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Sunday, January 15, 2012

MLB.com: Wainwright expresses admiration for Tebow

ST. LOUIS—Hours before taking the field against the New England Patriots on Saturday night, Tim Tebow found himself the center of discussion in the Cardinals’ interview room. Yes, these days it seems as if there is no setting that the Broncos quarterback can’t effectively infiltrate.

Putting his Southeastern Conference allegiance aside, Adam Wainwright spent several minutes expressing his admiration for Tebow, particularly for the fearless the University of Florida product shows in expressing his religious faith in a public forum.

“I am obsessed with Tim Tebow,” Wainwright said. “I’m not afraid to say it. It’s almost embarrassing to us athletes that this much emphasis is put on Tim Tebow because that means we aren’t living our lives as we should. If we did that more often, the way he is living wouldn’t be as big a story. I’m so proud of him for living out his faith.”

Tripon Posted: January 15, 2012 at 03:07 PM | 193 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cardinals, rockies

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   1. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: January 15, 2012 at 04:04 PM (#4037426)
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
- Jesus
   2. valuearbitrageur Posted: January 15, 2012 at 04:19 PM (#4037434)
How much farther would Tebow have taken the Broncos if he was Muslim?

I get the feeling Allah isn't as easily satisfied with mediocrity as some gods are...
   3. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4037440)
The whole Tebow mania thing is fascinating to me. I think the backlash stems largely from (a) his over-coverage. I think sports fans hate when a player gets more coverage than he warrants for his on-field accomplishments, like say Brett Favre in the twilight of his career. Tebow has massively received more coverage than he warrants for what he actually is - a mediocre QB at best who got his team into the second round of the playoffs. Its when people complain an athlete or story is "stuffed down our throats."

But (b) I think a lot of the backlash stems from his religion. And its not from atheists, but from people who begin "I'm a Christian too, but..." And I'm an atheist, so I could be totally wrong, but I think some of it stems from a discomfort by a sizeable portion of mainstream people who consider themselves Christian but not religious when religion begins to impede their regular life. Like Christianity is supposed to be this thing they think about on Sundays, or when someone dies, but they have a hard time coming to terms with the idea its supposed to transcend their entire life. The people who are full board Christians, who think God DOES interfere with our daily lives, perhaps even determining football outcomes - that makes more sense to me I guess than a God who interferes with all those events in the Bible, but then 2000 years later simply stops meddling. I don't mean to bescmirch anyone who believes that, but it just seems like a way to say "well, I believe in Christianity, but I don't REALLY believe in all of Christianity."

Okay, go to town with that!
   4. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4037445)

But (b) I think a lot of the backlash stems from his religion. And its not from atheists, but from people who begin "I'm a Christian too, but..." And I'm an atheist, so I could be totally wrong, but I think some of it stems from a discomfort by a sizeable portion of mainstream people who consider themselves Christian but not religious when religion begins to impede their regular life. Like Christianity is supposed to be this thing they think about on Sundays, or when someone dies, but they have a hard time coming to terms with the idea its supposed to transcend their entire life. The people who are full board Christians, who think God DOES interfere with our daily lives, perhaps even determining football outcomes - that makes more sense to me I guess than a God who interferes with all those events in the Bible, but then 2000 years later simply stops meddling. I don't mean to bescmirch anyone who believes that, but it just seems like a way to say "well, I believe in Christianity, but I don't REALLY believe in all of Christianity."


Well, the idea that God picks winners in Football games is a little silly.

But, there is a great quote from G.K. Chesterton. It goes something like:

"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried."

Lot's of people embrace the easy parts of Christianity, then ignore the hard parts.
   5. salvomania Posted: January 15, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4037451)
As long as he wins 20, I don't give a #### who Wainwright obsesses over.
   6. JE (Jason) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4037452)
Tim Tebow has received so much coverage that Derek Jeter trekked to Foxboro where he was spotted in the stands holding an autographed baseball and shouting, "Look at me! Look at me!"
   7. I Am Not a Number Posted: January 15, 2012 at 04:57 PM (#4037453)
Tebow is an avatar for the culture wars between the red and blue states. Any success he has is a "win" for the evangelicals and the role their particular deity plays in their day-to-day lives, especially on gridirons across the country. Any failure he suffers is a "win" for those who oppose the aggressivesness of evangelicalism, be they atheist or otherwise.

Tim Tebow has willingly elected to portray himself in such a way that all that is accessible is the caricature. As such, sober discussions about his on-field abilities will be difficult, conflated as they are by everything else this willing lightning rod brings to the conversation.
   8. Repoz Posted: January 15, 2012 at 05:00 PM (#4037456)
As long as he wins 20, I don't give a #### who Wainwright obsesses over.

And has a 3.16 ERA to go along with it!
   9. Greg K Posted: January 15, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4037460)
But, there is a great quote from G.K. Chesterton. It goes something like:

As I have long suspected snapper is actually Stephen Fry.

