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Thursday, October 13, 2011

MLB.com: Rangers flex in 11th, inching closer to Series

The Rangers, after another heart-stopping game, are one win away from returning to the World Series for the second time in as many years.

Texas put itself in that position with four runs in the top of the 11th inning off All-Star closer Jose Valverde on Wednesday, setting up a 7-3 victory over the Tigers in Game 4 of the American League Championship Series at Comerica Park. Mike Napoli put the Rangers ahead with an RBI single, and Nelson Cruz, who also made the defensive play of the night, delivered the crushing blow with a three-run home run one pitch after Napoli’s go-ahead hit.

NTNgod Posted: October 13, 2011 at 03:04 AM | 65 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: game recaps, rangers, tigers

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   1. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: October 13, 2011 at 03:22 AM (#3961698)
Texas has six wins in the postseason so far. Two came in extra innings, three by one run, and the other by two runs.

But all that matters is who gets the W and who gets the L.
   2. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: October 13, 2011 at 03:28 AM (#3961708)
Washington's stupid IBB doesn't come back to haunt him. Leyland's does. Affirmative action, amirite?

I still say the Tigers send this back to Texas with Verlander taking the mound for Game 5.
   3. Cooper Nielson Posted: October 13, 2011 at 03:37 AM (#3961721)
I still say the Tigers send this back to Texas with Verlander taking the mound for Game 5.


I sure hope so. But Verlander hasn't exactly been untouchable in the postseason.

The good news is that the Tigers will send out a stronger starting pitcher than the Rangers in each of the 1, 2 or 3 games they have left.
   4. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: October 13, 2011 at 03:44 AM (#3961727)
Posted this in the chatter. Cruz was 1-4 with a HR and a walk. His post season OPS went down.
   5. Dr. Vaux Posted: October 13, 2011 at 03:48 AM (#3961732)
The Rangers are substantially better, so I'm not disappointed in the outcome so much as I am about the fact that I care even though it's silly to care. (Actually, I'm pretty mystified about the Rangers not having been favored more heavily going into the series.) Of course I still hope for a reversal, but I'm pretty sure the Rangers were the best American League team this year, and I'm also pretty sure they're the best team left in the playoffs. Reverse jinxes aside, if I'm going to put my money where my mouth is about wanting the best team to win if the post-season charade is made into such a big deal, I'm obligated to root for them in the World Series once the current unpleasantness is over. Oh, well.
   6. Walt Davis Posted: October 13, 2011 at 08:11 AM (#3961830)
The Rangers, after another heart-stopping game, are one win away from returning to the World Series for the second time in as many years.

Have fun parsing that sentence.
   7. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: October 13, 2011 at 09:04 AM (#3961841)
I went to bed after nine innings. Smart move.

All three losses were winnable games for the Tigers. But, no. Always something.

Guess what, guys? If you're not going to f@cking TRY, I'm not gonna watch. Got better things to do.

And now the nation will see (ignore, actually) a Texas-St. Louis World Series, an event even more soul-crushing than the usual Yankees-Phillies matchup. At least the Yankees and Phillies have some good players...Rangers-Cardinals? You might as well watch a Faces of Death video.

Thanks to your inept offense and clueless button-pushing, Leyland, I'm all done with baseball this year. Time for you to head out to pasture.

Go Lions! Go Wings! GO BLUE!
   8. Greg K Posted: October 13, 2011 at 09:57 AM (#3961845)
Maybe it's just because no team I cheer for (MLB or NHL) has sniffed the playoffs in years, but I find the attitudes displayed here by Tigers fans and the Red Sox fans down the stretch confusing.

The Tigers are in the ALCS! They just lost two games in extra innings and they're not even worth your time to watch one more game? It's not like Texas isn't a good team either despite the odd claim that they have no good players. Seems like a ridiculously high standard to hold a team to.

As I say, I haven't experienced sports related heartbreak in many a year so maybe I'm being too harsh on immediate reactions.
   9. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: October 13, 2011 at 12:01 PM (#3961881)
I find the attitudes displayed here by Tigers fans and the Red Sox fans down the stretch confusing

Don't conflate the two. The Red Sox are Evil Empire II -- they make the playoffs almost every year, and have two WS titles in the last seven years. For Tigers fans, a World Series is a once-in-a-generation event.

I haven't experienced sports related heartbreak in many a year so maybe I'm being too harsh on immediate reactions.

