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Wednesday, April 23, 2014

Michael Pineda ejected from Red Sox game after pine tar discovered on neck

No pine tar barren episode here.

Yankee pitcher Michael Pineda was ejected from his start against the Red Sox Wednesday night after umpires checked him for a foreign substance at the request of Boston manager John Farrell.

Pineda could face a suspension from Major League Baseball, especially since Joe Torre, MLB’s VP of baseball operations, talked to Yankee GM Brian Cashman after Pineda was spotted with a similar substance on his palm during his last start against the Red Sox on April 10.

Pineda obviously had a brown goop on his neck at the start of the second inning Wednesday. In his previous start against Boston, Pineda had a similar substance on his right palm, but the Red Sox never protested.

Repoz Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:29 PM | 197 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: red sox, yankees

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   1. salajander Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:36 PM (#4692686)
Man, what an idiot.
   2. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:46 PM (#4692698)
That his catcher is The Defender Of All That Is Good and Holy In Baseball makes this a pretty fun story.
   3. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:52 PM (#4692705)
Man, what an idiot.

I believe you meant "watta nidiot"
   4. Pleasant Nate (Upgraded from 'Nate') Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:52 PM (#4692706)
McCann will learn the Yankee ways, Robert.
   5. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: April 23, 2014 at 08:58 PM (#4692713)
Hope the Sox starters are happy staying off the tar for the next few series against the Yanks.
   6. I am the Can Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:02 PM (#4692714)
It seems impossible that this could have happened after all the coverage it got last time. I'm a Yankee fan, and even I think the team - not just Pineda - should probably face some sort of punishment for not doing due diligence on this. (I'm only half serious about that, but it's a very serious half!) This is absolutely idiotic and almost unfathomable.
   7. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:06 PM (#4692718)
I wonder if Pineda hangs out with J.R. Smith in his free time...
   8. SteveF Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:08 PM (#4692721)
Technically doesn't Pineda mean 'pine forest?' Couldn't he just make the argument he was leaking sap?
   9. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:25 PM (#4692731)
yetta nudder example of brain-dead carribeans?
   10. Walt Davis Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:26 PM (#4692733)
April 10: Pineda shuts down Red Sox while (probably) using pine tar.
April 17: MLB receives letter of complaint from George Mitchell.
April 23: Pineda ejected from start against Red Sox for the use of pine tar.
   11. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:29 PM (#4692736)
Why is Pineda an "idiot" as opposed to a cheater?

Because "everyone does it"? How many everyones is "everyone"? Because "everyone" was using steroids, also.

Because many players "accept" that it is not cheating? Many players "accepted" that steroids wasn't cheating as well.

Because pitchers don't "hide" it? But that's false. I don't see pitchers broadcasting that they're using pine tar.

Because it's not "against the rules"? False again.

Because pine tar "has no effect"? Is that true? Then why use it? To get a better grip? Is the argument that pine tar is "restorative," that it simply "restores" a pitcher to the grip he would naturally have? But that makes no sense.
   12. The District Attorney Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:31 PM (#4692740)
He was just taking the Wu-Tang Clan's advice.
   13. Jim Furtado Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:33 PM (#4692745)
He's an idiot because the use was so blatant that there was no way it wouldn't be an issue. His team had to go to the pen early, which impacts more than this game. EVERYBODY in baseball said it wasn't a big deal. It's on the books, though, so having a huge smear on his neck that's clearly visible on camera just makes it impossible to ignore.
   14. Urkel's Boner Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:37 PM (#4692750)
He also was widely accused along with damning photographs in his previous start against this very same opponent two weeks ago.
   15. bobm Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:38 PM (#4692752)
Why is Pineda an "idiot" as opposed to a cheater?

FTFE:

Pineda could face a suspension from Major League Baseball, especially since Joe Torre, MLB’s VP of baseball operations, talked to Yankee GM Brian Cashman after Pineda was spotted with a similar substance on his palm during his last start against the Red Sox on April 10.
   16. eddieot Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:39 PM (#4692754)
HDTV has changed the game. This went on all the time before 1080p arrived. I would not be surprised if every team had an intern whose job was to watch the broadcast and look for signs of this type of thing. Also a great way to ID pitchers who are tipping their pitches.
   17. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:40 PM (#4692758)
Hope the Sox starters are happy staying off the tar for the next few series against the Yanks.


Yeah, notice they didn't check Pineda when Theon Greyjoy Gunkhair McGee Clay Buchholz was on the mound.

