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Friday, July 04, 2008

FOX: Rosenthal: Brewers lead pack making serious run at Sabathia

The Milwaukee Brewers are serious about trading for Indians left-hander C.C. Sabathia — more serious, perhaps, than any other club. The Brewers’ offer for Sabathia includes Class AA left fielder Matt LaPorta, according to sources with two other clubs that are interested in acquiring the pitcher.

Class AA shortstop Alcides Escobar also may be in the Brewers’ proposed deal, one of the sources says.

The Brewers likely would prefer to substitute a lesser player for Escobar, or perhaps would insist upon additional talent if the Indians demanded his inclusion. But if the Brewers indeed were willing to give up both LaPorta and Escobar, the Sabathia sweepstakes might be over before they started.

“I can not imagine anyone would top that,” the first source said. The second added, “That deal should get it done.”

MIL Journal-Sentinel: Sabathia trade rumors fanned

As the Milwaukee Brewers continued to scout Sabathia in his outing for Cleveland against Chicago on Wednesday night, word came out of Brevard County, Fla., that the Indians were looking at specific Milwaukee minor-leaguers… According to a source in attendance, the Indians had scouts looking at Class A Brevard County third baseman Taylor Green, the Brewers’ minor-league player of the year in 2007.

NTNgod Posted: July 04, 2008 at 03:16 AM | 78 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: brewers, indians, rumors

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1. NTNgod Posted: July 04, 2008 at 04:29 AM (#2843009)

As I mentioned in the intro of the earlier pre-Robo update (based on the MIL J-S article), an offer centered around LaPorta and Green (the OTHER lefty-swinging 3B prospect for the Brewers) makes sense for Milwaukee, IMO.

2. CFBF Hates Hyphens Posted: July 04, 2008 at 04:34 AM (#2843011)

Speaking strictly as a huge Matt LaPorta fan, I'd love this deal. For some reason Cleveland just seems like a good place for him.

3. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: July 04, 2008 at 04:36 AM (#2843012)

If this deal gets done and Sheets remains healthy, I'd have to say the Brewers probably become favorites for the NL Central. It'll still be close, but I'm not sure the Cubs can allow this deal to go through.

4. NTNgod Posted: July 04, 2008 at 04:39 AM (#2843014)

The Cubs themselves don't have the bullets to stop it.

Now, the bidding might get too rich for Doug Melvin's blood, or another team might outbid them, but the Cubs aren't going to be that team.

5. JoeHova Posted: July 04, 2008 at 04:42 AM (#2843016)

Here we go down the Linebrink track. I guess Doug learned nothing from that deal. If this goes through, they are saying 2008 is the only year they plan on competing. Even if they make the playoffs and win the World Series (which is hardly guaranteed, no matter how many guys they trade for), then what? They have to let everybody walk? What's the ####### point?

If they are so desperate for a pitcher, why not at least trade for one they can have for a couple years? Sure, it might cost more, but it might not. LaPorta and Escobar is way too steep of a price for 2-3 months of anybody, much less of Sabathia.

If this happens, I hope they fire Doug after they don't make the playoffs and replace him with Zduriencik. There is no reason the Brewers couldn't have a window open longer than one year.

Melvin appears to undervalue prospects. When he trades a star (or near star), he prefers to get a bunch of ML-ready garbage in return , but when he trades for a guy, he prefers to give up prospects. Luckily, the Brewers haven't traded for many guys lately, which has been his saving grace.

6. Slapinions Posted: July 04, 2008 at 04:47 AM (#2843017)

Even if they make the playoffs and win the World Series (which is hardly guaranteed, no matter how many guys they trade for), then what? They have to let everybody walk? What's the ####### point?

Are you kidding? Trade everyone in the farm system and the bat boys too if it means I'll see a championship for the first time in my middle-aged life. I have no problem going after Sabathia if the Brewers have a serious shot at making a run for the playoffs.

7. NTNgod Posted: July 04, 2008 at 04:51 AM (#2843021)

Here we go down the Linebrink track.

But what if it's LaPorta+ (Green, a Huntsville guy not named Escobar, Gamel or Salome) for Sabathia and the two picks?

One of the two guys Robo mentions thinks Escobar MIGHT be included, but what if he's not?