That's it. I know I'm being a sore-loser jerk, but I can't help it. This is probably the Tigers' last shot at glory for a decade or more, and to lose by such a tiny margin, to a team whose fan base consists entirely of people p!ssed off that they couldn't get Cowboys tickets...man, it hurts.
   10. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: October 13, 2011 at 12:19 PM (#3961889)
This is probably the Tigers' last shot at glory for a decade or more


This is a bizarre sentiment to me. They're certainly the closest thing to a Goliath in their division unless Joe Mauer turns out to actually be alive after all, and the playoffs are a crapshoot. I would be surprised if the Tigers didn't make another LCS within 5 years. Cabrera is signed through 2015, Verlander through 2014. Yes, there were some fluke years scattered around and some regression is to be expected, but by the same token Scherzer and Porcello both rate to be better going forward than they were in 2011. The corpse of Ordonez is the only relevant thing leaving this offseason.

They seem like clear favorites in the division going into 2012, at the very least.
   11. frannyzoo Posted: October 13, 2011 at 12:40 PM (#3961907)
The Tigers will continue to periodically win the Tallest Midget Division, and a five-game series is a microscopic smidge above crapshoot. So, sure, Detroit will be here again...but they just seem damn mediocre to me. I know, I know..injuries, but still. Texas is no '98 Yankees, either. Come to think of it, the '11 Yankees were far from the '98 Yankees, too. Maybe the AL is just finishing up their Tallest Midget League finals.
   12. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: October 13, 2011 at 12:41 PM (#3961908)
They're certainly the closest thing to a Goliath in their division...I would be surprised if the Tigers didn't make another LCS within 5 years.

This is pretty much what everyone said in the wake of 2006. "The Tigers are for real! They have tons of young pitching! They'll dominate for years to come!"

Well, all the young pitching turned out to be a mirage, their offense was mediocre, they punted away 2007 and 2009...and here we are, five years later. This is their last shot for awhile, and they've made of hash of it.

Dammit.
   13. fra paolo Posted: October 13, 2011 at 12:42 PM (#3961911)
RMc is indeed being sore-loser jerk, and giving Tigers' fans here a bad reputation, if Greg (U)K is to be believed.

In late May the Tigers were seven games out, playing .500 baseball. On 2 July, they gave up +10 runs for third time in five games. At that point I more or less thought they would fall short yet again, and that Leyland would be asked to leave after this season. (He's been in Detroit five years, and doesn't have a lot to show for a lot of money being spent.)

And now they are in the ALCS. What looked to be a lost season in early July has turned into something to be celebrated. It's not exactly a triumph against the odds, but more of a surprising turn of events. And credit goes to Dombrowski, reworking the roster enough to carry the Tigers into the playoffs.

I'm afraid if there is a pattern in the Tigers' 2006, 2009 and so far in 2011, it's the bullpen failures. If the Tigers don't hit, the bullpen can't save these games. And that's something that someone needs to fix. Why is it, with a game on the line, the Tigers' key relievers always seem to blow it?
   14. SJC in A2 Posted: October 13, 2011 at 12:43 PM (#3961912)
I'm with #10 -- great base to build on and reasons for optimism, even if you can't count on Ramon and others repeating this kind of success. And as Cooper points out, maybe the starting pitching can even keep this season alive. Although because Verlander's pitching, it's already drizzling downtown here...
   15. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 13, 2011 at 01:26 PM (#3961934)
The Tigers look all sorts of beat up and they aren't hitting the ball well at all, so I should just accept that they can't win this. But even with all that, they've lost one game 3-2 and the other two games in the 11th inning. So frustrating on so many different levels.

Going back to #13, Dombrowski's biggest failure is the lack of a bullpen. The only two useful relievers in the bullpen, unless you count Phil Coke, are Valverde and Benoit and they are being paid an arm and a leg to be in Detroit. He's also spent a good number of high draft picks on relievers with nothing to show for it.

