One of the celeb Harry Caray impersonators did a good bit like this. Something like: "And he hits a popup. Castro drifts over and ... the ball drops. He lost it in the sun and the ball drops. Now Steve, this kid is from the Dominican Republic. The sun shines all year long in the Dominican Republic Steve. How could he lose a ball in the sun?"

I really hate this season. It's gotten to the point where I usually don't even bother checking the Cub score and I'm the kinda guy who'd rather watch a Cub game on Sept 30 when they're 20 games out than a pennant race between two other teams.

I said it the other night in a game chatter, but I'll reiterate: I dislike Mike Quade more than I ever did Dusty Baker. And I loathed Baker by the end of the 2006 season.

This is some bad news, right here. I think losing a ball in the sun is usually chalked up as one of those things that is unfortunate but not attributed to misconduct by the player, unless he forgot his sunglasses that inning or something.

The sun's been in the same place all this time? That's what you're gonna go with? Poor form.

The sun’s been in the same spot for however long Wrigley Field’s been here.

It's also big enough in the sky that a pop fly that goes between the sun and where Castro started is also going to go between the sun and any point Castro could get to before the ball hit the ground. Sunglasses aren't going to do anything. Basically he has two choices: Look at the sun and get dazzled and be unable to see the ball, or stop tracking it and not see the ball. Sometimes circumstances just screw you.

Even if you think loosing a ball in the sun is some sort of moral failing, which is pretty silly. Deal with it internally, don't throw the 21 year old kid under the bus infront of the media. That's a borderline fireable offense. You're supposed to be their mentor and leader, and a guy they think they can turn to. Acting like a pouty little douchebad infront of the press completely undermines that position.


I really hate this season. It's gotten to the point where I usually don't even bother checking the Cub score and I'm the kinda guy who'd rather watch a Cub game on Sept 30 when they're 20 games out than a pennant race between two other teams.

Hey. At least they aren't as bad as the Asstros... hey Lisa :)

Having RTFA, Quade doesn't blame them for the loss, the headline is rewritten to suggest Quade has lost sight of the forest and only sees the tree. There's a bigger picture at work here, in that Quade has been tough, but basically fair, to Castro and Barney from Day 1. He might be holding them to a different standard than he holds Soriano, but in Quade's defense, Soriano is a lost cause in a way Barney and Castro are not, and Quade came up through the system with these guys. Getting on Barney and Castro, as a tandem, for not catching a ball that Castro lost in the sun is probably a bit unreasonable. But it fits in a larger context of Quade being more of a fundamentals task-master and less of a lazy player-enabling pushover than any Cubs manager since Jim Frey.

I really hate this season. It's gotten to the point where I usually don't even bother checking the Cub score and I'm the kinda guy who'd rather watch a Cub game on Sept 30 when they're 20 games out than a pennant race between two other teams.

The Pittsburgh Pirates are currently taking applications for hopping onto their previously empty bandwagon, but hurry to apply.. space is filling up fast.

Brenly was implying right after the play that perhaps Barney ought to have taken over on that popup since the sun is so tough for Castro on that play, and Barney had a better angle. I think that's probably what Quade means here by the "sun's always been there" line - these guys should be prepared for plays like this where the ball is hit in an awkward spot.

Don't really have a problem with Quade here.

What a jackass. I heard this whole statement from Quade on the Score and he was without a doubt throwing Castro under the bus. He calls him Cassie (why? who the #### knows?) and he called him out by name. Said if he catches that, the Phils don't score in the first and it's a whole different game.

The Pittsburgh Pirates are currently taking applications for hopping onto their previously empty bandwagon, but hurry to apply.. space is filling up fast.

And it's only a matter of time before that bandwagon hits a few potholes, the engine explodes and it becomes a huge fireball. Only a +13 Run Diff, -0.1 SRS, and +7.6 in 3rd order wins. Only the Angels win 90 games with numbers like that.

I should add, while I can not officially jump on their bandwagon, I hope they continue the smoke and mirrors act all the way till September, and the Reds somehow come back and win the division in Pittsburgh on the last weekend of the season.

Walt, I believe that was an actual Haray quote/paraphrase.

Moses post backs me up, but here's the Daily Herald article which shows a little better that Quade thinks the game turned on the pop up in the sun.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20110720/sports/707209798/#ixzz1ShtAxtxC

This part was particularly galling.

