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Saturday, August 25, 2012

Mike Mussina Doesn’t Know If He Would Go Into The Hall Of Fame As An Oriole Or Yankee

Moose A Moose…use your noggin.

For many in Baltimore, it may be difficult to see Mussina honored after watching him spend eight seasons with the arch-rival New York Yankees. Folks in my generation view him as the guy that fled Baltimore for more money in the Bronx. That might not have been exactly how it went down, but nearly half of his career was spent in New York after coming up through the Orioles system.

The Moose is now nearly four years removed from the big leagues and his numbers indicate he will be close to Hall of Fame caliber. He was asked whether he would go in as an Oriole or a Yankee should he get the call at all. “That’s a tough question, because my career obviously is pretty evenly split between both places,” Mussina said according to MASNSports.com’s Roch Kubatko. He spent 10 years in Baltimore and 8 in New York.

“You eliminate one and it changes everything about what I was able to do. I accomplished a lot of things here, I accomplished a lot of things in New York. I can’t stand here and say it’s one over the other.”

But you’ve got to think that he’s thought about it before this year, right?

“Baltimore people want me to say Baltimore, New York people want me to say New York. When I was here, I loved being here, and there’s nothing else I can say about it. This was the only place I had known for the first 10 years of my career and it was a great place to play and it was tough to leave when I had to go.”

He won 20 games with the Yankees in 2008 and reached the World Series in both 2001 and 2003. I would be shocked if Mussina wore an Orioles cap in Cooperstown.

Repoz Posted: August 25, 2012 at 09:38 AM | 44 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hof, orioles, yankees

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   1. escabeche Posted: August 25, 2012 at 09:52 AM (#4217714)
Dear Mike Mussina,

Jeffrey Maier wants you to go in as a Yankee. Does that make your decision any easier?

Love,

Baltimore
   2. DKDC Posted: August 25, 2012 at 10:31 AM (#4217761)
On the surface it's not even close. He was with Baltimore for longer. His best years were with Baltimore. His best postseason performances were with Baltimore. He didn't win a ring with either team.

But if he goes in, I bet it's as a Yankee.
   3. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 25, 2012 at 10:34 AM (#4217766)
My memory is that Moose's parting with the O's was not terribly amicable. I wonder if Angelos will make some peace offerings to try and lure him over to the Baltimore side for his cap.
   4. cardsfanboy Posted: August 25, 2012 at 10:43 AM (#4217776)
On the surface it's not even close. He was with Baltimore for longer. His best years were with Baltimore. His best postseason performances were with Baltimore. He didn't win a ring with either team.



I think that one of the tie breaker decisions should be who drafted/developed the player. Even if the years are the same and the value is the same, you have the minor league years that helped form the player that you become. Obviously the first tie breaker is the player's wish.
   5. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 25, 2012 at 10:46 AM (#4217781)
In Baltimore, Mussina's ERA+ was 130. That's the equivalent of Carl Hubbell or King Felix.

In New York, his ERA+ was 114. That's worse than Andy Pettitte's, and without the quantity of Pettitte's postseason magical moments.

In Baltimore, Mussina was seen as a home grown product who helped bring the Orioles back into contention, and was always the ace of the staff.

In New York, he was seen as little more than yet another free agent who underperformed his expectations upon signing his initial contract. And that Baltimore / New York numbers breakdown shows that this isn't simply a faulty media narrative. He pitched very well as a Yankee, but not on a Hall of Fame level.

Except for the Angelos era, I've rooted for both these teams nearly all of my life. If Mussina manages to make it into the Hall of Fame, I sincerely hope he goes in as an Oriole.
   6. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: August 25, 2012 at 10:46 AM (#4217782)
He's got quite a few years to think about this, in all likelihood.
   7. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 25, 2012 at 10:47 AM (#4217783)
I guess it would be somewhat presumptuous for a player who hasn't been elected yet to call up the HOF and ask them which team logo they were planning to engrave on his plaque.

Maybe Moose should ask if he could wear a Stanford cap. After all, he's going to be the smartest guy in the room.
   8. Chico Lind(and the Man) Posted: August 25, 2012 at 11:41 AM (#4217836)
I think that one of the tie breaker decisions should be who drafted/developed the player. Even if the years are the same and the value is the same, you have the minor league years that helped form the player that you become. Obviously the first tie breaker is the player's wish.


Obvious Piazza sneak attack.

Also, borderline HOF guys that have thoughts one way or the other about how they should be enshrined really turn me off.
   9. Gamingboy Posted: August 25, 2012 at 12:16 PM (#4217889)
Maybe his portrait could be in such a way that you'd be unable to see the logo? I think there's one or two guys who that is like....
   10. ajnrules Posted: August 25, 2012 at 12:16 PM (#4217891)
Doesn't the Hall have the final say anyways? Mussina can indicate preference about going in as a Yankee, but the if the Hall agrees with #5 then he's going in as an Oriole.