But what 1, 6, and 13 said. He made a very poor decision of having it blatantly on his neck. There's usually a wink and a nod between MLB and the pitchers about this rule, but you're not allowed to flaunt it... especially when you were flaunting it just two weeks earlier against the same team.

eta: And what 14 and 15 said.
   18. Gamingboy Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:48 PM (#4692768)
10-game autosuspension for this, right?
   19. Danny Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:51 PM (#4692775)
Cafardo in the Boston Globe last year:
A little pine tar never hurt anyone, whether it’s a hitter trying to get a good grip on his bat or a pitcher using a little to grip a baseball, especially in a climate like Colorado. What we’ve come to find is teams don’t care about pine tar or rosin. The only thing they would have a problem with is baby oil or Vaseline or something that creates more movement in pitches.
   20. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:52 PM (#4692777)
Here's Derek Zumsteg, who literally wrote the book on cheating in baseball, discussing pine tar and pitchers in relation to the Kenny Rogers game:

Pine tar’s illegal. This is why you can’t admit you had pine tar on your hand. So the question “was he cheating?” is clearly yes. There have been many pitchers tossed out of games for having pine tar on their person.

But use of pine tar by pitchers is more of a long-tolerated practice, as long as they’re using it to get a better grip on the ball.

If Rogers was only using it to get a better grip in what were clearly difficult conditions to pitch in, this might be nit-picky. But LaRussa said his hitters complained of unusual movement. How would that have worked?

Any foreign substance on the ball affects its flight. A strategic scratch or artifically smooth surface (say, by coating the leather with Vaseline) can make the ball move a great deal. If you scuff a ball on the side and throw a normal fastball, the ball will move away from the scuffed side as it approaches the batter. This is the complaint of the Cardinal hitters: that Rogers was putting enough pine tar on the ball that it was moving more than it should have given a natural delivery.

...

I’ll argue the con side: if Rogers is doctoring balls, he can do it using clear substances, and he can better conceal them, or if he’s scuffing or trying to create more air resistance on one side by loading it with tar, there are a lot better, sneakier ways to go about this (there’s a huge section on this in the book, by the way). Running around with a big smear of pine tar on his hand is just asking to be caught.

The most likely explanation here is that Rogers was using pine tar to get a better grip on the ball in the poor conditions, and went without (or went to something else) after the umpires told him to clean it off. That’s not a huge deal, and certainly not enough to make his performance less impressive.

   21. Scott Ross Posted: April 23, 2014 at 09:54 PM (#4692784)
YES just showed a split screen of Pineda with a clean neck in the first, when he gave up 2 runs on 4 hits, and then in the second all gunked up, when he got both batters he faced before the early shower.
   22. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:25 PM (#4692827)
Any team with an obvious cheater deserves to lose ...
   23. devo Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:45 PM (#4692842)
He was just taking the Wu-Tang Clan's advice.


While I agree that the Clan ain't nothing to #### with, I'm not sure how that's applicable to this particular situation.
   24. Rough Carrigan Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:46 PM (#4692845)
#16. It was perfectly obvious on my non-HD tv.
   25. Sonic Youk Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:50 PM (#4692849)
While I agree that the Clan ain't nothing to #### with, I'm not sure how that's applicable to this particular situation.
Pineda was protecting his neck?
   26. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 23, 2014 at 10:56 PM (#4692854)
YES just showed a split screen of Pineda with a clean neck in the first, when he gave up 2 runs on 4 hits, and then in the second all gunked up, when he got both batters he faced before the early shower.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
   27. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 23, 2014 at 11:19 PM (#4692870)
Hope the Sox starters are happy staying off the tar for the next few series against the Yanks.


What is hilarious is that we've had to endure whining and complaining from pitchers over hitters using steroids -- Brad Ziegler complained; Ryan Dempster threw at ARod -- and yet here the pitchers are basically cheating every game, every game breaking the rules.

On YES the announcers are saying that Pineda should have asked CC or someone else on the staff how best to conceal the pine tar. But if pitchers are illegally using pine tar because it helps them pitch better -- and if it gives them a better grip then it helps them pitch better and it's an advantage gotten illegally -- then under the rules established for steroids users pitchers using pine tar are cheating. (I love the tip-toeing that's occurring between "as long as he is only using it to get a better grip rather than to alter the flight of the ball it's not cheating. Oh? Some payers said they were only using steroids only to help them recover, but nobody seems to care about that distinction.)