"I think our veterans are doing a pretty damn good job," Quade said. "I see intensity from our center fielder (Marlon Byrd), and Rami's (Aramis Ramirez) playing really well. It doesn't mean we don't make some mistakes. I just know the value of the middle of the diamond. We've got two talented kids there that need to get better, and they've got 60-some games to prove that and to show that the rest of this season and go from there."

And it's only a matter of time before that bandwagon hits a few potholes, the engine explodes and it becomes a huge fireball.

Having Cubs fans aboard would make that a certainty.

The Pittsburgh Pirates are currently taking applications for hopping onto their previously empty bandwagon, but hurry to apply.. space is filling up fast.

I want the Pirates to win the division so that Ricketts is forced to oust Hendry.

I don't want the Pirates to make the playoffs because I don't want the ownership rewarded for their evil strategy.

Said if he catches that, the Phils don't score in the first and it's a whole different game.

A 1-0 Cub shutout win, apparently. Does he blame Castro for the team's non-existent offense?

Read the Herald article, and I see what you guys mean. But the thing that bugs me isn't the Castro thing. It was a bad play, and I have no problem with him saying so because there's little sense in arguing otherwise.

What bugs me is Quade's line that "I think our veterans are doing a pretty damn good job." Single out Byd and Ramirez, fine, I don't have a problem with those guys either. But don't throw the kids under the bus if you're going to - implicitly at least - stick up for the rest of a team that's 20 games under .500 and in fifth place.

A slight tangent - anyone else think that Pena is wildly overrated defensively? I guess we're a little spoiled, having had DLee and Grace over there throughout the years, but even still Pena comes highly regarded and I don't think he's been impressive for the Cubs at all this year.

I was going to sort of defend Quade here (I don't "dislike him" like #2, so much as feel sorry for him; he doesn't remind me of Dusty Baker so much as Bruce Kimm), but the quote in #11 is ridiculous.

While Castro is by FAR the best and most interesting player on this Cubs team, he also has two glaring weaknesses that are keeping him from superstardom: on offense, he needs to learn to take a walk, and on defense, he needs to cut down on the sloppy errors. That said, losing a ball in the sun isn't the best example of the latter and implying that Castro (and Barney) is why the team's in 5th place is ridiculous.

But the thing that bugs me isn't the Castro thing. It was a bad play, and I have no problem with him saying so because there's little sense in arguing otherwise.

But it wasn't like it was a slow grounder he botched by backhanding rather than getting in front of, it wasn't a dropped pop-up due to using one hand, it was a ball lost in the sun, which can happen to anyone. Unless Quade had knowledge of Castro being out til 4 AM(which is possible), there's not a lot of blame you can lay at Starlin's feet on this.

A slight tangent - anyone else think that Pena is wildly overrated defensively? I guess we're a little spoiled, having had DLee and Grace over there throughout the years, but even still Pena comes highly regarded and I don't think he's been impressive for the Cubs at all this year.

Agreed, from what I've seen. Just off the top of my head, doesn't he have multiple multi-error games this year?

He seems to be a great receiver, the rest pretty meh.

Speaking of the Cubs, how is that trade market for Carlos Zambrano looking nowadays? The deadline is only ten days away.

Agreed, from what I've seen. Just off the top of my head, doesn't he have multiple multi-error games this year?

Not only that, but I've seen several throws from Castro that looked like easy scoops for Pena that he whiffed on. I understand why Castro gets the error in that situation, but I think a better gloveman would have saved him quite a few this year (I've seen at least 3 that I thought should have been scooped, and I don't get to watch much).

Speaking of the Cubs, how is that trade market for Carlos Zambrano looking nowadays? The deadline is only ten days away.

Given his contract, the Cubs aren't getting anything unless they eat about $15 million in salary. And even then, I don't think what they get will be more valuable than whatever Zambrano does the rest of this year and next year.

Needs to take a walk and sloppy errors? Quade should be patient; sounds like Castro has a good chance to become Soriano.

Not only that, but I've seen several throws from Castro that looked like easy scoops for Pena that he whiffed on. I understand why Castro gets the error in that situation, but I think a better gloveman would have saved him quite a few this year (I've seen at least 3 that I thought should have been scooped, and I don't get to watch much).

Agreed, I get the same impression. Here are numbers:

2010: 11 throwing errors, 334 assists
2011: 10 throwing errors, 260 assists

That's a slightly higher rate this year, although nothing all too radical. On the other hand, last year he committed 16 fielding errors, and this year he has only 6. So it's at least possible that he's improved his throwing also and we're just not seeing it because Pena's not scooping as many throws.