8. JoeHova Posted: July 04, 2008 at 04:51 AM (#2843022)

I disagree. I don't want another 1982 thing where the team is good for 1 year (ok, it was more like 5, but only 2 playoff years) and then we have to talk about it for decades after that. I'd rather they try to build something. This move seems like panic.

Also, the main point is that getting Sabathia hardly guarantees anything. He got crushed in the playoffs last year (not that that means much). Anybody can do anything over the course of two months (much less the playoffs), which is why Jeff Weaver has as many world series rings as Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez or Greg Maddux.

9. JoeHova Posted: July 04, 2008 at 04:55 AM (#2843023)

I agree that trading LaPorta could make some sense because he is blocked everywhere and is relatively old. However, you're still talking about a guy who will likely be an above-average first-baseman, which would make him, what, probably one of the 25-30 or so best hitters in baseball? I think that alone may be too much to give up for 2-3 months of anybody.

The draft picks would help mitigate that, I guess, but Doug is putting a lot of pressure on Jack Z by never making moves for the long-term.

10. Slapinions Posted: July 04, 2008 at 05:00 AM (#2843026)

JoeHova -

Sure, but you said it yourself: good for 5 years, but only two playoff appearances. They should/coulda iced 1982 and they could have been in the running for a few more years. The trades that led them to the Series in '82 can't be faulted because they did what they needed to do - they got the team to within one game of a ring. Had they finished the job that year I think we'd all have a different outlook, but I'm with you on one thing. I'm sick to death of the over the top nostalgia for the '82 team.

11. Best Regards, Larry M. Posted: July 04, 2008 at 05:18 AM (#2843029)

What moves did the Brewers make to get to the '82 series that would have helped them down the road if they hadn't made them?

12. The Keith Law Blog Blah Blah (battlekow) Posted: July 04, 2008 at 05:28 AM (#2843031)

I'd trade LaPorta and Green for Sabathia and not lose any sleep over it. Imagine if they do that and also send Hardy to Toronto for Burnett.

13. JoeHova Posted: July 04, 2008 at 05:43 AM (#2843037)

But what if they sent your boy Alcides as well? How would you sleep then?

Or, alternatively, what if they deal LaPorta & Green for Burnett or Daniel Cabrera or somebody like that?

I don't see why we think Doug will make a smart deal if he decides to trade for a pitcher. Last year when he did that, he blew it big time. Meanwhile, Linebrink is not nearly the player that Sabathia is, so doesn't it follow that he would be willing to give up a lot more for Sabathia than he was for Linebrink? I'm really worried that Doug will do something like LaPorta, Escobar, Salome, and Jeffress for Sabathia & Betancourt.

14. jwb Posted: July 04, 2008 at 05:51 AM (#2843041)

I would argue that trading Fielder and promoting LaPorta and using the saved money to fill a hole is exactly what a small market team should do. Especially since I think that Fielder's career path will be similar to Kent Hrbek's or Lee May's. I've never been wrong about this sort of thing before. David Ortiz, Jason Giambi, and Carlos Pena have been worthless and overpaid for the last few years.

Flags fly forever. A flag may help Melvin keep his job for years.

Melvin's window may only be one or two years. I think there is a short window before Cincinnati's young players become stars and they dominate the NL Central for the near future.

15. Kiko Sakata

Posted: July 04, 2008 at 06:03 AM (#2843048)

Even if they make the playoffs and win the World Series (which is hardly guaranteed, no matter how many guys they trade for), then what? They have to let everybody walk? What's the ####### point?

Actually, Milwaukee's a pretty good baseball town. They've been in the top half of the NL in attendance the last two years and (admittedly, going back 50 years), the Braves led the league in attendance their first 6 years in Milwaukee. If the Brewers make the playoffs and win the World Series, I would think they could afford to keep at least one of Sheets or Sabathia and probably both if they really wanted to.

16. JoeHova Posted: July 04, 2008 at 06:58 AM (#2843063)

I think there is a short window before Cincinnati's young players become stars and they dominate the NL Central for the near future.

17. Esoteric Posted: July 04, 2008 at 06:58 AM (#2843064)

David Ortiz, Jason Giambi, and Carlos Pena have been worthless and overpaid for the last few years.

There are several things wrong with this sentence.