If steroids is cheating -- especially pre-testing -- then this is.
   28. King Berenger Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:38 AM (#4692899)
#27 - Ray, following (ost of that logic, rosin bags shouldn't be allowed - the only apparent distinction between them and pine tar is that A) rosin is legal and pine tar isn't, and B) rosin is completely ineffective in cold weather and tar isn't. I'm not sure if a certain amount of rosin realistically has any effect on movement, but clearly the reason concealed pine tar is tolerated is because there's a consensus that it ISN'T affecting ball movement too much, and when it is - as with Kenny Rogers in your quote in 20 - people DO complain. And for the record, I also think people DO care about players who used the "only used it to recover" line - think of Andy Pettitte's reputation after revealing he used HGH for a bit versus, I don't know, Jason Giambi.

One wonders how common using pine tar, at least a bit, really is, besides just all this anecdotal evidence - because if Pineda's first inning was any indication, it suggests that without pine tar, he will be incredibly, or at least significantly more, ineffective in ANY cold weather situation, and surely Pineda is not in the minority in that regard. I don't want the fact that it's cold suddenly to mean that half of the pitchers in the league completely lose their effectiveness. That would be boring and uncompetitive. If that's the cost, pine tar away.
   29. Morty Causa Posted: April 24, 2014 at 01:33 AM (#4692908)
He's not the only one that has to shower. His foolish defenders are going to need to take a long, hot one to clean all the spooge off their faces.
   30. Buck Coats Posted: April 24, 2014 at 01:43 AM (#4692911)
A) rosin is legal and pine tar isn't


Well yeah, that is the difference. That's the difference between what's against the rules and what's not.

And for the record, I also think people DO care about players who used the "only used it to recover" line - think of Andy Pettitte's reputation after revealing he used HGH for a bit versus, I don't know, Jason Giambi.


It's sure done wonders for Mark McGwire
   31. DFA Posted: April 24, 2014 at 01:55 AM (#4692913)
I'm pretty sure my dad's favorite players used greenies, so I'm ok with Pineda's actions.
   32. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: April 24, 2014 at 01:56 AM (#4692914)
Of course it's cheating. It's pretty clear in the rules about foreign substances being on the ball. Just because everyone exceeds the speed limit doesn't make it legal, you are still breaking the law.
   33. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 24, 2014 at 07:10 AM (#4692927)
Maybe they should change the rule and allow the use of pine tar on days where the temperature or wind chill is under 50 degrees.
   34. villageidiom Posted: April 24, 2014 at 07:44 AM (#4692931)
Of course it's cheating. It's pretty clear in the rules about foreign substances being on the ball.
PEDANTRY MOMENT OF THE DAY

Pineda wasn't ejected for breaking rule 8.02(a)(4), applying a foreign substance to the ball. He was ejected for breaking rule 8.02(b), having a foreign substance on his person or in his possession.

THIS WAS YOUR PEDANTRY MOMENT OF THE DAY

10-game autosuspension for this, right?

...and this is the reason for the pedantry. 8.02(b) carries an automatic suspension, whereas 8.02(a) does not. (In the minors it's an automatic 10-game suspension. In the majors the suspension is not necessarily 10 games.)
   35. Lassus Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:09 AM (#4692940)
Boy, this thread is seriously serious.

I found it fascinating how he knew he was caught from the get-go, could see it on his face the whole time. He didn't even have any story set up to argue on, nor did Girardi.
   36. bunyon Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:19 AM (#4692944)
Terry Forster solved this by always having some maple syrup somewhere on his person.
   37. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:42 AM (#4692956)
Maybe they should change the rule and allow the use of pine tar on days where the temperature or wind chill is under 50 degrees.


Wind chill is a human phenomenon/measurement. It measures what the temperature "feels" like to a human in certain conditions. It has no relevance to an inanimate object. Besides, the issue is how dry the ball is which is affected by the humidity. What you need is some measure of the humidity including some factor for how much faster the wind may dry out the ball.
   38. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:59 AM (#4692970)
You need to get out of your mom's basement/lab and enjoy some fresh air.
   39. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: April 24, 2014 at 08:59 AM (#4692971)
and this is the reason for the pedantry. 8.02(b) carries an automatic suspension, whereas 8.02(a) does not. (In the minors it's an automatic 10-game suspension. In the majors the suspension is not necessarily 10 games.)