I do think there is legitimate reasons to be optimistic going forward for the next few years. Cabrera, Verlander, Fister, Scherzer and Porcello should be enough to at least sniff the playoffs in the AL Central. Ownership will pony up for another free agent or two. We'll see.
   16. TerpNats Posted: October 13, 2011 at 01:27 PM (#3961936)
That's it. I know I'm being a sore-loser jerk, but I can't help it. This is probably the Tigers' last shot at glory for a decade or more, and to lose by such a tiny margin, to a team whose fan base consists entirely of people p!ssed off that they couldn't get Cowboys tickets...man, it hurts.
Are you confusing the Rangers with the Rays? Texas has built a solid fan base in recent years (did you hear the loudness of the crowd at the Ballpark on Monday?) and Dallas-Fort Worth is unquestionably the best all-around sports market in the Sunbelt. And while the Metroplex loves its football, much of the Cowboys love comes from outside the area, people who became fans of the franchise via TV and have never set foot in Texas. The Rangers are clearly top dog in DFW, and if the NBA was undergoing a normal season arc, right now the Mavericks might displace the Cowboys as #2.
   17. Joey B.: posting for the kids of northeast Ohio Posted: October 13, 2011 at 01:33 PM (#3961942)
I'm afraid if there is a pattern in the Tigers' 2006, 2009 and so far in 2011, it's the bullpen failures. If the Tigers don't hit, the bullpen can't save these games. And that's something that someone needs to fix. Why is it, with a game on the line, the Tigers' key relievers always seem to blow it?

The Tigers' bullpen looks pretty solid to me now. I'd say the starting pitching not named Verlander has been a bigger problem for them this year.
   18. chemdoc Posted: October 13, 2011 at 01:33 PM (#3961944)
I think that, under the circumstances, the Tigers are doing an impressive job of making these games competitive. Young's not healthy, Martinez hasn't been healthy for a couple of months, Avila isn't healthy, no Boesch, no Ordonez...and they're still *this close* to being tied 2-2 or up 3-1 in the ALCS.

RMc is being way too pessimistic, and Vaux is being Vaux.
   19. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 13, 2011 at 02:11 PM (#3961981)
:-(
   20. franoscar Posted: October 13, 2011 at 02:13 PM (#3961985)
The Tigers are great! They have a reasonably competent owner/front office and I hope they will continue to be competitive while still keeping some players around so I can recognize the team. A couple of weeks ago I was reminiscing with my friend-the-Mets-fan about the Tigers-Mets series earlier this year. Even if the Tigers lose the ALCS I enjoyed the 2nd half of the season & the postseason a lot more than he did!

I'm not fond of Texas and I hate St. Louis, but NO GOOD PLAYERS? No Fan Base? No Offense RMC, but you sound like a U of M fan!
   21. MikeinMI Posted: October 13, 2011 at 02:14 PM (#3961987)
I wasn't happy that Valverde doesn't throw 2 innings all yesr then Leyland tries it twice in three days with a save in between. I get htat you don't trust your bullpen but that's too much. Now he's cooked for today and Benoit is too. I hope JV can go all nine.
   22. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: October 13, 2011 at 02:21 PM (#3961994)
Maybe it's just because no team I cheer for (MLB or NHL) has sniffed the playoffs in years, but I find the attitudes displayed here by Tigers fans and the Red Sox fans down the stretch confusing.

The Tigers are in the ALCS! They just lost two games in extra innings and they're not even worth your time to watch one more game? It's not like Texas isn't a good team either despite the odd claim that they have no good players. Seems like a ridiculously high standard to hold a team to.

As I say, I haven't experienced sports related heartbreak in many a year so maybe I'm being too harsh on immediate reactions.


I think you got it in the last sentence. As a Sox fan I've been through surprisingly good seasons (1999), dream seasons (2007) lousy seasons (1992) and years where it just didn't happen (2010). At least in '92 by May you just shrugged your shoulders and said "yup, this team isn't doing it this year." The frustration of seeing a talented team blow what should be an insurmountable lead is a killer. It's incredibly frustrating to see a team get so close then have Lucy pull the ball away at the end because you are so emotionally involved. It's easy to be detached emotionally when you are 10 games out by Memorial day.

You're a Jays fan right? I've got to think that a year like '87 or '90 is much worse than say 1980 even though the won-loss record was appreciably better.

I can only speak for myself though I think most Sox fans feel the same way. I'd rather go through seasons like the last two where "disappointment" means 90 wins but at the same time when you are watching the team you support #### up a good thing at the very end it is incredibly frustrating.

To put it another way, as bad as it is to lose 10-0 you probably feel worse when your team loses 5-4 because you give up a walk off two run homer with two outs. In the 10-0 game by the fifth inning you know it's over and can just watch in relative peace. In the 5-4 game you are screaming at your TV and pacing (at least I am).
   23. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: October 13, 2011 at 02:23 PM (#3961997)
Texas has built a solid fan base in recent years

Oh, please. Texas finished an unexciting tenth in MLB attendance (shouldn't a defending pennant winner draw better than that?) in their little joke of a bandbox. The Tigers have a century of tradition; nobody even noticed there was a ballclub in DFW until 2005 or so.