That guy can't go one novel, documentary, film, or comedy sketch without referencing Chesterton. Though to be fair he's got some dandies.
   10. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 15, 2012 at 05:10 PM (#4037463)
Tim Tebow has willingly elected to portray himself in such a way that all that is accessible is the caricature.


Or, Tim Tebow has elected to live his life independent of what most of us ######## think, caricturization be damned.

I'm a Catholic. I find Tim Tebow to be a thoroughly impressive young man. Not because he's public in his faith. But because, as far as I can tell (and if there were evidence to the contrary, I have no doubt such information would have been Deadspun to us already), his day-to-day actions are entirely consistent with what we should admire in all humans, regardless of faith (or lack thereof). He's humble. He's hard working. He seems to be respected by all who actually know him. And he gives a tremendous amount of his time and money to help those less fortunate, in a way most of us only pay lip service to.

He ain't Jesus. But unlike so many individuals with whom I share Christianity with (myself included all too often), he's actually doing his damnest to adhere to Jesus' actual teachings, rather than just the convenient (or fabricated) ones.

   11. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: January 15, 2012 at 05:17 PM (#4037467)
I'm a Catholic. I find Tim Tebow to be a thoroughly impressive young man. Not because he's public in his faith. But because, as far as I can tell (and if there were evidence to the contrary, I have no doubt such information would have been Deadspun to us already), his day-to-day actions are entirely consistent with what we should admire in all humans, regardless of faith (or lack thereof). He's humble. He's hard working. He seems to be respected by all who actually know him. And he gives a tremendous amount of his time and money to help those less fortunate, in a way most of us only pay lip service to.
I'm an emphatically former Catholic, and evangelicals generally annoy the hell out of me, but I agree with this 100%.
   12. Srul Itza At Home Posted: January 15, 2012 at 05:17 PM (#4037468)
they have a hard time coming to terms with the idea its supposed to transcend their entire life.


Well, didn't the Nazarene say, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's". Seems to me he had in mind some kind of division. See also, Post # 1.

In any event, we now know that JC finds Brady a whole lot cooler the Tebow.
   13. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: January 15, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4037471)
Or, Tim Tebow has elected to live his life independent of what most of us ######## think, caricturization be damned.
This seems like the exact opposite of reality to me.

If Tim Tebow didn't care what we think, he would be doing as Jesus instructed: Praying in secret. Instead, he's out there in the synagogues and the streets, loving to be seen of men.
   14. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: January 15, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4037472)
as far as I can tell (and if there were evidence to the contrary, I have no doubt such information would have been Deadspun to us already)

Jerry Sandusky was a fine,upstanding man in the public eye for 35 years, then poof! Not saying Tebow has any skeletons, just that let's not make a 23 yo our moral icon.

When he does the Tebow after he throws an interception, then I'll have a lot more respect.
   15. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 05:23 PM (#4037473)

Well, the idea that God picks winners in Football games is a little silly.


I guess I don't see why. If the Broncos winning games makes Tebow a larger figure, which in turns helps spread the Word, why wouldn't God intervene? If God works in mysterious ways, how on earth are we supposed to know what he deems important and unimportant in the grand scheme of things?

FWIW, other than the fact he plays for a team I hate, I think Tebow is a breath of fresh air for the NFL. He's an upstanding citizen, he brings a different style of football to the game, and while his impact on winning is definitely overstated, there is probably a larger role in "intangibles" in the NFL than in a game like baseball.
   16. Tripon Posted: January 15, 2012 at 05:29 PM (#4037476)


I guess I don't see why. If the Broncos winning games makes Tebow a larger figure, which in turns helps spread the Word, why wouldn't God intervene? If God works in mysterious ways, how on earth are we supposed to know what he deems important and unimportant in the grand scheme of things?


So does that mean, that the team that Tim Tebow opposes, teams that are comprised to Christian followers, who also pray to God means that their prayers don't mean to squat?
   17.     Hey Gurl Posted: January 15, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4037477)
This whole thing is so silly. He's an outspoken Christian in a highly Christian-dominated culture. Keep your persecution complex to yourself.
   18. The elusive Robert Denby Posted: January 15, 2012 at 05:45 PM (#4037481)
As a Broncos fan, I'd be more impressed if he could complete half his passes and not take half an hour to move through his reads. Or throw a spiral.
   19. Randomly Fluctuating Defensive Metric Posted: January 15, 2012 at 05:46 PM (#4037482)
I'm a relaxed Catholic. I think Tebow is a great person, but right now he's not a good quarterback. If he gets the completion percentage up around 54 percent and can scramble for a sixty yard average, then we can talk. Denver should give him full offseason as starter, working with the offense, getting plays tailored toward his skill-set, and sign a viable backup option in case there is no improvement. Here's what bothers me about the criticism. Jokes are fine. I love a good joke. I don't like the jokes that immediately associate Catholics with people who are not socially progressive but are narrow-minded. Seeing Tebow as a symbol of sorts for that type of thinking, when in reality the kid has not made any political statements, I think that's unfair. Let's not cast athletes as societal symbols. And just because someone is down with Jesus does not make them hardcore conservative. I'm trying to be a writer and musician and Greenwhich Village is my favorite place to hang, you can see why someone like me would be offended by that.
   20. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: January 15, 2012 at 05:55 PM (#4037484)
when in reality the kid has not made any political statements
Didn't he do a Superbowl commercial for Focus on the Family?
   21. Gaelan Posted: January 15, 2012 at 06:00 PM (#4037489)
This whole thing is so silly. He's an outspoken Christian in a highly Christian-dominated culture. Keep your persecution complex to yourself.