Though he'll probably get 10 games anyway.
   40. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:05 AM (#4692980)
10 games means he misses one start and has his second start pushed out 1 game.
   41. catomi01 Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:06 AM (#4692981)
Wind chill is a human phenomenon/measurement. It measures what the temperature "feels" like to a human in certain conditions. It has no relevance to an inanimate object. Besides, the issue is how dry the ball is which is affected by the humidity. What you need is some measure of the humidity including some factor for how much faster the wind may dry out the ball.


Or just change the rule to allow the use of pine tar - at its core it does the same thing as Rosin, only better in certain conditions...throw a pine tar rag next to the rosin bag, and give the umps authority (which they already have) to discard any ball they see as unusable because there is too much gunk on it, or the opposing team believes it is affecting the flight and movement of the ball.

I don't know how common it is, but when I worked in the Atlantic League all of the infielders (and some catchers) used to put pine tar directly on the pocket of their mitts - I doubt any ball that's used for more than a couple of pitches doesn't have some sort of foreign substance on it.
   42. Captain Supporter Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:11 AM (#4692986)
Much ado about nothing
   43. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:20 AM (#4692991)
Actually, I honestly wouldn't be opposed to allowing spitballs.
   44. with Glavinesque control and Madduxian poise Posted: April 24, 2014 at 09:24 AM (#4692998)
The biggest problem I have with allowing spitballs is that Maddux has already retired; I would've wanted to see what he could do in those circumstances.
   45. Publius Publicola Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:09 AM (#4693049)
Sutcliffe made an interesting comment last night. He said scuffing was much more effective than foreign substances in getting the ball to move and that if you could get away with it, he might stillb e pitching.

Another weird observation by he and Boone was they ddin't so much disagree with what he was doing but that he did it so blatantly.
   46. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:12 AM (#4693052)
10 games means he misses one start and has his second start pushed out 1 game.


Assuming that the Yankees have no off days during the suspension. The 10 game suspension might take 12 days.
   47. Nasty Nate Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:14 AM (#4693053)
Has there been any public comment since the game from Girardi or the Yankees?
   48. Digit Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:20 AM (#4693058)
One wonders how common using pine tar, at least a bit, really is, besides just all this anecdotal evidence - because if Pineda's first inning was any indication, it suggests that without pine tar, he will be incredibly, or at least significantly more, ineffective in ANY cold weather situation, and surely Pineda is not in the minority in that regard. I don't want the fact that it's cold suddenly to mean that half of the pitchers in the league completely lose their effectiveness. That would be boring and uncompetitive. If that's the cost, pine tar away.


Quite a bit more commonly than just cold weather, apparently:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cen1au

If cold weather's an excuse, then what's the excuse for using it in the Toronto Skydome?
   49. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:28 AM (#4693060)
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cen1au


Do you even link, bro?
   50. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:29 AM (#4693061)
Actually, I honestly wouldn't be opposed to allowing spitballs.


And I honestly wouldn't be opposed to allowing steroids and amps use.
   51. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:29 AM (#4693062)
Terry Forster solved this by always having some maple syrup somewhere on his person.


He was a fat tub of goo. He literally consisted of nothing but sticky foreign substance.
   52. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:33 AM (#4693063)
Has there been any public comment since the game from Girardi or the Yankees?


Girardi, Cashman and Pineda comments

I saw Girardi's post game comments last night. He didn't throw Pineda under the bus but he didn't really back him either. It sounded like Girardi was making sure Cashman and the Steinbrothers knew he wasn't aware that Pineda had the pine tar on.
   53. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:33 AM (#4693064)
Has there been any public comment since the game from Girardi or the Yankees?


Cashman said that he's embarrassed that the organization has been made to look bad -- and reading between the lines he didn't mean just due to Pine-da but also Girardi/Rothschild who shouldn't have had this happen on their watch.

Girardi essentially said Pine-da made a mistake and that it shouldn't have happened.

Of course, the "it" doesn't seem to be so much "cheating" but rather "cheating so obviously." Nobody is suggesting that Pine-da not cheat anymore; they're merely suggesting that he not be so dumb when he does it. Which, of course, drives the point home that steroids wasn't about "cheating" at all but was about records and holier than thou moral outrage.

   54. Digit Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:34 AM (#4693065)
Apparently I suck at it, bro. :D Sorry.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2cen1au.jpg
   55. Cat Named Manny Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:35 AM (#4693068)
Has there been any public comment since the game from Girardi or the Yankees?


Quite a bit in this NYTimes story:

“We’re scratching our head right now how that actually took place,” an exasperated Brian Cashman, the Yankees’ general manager, said after his team had lost, 5-1, at Fenway Park. “Clearly what took place in the second inning should not have taken place.”


