Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Friday, November 23, 2012

Mitch Williams: Are PED penalties working?

If they all ended up with disturbing, seismicity of brotherly lovin’ neck twitches. I’d say yes.

Melky did the right thing by saying he would not take the batting title if he was eligible to win it. Then he signs a two-year deal with the Blue Jays for $16 million. He not only tested positive, but then he got a $2 million a year raise for it. That is sending the wrong message! You can cheat, and it may cost you some money, but you will more than make up for that loss with your next deal.

I believe that the only way we can truly rid the game of PEDs is to suspend the player for a full year. That will then give the opportunity to younger players who are not cheating to come up and maybe prove that they can play at the big league level. When guys start losing a full year because of their poor decisions, I believe we will see the end of it. But as long as a player knows he can cheat and only lose 50 games’ salary, and then get a raise the following year, I believe we will always have guys trying to beat the system.

Again, I tip my cap to the Giants as an organization for not activating Melky for the Postseason. That showed a ton of integrity and restraint on their part. And they were rewarded with another World Series championship.

Repoz Posted: November 23, 2012 at 08:41 AM | 25 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: media

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. adenzeno Posted: November 23, 2012 at 09:05 AM (#4308244)
I have wondered if it would be more effective to require a team to forfeit any game in which a player paticipates, who tests positive for PEDs. Would that create the peer pressure needed for a PED free game? Would MLB hide results of players on marquis teams? Just throwing this out there.
   2. AJMcCringleberry Posted: November 23, 2012 at 09:08 AM (#4308246)
If only Melky had done coke and cost his team $4 million then Mitch would think he should be rewarded.
   3. Darren Posted: November 23, 2012 at 09:08 AM (#4308247)
This sounds like an 8-year-old wrote it. Or a sportswriter.
   4. Justin T., Director of Somethin Posted: November 23, 2012 at 09:34 AM (#4308252)
How it doesn't occur to people like this, or Kruk who made the same point and was praised in some circles as an intelligent person, that Melky would have made much more than 2/16 if he had been able to play out the year performing as he had been is beyond me. Well, I know it's because they're stupid. But why so stupid?
   5. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: November 23, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4308259)
I have wondered if it would be more effective to require a team to forfeit any game in which a player paticipates, who tests positive for PEDs. Would that create the peer pressure needed for a PED free game? Would MLB hide results of players on marquis teams? Just throwing this out there.


This strikes me as impractical. It would probably work to create a "cleaner" culture around the game, though.

Lately, I've noticed a drumbeat for a) tougher, more modern testing along the lines of longitudinal (the current system is a relic of the Steroid Era) and b) a full year suspension on your first positive test. I'd be a-ok with both of these measures being passed, but at a certain point you just have to accept testing for what it is: it's not going to ever make the game "clean", just "cleaner". Making it harder to get a doctor's note for sudden onset low testosterone or ADHD at 33 years old would probably help.
   6. Ron J2 Posted: November 23, 2012 at 10:46 AM (#4308267)
#5 The Tour de France had a problem with therapeutic use exemptions. As in a huge chunk of the field had an exemption for something.

Sponsors got together and these days (with no change from the Tour itself) there are few riders with a TUE.
   7. donlock Posted: November 23, 2012 at 11:46 AM (#4308288)
Why penalize the team for something it can't control. I doubt the Giants (or Royals?) knew he was using PEDs. They are not allowed by the rules of the Players Association to test their players more often than they do.

If the Players' Union permitted more frequent testing, would this solve the problem? Would the players go for it?
   8. Tricky Dick Posted: November 23, 2012 at 12:07 PM (#4308296)
If the penalty system for PEDs resulted in zero positive tests, would the sports writers say that the system had eliminated PEDs? No, they would probably argue that the lack of positive tests indicated that the system is broken and that the PEDs usage has gone underground with designer drugs, masking agents, etc. I don't think they can have it both ways. The fact that the current system is finding PEDs users should be viewed as indicating that they system is working.

I really don't see any reason to change the penalties--if anything, too severe a penalty for the first offense is bound to create an occasional unfair result for inadvertent use. It may create more problems than it solves. As for Williams main concern, Melky getting paid too much (in Williams' view), I don't think this should be part of the consideration in setting penalties. First, it ignores the point made by No.4. Second, the Blue Jays are free to take their own risks. The Jays have to make their own evaluation as to how much of Melky's 2012 performance is due to PEDs, rather than inherent talent, and the probability that he will repeat a positive test. Some teams will always take bad gambles on free agents in a given year, and the Jay's gamble may or may not work out.
   9. vivaelpujols Posted: November 23, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4308340)
Again, I tip my cap to the Giants as an organization for not activating Melky for the Postseason. That showed a ton of integrity and restraint on their part. And they were rewarded with another World Series championship.