18. NTNgod Posted: July 04, 2008 at 07:01 AM (#2843065)

There are several things wrong with this sentence.

The preceding sentence of "I've never been wrong about this sort of thing before" likely gives an indication of where his tongue was located.

19. MSI Posted: July 04, 2008 at 03:23 PM (#2843171)

20. Esoteric Posted: July 04, 2008 at 03:30 PM (#2843180)

The preceding sentence of "I've never been wrong about this sort of thing before" likely gives an indication of where his tongue was located.

I re-read the entire post, and there's absolutely nothing in it that would indicate sarcasm as far as I can tell. I must be impaired.

21. Paul D(uda) Posted: July 04, 2008 at 03:33 PM (#2843183)

I re-read the entire post, and there's absolutely nothing in it that would indicate sarcasm as far as I can tell. I must be impaired.

Yes, i think you need to take your sarcasm detector in for a tune up.

22. Perros Posted: July 04, 2008 at 03:40 PM (#2843189)

Everything in that first para is sarcastic, followed by 'flags fly forever'.

Perhaps you just need more coffee.

23. Jimmy P Posted: July 04, 2008 at 04:02 PM (#2843206)

Wouldn't you rather keep Laporta and get AJ Burnett for Alcides Escobar? You guys won't even be able to sign CC long term. Yeah or I'd take Hardy for Burnett, and other stuff (you could have Eckstein for free).

I wouldn't. Burnett is maybe half the pitcher CC is. If the Brewers want to win, then CC is what they should do. Even if they "build for something", do you think they'll have a better shot at the title next year? I wouldn't. Cincy can only be better, the Cubs shouldn't be worse, and you never know with St. Louis. Plus, the Brewers in all liklihood won't have Sheets.

So, the Brewers would probably be worse, the Cubs the same, and the Reds a little better. But, at least they'll have another 1B/LF/DH on the roster. Everyone knew that they'd have to get rid of LaPorta or Fielder at one point, so if you can get CC and possibly challenge for a title with him, I'd do it.

24. Elvis Posted: July 04, 2008 at 04:39 PM (#2843233)

What moves did the Brewers make to get to the '82 series that would have helped them down the road if they hadn't made them?

I believe the big move the Brewers made that year in-season was sending Kevin Bass and Frank DiPino to the Astros for Don Sutton.

25. MSI Posted: July 04, 2008 at 04:48 PM (#2843239)

"Burnett isn't half the pitcher Sabathia is."

Burnett FIP 3.38. Sabathia FIP 3.29.

I think your math is off by just a bit.

26. greenback

Posted: July 04, 2008 at 04:55 PM (#2843241)

I'm pretty sure Burnett and Sabathia pitched in 2007. Stats from that year might be relevant here.

27. MSI Posted: July 04, 2008 at 04:57 PM (#2843243)

Well he's a better pitcher. But twice as good I don't think so. Burnett would no doubt help the Brewers staff. Plus Burnett has that chance to go completely apeshit dominant for the last few months of the season to get a nice new contract. It depends if you want to give up a 30 homerun bat for that difference over 2-3 months.

28. Perros Posted: July 04, 2008 at 05:06 PM (#2843252)

Since 2002, Burnett has pitched over 170 innings once. In the same period, Sabathia has never pitched less than 188 innings. This season, factoring out Sabathia's poor start, you get more than an per outing from him. Plus, Burnett is 3 1/2 years older.

Would you wager that you'd get the same number of innings from Burnett the rest of the season with comparable numbers?

29. MSI Posted: July 04, 2008 at 05:09 PM (#2843257)

I'd wager you get 85% of the innings and the ERA. So 120 innings vs. 100, and around a 3.25 ERA vs. a 3.75 ERA. But I'm talking only about THIS year, not every year going forward. Burnett is in a contract year.

30. Jay Z Posted: July 04, 2008 at 05:18 PM (#2843263)

What moves did the Brewers make to get to the '82 series that would have helped them down the road if they hadn't made them?

I believe the big move the Brewers made that year in-season was sending Kevin Bass and Frank DiPino to the Astros for Don Sutton.

Sutton not only helped in 1982, but was there for 1983-84 as well. The Brewers were legitimate contenders in 1983. They were in the race until a bad month of September. At the time the trade was made, Fingers and Vuckovich were still healthy so another division title in 1983 wasn't out of the question.