It is absurd to describe any aspect of modern culture to be christian-dominated. Absurd. Talk about a persecution complex.
   22.     Hey Gurl Posted: January 15, 2012 at 06:06 PM (#4037491)
Riiight. It is so difficult being a Christian in Denver! Much easier being a Muslim or (gasp) an atheist.
   23. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: January 15, 2012 at 06:11 PM (#4037492)
I don't like the jokes that immediately associate Catholics with people who are not socially progressive but are narrow-minded.
Tebow isn't Catholic though, is he? Thought he was Baptist or something more evangelical.
   24. Eddo Posted: January 15, 2012 at 06:13 PM (#4037493)
Is Tebow really associated with Catholics, specifically? He's really more a symbol of Evangelicals for those who are vehemently against him, right?

EDIT: Coke to Benji Gil Gamesh.
   25. Eddo Posted: January 15, 2012 at 06:16 PM (#4037494)
It is absurd to describe any aspect of modern culture to be christian-dominated. Absurd. Talk about a persecution complex.

Other than, you know, "In God We Trust", and Christmas being a federal holiday, and so forth.

I don't oppose these things. I am a Catholic, and feel lucky that I have nothing holding me back in this country when it comes to my faith and background. And part of that is because we are a Christian-dominated society.
   26. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: January 15, 2012 at 06:43 PM (#4037512)
It is absurd to describe any aspect of modern culture to be christian-dominated.
Nearly eighty percent of Americans are Christian. No other religion makes it as high as two percent.

link
   27. Bob Tufts Posted: January 15, 2012 at 06:48 PM (#4037516)
What people do not understand is that due to the way he was brought up, his outspoken and openness in expressing his religion is part of who he is and how he approaches life - including football. Other players use mental techniques to prepare - religion serves this purpose for Tebow.

If you took his religion away from his upbringing, I highly doubt he would be able to prepare for games in a focused and successful manner. It helps him be calm, be ready for what is thrown at him on the field and deal with success and faliure. Without this means of generating confidence, he would need to develop another coping skill set.

In my opinion, he's no Sid Luckman!



   28. CraigK Posted: January 15, 2012 at 06:59 PM (#4037522)
And the fact that a presidential candidate's better off saying that he supplied children to Jerry Sandusky than he is coming out as anything other than a strong Christian.
   29. Lassus Posted: January 15, 2012 at 07:01 PM (#4037523)
It is absurd to describe any aspect of modern culture to be christian-dominated.

Wrong, Gaelan. Ridiculously so.

Also, I like Tim Tebow solely because the football experts hated him all the way from his first game through losing his second playoff game ever.
   30. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 15, 2012 at 07:10 PM (#4037529)
Jerry Sandusky was a fine,upstanding man in the public eye for 35 years, then poof! Not saying Tebow has any skeletons, just that let's not make a 23 yo our moral icon.


I didn't do anything of the sort. From what I've seen of the young man, I've been very impressed. He's not perfect, of course, but simply because Kirby Puckett turned out to have some some serious character issues* does not mean that folks who use their sports earnings to fund construction of children's hospitals are just as likely to be POS human beings as the guy who spends his off-field time populating maternity wards.

* I didn't use Sandusky because, let's face it, the vast majority of Americans had never heard of the ###### until we found out he was a pedophile. The spotlight wasn't exactly white hot.

Tebow isn't Catholic though, is he? Thought he was Baptist or something more evangelical.


Yes, he's an Evangelical Protestant. I'm not sure Matt was claiming he was Catholic or simply relating his experience as a Catholic and how it compares.

   31. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 07:26 PM (#4037533)
Tim Tebow has willingly elected to portray himself in such a way that all that is accessible is the caricature. As such, sober discussions about his on-field abilities will be difficult, conflated as they are by everything else this willing lightning rod brings to the conversation.


This is what I think as well, though the only evidence I see is that he hasn't elected to criticize his portrayal. Also, #### the evangelicals.

It is absurd to describe any aspect of modern culture to be christian-dominated.


Utterly disagreed.
   32. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 07:28 PM (#4037536)
Didn't he do a Superbowl commercial for Focus on the Family?