Can't blame 'em, really: the Rangers are as dull as dishwater. The Josh Hamilton story has been beaten into the ground, and Michael Young has been an embarrassment in these playoffs. The pitching's good, yes, but they all seem interchangeable...is that Colby Harrison on the mound? Or maybe Derek Lewis? When Mike Napoli -- whose throw-out of Jackson last night may be the first time he's ever successfully thrown the ball to second base -- is the face of your franchise...well, that's just ugly.

And, so, the stage has been set for yet another Death March of a World Series, featuring two snore-inducing, unworthy teams playing the rain until well past midnight, with the occasional shot of David Boreanaz in the stands.

No, thanks. I'm outta here.
   24. JJ1986 Posted: October 13, 2011 at 02:28 PM (#3962005)
When David Napoli -- whose throw-out of Jackson last night may be the first time he's ever successfully thrown the ball to second base -- is the face of your franchise...well, that's just ugly.


Hamilton, Young and Kinsler are pretty clearly the "faces" of the franchise. Maybe Beltre too. MIKE Napoli is just a player who had an excellent season.
   25. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: October 13, 2011 at 02:31 PM (#3962010)
MIKE Napoli is just a player who had an excellent season.

See what I mean about the Rangers being interchangeable? ;)
   26. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 13, 2011 at 02:32 PM (#3962013)
Hamilton, Young and Kinsler are pretty clearly the "faces" of the franchise. Maybe Beltre too. MIKE Napoli is just a player who had an excellent season.


When David Young is one of the faces of your franchise, well, that's just ugly.
   27. Joey B.: posting for the kids of northeast Ohio Posted: October 13, 2011 at 02:36 PM (#3962019)
Did he really just say that "David" Napoli is the face of the Rangers franchise?
   28. BDC Posted: October 13, 2011 at 02:51 PM (#3962032)
sports related heartbreak

I've followed a number of different baseball teams as I've moved around the country, the 1969 Cubs and the 1977 Phillies (Davalillo, Mota) being the ones that let me know pretty young that you should never hope for anything.

After that, though, heartbreak has eluded me. The Phillies won in 1980 (and 1983 was if anything even more satisfying, given the way the regular season went). I moved to Texas and the Rangers were never competitive enough to break my heart. 2010 was clearly satisfying – first pennant, beating the Yankees. And even now, I'll echo franoscar in #20 from the other side of the field: if the Tigers come back to win the ALCS, 2011 will still have been terrific. A franchise record for victories, solidly excellent play all season long; a last-minute loss will not wipe that out.

Of course if the Rangers go on to just barely miss for the next 3 or 4 years, bitterness could start to ferment :)
   29. Shredder Posted: October 13, 2011 at 02:59 PM (#3962038)
I'm afraid if there is a pattern in the Tigers' 2006, 2009 and so far in 2011, it's the bullpen failures.
So in game one, the Tigers lose after failing to score in their last four at bats. In game two, they lose after failing to score in their last eight at bats. And last night, they got no runs over the last four at bats. And you're blaming the bullpen? This is the playoffs. Games are probably going to be close. You're gonna need to score some late runs at some point. All you can ask from your bullpen is that they give you chances to win. The bullpen has given the Tigers plenty of chances. Their offense has just choked. Right now, their strategy seems to be score a couple runs early, hopefully get a small lead, and pray like hell that they can hold it. That doesn't work against an offense with no automatic outs, and where pretty much every guy in the line up is a threat to go deep.
   30. base ball chick Posted: October 13, 2011 at 03:01 PM (#3962043)
i'm surprised at some tigres fans here

sneering at the rangers? really? i wouldn't go to astros games in the summer if there was no roof, no wonder the attendance isn't like it is up there whre it is colder

and no football fan gets baseball tickets because he/she can't get football tickets. cmon

and complaining that this is the last time for this team to have ANY chance? you wanna swap with the astros straight up? didn't think so

stop sulking - if dombrowski hires ed wade to find some cromulent relievers youse guys gonna WIN. and you woulda won it in 07 iffn your pitchers could do stuff like field which i know yeah in the AL pitchers aren't considered baseball players - blame that stupid DH rule
   31. Vance W Posted: October 13, 2011 at 03:09 PM (#3962052)
Not sure why RMc thinks that say, Brandon Inge is more intrinsically interesting than Adrian Beltre. I get it. Your team is down right now (though I wouldn't bail on my team while they had a pulse, especially a very good one like the Tigers). That's disappointing. No need to go ripping other teams and fan bases though.
   32. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: October 13, 2011 at 03:13 PM (#3962053)
And last night, they got no runs over the last four at bats.