31. PanRains Posted: July 04, 2008 at 05:20 PM (#2843269)

Burnett FIP 3.38. Sabathia FIP 3.29.

I think your math is off by just a bit.

I know that it's not kosher to simply disregard some stats that helps to bloster one's point, but it should be noted that that 3.29 FIP ERA of CCs includes his first 4 starts when he had an actual ERA of 13.50 in 18 IP, with 32 H, 14 BB and 5 HRs allowed. Since that time and before that, as greenback06 notes, he's been dominant, witha 2.16 ERA in 104 IP, a 5 to 1 K:BB ratio, and a HR allowed every 13 IP. Not to mention durability:

CC has pitched 16 more IP this year than Burnett
CC has never made fewer than 28 starts in a season, while AJ has made more only twice
CC pitches deeper into games than AJ (in 8 of AJs 18 starts he hasn't pitched at least 6 IP, CC 4 of 18)

I like AJ, but he's not nearly the pitcher CC is.

32. JoeHova Posted: July 04, 2008 at 05:29 PM (#2843279)

So, the Brewers would probably be worse

yeah, because Gallardo will still be out for the year and none of their young players will get better, meanwhile, every young player on all the other teams in the division will improve.

Fielder and Braun are still only 24, it seems stupid to point to their age 24 seasons as the one to go for it all in. But that's just my opinion.

33. Mike Emeigh

Posted: July 04, 2008 at 05:54 PM (#2843303)

If Doug Melvin has a chance to get Sabathia for a deal centered around LaPorta and Green or Escobar, he should bite the bullet and do it. The Brewers do have some other guys with potential coming up the system - Gamel, Gillespie, Cain, maybe Steffan Wilson - so I don't see it as a huge sacrifice for the long term.

-- MWE

34. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 04, 2008 at 06:03 PM (#2843317)

Cincy can only be better, the Cubs shouldn't be worse, and you never know with St. Louis.

The Cubs aren't exactly young. Lee and Soriano will be 33 next year, Fukudome 32; the only members of their starting eight under 30 are Soto and DeRosa. Piniella turns 65 later this summer, and can't be expected to be there a whole lot longer.

The Cubs' window is right now. Two years from now, the Brewers and Reds should be the class of the division, although teams do find a way to screw these things up.

35. JoeHova Posted: July 04, 2008 at 06:24 PM (#2843349)

The Brewers do have some other guys with potential coming up the system - Gamel, Gillespie, Cain, maybe Steffan Wilson - so I don't see it as a huge sacrifice for the long term.

36. Jimmy P Posted: July 04, 2008 at 07:41 PM (#2843426)

The Cubs aren't exactly young. Lee and Soriano will be 33 next year, Fukudome 32; the only members of their starting eight under 30 are Soto and DeRosa. Piniella turns 65 later this summer, and can't be expected to be there a whole lot longer.

33 isn't dead. None of those guys have "old man skills", so I wouldn't expect there performance to drop off a ton. Will it be the same? No, but they're 51-35, even if they drop down a little they'll still be the class of the division.

I think your math is off by just a bit.

Fine. You go with the guy that has only thrown 200 innings twice in his 10 year career and has a 2:1 K/BB ratio. I'll stick with the guy that is on pace for his third 200 inning season in his 7 year career and has a 4:1 K/BB ratio. Plus, my guy doesn't wait until contract years to play.

If you're going to bargain hunt for pitchers (and that's what you'd be doing buying on Burnett), get someone else that will actually play and not get hurt. Aaron Harang is a much better second tier option. That being said, the Brewers should try and win. Building's great, but that Atlanta Braves built for 14 years and got one title. The Twins have been building since, what, 2000? Done them a lot of good. The Indians have built up twice in the last 10 years and have zero titles. Eventually you have to make the move to win it all.

37. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: July 04, 2008 at 07:56 PM (#2843451)

To me, the question isn't whether some of those guys should be traded, it's whether trading for Sabathia is the best use of the trading chips Melvin has. I don't believe it is. I have to think that (with the same or a similar package) he could trade for a slightly worse pitcher, but one the Brewers could have for a couple years. If I'm wrong and there is no way they could get a guy they could control for awhile, I guess trading for CC could be the way to go. I don't see why that would be the case though.