Yep.

Focus on the Hypocrisy.
   33. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 07:37 PM (#4037543)
It is absurd to describe any aspect of modern culture to be christian-dominated. Absurd. Talk about a persecution complex.

Gaelan is right on this one.

Our current culture emphasizes materialism, consumerism, and sex, anytime anyway you want it. These are about as far from Christian ideas as you can get.

The vast majority of Americans are privately Christian, but the prevailing media and cultural climate is anything but Christian.
   34. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 07:39 PM (#4037545)
the prevailing media and cultural climate is anything but Christian


is a long way from

It is absurd to describe any aspect of modern culture to be christian-dominated.
   35. Eddo Posted: January 15, 2012 at 07:44 PM (#4037546)
Our current culture emphasizes materialism, consumerism, and sex, anytime anyway you want it. These are about as far from Christian ideas as you can get.

The vast majority of Americans are privately Christian, but the prevailing media and cultural climate is anything but Christian.

snapper, your argument is more that modern culture is far from being religion-dominated. And you're absolutely right. But framing it as "not Christian-dominated" is a bit misleading. If you were to look at the subset of American culture that includes only the religious parts, it is decidedly Christian-dominated.

And that's fine. Like people congregate into communities, states, nations, etc. So really, any country is likely to have its religious culture dominated by one religion.
   36. JE (Jason) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 07:47 PM (#4037548)
when in reality the kid has not made any political statements

Didn't he do a Superbowl commercial for Focus on the Family?

Oh, the humanity!
   37. Lassus Posted: January 15, 2012 at 07:53 PM (#4037551)
Drew hits it, snapper. You're not agreeing with what was said, just something else.
   38. Something Other Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:03 PM (#4037558)
Putting his Southeastern Conference allegiance aside, Adam Wainwright spent several minutes expressing his admiration for Tebow, particularly for the fearless the University of Florida product shows in expressing his religious faith in a public forum.

“I am obsessed with Tim Tebow,” Wainwright said. “I’m not afraid to say it. It’s almost embarrassing to us athletes that this much emphasis is put on Tim Tebow because that means we aren’t living our lives as we should. If we did that more often, the way he is living wouldn’t be as big a story. I’m so proud of him for living out his faith.”
Oh, #### this bullsh!t. Just once I want to see one of these self-absorbed, bloviating ######## give up something that hurts, just a little bit. I want to see ONE of them write the annual check for half the salary that makes him one of the richest men in the world to Child Fund, the Red Cross, or his own ####### charity. Hell, make it half his salary AFTER taxes.

Jesus wants you to keep children from starving to death, you self-important, kneeling, crossing, sky-kissing m@therf@cker.
   39. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:04 PM (#4037560)
Drew hits it, snapper. You're not agreeing with what was said, just something else.


I don't think so.

Let's look at some "classic" Christian ideas. Things that were agreed upon, w/o dispute, by every denomination (Catholic or Protestant) 100 years ago.

1) Sex outside of marriage is immoral

Today, the idea of an adult virgin is a punchline in the culture.

2) Contraception is immoral

This is considered a fringe, almost illogical belief.

3) Homosexual sex is immoral

Viewed as tantamount to bigotry and racism in the popular culture

4) Marriage is meant to be forever

Divorce has moved from being a source of scandal, to an absolute norm

The only traditional view that's clinging to life is opposition to abortion. And that's barely half the allegedly overwhelmingly Christian population that holds to a view that was undisputed for 1950 years of Christianity.
   40. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:06 PM (#4037563)
The vast majority of Americans are privately Christian, but the prevailing media and cultural climate is anything but Christian.

Which explains why Andy Dalton is the focus of weekly ESPN stories and numerous threads on a baseball website.
   41. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:08 PM (#4037565)
Oh, #### this bullsh!t. Just once I want to see one of these self-absorbed, bloviating ######## give up something that hurts, just a little bit. I want to see ONE of them write the annual check for half the salary that makes him one of the richest men in the world to Child Fund, the Red Cross, or his own ####### charity. Hell, make it half his salary AFTER taxes.

Jesus wants you to keep children from starving to death, you self-important, kneeling, crossing, sky-kissing m@therf@cker.


Because if someone doesn't rise to the full call of Christ they're equivalent to the worst lying, cheating, stealing, womanizing, low-life out there.
   42. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:09 PM (#4037567)
Oh, the humanity!
I guess this is supposed to be some sort of sarcastically dismissive rebuttal, so:

Focus on the Family is a de facto right wing extremist political organization with a veneer of religion. Some of their focuses are abolishing the right to choose, denying equal rights to gays, outlawing pornography, spending American taxpayer money to prop up the government of Israel, promoting the teaching of creationism in schools, denying global warming, school prayer, and so forth.