They scored exactly one run in their last eight innings, basically on a fluke. (When you're counting on Brandon Inge to be your offense, you're in trouble, kids.) And it wasn't like they were leaving multiple runners on base again, either: they weren't getting anything at all against the Rangers' Relievers-R-Us. Pathetic.

So, I'm not watching game five, or if it gets there, game six. (Busy both days, anyway.) Game seven? Not from where I'm sitting.
   33. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: October 13, 2011 at 03:13 PM (#3962056)
When Mike Napoli -- whose throw-out of Jackson last night may be the first time he's ever successfully thrown the ball to second base -- is the face of your franchise...well, that's just ugly.


Mike Scioscia, is that you?
   34. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 13, 2011 at 03:26 PM (#3962070)
David Scioscia never should have made that trade.
   35. fra paolo Posted: October 13, 2011 at 05:24 PM (#3962204)
And you're blaming the bullpen? This is the playoffs. Games are probably going to be close. You're gonna need to score some late runs at some point. All you can ask from your bullpen is that they give you chances to win. The bullpen has given the Tigers plenty of chances. Their offense has just choked.

No, the bullpen chokes. It choked in 2006, it choked in Game 163 in 2009 and it's been choking this year. Valverde served up a home run last night to a guy who has an unfavourable home/road split, and he did it after he let the bases get loaded. Look at the bottom of the ninth of the ALDS on 3 Oct: Valverde walked two, and gave up a long fly ball to Russell Martin that could have been a walk-off home run. Bottom of the 11th, 10 Oct: Perry couldn't get an out. Yesterday, in the 11th, Valverde faced five batters and got one out. And let's not talk about Al Albuquerque's post-season.
   36. Willie Mayspedes Posted: October 13, 2011 at 05:35 PM (#3962215)
When you have arguably the best hitter in the league and undeniably the best pitcher in the league there is always hope. This has just been a brutal playoff run for the Tigers with the rainy games for Verlander and Victor Martinez hurting himself hitting a homerun??? The only thing worse was the Phillies going down and having one of their best players have a catastrophic injury on the last play of the season.

The baseball gods are angry.
   37. franoscar Posted: October 13, 2011 at 05:47 PM (#3962231)
The Tigers aren't a juggernaut. There have some good players who have played really well and, as Al K says, they could still win it all. They also had a very favorable travel schedule and they went on a great run. Valverde was shaky all year and he is still shaky, but I think the real story is that they aren't scoring runs. I wonder if maybe Leyland should have pulled Porcello before he gave up that 3rd run, but I don't know if it would have helped. Go Tigers!
   38. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 13, 2011 at 05:48 PM (#3962232)
And now the nation will see (ignore, actually) a Texas-St. Louis World Series, an event even more soul-crushing than the usual Yankees-Phillies matchup. At least the Yankees and Phillies have some good players...Rangers-Cardinals? You might as well watch a Faces of Death video.

What the....Pujols, Carpenter, Holliday, Berkman isn't enough star power for you? Then there's Hamilton, Beltre and a bunch of guys like Wilson and Kinsler who should be better known nationally but aren't yet.
   39. Shredder Posted: October 13, 2011 at 05:55 PM (#3962240)
Bottom of the 11th, 10 Oct: Perry couldn't get an out. Yesterday, in the 11th, Valverde faced five batters and got one out. And let's not talk about Al Albuquerque's post-season.
Right. They gave up all those runs after the bullpen pitched numerous effective innings, while the offense consistently failed to deliver. That's what it means when you're still playing in the 11th inning, especially in a home game last night. The offense needs to contribute. Relief pitchers can't score runs. They need someone else to do that for them. The offense has consistently come up short. If the offense had delivered a run every now and then, only to see the bullpen squander it, you'd have a point. But blaming this on the bullpen is just ludicrous. Hell, the way the Tigers are hitting in crucial situations, you could have the 100 greatest pitchers in the history of baseball in your bullpen, and all it would mean is that we'd probably still be playing game 2 right now.
   40. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 13, 2011 at 06:01 PM (#3962242)
What the....Pujols, Carpenter, Holliday, Berkman isn't enough star power for you? Then there's Hamilton, Beltre and a bunch of guys like Wilson and Kinsler who should be better known nationally but aren't yet.