Daniel Cabrera fits that description. Plus the Orioles have other pieces the Brewers might want, such as Sherrill and Roberts. Question for Brewers fans: LaPorta and Green or Escobar for Sabathia, or Gamel and Escobar for Sherrill and D. Cabrera?

38. SouthSideRyan Posted: July 04, 2008 at 08:01 PM (#2843460)

I believe this is year 7 of "The Reds are gonna be really good really soon"

39. JoeHova Posted: July 04, 2008 at 08:12 PM (#2843474)

Daniel Cabrera fits that description.

40. meatwad Posted: July 04, 2008 at 08:23 PM (#2843483)

given that yost has tendencys to shred a bull pen they need to get a starter that will go deep into games for them consistantly. i dont see burnett doing that. adding sabithia would. of course he could just use the triple a shuttle and keep a revolving set of releivers comming up every week or so to get used up then sent down for another fresh arm. has any team ever done this?

41. Petuniaviles Posted: July 04, 2008 at 08:38 PM (#2843488)

Weird. I thought the BTF brass had already concluded that the "trade LaPorta+ for C.C. to go all-in for '08 then let both Sheets and C.C. walk, take the picks and reload for the Braun/Fielder/Hardy prime years in '11-'12" was the dominant heuristic here.

42. LargeBill Posted: July 04, 2008 at 08:39 PM (#2843491)

For those who are arguing that the package of prospects being discussed is too much for a rental I have to disagree. Looking at it from the Indians point of view, they would need to be overwhelmed to send Sabathia packing. He is pitching great currently, they would love to re-sign him and they will get 2 picks if he leaves as a free agent. Prospects like Laporta, etc have potential, but obviously no minor leaguer is guaranteed to be a success in the majors. Some (Marte?) look like sure stars as they progress through the minors and still fail to adjust to the talent level in the majors. As an Indians fan I would rather send him to St Louis for Rasmus and Anderson. However, the Cardinals haven't made that offer. Bottom line: Shapiro has the most sought after bargaining chip and he needs to ensure he gets the top return.

43. JoeHova Posted: July 04, 2008 at 09:15 PM (#2843504)

True, it does have to make sense for both teams. However, if Cleveland wants to resign him, trading him to Milwaukee would not hurt that effort much, if at all. There's no way the Brewers ink Sabathia to an extension before he becomes a free agent.

My point is that overpaying for Sabathia isn't in the long-term interest of the Brewers, imo. If the Indians want 4 guys, it stops making any sense for the Brewers. Even a package of LaPorta and Green may be far too much, though I guess we won't know that for sure for a couple years.

44. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: July 04, 2008 at 09:50 PM (#2843523)

How do you figure? I said slightly worse, not below average. Why would the Brewers want Cabrera at all, much less for Gamel & Escobar? That would be a horrendous, potentially franchise crippling trade. I'd rather trade Laporta & Green for Sabathia 100 times out of 100.

I mean, Jesus, the Brewers cut a guy before the season who had better career numbers than Cabrera.

Maybe because he's 27, still under control for a few more years, and has a ton of potential? Cabrera has basically been a league average starter every year aside from 2007, and could be a lot more if things click.

45. whoisalhedges Posted: July 04, 2008 at 09:57 PM (#2843527)

Maybe because he's 27, still under control for a few more years, and has a ton of potential? Cabrera has basically been a league average starter every year aside from 2007, and could be a lot more if things click.

We already have Dave Bush.

46. JoeHova Posted: July 04, 2008 at 10:07 PM (#2843534)

Cabrera has basically been a league average starter every year aside from 2007, and could be a lot more if things click.

So? So could any number of other guys. The Brewers are trying to win, not trade away top prospects in the vain hope that some scrub can randomly break out. As whoisalhedges said, Dave Bush and Seth McClung are already filling the scrub who could break out role in Milwaukee. If they trade their prospects, it will be for someone they feel they can count on.

47. jyjjy Posted: July 04, 2008 at 10:23 PM (#2843557)

Maybe because he's 27, still under control for a few more years, and has a ton of potential?

The whole point in making a trade for a play-off run is for the player to be good, not average with potential. Also Cabrera's only 1 more year from free agency but I doubt anyone cares much considering he's a poor mans Oliver Perez.