“We are all embarrassed this has taken place,” Cashman said. “I think Michael is embarrassed, and we are embarrassed that somehow he took the field like that. It’s just a bad situation and clearly forced the opponent’s hand to do something I’m sure they didn’t want to do, but they had no choice but to do.”


Girardi said he could not blame Farrell for calling the substance to the umpire’s attention, and Cashman said he would want Girardi to do the same in a similar situation.

“He made an error in judgment,” Girardi said of Pineda, “and he’ll admit to that.”

Rothschild said he spoke to Pineda after the April 10 incident. Asked if he could have helped Pineda deal with the slippery ball in a different manner, Rothschild said, “What, you want me to show him how to cheat better?”


EDIT: Cokes all around!
   56. thetalkingmoose Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:36 AM (#4693069)
This is a perfect example of why I feel the uproar over PEDs in baseball is ludicrous. Apparently, some forms of cheating are "okay," so long as they are not blatant. And, if you are caught... well, it's nothing to get upset over. Joe Girardi made that rather clear:

"I'm not going to get mad at him," Girardi said. "The kid's doing the best he can, he's trying to compete. He feels bad, he feels like he let his teammates down. But as I said to Michael, 'Hey, this is a little bump, we'll get through this, we'll find a way to get through this and you'll be back pitching before you know it.'"


That's bovine fecal matter -- you can't get into a sanctimonious witch hunt over one form of cheating and make the argument that other forms are acceptable if they are done in the right way. If MLB wants me to take the PED issue seriously, then police and punish *all* forms of cheating exactly as described in the rules.
   57. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:40 AM (#4693073)
Girardi was hardly sanctimonious over PEDs. Girardi and the Yankees players were actually surprisingly supportive of A-Rod last year.
   58. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:41 AM (#4693075)
If MLB wants me to take the PED issue seriously, then police and punish *all* forms of cheating exactly as described in the rules.

Or they could simply amend their rules to allow pitchers to use pine tar, which apparently is what most of them already do when it becomes too cold for resin to be effective. But I guess that would be giving in to terrorists or something.
   59. thetalkingmoose Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:41 AM (#4693076)
BRPoC: I'm not referring to Girardi specifically. I am referring to the collective attitude of MLB, many writers, and a very vocal portion of its fans.

JOSNSGiO: I'm fine with that too, but until then, there are rules and they should be properly enforced.
   60. McCoy Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:42 AM (#4693077)
YES just showed a split screen of Pineda with a clean neck in the first, when he gave up 2 runs on 4 hits, and then in the second all gunked up, when he got both batters he faced before the early shower.

Clearly he suffers from the Jethro syndrome.
   61. Nasty Nate Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:44 AM (#4693079)
Thanks guys.
   62. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:45 AM (#4693082)
So Jesus Montero popped for PEDs, Pineda for pine tar, I imagine Hector Noesi has probably been gambling on baseball this entire time.
   63. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:45 AM (#4693083)
Or they could simply amend their rules to allow pitchers to use pine tar, which apparently is what most of them already do when it becomes too cold for resin to be effective. But I guess that would be giving in to terrorists or something.


I think the problem with pine tar is that it's too easy to put a small spot of it on the ball, which will change the movement of the pitch. Resin doesn't really have the same problem, unless mixed with something else (which is illegal).
   64. tfbg9 Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:48 AM (#4693088)
Next time, check with the pitching coach, Meat? OK?

   65. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:56 AM (#4693100)
Or they could simply amend their rules to allow pitchers to use pine tar, which apparently is what most of them already do when it becomes too cold for resin to be effective. But I guess that would be giving in to terrorists or something.

I think the problem with pine tar is that it's too easy to put a small spot of it on the ball, which will change the movement of the pitch. Resin doesn't really have the same problem, unless mixed with something else (which is illegal).


And yet if you believe nearly all the comments that were made in the aftermath of the first Pineda incident, the only apparent difference between Pineda this time and the vast majority of pitchers is that he was caught. You can't retroactively absolve Pineda for last night's infraction, but given the realities of the existing use of pine tar by in cold weather by most pitchers, you have to wonder what the point is of keeping a rule in place that in practice punishes only pitchers who are "too obvious about it".
   66. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 10:58 AM (#4693103)
Players suspended for having a foreign substance/doctoring the ball:

Joel Peralta
Phil Niekro
Gaylord Perry
Jay Howell
Kevin Gross
Brian Moehler

Who else?
   67. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:01 AM (#4693110)
And yet if you believe nearly all the comments that were made in the aftermath of the first Pineda incident, the only apparent difference between Pineda this time and the vast majority of pitchers is that he was caught.