This is correct. We can certainly use the ancient "LOL, Fox is gonna hate the ratings!" cliche, but the ancient "(Generic player) vs. (Generic player)! You call that playoff excitement?" cliche doesn't apply.
   41. Dr. Vaux Posted: October 13, 2011 at 06:09 PM (#3962254)
For my part, I think the Tigers had a great year, and I'm happy with it. I'm just disappointed by the final outcome, but commenting that I shouldn't let it affect me emotionally because (a) the playoffs are a crap shoot and (b) Texas is the better team anyway, both of which I think are true. Compared to the 20 years before 2006 (well, 18.5, anyway), the time since and including it has been wonderful, and I'm glad it finally happened. 2006 was more painful than this, because they lost the World Series to a clearly inferior team. Yet, once it was over, my feeling about the season was overwhelmingly positive. And I'm happy with the Tigers season this year, too.

I don't see any reason to be particularly distressed about the franchise's future prospects, either. I'll always be a pessimist, but honestly, are the Tigers in a worse position for the near future than any other team in their division? It hardly seems so. Everything might come together for Kansas City, I suppose. Minnesota would seem to have a long way to go, though Tiger fans have learned to never, never count them out. The White Sox aren't in as much disarray as some people seem to think, but they're certainly no juggernaut. Cleveland has some pieces, but how much better are they really going to be next year? None of those teams are in a better position for 2012 than the Tigers, and really, who knows what happens after that? It's a division without dominant payroll behemoths, in which the Tigers maintain the highest or second-highest payroll. As far as having a chance, what more could a fan ask for?
   42. Greg K Posted: October 13, 2011 at 06:34 PM (#3962273)
I can only speak for myself though I think most Sox fans feel the same way. I'd rather go through seasons like the last two where "disappointment" means 90 wins but at the same time when you are watching the team you support #### up a good thing at the very end it is incredibly frustrating.

To put it another way, as bad as it is to lose 10-0 you probably feel worse when your team loses 5-4 because you give up a walk off two run homer with two outs. In the 10-0 game by the fifth inning you know it's over and can just watch in relative peace. In the 5-4 game you are screaming at your TV and pacing (at least I am).

Oh I agree 100%. I'm not saying a fan shouldn't be heart-broken. I just don't get the "these guys are bums, I can't stand watching them" kind of heartbroken.

When I've had my dreams dashed by a team I usually feel a mix of frustration, sadness, and pity (both for myself and the players). Maybe it's just me but coming so close and then losing makes me feel more sympathetic to the players, not angry at them.

It's not the visceral, negative emotional reactions immediately following loses that confuse me, but the anger directed at the players and the team.

EDIT: I guess it says more about me and how much I prefer sadness to anger than anything else.
   43. Greg K Posted: October 13, 2011 at 06:37 PM (#3962276)
When David Napoli -- whose throw-out of Jackson last night may be the first time he's ever successfully thrown the ball to second base -- is the face of your franchise...well, that's just ugly.

Probably been covered already, but MIKE Napoli threw out 36% of runners this season and had only one passed ball (only 500 innings caught, but still). Whatever else he has been in the past (and is likely to be in the future), it's hard to look at Napoli's 2011 season as anything other than a strong defensive one.
   44. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: October 13, 2011 at 06:49 PM (#3962285)
Oh I agree 100%. I'm not saying a fan shouldn't be heart-broken. I just don't get the "these guys are bums, I can't stand watching them" kind of heartbroken.

When I've had my dreams dashed by a team I usually feel a mix of frustration, sadness, and pity (both for myself and the players). Maybe it's just me but coming so close and then losing makes me feel more sympathetic to the players, not angry at them.

It's not the visceral, negative emotional reactions immediately following loses that confuse me, but the anger directed at the players and the team.

EDIT: I guess it says more about me and how much I prefer sadness to anger than anything else.


Your edit is my default position most of the time too. The last couple of weeks of the season were brutal though. I don't put much stock in "they aren't playing hard" type stuff because I think these guys all work hard but man the Sox looked like a team mailing it in.

I can't imagine, as RMc is suggesting, not watching or rooting though. As pissed as I was, as much as I really didn't believe in them, I was still watching and rooting desperately.
   45. The Good Face Posted: October 13, 2011 at 06:50 PM (#3962286)
What the....Pujols, Carpenter, Holliday, Berkman isn't enough star power for you? Then there's Hamilton, Beltre and a bunch of guys like Wilson and Kinsler who should be better known nationally but aren't yet.


Eh, it's just sore loser talk, which makes no sense considering Detroit hasn't even lost. They've got the league's best pitcher going on full rest tonight and have been in every single game. It's not like Texas has been facerolling them or anything.