I'd like to see somebody take the precedence of Jim Hunter and go in without a cap.
   11. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 25, 2012 at 12:25 PM (#4217904)
Hunter is wearing a cap on his plaque, but the cap doesn't have a logo on it. I'd have liked to have seen Eckersley go in without a cap. Maybe Damon too, but he's not going to make it.
   12. John DiFool2 Posted: August 25, 2012 at 01:32 PM (#4217956)
What does Gaylord Perry's cap have on it? During old-timer's games he'd wear one with like half-a-dozen team logos...
   13. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: August 25, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4217964)
Doesn't the Hall have the final say anyways?


Yes. Gary Carter asked to go in as a Met, but they decided to give him an Expos hat instead. As far as I know, he's the only player to not be given his preference. (Although I think Wade Boggs signed a contract that he'd go in with a Devil Rays cap [it feels really weird writing "Devil Rays" now, btw] and the HoF rejected that)
   14. bobm Posted: August 25, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4217970)
What team's cap is Curt Schilling going to have on his plaque? :)

                                                                             
        Player  WAR   G  GS CG   W   L W-L% SV     IP  BB   SO  ERA ERA+
  Mike Mussina 78.1 537 536 57 270 153 .638  0 3562.2 785 2813 3.68  123
Curt Schilling 76.9 569 436 83 216 146 .597 22 3261.0 711 3116 3.46  127

   15. dejarouehg Posted: August 25, 2012 at 01:43 PM (#4217971)
What does Gaylord Perry's cap have on it?
A foreign substance.

   16. The District Attorney Posted: August 25, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4217973)
What team's cap is Curt Schilling going to have on his plaque?
Hopefully the state of Rhode Island will accept it as payment.
   17. Tony S Posted: August 25, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4217977)
Doesn't Rollie Fingers have multiple logos on his cap?

Mussina's similar to Dave Winfield -- long, productive stretches with two different teams. FWIW, Winfield is in as a Padre.

   18. Srul Itza Posted: August 25, 2012 at 01:58 PM (#4217982)
Doesn't Rollie Fingers have multiple logos on his cap?


Rollie is in with an A's cap.

Yogi is in profile, so you can't see the logo.
   19. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4218002)
What does Gaylord Perry's cap have on it?

A foreign substance.

They should've had the logo blocked because Perry is reaching up and touching the brim.
Isn't there a good clip anywhere of the little series of twitches, brushes, and swipes Perry would go through before every pitch?
   20. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4218041)

Gary Carter asked to go in as a Met, but they decided to give him an Expos hat instead.


They could have just had the cap on backward.
   21. Accent Shallow Posted: August 25, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4218068)
Mussina's similar to Dave Winfield -- long, productive stretches with two different teams. FWIW, Winfield is in as a Padre.

When did Steinbrenner try and dig up dirt on Mussina ;)?
   22. GregD Posted: August 25, 2012 at 05:27 PM (#4218129)
Mike Mussina Doesn’t Know If He Would Go Into The Hall Of Fame

Fixed
   23. valuearbitrageur Posted: August 25, 2012 at 06:11 PM (#4218166)
Mike Mussina Doesn’t Know If He Would Go Into The Hall Of Fame


How can he go in before the winningest pitcher of the 80s? inconceivable!
   24. Bruce Markusen Posted: August 25, 2012 at 06:36 PM (#4218184)
When a player's career is evenly split between two teams, the HOF tends to go with the player's wishes. It's only when the breakdown is heavily skewed in one direction that the HOF makes a definitive choice. If Mussina goes in--and I think he should--I'm pretty sure he would get to pick O's or Yankees on his own.
   25. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 25, 2012 at 06:40 PM (#4218189)
If Mussina goes in--and I think he should--I'm pretty sure he would get to pick O's or Yankees on his own.


He sounds like he'd rather have someone else make the call.
   26. Jay Z Posted: August 25, 2012 at 07:28 PM (#4218227)
Perry has a SF cap. He had about 6-7 years you'd care about with the Giants. He had 8 other good years, but they were split between 3 other teams. So it's not a majority, but a plurality. Didn't check his Win Shares.

There would be a good question - what are the best players who didn't have a majority of Win Shares (or whatever you want to use) with the same franchise?
   27. Kurt Posted: August 25, 2012 at 07:47 PM (#4218236)
There would be a good question - what are the best players who didn't have a majority of Win Shares (or whatever you want to use) with the same franchise?


Without looking anything up my guesses would be:

Clemens
Randy Johnson
Roberto Alomar
Lofton
Nolan Ryan


I'm sure there are plenty I'm missing.
   28. thok Posted: August 25, 2012 at 08:01 PM (#4218247)
Gary Sheffield has to be high on that list as well. (And he's probably the top player with no teams having 30% of his Win Shares).
   29. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 25, 2012 at 08:05 PM (#4218249)
I'd be stunned if the majority of Clemens' success wasn't with Boston. Let's see...and I'm right! (Change of pace, that.) About 78 of 133 (58%) of his career WAR was with Boston.