48. Harveys Wallbangers

Posted: July 04, 2008 at 10:31 PM (#2843580)

Joe:

Remember context:

--Sheets has a history of getting injured
--Sheets has not fared well in second halves of seasons of late
--Getting a pitcher pushes Bush to the bullpen for which he is ably equipped
--Getting Bush in the bullpen pushes Mota further down the food chain which is only a positive

The Brewers have three issues: poor fielding/mediocre hitting second baseman, bullpen comprised of questionable components, below average team OBP

Getting CC doesn't address two of those items but it indirectly addresses one by getting Dave Bush in a role for which he is better suited.

And if Ben does pull up lame on July 25th better the cost for ANYONE goes up a LOT.

Melvin is wise to consider pulling the trigger now. But you are correct in that the market has shown that grade A prospect talent has real value. The Brewers shouldn't HAVE to send Cleveland more than one grade A guy for CC.

But this is why LaPorta was drafted. The Brewers have right-handed power. He's redundant.

I have no issue with this approach.....................

49. JoeHova Posted: July 04, 2008 at 11:08 PM (#2843610)

Melvin is wise to consider pulling the trigger now.

I agree that if they are going to do it, getting the extra month is imperative. If it goes down, I hope it goes down today or tomorrow so he can travel to Milwaukee and go over scouting reports on Sunday and make the start on Monday against Colorado.

Also, if they have CC and Prince on the same team, they should call up Angel Salome so that he can shame them into getting into better shape. Then again, Kapler hasn't succeeded in doing that to Prince so far this year. However, I think Salome is even more muscular than Gabe, maybe seeing a 5'6 guy as ripped as him would motivate them. I mean, how good could Prince be if he lost some of that gut?

edit: this was Salome's physique in high school.

50. Jimmy P Posted: July 04, 2008 at 11:10 PM (#2843615)

Maybe because he's 27, still under control for a few more years, and has a ton of potential?

Wow. You wouldn't trade elite prospects for the reigning Cy Young who's back to his old form after a bad first month, but you would for a barely league average pitcher that is only one year younger? Wow. If that's the way you feel, none of us here are going to be able to convince you otherwise.

Robothal is now saying that the Dodgers are jumping into the CC derby. Considering that Andy LaRoche can't get any playing time over a bad 3B, and Matt Kemp is public enemy #1 in LA, they could win this.

51. Perros Posted: July 04, 2008 at 11:27 PM (#2843645)

...they should call up Angel Salome so that he can shame them into getting into better shape.

Judging results, I'll take a team of fat Fielders and Sabathias over football physiques any day.

Perhaps they can trade for Francouer and he can help them add 17 pounds of muscle in the offseason.

52. JoeHova Posted: July 04, 2008 at 11:39 PM (#2843670)

Fair enough, but if they can be as good as they are while they are carrying 50-100 useless pounds, wouldn't they be even better if they weren't doing that? I'm not saying they have to be supermen, but Salome supposedly got that ripped solely through cardio training and push/pull ups, which would be nice for Fielder especially. He often seems about to pass out after he legs out a double and is often seen hacking up a lung on the bench (maybe he has asthma?).

53. robinred

Posted: July 04, 2008 at 11:39 PM (#2843671)

I am generally more in the pull-trigger-on-prospect deals camp than most here, but the issue in this case is that Sabathia is almost certainly a rental. That said, I agree with HW, and would add that:

The Brewers probably don't need to beat the Cubs to make postseason; they need to beat the Cardinals and maybe one of the non-Nationals teams in the East. This makes the trade less of a gamble, IMO. I think adding Sabathia would make them the most likely WC team.

The Brewers have not been in the postseason in 26 years. Trying hard to break that string is worth some risk.

54. Crispix Attacks Posted: July 04, 2008 at 11:44 PM (#2843680)

There's no need to call up Salome and start his clock; I'm sure Frank Brooks is available to fill out their bullpen.

55. Perros Posted: July 04, 2008 at 11:53 PM (#2843702)

if they can be as good as they are while they are carrying 50-100 useless pounds, wouldn't they be even better if they weren't doing that?

Improve on Cy Young and 50 homers?

Seriously, both exhibit the influence of genetics over environment. And those genetics have delivered better-than-average results, to say the least.