Wikipedia says that their founder claimed that Obama's presidency would lead to: "mandated homosexual teachings across all schools; the banning of firearms in entire states; the end of the Boy Scouts, home schooling, Christian school groups, Christian adoption agencies, and talk radio; pornography on prime-time and daytime television; mandatory bonuses for gay soldiers; terrorist attacks across America; the nuclear bombing of Tel Aviv; the conquering of most of Eastern Europe by Russia; the end of health care for Americans over 80; out-of-control gasoline prices; and complete economic disaster in the United States, among other catastrophes."

These are the people who criticize Sponge Bob Square Pants as promoting "the homosexual agenda".
   43. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:18 PM (#4037575)
As for the idea that there's a "Christianity" who has had monolithic ideas for 1950 years and only recently deviated from it, Christ <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 16:17-18&versi>said</a> that the way people would know that Tim Tebow is a Christian is when he drinks a deadly poison without being hurt. Other than that, Christianity has had a vast range of ideas on virtually everything, including the social crap that is somehow being foisted as the heart of Christianity. As if Jesus said "don't take the pill, slut".
   44. Eddo Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:20 PM (#4037577)
snapper, your four points are descriptive of most religions, are they not? An equally-true statement is that American culture is not Islam-dominated.
   45. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:23 PM (#4037582)
As for the idea that there's a "Christianity" who has had monolithic ideas for 1950 years and only recently deviated from it, Christ said that the way people would know that Tim Tebow is a Christian is when he drinks a deadly poison without being hurt. Other than that, Christianity has had a vast range of ideas on virtually everything, including the social crap that is somehow being foisted as the heart of Christianity. As if Jesus said "don't take the pill, slut".

Nice rhetorical flourish. Much easier for you than actually finding a major Christian Church that actually disagreed on any of these ideas before the 20th century.
   46. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:26 PM (#4037586)
snapper, your four points are descriptive of most religions, are they not? An equally-true statement is that American culture is not Islam-dominated.

Most orthodox religions, yes.

But, of course, you wouldn't expect a country in which 80% of the population self-identify as Christians to be Islam dominated? Would you?

The reality is that the modern cultural imperative is radical individual autonomy. The "god" of modern man is his own desires.
   47. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:30 PM (#4037591)
And? So what? Christ had nothing to say about birth control or homosexuality or abortion or whatever. These simply are not fundamental parts of his teachings.
   48. Eddo Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:32 PM (#4037594)
Of course not, snapper. But American culture (and policy) is not, and was never intended to be, dominated by any religion.
   49. SouthSideRyan Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:34 PM (#4037596)
http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7455943/believing-tim-tebow

This from Rick Reilly, who hates everyone.
   50. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:38 PM (#4037599)

So does that mean, that the team that Tim Tebow opposes, teams that are comprised to Christian followers, who also pray to God means that their prayers don't mean to squat?


Of course. There's nothing in Christianity that teaches "all your prayers will be answered." People still die, despite the prayers of their loved ones.

I'm not saying God is intervening in Broncos games because Tebow prays harder/better than everyone else, but if you believe in an omnipotent, omnipresent being (which I don't) who makes shrubbery talk, makes it rain frogs, and splits bodies of water, I don't see why its so difficult to believe it can intervene in a football game with some sort of master plan in mind.

But I think mainstream Christians are uncomfortable with that thought (and also because the spokespeople for that kind of talk is the likes of Pat Robertson) and instead like to think of God as a distant being who did things 2000 years ago or maybe when people die, but is gone fishin' the rest of the time.
   51. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:39 PM (#4037601)
And? So what? Christ had nothing to say about birth control or homosexuality or abortion or whatever. These simply are not fundamental parts of his teachings.

As interpreted by every major Christian group for 1900 years they were. And this is not stuff that came up in the Middle Ages.

All those behaviors were prevalent in the Roman/Greek classical world, and Christian leaders spoke against them starting in the 1st century.

Of course not, snapper. But American culture (and policy) is not, and was never intended to be, dominated by any religion.

Not dominated by a religion, but informed by a common morality.
   52. Bob Tufts Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:41 PM (#4037605)
When I see debates like this, I always refer to South Park.

First, Father Maxi:

"No I didn't! All that's dead are your stupid laws and rules! You've forgotten what being a Catholic is all about. This... book. You see, these are just stories. Stories that are meant to help people in the right direction. Love your neighbor. Be a good person. That's it! And when you start turning the stories into literal translations of hierarchies and power, well... Well, you end up with this. People are losing faith because they don't see how what you've turned the religion into applies to them! They've lost touch with any idea of any kind of religion, and when they have no mythology to try and live their lives by, well, they just start spewing a bunch of crap out of their mouths!"

and Gary from "All about the Mormons" is a worhtwhile read:

"Look, maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up, but I have a great life. and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don't care if Joseph Smith made it all up, because what the church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that's stupid, I still choose to believe in it. All I ever did was try to be your friend, Stan, but you're so high and mighty you couldn't look past my religion and just be my friend back. You've got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. Suck my balls."
   53. Eddo Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:45 PM (#4037608)
Not dominated by a religion, but informed by a common morality.