That's a slightly higher rate this year, although nothing all too radical. On the other hand, last year he committed 16 fielding errors, and this year he has only 6. So it's at least possible that he's improved his throwing also and we're just not seeing it because Pena's not scooping as many throws.

That sounds about right to me.

The sun’s been in the same spot for however long Wrigley Field’s been here.

Actually, it hasn't, due to things like the Earth orbiting around the sun and the Earth rotating and precessing. But why be technical?

I don't want the Pirates to make the playoffs because I don't want the ownership rewarded for their evil strategy.

What "evil strategy" is that, pray tell?

Ohh dont forget that earthquake messed it sll up earlier this year!
Also go pirate

What "evil strategy" is that, pray tell?

The strategy of spending little money and turning a large profit without ownership even attempting to try to win.

He calls him Cassie (why? who the #### knows?)

Every player has a nickname that makes it easy to communicate while in the field. I don't think it's anything more than that.

The strategy of spending little money and turning a large profit without ownership even attempting to try to win.

Apparently you haven't been following the Pirates draft strategy or prospects the past three years.

Every player has a nickname that makes it easy to communicate while in the field.

How is "Cassie" easier to communicate than "Castro"? They're both two syllables and end in a long vowel.

Apparently you haven't been following the Pirates draft strategy or prospects the past three years.

I didn't realize they had spent tens of millions in the draft above what most teams spend.

How is "Cassie" easier to communicate than "Castro"? They're both two syllables and end in a long vowel.

T and R requires serious tongue action.

The strategy of spending little money and turning a large profit without ownership even attempting to try to win.

If you examine the leaked books, you can verify that for at least the first couple years of Nutting's majority ownership, the team most definitely was NOT "turning a large profit". For one of the years, they didn't even disburse money to the owners for them to use to pay their federal taxes.

(There is a large cash disbursement to Nutting in one of the years, but if you dig a little deeper that turns out to be a repayment of a personal loan Nutting had made to the team under the former majority owner - which he initially tried to have repaid to himself in the form of an increased equity stake, rather than cash, only to have the other board members reject his proposal.)

I didn't realize they had spent tens of millions in the draft above what most teams spend.

No team is ever going to be able to spend "tens of millions" more than the pack - even if there were enough draftable high-end prospects to be worth that kind of investment, MLB wouldn't approve the contracts.

That said, from '08-'10 (with '08 being the first year Nutting was the majority owner), no team in baseball has spent more on the draft than the Pirates - not even the Nats, who signed Strasburg and Harper during that time. They also hugely ramped up spending on Latin amateurs. Before Nutting took over, the team had literally never given a six-figure contract to a Latin amateur. This year, they've already spent $1.05M on Harold Ramirez and $570k on Elvis Escobar, on the heels of one of the most expensive Latin contracts ever during the 2010 signing period ($2.6M for Luis Heredia).

The team has also made a huge number of infrastructure and facilities investments over the last few years. They built an entirely new Dominican academy from the ground up (at a cost of $4-5M), because the old one was an embarrassment. They purchased the former Sarasota Reds and moved them to Bradenton, the site of their (also recently renovated) spring training complex. Christ, they even dropped $250k on a new performance kitchen at PNC Park for the players' use last offseason. They've been spending like drunken sailors - not that anyone's noticed.

They haven't spent much on ML payroll the last year or two because most of their good players are young and pre-arb, and no free agents of quality have ever been willing to sign with the Pirates, even when offered more money/years than they'd get elsewhere (though that may change now that the team's looking more like a legitimate contender and less like a perennial doormat).

T and R requires serious tongue action.

This appears to be both snark and accurate.

Thanks Vlad, for doing a better writeup on the Pirates than I had the patience for.

Also go pirate

Which one?

Or maybe you meant that as an imperative ...

#### Mike Quade. Castro is about the only reason to watch the Cubs anymore. Quade is the ultimate example of the Peter principle.

Thanks Vlad, for doing a better writeup on the Pirates than I had the patience for.

Not a problem, glad to help.

He calls him Cassie (why? who the #### knows?)

that's an NHL-ish type nickname (he's not Canadian, is he?)

"What's that, Cassie? Darwin Barney fell down a well?"