With respect to the star power point though, it's possible that this Texas team could win the World Series without a future HOFer on the roster. Beltre might have a shot at some milestone numbers if he ages really well, but is probably a borderline guy if he doesn't make them. Kinsler has an outside shot at ~60 WAR if he can stay healthy and productive into his mid-late 30s, but he's both a 2B and has an injury history despite not being 30 yet. Josh Hamilton has the talent but probably missed too many years and is too injury prone. Elvis Andrus is good and still super young, but unless he starts hitting more, he'll probably never sniff the hall. None of the pitchers look likely, although I suppose there's like a 1% chance Derek Holland turns into Tom Glavine or something.
   46. Kurt Posted: October 13, 2011 at 07:01 PM (#3962292)
the usual Yankees-Phillies matchup

Wait, this matchup has happened exactly as many times in my lifetime as Detroit-St. Louis has, right?

And, so, the stage has been set for yet another Death March of a World Series, featuring two snore-inducing, unworthy teams playing in the rain until well past midnight

This seems like an odd reason for the rest of us to prefer Detroit to Texas.
   47. base ball chick Posted: October 13, 2011 at 07:04 PM (#3962294)
like i said on the wrong thread - youse guys missed evan grant (dallas morning news) explaining on the radio to jim bowden that the reason that napoli is finally any good is because he been following Clubhouse Character Person Leader mike young around "like a little puppy dog" and yes that is actually verbatim

fascinating
   48. Joey B.: posting for the kids of northeast Ohio Posted: October 13, 2011 at 07:13 PM (#3962302)
Valverde was shaky all year.

Sorry, but this just isn't true. The only way anyone can seriously say this is if they're using Mariano Rivera as the standard, and that's not really fair. We may never see another Rivera again in our lifetime.

Valverde may have been somewhat shaky this year in non-save situations, but in save situations he has been freaking outstanding.
   49. SoSH U at work Posted: October 13, 2011 at 07:18 PM (#3962306)
Wait, this matchup has happened exactly as many times in my lifetime as Detroit-St. Louis has, right?


Unless you're over two but less than five, it's happened as many times in anyone's lifetime. Well, except those folks who have seen more Cards-Tigers World Series than Yanks-Phils (people between the ages of 43-61 and anyone 77 or older.
   50. Vance W Posted: October 13, 2011 at 08:00 PM (#3962340)
like i said on the wrong thread - youse guys missed evan grant (dallas morning news) explaining on the radio to jim bowden that the reason that napoli is finally any good is because he been following Clubhouse Character Person Leader mike young around "like a little puppy dog" and yes that is actually verbatim

fascinating


Lisa, remember when Jose Cruz Sr. was "the most underrated player in baseball" so long that actually became overrated. That pretty much explains Michael Young.
   51. base ball chick Posted: October 13, 2011 at 08:08 PM (#3962350)
vance

cruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuz was there when i was a kid - he was popular but not great. STILL popular. fans had a FIT that he was removed as 1st base coach - and he really wasn't worth anything

the media really REALLY likey michael young i think because they see him as a "team first" guy - all those position changes, deferring to a-fraud, etc. although i am not real too sure why he's won a gold glove - checks it out - oh, high BA. got it. too bad mo vaughn got robbed, hunh?
   52. Mike Emeigh Posted: October 13, 2011 at 08:14 PM (#3962356)
Washington's stupid IBB doesn't come back to haunt him.


Could have, but Gene Lamont picked the wrong time to get aggressive.

-- MWE
   53. Booey Posted: October 14, 2011 at 02:34 AM (#3962959)
With respect to the star power point though, it's possible that this Texas team could win the World Series without a future HOFer on the roster. Beltre might have a shot at some milestone numbers if he ages really well, but is probably a borderline guy if he doesn't make them. Kinsler has an outside shot at ~60 WAR if he can stay healthy and productive into his mid-late 30s, but he's both a 2B and has an injury history despite not being 30 yet. Josh Hamilton has the talent but probably missed too many years and is too injury prone. Elvis Andrus is good and still super young, but unless he starts hitting more, he'll probably never sniff the hall. None of the pitchers look likely, although I suppose there's like a 1% chance Derek Holland turns into Tom Glavine or something.



No mention of Michael Young? Don't you think a shortstop with a .304 lifetime average, decent power, a batting title, six 200 hit seasons and 7 all star appearances has at least an outside shot at making the Hall?
   54. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: October 14, 2011 at 02:49 AM (#3962977)
No mention of Michael Young? Don't you think a shortstop with a .304 lifetime average, decent power, a batting title, six 200 hit seasons and 7 all star appearances has at least an outside shot at making the Hall?