This is moving the goalposts, though. The issue that was brought up is with Tebow's religion, not his morality. Many, many, many athletes are moral people, and liked for it, and there's very little backlash for "not being a bad person".
   54. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:47 PM (#4037611)
Be a good person.

Well, yeah, but this is where it all breaks down. What does that mean?

If you let people interpret it themselves, they'll say they can cheat on their wife (b/c they "fell in love"), lie, steal, whatever, and still consider themselves a "good person".
   55. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:48 PM (#4037612)

This is moving the goalposts, though. The issue that was brought up is with Tebow's religion, not his morality. Many, many, many athletes are moral people, and liked for it, and there's very little backlash for "not being a bad person".


I was talking about the founding of the US, not Tebow. The founding assumed no common religion (i.e. no single Christian state Church), but it did assume a common Christian morality.
   56. Eddo Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:51 PM (#4037617)
OK, snapper. Thanks for the clarification.
   57. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:51 PM (#4037618)

If you let people interpret it themselves, they'll say they can cheat on their wife (b/c they "fell in love"), lie, steal, whatever, and still consider themselves a "good person".


Yea, its a good thing religion keeps people from rationalizing away bad behavior.
   58. JE (Jason) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:56 PM (#4037624)
Focus on the Family is a de facto right wing extremist political organization with a veneer of religion. Some of their focuses are abolishing the right to choose, denying equal rights to gays, outlawing pornography, spending American taxpayer money to prop up the government of Israel, promoting the teaching of creationism in schools, denying global warming, school prayer, and so forth.

Wikipedia says that their founder claimed that Obama's presidency would lead to: "mandated homosexual teachings across all schools; the banning of firearms in entire states; the end of the Boy Scouts, home schooling, Christian school groups, Christian adoption agencies, and talk radio; pornography on prime-time and daytime television; mandatory bonuses for gay soldiers; terrorist attacks across America; the nuclear bombing of Tel Aviv; the conquering of most of Eastern Europe by Russia; the end of health care for Americans over 80; out-of-control gasoline prices; and complete economic disaster in the United States, among other catastrophes."

These are the people who criticize Sponge Bob Square Pants as promoting "the homosexual agenda".

Instead of taking 15 minutes of your life to write that partisan opus, why didn't you simply spend 30 seconds to watch the completely benign ad?

EDIT: And when did decades of bipartisan support for the US-Israel relationship become so outrageous?
   59. Spahn Insane Posted: January 15, 2012 at 08:59 PM (#4037626)
It is absurd to describe any aspect of modern culture to be christian-dominated. Absurd.

As evidenced by the lofty percentage of non-Christians who get elected to public office in the United States. Portajohns at Pitchfork are less full of sh1t than you are.
   60. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: January 15, 2012 at 09:06 PM (#4037630)
As interpreted by every major Christian group for 1900 years they were.
So what? These "interpretations" have zero backing in the words of Jesus. Zero.
Instead of taking 15 minutes of your life to write that partisan opus, why didn't you simply spend 30 seconds to watch the completely benign ad?
A "completely benign ad" focusing on abortion, which the backers of the ad want to outlaw, is not remotely benign except when viewed through a lens of naivety. But in any case, the claim I was attempting to rebut was that Tim Tebow has not made any political statements. An ad for Focus on the Family is, in and of itself, an extreme political statement. As for the Israel question, same statement, plus the fact that I didn't say it was an "outrage".
   61. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 09:12 PM (#4037633)
As evidenced by the lofty percentage of non-Christians who get elected to public office in the United States. Portajohns at Pitchfork are less full of sh1t than you are.

Except for Jews, who apparently don't count as non-Christians in your view.

A quick Google search suggests there are 13 Jewish Senators and 27 Representatives. Given that Jews are <3% of the population, it certainly doesn't seem like Americans have any issue voting for non-Christians.
   62. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 09:19 PM (#4037641)
So what? These "interpretations" have zero backing in the words of Jesus. Zero.

How do you know? All his direct disciples seemed to think they did. Apostles and people who were taught directly by the Apostles.

The Didache, which dates from the late 1st century or early 2nd:

contains the commandments against murder, adultery, corrupting boys, sexual promiscuity, theft, magic, sorcery, abortion, infanticide, coveting, perjury, false testimony, speaking evil, holding grudges, being double-minded, not acting as you speak, greed, avarice, hypocrisy, maliciousness, arrogance, plotting evil against neighbors, hate, narcissism and expansions on these generally, with references to the words of Jesus.

   63. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: January 15, 2012 at 09:23 PM (#4037646)
LOL. The Didache? You're seriously bringing up non-canon fanfic? Come on, you should at least bring up Paul, and try to ignore the fact that he never even met Jesus.
   64. JE (Jason) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 09:23 PM (#4037647)
But in any case, the claim I was attempting to rebut was that Tim Tebow has not made any political statements.