But Vlad, a team that has no chance to win should still be giving out big contracts to people like Gil Meche and J.J. Hardy. If they choose to invest in other things or save their money for their next chance at success they're just parasites on the productive teams!

I still think the Hardy contract was worthwhile FWIW.

Revenue sharing does make them parasites, but that's the price big-market teams have to pay for being able to spend whatever they like. If the Pirates show no inclination to do deadline deals that would help them win, well, that's a different story.

If you examine the leaked books, you can verify that for at least the first couple years of Nutting's majority ownership, the team most definitely was NOT "turning a large profit". For one of the years, they didn't even disburse money to the owners for them to use to pay their federal taxes.

(There is a large cash disbursement to Nutting in one of the years, but if you dig a little deeper that turns out to be a repayment of a personal loan Nutting had made to the team under the former majority owner - which he initially tried to have repaid to himself in the form of an increased equity stake, rather than cash, only to have the other board members reject his proposal.)

I have literally never seen that (not to be used as a dismissal). I'm going on the article about Cuban asking about purchasing the team, and being told they weren't for sale because "they're bringing in money hand over fist".

No team is ever going to be able to spend "tens of millions" more than the pack - even if there were enough draftable high-end prospects to be worth that kind of investment, MLB wouldn't approve the contracts.

That said, from '08-'10 (with '08 being the first year Nutting was the majority owner), no team in baseball has spent more on the draft than the Pirates - not even the Nats, who signed Strasburg and Harper during that time. They also hugely ramped up spending on Latin amateurs. Before Nutting took over, the team had literally never given a six-figure contract to a Latin amateur. This year, they've already spent $1.05M on Harold Ramirez and $570k on Elvis Escobar, on the heels of one of the most expensive Latin contracts ever during the 2010 signing period ($2.6M for Luis Heredia).

The team has also made a huge number of infrastructure and facilities investments over the last few years. They built an entirely new Dominican academy from the ground up (at a cost of $4-5M), because the old one was an embarrassment. They purchased the former Sarasota Reds and moved them to Bradenton, the site of their (also recently renovated) spring training complex. Christ, they even dropped $250k on a new performance kitchen at PNC Park for the players' use last offseason. They've been spending like drunken sailors - not that anyone's noticed.

Again, none of this is stuff I've seen (though I admit I haven't been paying a lot of attention). But again, it's all been a lot more recent. There was a large stretch of time in which they just didn't spend money.

They haven't spent much on ML payroll the last year or two because most of their good players are young and pre-arb, and no free agents of quality have ever been willing to sign with the Pirates, even when offered more money/years than they'd get elsewhere (though that may change now that the team's looking more like a legitimate contender and less like a perennial doormat).

Previously they were letting good players go before they got too expensive (or anyone they could get rid of a few trading deadlines ago).

So it's at least possible that he's improved his throwing also and we're just not seeing it because Pena's not scooping as many throws.
Pena has a pretty good rep wrt scooping, fwiw. I suspect the more likely cause is that error rate can be a little noisy.

They've been spending like drunken sailors - not that anyone's noticed.
I think it's safe to say that you have, Vlad.
I have too (as I think you know) and largely support your version of history - though I'd be careful to explicitly limit anything more than limited praise for their operations to the last few years.

"What's that, Cassie? Darwin Barney fell down a well?"

Now that's awesome.

There was a large stretch of time in which they just didn't spend money.

Yes, there was: Under the former majority owner, who left the ownership group in '07. I wasn't trying to be hard on you earlier in the thread - I just hate seeing the current owner being blamed for the sins of his predecessor. After assuming control, Nutting spent a year taking stock of the way things were working, and then changed pretty much everything about the team's operations from top to bottom.

There's some good detail on a lot of this stuff in this article from the P-G.

Previously they were letting good players go before they got too expensive (or anyone they could get rid of a few trading deadlines ago).

Huntington traded all those players in '08 and '09 because they were impending FAs who were in decline and unlikely to represent good value under a contract extension. Jason Bay had degenerative knee and shoulder problems, and his extension with the Mets is a disaster (81 OPS+ in 2011 to date, and earning $16M per for several more years). Xavier Nady was dealt at the absolute peak of his value - he missed almost all of 2009 after TJ surgery, and is currently putting up a 75 OPS+ as a reserve for Arizona. Jack Wilson got $5M per from the Mariners both last year and this year. He lost his starting job and is putting up a 48 OPS+ in 139 PA in 2011. John Grabow is earning $4.8M this year, and has put up 92 innings with a 79 ERA+ since the Cubs signed him. Adam LaRoche was tolerable for Arizona for a year (106 OPS+ as a 1B), signed a two-year deal for $15M with the Nats, then put up a 54 OPS+ in 177 PA and had season-ending shoulder surgery.