Welcome to the "only apparent difference" between ARod, Palmeiro, Manny, and all the uncaught steroids users.
   68. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:01 AM (#4693112)
Who else?


Rick Honeycutt.
   69. Ron J2 Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:04 AM (#4693114)
#66 Joe Niekro, not Phil
   70. asinwreck Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:17 AM (#4693127)
The Rick Honeycutt story is pretty funny.
When pitching for the Mariners against the Royals on Sept. 30, 1980, Honeycutt taped a thumbtack to his finger to cut the ball. Willie Wilson, after hitting a double, spotted the tack from second base. When the umps came out to have a look, they not only found the tack, but also a gash in Honeycutt's forehead -- he had rubbed his face absentmindedly, almost poking his eye out in the process.

"I should have known right then that it wasn't going to work," he later said. "It didn't do anything for me. I didn't know what I was doing at the time. I only did it once and I did it badly and got caught at it. I was really struggling at the time. We were getting ready to go out onto the field, and I passed a bulletin board and there was a tack in it. I put it on the middle finger of my glove hand." Honeycutt was ejected, suspended for 10 games, and fined $250.

Yep, that's the Dodgers' pitching coach.
   71. bunyon Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:18 AM (#4693128)
The biggest problem I have with allowing spitballs is that Maddux has already retired; I would've wanted to see what he could do in those circumstances.

If they legalized the spitball today, Maddux would win the 2015 Cy Young. /fanboy
   72. Ron J2 Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:19 AM (#4693129)
Dave Danforth was as far as I know the first guy to be disciplined for doctoring the ball in the wake of the 1920 rule change.

He faced near constant accusations, and in 1922 he was suspended by the league (after being tossed from a game for throwing a ball with "loaded seams" -- Danforth knew every form of trick pitch -- indeed he invented a few. The shine ball and the emmery ball for instance) and then sent to the minors by the Browns. Given that they finished a game out and Danforth was a pretty decent pitcher, there's a chance this cost the Browns the pennant.

EDIT: accusations in the minors and majors and complaints about him predate the 1920 rule change.
   73. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:36 AM (#4693146)
And yet if you believe nearly all the comments that were made in the aftermath of the first Pineda incident, the only apparent difference between Pineda this time and the vast majority of pitchers is that he was caught.

Welcome to the "only apparent difference" between ARod, Palmeiro, Manny, and all the uncaught steroids users.


Gee, Ray, you left out all the times Lou Gehrig got away with gobbling goat testicles. Is this a sign of mellowing?
   74. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:45 AM (#4693154)
Your position seems inconsistent. If steroids use is cheating, why is this not?
   75. Morty Causa Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:49 AM (#4693158)
I could just research it, I guess, but I'm feeling lazy today. Why wasn't Danforth grandfathered in 1920? And, according to SABR's bio, complaints about him doctoring the ball dogged him before 1920. Apparently, even before1920, pitchers couldn't just do anything they wanted to the ball. If I ever knew about all this, I've forgotten it.
   76. Dan Posted: April 24, 2014 at 11:53 AM (#4693161)
Wouldn't the best solution to the whole grip issue be to rub the balls down with some kind of slightly tacky substance instead of mud? Then they could strictly police foreign substances since nobody would have an excuse for using them anymore. That seems like a far better solution than sticking a pine tar rag on the mound.

Or even just do what they do in NPB:

In Japan, a new baseball is a thing of beauty, honoring the country's regard for packaging aesthetics as well as the sport. Each ball is wrapped in a shiny square of silver foil, which preserves the leather's tackiness. Unlike major league baseballs, which need to be rubbed with a special mud to be deemed game-ready, a Japanese baseball is used immediately after it is unpackaged. It is a man-made pearl. Its built-in tackiness plays to the high art of pitching—the veneration of touch, feel and spin and those who master the craft.


Source
   77. Ron J2 Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:11 PM (#4693175)
#75 I suspect Danforth wasn't grandfathered because there were only a limited number of pitchers who were grandfathered and Danforoth was in the minors in 1920.

