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Tuesday, June 26, 2012

Misunderstanding leads to lineup snafu in Miami

Starring Bob Davidson!

Home-plate umpire Bob Davidson seemed to have heard Matheny say that he wanted Marte batting fifth, and he relayed the double-switch information to the Marlins with the pitcher batting fifth.

“What was explained to me was that the five-hole was what was said,” Matheny said. “The way it went down was I wrote it on the card for Freese, and at some point, the five-hole came up and the five-batter’s spot in the five-hole.

“The only thing that I can say is that [Davidson] has been doing this a whole lot longer than I have. I don’t have any doubt that he’s got no reason to change anything, and apparently something was said about the five-spot. I don’t remember that because—it wasn’t his job to watch me write it down as I said we’re going in for Freese. I think the only confusion may have been going in for Freese’s spot, and at some point five did come up. An absolute mess.”

DA Baracus Posted: June 26, 2012 at 01:59 PM | 29 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cardinals, marlins, umpires

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   1. Anonymous Observer Posted: June 26, 2012 at 02:40 PM (#4166855)
They should have used a telephone!

Oh wait...
   2. JJ1986 Posted: June 26, 2012 at 02:57 PM (#4166888)
Home-plate umpire Bob Davidson seemed to have heard Matheny say that he wanted Marte batting fifth


And he didn't think he might be wrong when the fielder who left was the one who had been hitting 7th?
   3. cardsfanboy Posted: June 26, 2012 at 03:13 PM (#4166912)
Davidson was caught on tape saying he "screwed" up to Ozzie Guillen(he in reference to Davidson, not Matheny)

Davidson is a crappy umpire to begin with, but last night his performance in the bottom of the 7th to the 9th inning really deserves an investigation by the league. There is almost no way you can watch his actions and think he was being impartial.
   4. Just a Guy Posted: June 26, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4166933)
Balking Bob has already been suspended by MLB once this year. It's almost like he's daring them to do it again.
   5. esseff Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:06 PM (#4167005)
It seems like a bit of double jeopardy that Allen Craig, the No. 5 hitter, had to leave the game in mid-inning after an out had been made, but Dsvid Freese, the No. 7, was not allowed to return when they un-did the "mistake."

Very clever, that Guillen. He forces the Cardinals to use their last position player and then with the pitcher on deck in the 10th and runners on first and second with two outs, he orders an intentional walk to force the pitcher to bat. So, a rookie pitcher pinch-hits and beats out an infield single to score the guy Guillen intentionally moved to third, and that turned out to be the winning run.

It was that kind of goofy game. Earlier, Matt Holliday ripped a hit with the bases loaded but it didn't drive in any runs.
   6. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:12 PM (#4167021)
Earlier, Matt Holliday ripped a hit with the bases loaded but it didn't drive in any runs.


How does THAT happen?
   7. cardsfanboy Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:15 PM (#4167025)

How does THAT happen?


Ball hit the runner.

It was that kind of goofy game. Earlier, Matt Holliday ripped a hit with the bases loaded but it didn't drive in any runs


The Cardinals announcers were talking about how can anyone say baseball is boring, when describing the last three innings of that game. It was a weird game to say the least. The Marlins scored 4 runs in an inning with 2 hits. The umpires strike zone consistently expanded when the Cardinals were at the plate and shrank to the size of a pill when the Cardinals had a man on the mound. (last couple innings, not the whole game) That was not a game you would have wanted to use as an example of baseball to your English buddy.
   8. just plain joe Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:34 PM (#4167064)
It was that kind of goofy game. Earlier, Matt Holliday ripped a hit with the bases loaded but it didn't drive in any runs.


I turned it off when the Marlins scored to make it 7-1; I guess I should have kept watching.
   9. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:44 PM (#4167073)
Matheny probably should have played the game under protest.
   10. boteman is not here 'til October Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4167081)
The Marlins aren't doing much better:

@FSMarlins "Best tweets with ideas to help the Marlins out of their funk - serious, funny, or superstitious will be read on air. Use #stoptheslump"
   11. AROM Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:58 PM (#4167093)
The way it went down was I wrote it on the card for Freese, and at some point, the five-hole came up and the five-batter’s spot in the five-hole.