A few of the traded players were discretionary deals rather than ones motivated by FA, but those mostly seem like good ideas, too. Ian Snell requested at one point in 2009 that he be demoted to AAA Indy rather than continue to pitch for the Pirates. Seattle paid him $4.45M for 46 innings of a 65 ERA+ in 2010, then bought out his 2011 and 2012 options. He retired this spring, then un-retired, and is currently carrying a double-digit ERA for the Dodgers' AAA affiliate. Nate McLouth put up a 68 OPS+ in 2010 and is carrying an 87 in 2011 to date, earning $11.5M in the two years combined (plus a $1.25M buyout of his 2012 option, which seems likely to be declined at this point). Sean Burnett and Nyjer Morgan for Joel Hanrahan and Lastings Milledge wasn't motivated by finances, and it's certainly been a winner on talent for the Bucs.

The only guys who were traded away who have played well are Jose Bautista (who requested a trade, and whose breakout pretty much nobody anticipated), Freddy Sanchez (who had knee surgery the offseason after being traded), Eric Hinske (who requested a trade), and Tom Gorzelanny (who had put up an 80 ERA+ the year before he was traded, and a 66 ERA+ the year before that).

Blaming Quade for the Cubs' woes isn't any more reasonable than blaming Castro.

Blaming Quade for the Cubs' woes isn't any more reasonable than blaming Castro.

I dunno. I don't think they're bad because of Quade - I expected them to be bad anyway. Although maybe not this bad. Still, I don't think anyone thinks that they'd be contenders if only they got rid of Quade. I agree that would be stupid.

It's more a question of, WTF is this guy doing here in the first place?

Yes, there was: Under the former majority owner, who left the ownership group in '07. I wasn't trying to be hard on you earlier in the thread - I just hate seeing the current owner being blamed for the sins of his predecessor. After assuming control, Nutting spent a year taking stock of the way things were working, and then changed pretty much everything about the team's operations from top to bottom.

There's some good detail on a lot of this stuff in this article from the P-G.

I thought Nutting was a majority owner for a while, but finally pushed out McClatchy as the face of the ownership group in 2007.

Blaming Quade for the Cubs' woes isn't any more reasonable than blaming Castro.

Well he certainly hasn't helped. He is in over his head.

He's in over his head, but we'll talk about him for years to come and it's not like the Cubs are going anywhere this year or in the immediate future anyway. Let's just appreciate Quade for all his frustrated incompetence while we have it; he'll be gone this offseason and someone far more boring will take his place.

Let's just appreciate Quade for all his frustrated incompetence while we have it; he'll be gone this offseason and someone far more boring will take his place.

Almost certainly Sandberg, one would think, unless those bridges are burned. The team said that they didn't want to make the obvious PR move when hiring Quade, and boy didn't they. But they'll be dying to make a big PR move this season.

I thought Nutting was a majority owner for a while, but finally pushed out McClatchy as the face of the ownership group in 2007.

Nope. McClatchy was majority partner until 2007.

No GM/team president is going to have a PR manager forced upon him to start his tenure. Sandberg will only be hired if the new regime thinks he's the best manager available, which is to say he probably won't be hired.

Someone really needs to put together a DVD, or at least a youtube video, called "Wait, What? The Dave Littlefield Years".

Was he in over his head last year?

Winning makes everyone look good (see Dusty Baker) and losing makes everyone look bad (see Dusty Baker).

I was speaking to two long-time Cubs fans and they were in complete agreement that MQ was a well-intentioned guy but not up for the job. So I listed the Lee Elias and Stan Hacks and they were nope, Mike is the pits.

Just sharing.

Was he in over his head last year?

His task was much different last year.

And for the record, Dusty drove me crazy even when they were winning.

Random Cubs fan gripe: is there any more useless media product on the face of the earth than Carrie Muskat's mailbag columns? I don't expect much considering that she writes for the house organ, but good lord is she inane.

I love the idea that in 2011, a "cubs collapsing" thread could be hijacked by people talking about the Pirates.

David Haugh calls up Jim Essian to chat about Quade. Too funny.

Quade's cooked.