the Miami Cuban seem to have the same unrealistic mindset as many Palestinian refugees- we are going to get our specific property back no matter what dammit!

Yeah, that's what I figured. I can't imagine someone holding onto this thought after 50 years.

do any of these type of conflicts last longer than three generations? hasn't it quieted down in ireland mostly because the conflicts there had gotten so old that the principals had died out and the successive generations had less and less invested in the conflict?

cuba seems even now to be too much of a fresh wound. as mentioned upthread, it seems like the entire generation that lived through the upheaval needs to disappear before a sober solution presents itself. same with palestine, though the memories seem to be longer and more complex over there.

snapper, I took a few more minutes and looked at the Shakeshaft report. A few interesting points:

1. 9.6% of public high school students claim to have been victims of sexual misconduct by an "educator". 6.7% of them were victims of actual contact, whereas the rest were victims of harassing comments, etc. but no actual contact.

2. Of those, 18% reported that they were victims of a full-time teacher and 13% were victims of a substitute teacher. The other 69% were victims of either coaches, bus drivers, security guards, teacher's aides, principals, counselors, or other school employees.

I'm not trying to prove anything with this data, but it is quite a leap from there to the claims made earlier in this thread. Basically it means that 1.2% of students claim to have been victims of sexual contact from their full-time teachers.

Yes, but that's because schools don't have a tyrannical organization like SNAP exerting enormous pressure on them, driving them towards self-destructive behavior.

They'll return Cuban property to the former owners in the same way that American slaves were compensated for their stolen labor, in the same way that the Jews of Germany were all given back their confiscated banks and department stores, and in the same way that the Palestinians uprooted by the state of Israel will be given back the land they lost in 1948. You can only turn the clock back so far.

No, but many of the Miami Cuban seem to have the same unrealistic mindset as many Palestinian refugees- we are going to get our specific property back no matter what dammit!

It's hard not to feel sympathy for the non-corrupt members of both of those groups who had their property confiscated, but it's also rather clear that they'd find better odds playing the lottery.

before I can even really take tfbg9's statement seriously

Like gef, I keep teabag on ignore. He is a Joey class troll and not worth reading, much less responding to.

That's why I prefer to defer to well-known and widely-published theologians like Jack Chick.

I discovered Chick's weirdo pamphlets, IIRC, while attending the Southern Baptist youth camp in NW Arkansas (in Siloam Springs, home of John Brown University, where IIRC Wally Moon used to coach ... there's every good chance, though, that I'm completely imagining that) when I was 11 or 12. I think they were for sale in the little bookstore, which is sort of discomforting, but whatever. (They also had, & I bought, some kids' book about unlikely baseball feats that I swear I saw referenced here not too long ago, but I can't recall the title or author; the cover, memory tells me, showed a catcher waiting to receive a ball dropped from the top of the Washington Monument or some such.)

Every now & then I find one lying around somewhere & take it home. They're ... entertaining. Two nonfiction books on the Chick pamphlets are on my Amazon Wish List. I gather, from a mention by a Facebook friend who's planning to use it in a class tomorrow on Chick & Art Spiegelman(!), that a documentary exists as well.

MLB.com headline for the Marlins' victory tonight:

"Offensive animal Omar enjoys Anibal kingdom."

also:

"Four! In search of win, Yankees are Masters"

do any of these type of conflicts last longer than three generations? hasn't it quieted down in ireland mostly because the conflicts there had gotten so old that the principals had died out and the successive generations had less and less invested in the conflict?

Oh man yes they do. In part because people have tended to pick at the scabs in ### for tat escalations that lead to fresh bad blood. I'm not by any means an expert on Northern Ireland but a big part of it is the renouncing of violence by both sides in the 1990s. Only once you stop the bleeding are you going to be able to start healing. By comparison, the regular violence between Palestinians and Israelis results in fresh bad blood that just reopens the old wounds that otherwise might fade.

also:

"Four! In search of win, Yankees are Masters"

That sounds like the combination of MLB.com's prosperity and the Washington Post's financial woes have resulted in a salary dump with frightening implications for mlb.com's future. If that's what it is, look for many more incoherent headlines to come.

t-i-t should not be nannied, dangit.

Good grief. "Teat for tat" would sound ridiculous. "Boob for tat" is no better.

And yet I can say titties?

Ozzie suspended for 5 games. Loria proves himself yet again to be a sackless quisling.

And yet I can say titties?

I'll have some of what he's having.

Good grief. "Teat for tat" would sound ridiculous. "Boob for tat" is no better.

I wonder if you could say ### for ####?

[Edit - I guess not!]

My problem in all this is the pundits hand-wringing. I understand he alienated some of his fanbase, and the Marlins can run their business any way they want.

Now, if it were MLB that suspended him, I'd have a problem.

do any of these type of conflicts last longer than three generations? hasn't it quieted down in ireland mostly because the conflicts there had gotten so old that the principals had died out and the successive generations had less and less invested in the conflict?

Oh man yes they do.

The Serbs wanted to re-fight the Battle of Kosovo for 600+ years
More seriously, the Yugoslav break up wars were very nearly a continuation of the Balkan Wars of 1912-13 with some score settling related to WWII conduct thrown in for good measure.

One flashpoint of the "troubles" in Northern Ireland was the Unionists (Protestant/Orangemen) continued insistence upon marching through Catholic neighborhoods to commemorate the Battle of the Boyne (1690)- an analog would be I suppose if Northerners traveled to Vicksburg* every July 4, marched in Union Regalia and maybe hung a few rebels in effigy while they were at it. Sure we northerners would have a constitutional right to do that, but what good can come of what essentially amounts to institutionalized taunting?

*It's a poor analog, the losers in the Battle of the Boyne had a good and legitimate cause- the losers at Vicksburg, not so much.

How ####### stupid. Just what percentage of the Marlins' paying customer base does frothingly insane Cuban expatriates account for?

n analog would be I suppose if Northerners traveled to Vicksburg* every July 4, marched in Union Regalia and maybe hung a few rebels in effigy while they were at it.

I'm no Civil War scholar, but from my understanding of what happened in Vicksburg a commemorative bombardment from the Mississippi would be more appropriate.

Just what percentage of the Marlins' paying customer base does frothingly insane Cuban expatriates account for?

About 20%.

frothingly insane Cuban expatriates

I don't really think this representation of those involved denotes a level-headed view of the situation.

I don't really think this representation of those involved denotes a level-headed view of the situation.

Probably true. The moderate ones are probably just slaveringly insane.

Christ, if I were Ozzie I'd be strongly tempted to tell Loria to take his job and shove it. This trumps every overreaction to an impromptu comment I've ever seen.

*It's a poor analog, the losers in the Battle of the Boyne had a good and legitimate cause- the losers at Vicksburg, not so much.

Yes. James II was the rightful king of England. His protestant subjects rebelled against him and installed a foreign usurper. The Royal Navy committed high treason en masse, refusing to block the Dutch crossing.

I laugh when the British claim never to have been invaded since 1066. 1688 was an invasion, complete with Dutch occupying troops.

Plus the English treatment of Catholics (Irish, English and Scots) from 1600-1775 ranks as far worse than anything the Spanish Inquisition thought up on their worst day. Unfortunately, the WASPs wrote our history books in the US.

"like the practice that existed until about 25-30 years ago the Catholic Church would steal children from mothers because of a moral judgment about the mother"

Can you provide link or source regarding this practice being common in the USA? A quick search I did finds references to Spain and UK, but nothing regarding the USA.