And yeah there were constant complaints about Danforth. His position was something close to, if it's not explicitly forbidden let's see if it's effective. He was constantly experimenting, and an awful lot of people felt that what he was doing should not be permitted.
   78. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:15 PM (#4693180)
The team captain has nothing to say about Piñeda's actions? Funny that.
   79. Danny Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:27 PM (#4693191)
Players suspended for having a foreign substance/doctoring the ball:

Joel Peralta
Phil Niekro
Gaylord Perry
Jay Howell
Kevin Gross
Brian Moehler

Who else?

Brendan Donnelly.
   80. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:32 PM (#4693197)
76/Dan - I've long (always?) thought that we should take the NPB approach here...
   81. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:35 PM (#4693199)
Your position seems inconsistent. If steroids use is cheating, why is this not?

I didn't say it wasn't cheating, and I didn't say that Pineda shouldn't be punished for being caught. I said that the rule should be removed going forward, just as some people have said that the rules against PEDs should be done away with.
   82. Greg K Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:39 PM (#4693203)
Why is Pineda an "idiot" as opposed to a cheater?

For me, Pineda's an idiot because he cheated in a really obvious way. As in, he cheated fairly obviously very recently and got away with it with just a "whoops, I'll just wash that off, sorry". Of all major league pitchers he had to figure he was the one people were going to keep a closest eye on.

The steroid equivalent would be if Jhonny Peralta live-tweeted his purchase and use of steroids this week. Cheating is one thing, but hiding it poorly is bad form.
   83. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:48 PM (#4693207)
The team captain has nothing to say about Piñeda's actions? Funny that.


I'm sure he's utterly exhausted from all the ... uh ... adulation he's been undergoing.
   84. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:48 PM (#4693208)
Wouldn't the best solution to the whole grip issue be to rub the balls down with some kind of slightly tacky substance instead of mud? Then they could strictly police foreign substances since nobody would have an excuse for using them anymore. That seems like a far better solution than sticking a pine tar rag on the mound.


Dumb physics question; would this have the effect of reducing offense? Would a ball stay on the bat longer and thus not travel as far because of the sticky stuff? I'm talking milliseconds not some comical outcome but something which would reduce distances by 10-20 feet at a pop.

I'm probably being ridiciulous with this concern but it's the first thing that popped into my head.
   85. Publius Publicola Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:48 PM (#4693210)
The team captain has nothing to say about Piñeda's actions? Funny that.


I loved the way he dropped his head after the "You're gone" sign was given.

I also loved the way he dropped the ball on several opportunities for easy outs.
   86. Morty Causa Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:52 PM (#4693215)
Like I said on the previous thread, even though the powers that be decided not to officially punish him, I bet they gave him some unofficial advice to either cut out the cheating or to start doing it better. Looks like that's what happened, and, like a lot of cheaters he was too inebriated with his hubris to give a doggone.
   87. Publius Publicola Posted: April 24, 2014 at 12:54 PM (#4693218)
Dumb physics question; would this have the effect of reducing offense?


Hmm. Not a physicist but my thinking is the added retention of ball on the bat because of hydrostatic forces would neutralize the hydrostatic bonds themselves. IOW, the ball staying on the bat longer would increase compression/resilience, causing the ball to jump more once the hydrostatic bonds resolved as the ball leaves the bat. Though the effect of either would be minimal.
   88. PepTech Posted: April 24, 2014 at 01:02 PM (#4693225)
Why is Pineda an "idiot" as opposed to a cheater?
For me, Pineda's an idiot because he cheated in a really obvious way. As in, he cheated fairly obviously very recently and got away with it with just a "whoops, I'll just wash that off, sorry". Of all major league pitchers he had to figure he was the one people were going to keep a closest eye on.

The steroid equivalent would be if Jhonny Peralta live-tweeted his purchase and use of steroids this week. Cheating is one thing, but hiding it poorly is bad form.


Actually, the equivalent would be if he dropped trou and injected his cheek on the on-deck circle. Even Ray would have to admit that would be idiotic. :)
I also loved the way he dropped the ball on several opportunities for easy outs.
Yeah, the one that went off his glove *and* between his legs was somehow scored as a hit. In Fenway. The sooner he pulls a hammy and ends this fiasco the better.
----------------
Incidentally, Ray, this is a prime example of one of your more frustrating memes. Pineda is an idiot *and* a cheater, and I don't think anyone here disagrees with that. Your statement of and subsequent righteousness over the "opposed to" clause that you alone inserted is hilaripus.
   89. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: April 24, 2014 at 01:19 PM (#4693233)
Jeter lies, who dies?!
   90. Sunday silence Posted: April 24, 2014 at 01:57 PM (#4693274)
we should have a guessing contest as to Jeter's last day in the field.
   91. Sunday silence Posted: April 24, 2014 at 02:06 PM (#4693287)
Which, of course, drives the point home that steroids wasn't about "cheating" at all but was about records and holier than thou moral outrage.