It must be nice being Mitch. It's like nihilism never happened.
   10. Walt Davis Posted: November 23, 2012 at 01:59 PM (#4308369)
What I find interesting about the Melky signing is that it would seem to mean at least one of the following:

a) teams don't think PEDS (or at least whatever Melky was on) have much effect. Yes, an untested Melky makes a lot more this offseason than the real one but still, two years ago Melky the FA got $1.5 M. Melky just signed for $6 M more than Jonny Gomes. And the Jays are hoping this deal will be a bargain which means they think real Melky might actually hit.

b) teams think the effects of PEDs can largely be maintained for a couple of seasons without using more PEDs.

c) teams have faith that Melky will find undetectable PEDs.

d) or the ever popular that the Jays have just made a mistake or at least decided that it's worth the gamble that Melky is just a PEDs mirage.
   11. vivaelpujols Posted: November 23, 2012 at 02:06 PM (#4308375)
I like C).
   12. Bob Tufts Posted: November 23, 2012 at 03:07 PM (#4308408)
They are not allowed by the rules of the Players Association to test their players more often than they do.


Do you want daily tests before and after games? The cost (and loss of precious bodily fluids) would be enormous.

In lieu of this regular bloodletting, I recommend the use of genetically adapted leeches to detect illegal PED's. I assume that Jeffrey Loria's DNA would suffice for this purpose.




   13. Bob Tufts Posted: November 23, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4308413)
The 1993 Phillies helped the future sports pundit careers of Williams, Schilling and Kruk. When you add in Dykstra, this team may have had more of a negative effect on MLB than the Black Sox.
   14. Random Transaction Generator Posted: November 23, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4308416)
I have wondered if it would be more effective to require a team to forfeit any game in which a player paticipates, who tests positive for PEDs. Would that create the peer pressure needed for a PED free game? Would MLB hide results of players on marquis teams? Just throwing this out there.


I think it might lead to teams becoming more proactive about making sure their players don't fail tests.
Either that means stopping them from using PEDs, or stopping MLB from finding out they used PEDs.
   15. Bitter Calculus Instructor Posted: November 23, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4308418)
[10] ????? Melky performed at a much greater than $8 mil/yr. Even if it was considered a fluke, unrepeatable, his year with the Royals was worth probably about $14m. Two years ago Melky was a replacement level player; the 1.5m was a compromise between the marginal starter Yankee version of Melky and the AAA depth Braves version of Melky. The fact that he only got $8m/yr shows that teams think that the last two years were significantly aided by steroids and that he will likely experience a large drop off.
   16. Bob Tufts Posted: November 23, 2012 at 04:32 PM (#4308445)
I think it might lead to teams becoming more proactive about making sure their players don't fail tests. Either that means stopping them from using PEDs, or stopping MLB from finding out they used PEDs.


Can you do this? Not with a CBA, NLRB and the courts.

Unless you have probable cause, no way you're putting a needle in my arm on a daily basis! I would think the Fourth Amendment is fairly clear in this regard.

You would have to claim the ahtletes are somehow so important that their rights are to be taken away with 24/7 testing. Hell, they tried to advocate drug testing of candidates in Georgia in 1997 and the courts overruled it!
   17. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 23, 2012 at 04:45 PM (#4308448)
Not sure what affect the PEDs had on Melky's performance, but there are reports that he also took a much more serious attitude toward conditioning and game preparation. He certainly looked to be in considerably better shape.

Melky having a good season might actually increase the deterrence for PED use - he will have cost himself tens of millions of dollars by using drugs he really didn't "need" to perform at a high level. Conversely, if he bombs out, he might be perceived as a player still able to cash in on a pretty decent contract based on a tainted year or two.
   18. Ron J2 Posted: November 23, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4308449)
#16 It's also worth noting that an arbitrator explicitly voided testing clauses that some teams had negotiated with players (back in the Uberroth era). Did not void the contracts, simply struck down those extra testing clauses.

This is an absolutely settled issue.
   19. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: November 23, 2012 at 05:55 PM (#4308468)
a) teams don't think PEDS (or at least whatever Melky was on) have much effect. Yes, an untested Melky makes a lot more this offseason than the real one but still, two years ago Melky the FA got $1.5 M. Melky just signed for $6 M more than Jonny Gomes. And the Jays are hoping this deal will be a bargain which means they think real Melky might actually hit.
I think the contract shows the exact opposite. A simple regressed 5-4-3 WAR projection (I call it "Dumber-than-Marcel") grades Cabrera as worthy of a much larger guaranteed contract.