He shouldn't have said anything, and just pleaded the fifth.
   12. boteman is not here 'til October Posted: June 26, 2012 at 05:14 PM (#4167110)
I thought the five-batter's spot IS the five-hole. What strange language is he speaking?
   13. Delino DeShields & Yarnell Posted: June 26, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4167117)
This almost exactly one year after the Joe Madden pitching change (Sam Fuld warmed up but didn't face a batter) that Davidson botched.
   14. cardsfanboy Posted: June 26, 2012 at 06:12 PM (#4167153)
I thought the five-batter's spot IS the five-hole. What strange language is he speaking?


He thought he meant position number 5(third base-- the player he is removing from the field) and not the batting lineup spot number five.


The game is tied 6-6, bottom of the ninth(Cardinals are the visitors, so they are in the field) David Freese made the last out of the previous inning(he bats seventh) one out, Matheny comes out to make a few changes, He wants to bring in a pitcher, in a double switch spot, he removes Freese from the game. He brings in Tyler Greene for second base. He moves Descalso from second to third. He brings in a pitcher(Marte) and later Guillen notices that the umpire signaled that the firstbaseman(who was batting fifth) was being replaced, so the Cardinals had to bring in Cruz to take over at first base.

   15. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: June 26, 2012 at 07:46 PM (#4167223)
He shouldn't have said anything, and just pleaded the fifth.

According to Guillen's theory on failure in baseball, he should have just DRANK the fifth.
   16. Joey B. "disrespects the A" Posted: June 26, 2012 at 07:58 PM (#4167230)
Speaking of Miami, I have to admit I'm surprised at how badly the Marlins are playing. I truly thought that this was a team that had a lot of talent on it and that they were going to play a lot better than this.
   17. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: June 26, 2012 at 08:21 PM (#4167245)
Speaking of Miami, I have to admit I'm surprised at how badly the Marlins are playing. I truly thought that this was a team that had a lot of talent on it and that they were going to play a lot better than this.


They play half their games in a stadium that thus far has a park factor similar to Coors Field, and yet they are hitting 240/309/379 as a team. That is not good.

On the other hand, they are outplaying their crappy pythag record!
   18. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: June 26, 2012 at 10:50 PM (#4167396)
The GOBs were clearly in attendance last night; it's really the only explanation for how massively Guillen's strategy backfired.

First, Craig is a pretty poor defender at first, and Cruz is quite good (at least at picking balls thrown in the dirt). In the bottom of the ninth, after this "misunderstanding", with men on first and second and one out, and Cruz at first, a double play was turned with a dreadfully short-hopped throw to first that could easily have gone into the dugout, for a game winning error; the C slash good defensive 1B that Guillen forced into the game made the snag.

And then, in the top of the tenth, as Esseff mentioned, we all found out just how fast Joe Kelly (SP) is, although I swear I saw him get a little push. and his RBI turned out to be the game winning run.

Just an unbelievable turn of events. Thanks, Bob!
   19. Sunday silence Posted: June 27, 2012 at 12:20 AM (#4167442)
Was Davidson mad at Guillen then? Is that why he called the strike zone funny? Trying to read comments on the thread with the link but not understanding exactly what was going on with Davidson over the course of the game. I sort of pretty much understand the lineup card thing.

Was Guillen trying to show up Davidson? Why the histrionics? Cause they blew or were blowing a lead?
   20. cardsfanboy Posted: June 27, 2012 at 12:58 AM (#4167451)
Was Davidson mad at Guillen then? Is that why he called the strike zone funny? Trying to read comments on the thread with the link but not understanding exactly what was going on with Davidson over the course of the game. I sort of pretty much understand the lineup card thing.

Was Guillen trying to show up Davidson? Why the histrionics? Cause they blew or were blowing a lead?


The strike zone was anti-Cardinals, in the 7th inning onwards. Until the Cardinals last at bat or two. Anything sniffing the strike zone thrown by a Marlin pitcher was called a strike. The Cardinals pitcher had to throw a fastball down the middle to get the call.
   21. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: June 27, 2012 at 01:58 AM (#4167459)
There were a couple of really bad strike zone calls that went against the cardinals, especially strikes 3 to Descalso and Carpenter in the 8th, but I think it's a bit much to say that Davidson was deliberately unfair. I think it's easier to assume he was simply incompetent.
   22. cardsfanboy Posted: June 27, 2012 at 02:23 AM (#4167462)
There were a couple of really bad strike zone calls that went against the cardinals, especially strikes 3 to Descalso and Carpenter in the 8th, but I think it's a bit much to say that Davidson was deliberately unfair. I think it's easier to assume he was simply incompetent.