I dont really get this one. If the batting statistics in the 90s hadnt soared would anybody have complained or even found out?

You dont seem very consistent when making these sort of statements. On the other thread you were insisting that if you cannot measure something, then there is no proof it exists. So the question is: if batting stats hadnt changed measurably during the 90s would there by any problem with steroids? Would it even be cheating if it didnt improve your batting and or pitching?
   92. Gonfalon B. Posted: April 24, 2014 at 02:34 PM (#4693316)
we should have a guessing contest as to Jeter's last day in the field.

Jeter's last day as a fielder? I'll go with July 9, 2007.
   93. Ron J2 Posted: April 24, 2014 at 02:48 PM (#4693339)
#91 People didn't complain when batting stats soared in the 90s. And best I can tell PEDs had between zip and very little to do with the increase in scoring.

Oh you'd hear the odd "steroids" chants to Canseco, but that pre-dated the offensive explosion. The first real PED story was McGwire/Andro and it was pretty nasty toward the reporter who opened the issue. The first real PED backlash started with the Bonds giant head BS. Then BALCO broke.

To believe that steroids drove the offensive increases of sillyball you really have to believe a number of things.

First the the number of steroid users was declining in the early 90s (I don't sispute that steroids and serious weight training hit MLB more or less simultaneously. I do seriously doubt the number of users was ever in decline)

Second, there had to be a massive increase in the number of hitters using in 1993, a second surge in 1993, after which the numbers remained broadly constant

Third, that Frank Thomas is a user. He's the only guy who shows up near the top of the list of increase in HR per balls in play from 1992 to 1993 as well as the top of the list in decrease in HR per balls in play once testing was introduced.

You also have to believe that steroids are more performance enhancing for hitters than pitchers (or that hitters were substantially more likely to use PEDs, and from what we can tell from the list of known users that does not appear to be the case.
   94. tfbg9 Posted: April 24, 2014 at 03:00 PM (#4693352)
Sterling and Suzy on The Fan are awesome as they promise Swift Yankee Vengeance, after Farrell's Cowardly Outrage (at the 2:30 mark):

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2014_04_23_nyamlb_bosmlb_1&mode=video

The other 3 broadcast teams; Sox TV, Sox radio, and Yankees TV were reasonable in their reactions. Not Baggy Pants and His Sidekick.
   95. The Polish Sausage Racer Posted: April 24, 2014 at 03:01 PM (#4693354)
If MLB wants me to take the PED issue seriously


If MLB wanted me to take the PED issue seriously, the MLB Radio Network on Sirius wouldn't have ads for HGH every other commercial. Apparently PEDs are a problem in baseball only if MLB isn't making some cash off them directly.
   96. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: April 24, 2014 at 03:11 PM (#4693366)
There's a league of guys who play 1865 base ball rules around here, and one player calls himself "Pine Tar".

He actually hit on my wife a little bit via Facebook.

So the headline made me think of him caught occupying Pineda's neck, which is kind of strange.
   97. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 24, 2014 at 03:11 PM (#4693369)
10 games suspension. It's in the books.
   98. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: April 24, 2014 at 03:25 PM (#4693392)
4/24/2014 Sabathia
4/25/2014 Kuroda
4/26/2014 Tanaka
4/27/2014 Nuno (would have been Pineda - Nuno would have been skipped on the off day)
4/28/2014 OFF DAY
4/29/2014 Sabathia
4/30/2014 Kuroda
5/1/2014 Tanaka
5/2/2014 Nuno (would have been Pineda)
5/3/2014 Phelps (would have been Nuno)
5/4/2014 Sabathia

So the Yankees have to replace two Pineda starts with a start by Nuno and a start by Phelps.

Dumbass.
   99. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 24, 2014 at 03:32 PM (#4693401)
Dumbass.


There's a significant chance he re-injures his shoulder anyway. I don't think you can count on him to be both healthy and effective for the whole year. In fact, missing a couple of starts probably is the best thing for him health-wise anyway.

   100. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: April 24, 2014 at 04:02 PM (#4693431)
So the Yankees have to replace two Pineda starts with a start by Nuno and a start by Phelps.

What happens if Pineda appeals, pitches on the 27th, then drops the appeal?
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