+ 14 Bat + 2 Run + 18 Rep - 2 Pos - 5 Def = +27 RAR

On a two-year deal, you'd expect Cabrera to make about 2/25 to 2/30. I would have guessed a contract around 4/45-50 would be the most likely deal for a "clean" Melky Cabrera on the free agent market.
   20. Harvey Berkman Posted: November 24, 2012 at 08:44 AM (#4308597)
The 1993 Phillies helped the future sports pundit careers of Williams, Schilling and Kruk. When you add in Dykstra, this team may have had more of a negative effect on MLB than the Black Sox.


But it also spawned Darren Daulton.
   21. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 24, 2012 at 10:04 AM (#4308604)
At least it gave him something to do.
   22. donlock Posted: November 24, 2012 at 11:35 AM (#4308632)
BTW, the term is "marquee" team or "marquee" player.
   23. base ball chick Posted: November 24, 2012 at 12:00 PM (#4308638)
i notice that when fans and media get themselves all Up Set about players using PED, they never ever scream about, say, freddy galvis. after a 50 game suspension, in which his team HAD to find another guy to play his position, they just might could have found a guiy they like a LOT LOT better and freddy might could have had NO job when he got back

so mitch and gang want to suspend players for a YEAR. meaning that anyone who doesn't have a guaranteed contract is out of baseball. and any guy with a multi-year contract hurts his team a LOT more because the team loses umpty million dollars and gets NON of a player's good years.

because this way, that whatshisname guy has to make sure he uses a condom when he has sex or he might could get popped for testing positive for his wife's vaginal suppository.

truth is that what mitch and gang are not just coming out and saying is that they want anyone who tests positive for anything on the list to be immediately and permanently banned and out of baseball and all their contract forfeited. i don't get the frothing at the mouth, but they are sounding like the people who ran the temperance movement with Demon Run!!!!!

they could test the players 4 times a day/365 and if no one was positive, it would be because of designer drugs. they wouldn't be even a little happy if there was no one to scream about.
   24. DFA Posted: November 25, 2012 at 04:16 AM (#4309059)
Do you want daily tests before and after games? The cost (and loss of precious bodily fluids) would be enormous.

In lieu of this regular bloodletting, I recommend the use of genetically adapted leeches to detect illegal PED's. I assume that Jeffrey Loria's DNA would suffice for this purpose.


I don't know how often the players are tested now, but I would love random tests and a minimum of 10 tests per season and 3 per off-season. Where is the line of too often?
   25. micker17 Posted: November 25, 2012 at 09:26 AM (#4309080)
#10 the answer is (c), take currently undetectable PEDS.

If I were Melky, I'd find out what Edwin Encarnacion and Jose Bautista are using and just take that.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14!
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogDesign Room: Top 10 Logos in MLB History.
(32 - 9:29am, Apr 18)
Last: SoCalDemon

NewsblogDoug Glanville: I Was Racially Profiled in My Own Driveway
(246 - 9:26am, Apr 18)
Last: David Nieporent (now, with children)

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 4-18-2014
(2 - 9:24am, Apr 18)
Last: BDC

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread March, 2014
(883 - 9:16am, Apr 18)
Last: Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14!

NewsblogOTP April 2014: BurstNET Sued for Not Making Equipment Lease Payments
(1586 - 9:16am, Apr 18)
Last: Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October

NewsblogFletcher: Foes have slowed Trout in one category so far - steals
(2 - 9:13am, Apr 18)
Last: sinicalypse

NewsblogOrioles launch D.C. invasion with billboard near Nationals Park
(19 - 9:09am, Apr 18)
Last: Chris Needham

NewsblogNightengale: Pujols nears 500 home runs...and no one seems to care
(79 - 9:07am, Apr 18)
Last: Rob_Wood

NewsblogRobothal: What a relief! A’s could use bullpen differently than other teams
(8 - 8:22am, Apr 18)
Last: Dag Nabbit: secretary of the World Banana Forum

NewsblogGleeman: Mets minor league team is hosting “Seinfeld night”
(140 - 8:21am, Apr 18)
Last: Greg K

Jim's Lab NotesWe're Moved! (And Burst.net can bite me!)
(101 - 8:16am, Apr 18)
Last: zonk

NewsblogOT: The NHL is finally back thread, part 2
(139 - 7:58am, Apr 18)
Last: PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth)

NewsblogDaniel Bryan's 'YES!' chant has spread to the Pirates' dugout
(72 - 7:40am, Apr 18)
Last: Doris from Rego Park

NewsblogChris Resop - The Most Interesting Reliever in the World
(20 - 6:17am, Apr 18)
Last: MuttsIdolCochrane

NewsblogOT: NBA Monthly Thread - April 2014
(306 - 2:50am, Apr 18)
Last: theboyqueen

Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats

 

 

 

 

Page rendered in 0.4229 seconds
52 querie(s) executed