Others you listed, with their highest percentage:

Johnson: 50.7 of 98.6 with Arizona (51%)
Alomar: 24 of 66 with Toronto (36%)
Lofton: 36.6 of 54.5 with Cleveland (67%)
Ryan: 37.6 of 77.4 with the Angels (48%)

I'm sure Ryan is that close. I guess he isn't closely associated with the Angels, but he did pitch more innings there than anywhere else. Johnson surprises me with Arizona, but Lofton does not.

EDIT: To add,
Sheff: 19.6 of 76 with LA (25%)
   30. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: August 25, 2012 at 08:11 PM (#4218256)
What about Dawson? Seems like he would fit into that. Also Arod
   31. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: August 25, 2012 at 08:19 PM (#4218262)
I was right on arod and wrong with dawson
   32. cardsfanboy Posted: August 25, 2012 at 08:35 PM (#4218270)
Gossage 46.1% with the Yankees. Sutter with a Cardinals cap, and earned 25% of his value with the Cardinals(over 77% with the Cubs---negative value with the Braves) Eckersley with the A's 26.1%, Red Sox 34.8%. Perry with 39.5% with the Giants, Cy Young with only 47% with Cleveland.....Just looking a few up.
   33. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: August 25, 2012 at 08:39 PM (#4218275)
The only reason you're wrong on Dawson is that he didn't add a whole lot of value over replacement as a Cub, and for around five years added a ton as an Expo.
   34. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: August 25, 2012 at 08:45 PM (#4218278)
I wonder what Johnny Mize's breakdown is (checks):

Well I thought he had more WAR with the Yankees than he really did. He's still comfortably above the 50% as a Cardinal.

Mike Cameron had 17 of his 43.2 WAR as a Mariner.
   35. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: August 25, 2012 at 08:58 PM (#4218288)
Going over the WAR leaderboard, for position players, it looks like Scott Rolen has the highest WAR without the majority on one team. I was pretty surprised that he had more WAR in Philly than in St. Louis!
   36. cardsfanboy Posted: August 25, 2012 at 09:07 PM (#4218293)
Going over the WAR leaderboard, for position players, it looks like Scott Rolen has the highest WAR without the majority on one team. I was pretty surprised that he had more WAR in Philly than in St. Louis!


What do you mean? Arod has 111 war and 49.4 with the Yankees.
   37. SoSH U at work Posted: August 25, 2012 at 09:09 PM (#4218295)
Going over the WAR leaderboard, for position players, it looks like Scott Rolen has the highest WAR without the majority on one team. I was pretty surprised that he had more WAR in Philly than in St. Louis!


He's not even the leader among active third basemen (Arod has 49 with the Yanks, 60+ with Texas/Seattle).

Edit: Coke to CFB.
   38. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 25, 2012 at 11:04 PM (#4218340)
Other position players include Dan Brouthers (76.9 WAR, max of 24.2 with Buffalo). Oddly, his total on the leaderboard page doesn't match his total on his own page. Also Bill Dahlen (70.9, 32.5 with the Cubs).

Sheff's total including defense is actually 56.0, max of 16.1 with LA; the 76 and 19 given above are oWAR totals. Likewise, Alomar's totals are 63 overall, 21 with Toronto. Another recent entrant is Manny (64.8, 30.9 with the Red Sox).

The final player to clear 60 WAR without a majority of it on one team has just joined the list this year, in both ways (he's broken 60, and his primary team no longer has the majority). Any guesses on his identity?
   39. jyjjy Posted: August 25, 2012 at 11:27 PM (#4218346)
Although I think Wade Boggs signed a contract that he'd go in with a Devil Rays cap [it feels really weird writing "Devil Rays" now, btw] and the HoF rejected that

If I recall properly before that contract they had always let the player decide and only changed it as a direct response to Boggs/TB making a mockery of such.
   40. Kurt Posted: August 25, 2012 at 11:32 PM (#4218348)
38 - dumb guess (I guess it depends on how WAR measures defense), but Adrian Beltre.

Okay, I checked Beltre. The only dumb part of the guess is joining the club this year. He has 58.9 WAR - 21.8 with the Dodgers, 19.6 in Seattle. I had forgotten he spent five years with the Mariners.
   41. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 25, 2012 at 11:38 PM (#4218357)
The final player to clear 60 WAR without a majority of it on one team has just joined the list this year, in both ways (he's broken 60, and his primary team no longer has the majority). Any guesses on his identity?

Beltran?
   42. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 25, 2012 at 11:40 PM (#4218358)
Beltran?

Beltran is right. 30.2 with the Mets, 62 total - 3.3 with the Cards this year so far.
   43. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 25, 2012 at 11:42 PM (#4218360)
Beltran is right. 30.2 with the Mets, 62 total - 3.3 with the Cards this year so far.

Woohoo! I never get these right. So Kurt was only a couple letters off.
   44. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 26, 2012 at 12:33 AM (#4218380)
Nolan Ryan....

should have worn a cap that just read "Expansion", as he was the only player in history to spread out his career exclusively among the orginal four expansion franchises: Mets, Angels, Astros and Rangers.

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