Very outside. His path is the Johnny Damon route, stay healthy enough to make a run at 3,000 with the odd post season heroics. Otherwise he's a guy with ~2,500 hits, a sub-.800 OPS and an OPS + of just over 100. There's a positional difference in his favor but that feels like Garrett Anderson to me.
   55. TerpNats Posted: October 14, 2011 at 03:23 AM (#3963008)
Up to, say, 1990 or so, how many teams have won World Series without a single Hall of Famer on its roster?
   56. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: October 14, 2011 at 03:44 AM (#3963041)
Up to, say, 1990 or so, how many teams have won World Series without a single Hall of Famer on its roster?


2. 1981 Dodgers and 1984 Tigers.

edit: 1988 Dodgers get in on a technicality, as Don Sutton pitched in 16 games for them, but not in the post season.

edit edit: Till 1990, only 2 WS losers don't have a HOFer: 1944 Browns and 1945 Cubs.
   57. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: October 14, 2011 at 03:54 AM (#3963051)
From 1990 on, it's a different story.

Teams without slam dunks:

1990 Reds - Hopefully Larkin
1993 Phillies - Probably Schilling
1997 Marlins - Brown and Sheffield are qualified, but it may be until the vets for them.
2002 Angels - this generation's 1981 Dodgers, no one obvious nor deserving.
2005 White Sox - Get in on the Sutton technicality (Thomas)

Anything after 2006 is a lot of pure speculation (Tulowitzki? Longoria? Howard? Hamels? Lincecum?)
   58. JoeHova Posted: October 14, 2011 at 03:54 AM (#3963052)
One would hope Trammell and Whitaker will eventually get into the HOF through the Veteran's Committee. Nobody from the Dodgers seems to have a great case but maybe Scioscia makes it as a manager someday.
   59. McCoy Posted: October 14, 2011 at 04:00 AM (#3963055)
According to STATS, the last pitcher to throw 133 pitches in the playoffs was Mark Prior of the Chicago Cubs, who threw the same number in a 2003 NL division series game against Atlanta. …



This is why I hate Dusty Baker so much.
   60. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: October 14, 2011 at 04:01 AM (#3963056)
Nobody from the Dodgers seems to have a great case but maybe Scioscia makes it as a manager someday.


Or Baker.

Trivia time: Name the 3rd LCS manager who played for the 1981 Dodgers.
   61. JoeHova Posted: October 14, 2011 at 04:04 AM (#3963059)
That is good trivia.
   62. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 14, 2011 at 04:16 AM (#3963070)
2. 1981 Dodgers and 1984 Tigers.


Sparky Anderson and Lasorda are both in, although of course the question specified "on the roster."
   63. Booey Posted: October 14, 2011 at 04:25 AM (#3963076)
1990 Reds - Hopefully Larkin

Based on voting history and patterns, Larkin will almost surely make it next year or the year after.

1997 Marlins

If Sheffield doesn't make it, it will only be because of his Balco connections, in which case you could add the 2002 Giants to the list as well. Kent isn't a lock, and we have no idea how the voters are gonna react to Bonds.

The 1984 Tigers have got to have the most borderline guys without an actual HOFer than any other team ever. Trammell, Whittaker, Evans, Parrish, Morris...
   64. base ball chick Posted: October 14, 2011 at 04:27 AM (#3963077)
verlander threw 133 pitches in a 2-1 game desperately trying to hold on because the only 2 good relief pitchers weren't available - and it's thre LCS

prior threw the 133 pitches in sept - NOT a championship game - and actually, checking it out - he threwover 129 pitches 4 of his 6 sept starts and the other 2 were 119 and 123
   65. McCoy Posted: October 14, 2011 at 04:47 AM (#3963089)
Prior threw his in game 3 of the LDS. Which was on October 3rd. At the time the series was tied 1-1 and the Cubs would go on to lose game 4 thus forcing a game 5.

For even more fun and hilarity Dusty had Prior throw 116 pitches 5 days later in a game that the Cubs won 12-3. The Cubs had an 8-0 lead after 3 innings, 11-0 lead after 5 innings, and a 12-2 lead after 6 innings. Yep, that is right Prior gave up 2 runs and threw 21 pitches in the 6th to go over 100 pitches for the game and Dusty decided, what the hell, let's send him out there again for the 7th. Dusty was the king of crossing his fingers and praying for one more inning out of his starter.

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