Huge muscles do not equal success as they do in other sports, nor do they necessarily correspond to good health. Judgments against fat are primarily aesthetic ones.

Fielder would probably do better eating a cheeseburger or two, or at least some roasted chicken, skin included.

56. AJM Posted: July 05, 2008 at 12:00 AM (#2843717)

"Burnett isn't half the pitcher Sabathia is."

Burnett FIP 3.38. Sabathia FIP 3.29.

I think your math is off by just a bit.

He was talking about weight.

57. JoeHova Posted: July 05, 2008 at 12:34 AM (#2843783)

Huge muscles do not equal success as they do in other sports, nor do they necessarily correspond to good health. Judgments against fat are primarily aesthetic ones.

I'm not saying they need to add muscle (Fielder is supposed to be by far the strongest guy on the Brewers), I'm saying that they (or Prince, at least) could stand to lose some fat and get in better shape.

58. OCD SS Posted: July 05, 2008 at 01:12 AM (#2843841)

Joe, I'm curious on what you think a good trade for Laporta would be. Earlier we went around on Masterson or another pitching prospect, who the Brewers would get for 6 years. Now you're also down on using him for CC to bolster a playoff run. What would the fair basis for a trade be, in your opinion?

59. NTNgod Posted: July 05, 2008 at 01:25 AM (#2843868)

Weird. I thought the BTF brass had already concluded that the "trade LaPorta+ for C.C. to go all-in for '08 then let both Sheets and C.C. walk, take the picks and reload

I've been beating the "LaPorta+ for C.C. and reload the farm w/ a second straight year of six high picks" for some weeks, but I'm more BTF tin, rather than brass, I think :P

60. Darren

Posted: July 05, 2008 at 02:04 AM (#2843971)

LaPorta's no longer blocked and he's really crushing the ball. If I'm trading him for a pitcher, I want a guy I can control for a while. I don't want Masterson, he's only a pretty good (B- to B) type of prospect. I want something in the Billingsly neighborhood (and probably a bit more).

61. Dan Posted: July 05, 2008 at 02:13 AM (#2843981)

LaPorta's no longer blocked

Did I miss something?

62. Boots Day Posted: July 05, 2008 at 02:15 AM (#2843986)

I think Darren was referring to LaPorta's work as a novelist.

63. OCD SS Posted: July 05, 2008 at 02:25 AM (#2844000)

I thought he was talking about Laporta's habits of ordering laxative in bulk.

I want something in the Billingsly neighborhood (and probably a bit more).

I'm curious, is there some kind of consensus on who is worth more, 'A' type pitchers or hitters (and does defense play a role) in these types of deals? Or is it just dependent on which your team happens to have?

64. Esoteric Posted: July 05, 2008 at 02:30 AM (#2844007)

I think he was talking about LaPorta's kicking of his amphetamine habit.

65. Kyle S Posted: July 05, 2008 at 03:10 AM (#2844056)

I think he meant that LaPorta gathered an offensive rebound after attempting to challenge Josh Smith on the low block.

66. Crispix Attacks Posted: July 05, 2008 at 03:26 AM (#2844064)

I hear from Darren that LaPorta has become misshapen and needs to be reblocked into a nice crisp fedora or Panama hat. This means trading him now would be selling low.

67. JoeHova Posted: July 05, 2008 at 05:40 AM (#2844097)

Joe, I'm curious on what you think a good trade for Laporta would be. Earlier we went around on Masterson or another pitching prospect, who the Brewers would get for 6 years. Now you're also down on using him for CC to bolster a playoff run. What would the fair basis for a trade be, in your opinion?

Yeah, I guess I seem inconsistent. However, I guess I just don't think it makes much sense to trade LaPorta at this point. I don't think the Brewers will get an equal return because, for some reason, pitching seems to be much more valued than hitting.

That said, I'm not totally against trading him+ for Sabathia, I just don't know that doing it is a slam dunk. What would making the playoffs or winning a world series be worth to the franchise? And how good will LaPorta be? Those are the two questions that need to be answered. If LaPorta hits like an average 1st baseman, that's probably worth at least $10-12 million per year over 6 years. That's $72 million of value. Take out, say, $30 million of that which they will have to pay LaPorta during that time. That means (if LaPorta pans out), having him would save the team around $40 million. Is making the playoffs worth more? I don't know, possibly it would be. It seems like a really big risk though, because if they don't make the playoffs, that $40 million is down the drain.