The Shane Robinson strike out in the ninth was pretty bad also(the strike two call most notably)
In the seventh the strike zone disappeared for the Cardinals pitchers resulting in 4 runs off of 2 hits(and four walks) then the zone expanded for the Cardinals at bats and promptly disappeared again when the Marlins came up again. Normally I would say, "crappy umpires are inconsistent all the time and over the course of the game, calls usually even themselves out" but this time, that wasn't the case, the calls consistently for a short period of time, went against the Cardinals. Do I honestly think he was tanking on purpose, of course not, but generally incompetence of that level, is hard to do without it being deliberate.
   23. The Ghost's Tryin' to Reason with Hurricane Season Posted: June 27, 2012 at 03:16 AM (#4167464)
Matheny sounded determined to not blame Davidson. Does that come under the category of not showing up the umpire?
   24. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: June 27, 2012 at 03:47 AM (#4167467)
#22, not according to brooksbaseball. There was one pitch in that inning (sanchez, one of two should-be strikes in 13 pitches) that was a clear strike, but called a ball, and it was taken for "ball 1". The rest were very wild.

There was also one pitch from Salas that was technically a strike, but it was at the very top edge of the zone, which is never called.

And BB shows that every called strike against STL in the 9th was actually a strike. In fact, caught a break on one pitch.
   25. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: June 27, 2012 at 08:38 AM (#4167490)
They play half their games in a stadium that thus far has a park factor similar to Coors Field, and yet they are hitting 240/309/379 as a team. That is not good.


The 2012 Marlins are a case study in how to overrate a team just because they spent money in the off season. They went out and bought a lot of free agents, including a couple of famous guys that they overpaid for, and suddenly everyone forgot that improvement is measured from baseline.
   26. Blubaldo Jimenez (OMJ) Posted: June 27, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4167657)
Has anyone out on the intertubes done a pitch/fx analysis of individual umpires yet?
   27. bjhanke Posted: June 27, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4167690)
Matheny, in the STL newspaper, went through hoops to make sure that everyone understood that he wasn't blaming Davidson for ANYTHING. He blamed himself for not watching to make sure that the umpire copied on his (the official) lineup card exactly what Matheny has written on his card. The point of disconnection did indeed occur (cokes to several) when Davidson used the term five-hole to mean the hole in the lineup currently filled by the third basemen. The big problem that this caused was that Cruz, the only position player left on the bench, had to come in, empyting the bench of anyone who could play catcher, or anywhere else. On top of that, the bullpen was down to nothing but Mitchell Boggs. If Molina had gotten hurt, Cruz would have had to go play catcher, and Boggs would have had to come in to play a field position. If Motte had failed as a closer (which was close, a nice catch of a line drive prevented the Marlins from tying the score), Boggs would have had to pitch the rest of the game, no matter how long that lasted, and the Cardinals would have had to play a starting pitcher if anyone else got hurt. Managers, understandably, hate this kind of situation. But Matheny, actually, came across as someone who knows he's a rookie manager and doesn't want to get on any umpire's bad side. Besides, it's easy to stay calm when the pitcher that the snafu forced you to bat hits a single and you end up winning the game.

I give Matheny points for this. I'll bet that his behavior, taking all blame on himself for a problem that the umpire at least partially created, will help his relationships with umpires quite a lot. He could have made a stink, but chose not to, no matter how exposed he felt after Cruz had to enter the game. Every umpire in the league probably already knows that Matheny did that to help save the reputation of the umpire. In the long run, that's very important for a rookie manager. - Brock Hanke
   28. KJOK Posted: June 27, 2012 at 02:41 PM (#4167828)
Boggs would have had to pitch the rest of the game, no matter how long that lasted,


I'm pretty sure that after a few innings Matheny would have stuck Boggs in the OF and brought in a position player to pitch, instead of letting Boggs continue for the rest of the game.

   29. Sunday silence Posted: June 27, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4167909)
then why was Guillen going all beserk, obviously there was a problem in the lineups but he was totally irate. Is that just normal Guillen behavior?

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