Barely. In any event, it's child's play compared to this.
By the way, I am pro-choice but have no problem with Tebow and his mom embracing life as they see it.
   65. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: January 15, 2012 at 09:26 PM (#4037651)
2) Contraception is immoral

This is considered a fringe, almost illogical belief.

3) Homosexual sex is immoral

Viewed as tantamount to bigotry and racism in the popular culture
You were using this to make a different point, but those two current stances by the culture are to be celebrated.
   66. greenback calls it soccer Posted: January 15, 2012 at 09:28 PM (#4037654)
it certainly doesn't seem like Americans have any issue voting for non-Christians.

Wait a minute, isn't the problem with Mitt Romney that he's not Christian enough?
   67. ray james Posted: January 15, 2012 at 09:50 PM (#4037669)
If you let people interpret it themselves, they'll say they can cheat on their wife (b/c they "fell in love"), lie, steal, whatever, and still consider themselves a "good person".


This is baloney. There's an extensive secular literature that deals with issues of morality and the social contract (like, the US Constitution, for instance). You don't need to invoke the supernatural to convince people to teat each other fairly and honorably.
   68. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 15, 2012 at 10:06 PM (#4037679)
Focus on the Family is a de facto right wing extremist political organization with a veneer of religion. Some of their focuses are abolishing the right to choose, denying equal rights to gays, outlawing pornography, spending American taxpayer money to prop up the government of Israel, promoting the teaching of creationism in schools, denying global warming, school prayer, and so forth.

Wikipedia says that their founder claimed that Obama's presidency would lead to: "mandated homosexual teachings across all schools; the banning of firearms in entire states; the end of the Boy Scouts, home schooling, Christian school groups, Christian adoption agencies, and talk radio; pornography on prime-time and daytime television; mandatory bonuses for gay soldiers; terrorist attacks across America; the nuclear bombing of Tel Aviv; the conquering of most of Eastern Europe by Russia; the end of health care for Americans over 80; out-of-control gasoline prices; and complete economic disaster in the United States, among other catastrophes."

These are the people who criticize Sponge Bob Square Pants as promoting "the homosexual agenda".


Instead of taking 15 minutes of your life to write that partisan opus, why didn't you simply spend 30 seconds to watch the completely benign ad?

I watched the Focus on the Family ad, and I can't see what the fuss is about, either, but OTOH I'm sure that the Nation of Islam or what's left of the Communist Party could produce an equally bland and inoffensive ad if they ever decided it was in their interest to do so.

Which would prove exactly what about the Nation of Islam or the Communist Party, other than that they hired a good PR and Marketing specialist? Wingnuts don't always put their game face on when they're presenting themselves outside the wingnut community, but that doesn't mean that they're not still wingnuts.

Oh, and I don't have anything against Tim Tebow, and if he wants to make a public show of his religious beliefs he's no better or no worse than the hundreds of other athletes I've seen make similar gestures over the past 40-odd years. Ain't no big thing one way or the other----but just win, baby.
   69. ray james Posted: January 15, 2012 at 10:11 PM (#4037682)
Not dominated by a religion, but informed by a common morality.


Yes. The common morality was based on ideas that sprang from The Enlightenment, leavened with, at that time, a uniquely American independent spirit. The Enlightenment, as you will recall, was highly dubious of organized religion, as were most of the intellectual wing of the founding fathers. Thomas Paine was basically an atheist. Being scientists, Franklin and Jefferson, if they were alive today, would probably be atheists or agnostics like most of their present day brethren. Adams ascribed to no particular established religion but was nominally a Christian, and open to contrary evidence. Here's some quotes:

"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst." Thomas Paine


"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."
John Admas


"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin


"We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ."
Thomas Jefferson


"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." James Madison


The founding Fathers, if you had to describe them as a group, were deists in the sense that they could not imagine the origins of the universe without invoking god, but were also much more trustful of reason than faith, and if they were alive today, knowing what we know now we didn't know then, most of them would be atheists and agnostics.

I read a quote about religious faith, that the invocation of an almighty and merciful god, and the prospect of an afterlife, springs from man's fear of death. I agree with that.
   70. ray james Posted: January 15, 2012 at 10:16 PM (#4037687)
Wait a minute, isn't the problem with Mitt Romney that he's not Christian enough?


Well, they elected Obama and he's a muslim.
   71. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 10:17 PM (#4037688)
snapper, your argument is more that modern culture is far from being religion-dominated. And you're absolutely right. But framing it as "not Christian-dominated" is a bit misleading. If you were to look at the subset of American culture that includes only the religious parts, it is decidedly Christian-dominated.
I don't see how his statement is "misleading." If modern culture is secular, then by definition it isn't Christian-dominated. The argument that Christianity is the dominant religion (or set of religions) among people who take religion seriously seems pretty obviously true, but I don't see how it's remotely responsive.