Of course, they would get draft picks if CC left and even making the trade for Sabathia might be worth something to the franchise in terms of revenue.

68. whoisalhedges Posted: July 05, 2008 at 04:27 PM (#2844201)

Giving Brewers fans something to talk about other than '82 would easily be worth $40 million, Joe.

69. Jimmy P Posted: July 05, 2008 at 04:34 PM (#2844205)

And how good will LaPorta be? Those are the two questions that need to be answered. If LaPorta hits like an average 1st baseman, that's probably worth at least $10-12 million per year over 6 years.

That's the thing. You know CC is going to give you top 5 pitcher performance (especially if he goes to the NL). LaPorta could be a phenomenal 1B, or he could be Dallas McPherson, Travis Lee, He Sop Choi...

70. Harveys Wallbangers

Posted: July 05, 2008 at 05:40 PM (#2844231)

LaPorta is a first baseman. This outfield work is pointless. He has managed to not get himself killed but that is the extent of the positives. He has no range, and it's not going to improve over time.

The idea of moving Hart over to center is flawed and not something the club is willing to do. First, all three players would be relatively new to their positions. This creates a bevy of concerns. The defense would be weakened and the horror of 2007 is a powerful memory with the team leadership. Hart would be playing a new position and the Hall experiment showed the risks of such moves. If Braun had not begun hitting in May the team was ready to pull the plug. And the team is right-handed heavy. LaPorta compunds the issue.

Second, Melvin knows that Sheets is GONE after the season. He is NOT going to experience another lost season. PERIOD.

71. Jimmy P Posted: July 05, 2008 at 06:37 PM (#2844247)

Harvey's, I agree with you. But, CF wouldn't be new to Hart. He played 30+ games there last year.

72. Crispix Attacks Posted: July 05, 2008 at 07:19 PM (#2844274)

I have never been so convinced that a team should trade a prospect for a veteran rental at the deadline than I am that the Brewers should do this. Why? Maybe because I shudder to think of all the hype that will ensue if the Cubs win the WS EXACTLY 100 YEARS AFTER THEY LAST DID SO.

Save us, Melvin!

73. Harveys Wallbangers

Posted: July 05, 2008 at 07:28 PM (#2844279)

Jimmy:

It's still new. Hart himself has stated that he was "feeling his way around" during his stint.

That and Hart is one of the best in the league in rf. Let him focus on getting better out there.

There is no chance Milwaukee makes that position change. None.

That is stuff for folks who still think defense doesn't matter.

74. Jimmy P Posted: July 05, 2008 at 09:27 PM (#2844454)

There is no chance Milwaukee makes that position change. None.

That's the part I agree with you on.

75. Joe Bivens, Idiot Posted: July 05, 2008 at 09:57 PM (#2844528)

If they get CC, they better make sure that he and Fielder sit across the aisle from each other on airplanes. Balance, you know.

76. jwb Posted: July 05, 2008 at 10:27 PM (#2844612)

David Ortiz, Jason Giambi, and Carlos Pena have been worthless and overpaid for the last few years.

There are several things wrong with this sentence.

I was aiming for about six. I'm ok with "several." Hrbek wasn't a great player, but he was a key player on a team that won two World Series. May wasn't a great player, but he was traded for one (also two good ones and an interesting WS footnote player). I have fervently believed that the Reds have been on the cusp of greatness since I saw the Kal Daniels/Tracy Jones/Eric Davis outfield play for the Denver Zephyrs.

77. Brandon in MO (Yunitility Infielder) Posted: July 05, 2008 at 10:29 PM (#2844615)

Can Milwaukee restaurants handle having both Sabathia and Fielder around without a famine breaking out?

78. retro-shiite Posted: July 05, 2008 at 10:33 PM (#2844625)

Can Milwaukee restaurants handle having both Sabathia and Fielder around without a famine breaking out?

Well, if any class of restaurant can handle it, it's German restaurants.

I'm now envisioning Fielder and Sabathia performing in an oom-pah band at a brauhaus, outfitted in lederhosen. Heh.

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