Indeed, if this culture were really "Christian dominated," then Tebow's overt Christianity wouldn't be so notable.
   72. Eddo Posted: January 15, 2012 at 10:34 PM (#4037695)
I don't see how his statement is "misleading." If modern culture is secular, then by definition it isn't Christian-dominated. The argument that Christianity is the dominant religion (or set of religions) among people who take religion seriously seems pretty obviously true, but I don't see how it's remotely responsive.

Indeed, if this culture were really "Christian dominated," then Tebow's overt Christianity wouldn't be so notable.

It's misleading in that you could use any religion in place of Christianity in snapper's statement, and it would be true. It's subtly implying that poor Christianity is not dominant, in favor of some other lesser religion, when snapper's arguments were much more telling of a culture that isn't overtly controlled by any religion.

And you'll note I even said that our culture is not Christian-dominated.

   73. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 15, 2012 at 10:45 PM (#4037697)
If modern culture is secular, then by definition it isn't Christian-dominated. The argument that Christianity is the dominant religion (or set of religions) among people who take religion seriously seems pretty obviously true, but I don't see how it's remotely responsive.

Indeed, if this culture were really "Christian dominated," then Tebow's overt Christianity wouldn't be so notable.


Maybe a better way of putting it would be to say that the official face of American culture pays superficial homage to religion in general and to Christianity more than any other religion, but when you get below the surface and see how our institutions act in real life, our everyday culture as reflected in government, business and media is overwhelmingly secular. There are a few exceptions to this, but they're mostly fighting an uphill battle and winning victories that are likely to prove temporary at best.

The problem facing serious Christians** and other people with devout religious faith is that the secular world's many temptations are usually just too damn much fun to resist, and all the marketing's on the side of the Devil.*** The best that they can really hope for in the long run is that the mainstream secular culture leaves them alone in places like Utah, rural Pennsylvania, Brooklyn, etc.

**Meaning people whose professed religious beliefs shape the way they actually live their everyday lives---I'm not talking about the infinite variants of Reverend Ike and Bruce Barton.

***So to speak; snapper may sound a bit apocalyptic about this, but there's a fair amount of objective truth in his observations about the trend lines

   74. Srul Itza At Home Posted: January 15, 2012 at 10:57 PM (#4037702)
2) Contraception is immoral

This is considered a fringe, almost illogical belief.


As it should be.

3) Homosexual sex is immoral

Viewed as tantamount to bigotry and racism in the popular culture


As it should be.
   75. Srul Itza At Home Posted: January 15, 2012 at 10:59 PM (#4037704)
The only traditional view that's clinging to life is opposition to abortion. And that's barely half the allegedly overwhelmingly Christian population that holds to a view that was undisputed for 1950 years of Christianity.


Someone could use a history lesson.
   76. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 11:18 PM (#4037708)
3) Homosexual sex is immoral

Viewed as tantamount to bigotry and racism in the popular culture



As it should be.


No one is so intolerant as the proponents of "tolerance". Pretty soon you'll have an inquisition of your very own to root out heretical ideas.
   77. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 11:22 PM (#4037711)

Someone could use a history lesson.


So, you want to name one Christian denomination that held abortion was not a sin prior to the 1960's?
   78. Lassus Posted: January 15, 2012 at 11:23 PM (#4037713)
3) Homosexual sex is immoral

Viewed as tantamount to bigotry and racism in the popular culture


Oh snapper. You're so wrong.

It IS bigotry.
   79. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2012 at 11:30 PM (#4037718)
Oh snapper. You're so wrong.

It IS bigotry.


No, it's not.

It is no different than saying that unmarried heterosexual sex is sinful. Is that bigotry? Or saying polygamy is sinful. Is that bigotry?

Bigotry is a condemnation of a person, not a condemnation of an action.

But in any case, my original argument was not over specific issues of morality, but over the lack of Christian dominance in our culture.

I would think that the fact that a holding what has been a core tenet of Christianity for two millenia is considered bigotry by some, proves my point.
   80. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: January 15, 2012 at 11:36 PM (#4037721)
I would think that the fact that a holding what has been a core tenet of Christianity for two millenia is considered bigotry by some, proves my point.

By that standard, wouldn't your earlier contention that, "[o]ur current culture emphasizes materialism, consumerism, and sex, anytime anyway you want it" be refuted by the existence of Tebow-mania?
   81. Lassus Posted: January 15, 2012 at 11:44 PM (#4037727)
I would think that the fact that a holding what has been a core tenet of Christianity for two millenia is considered bigotry by some, proves my point.

I was in the catholic church for 18 years. We were taught the core tenets. No one taught us "NO GAY SEX". That they were against it doesn't make it a core tenet. Neither does how badly you want it to be make it so either.
   82. Tuque Posted: January 15, 2012 at 11:45 PM (#4037728)
Oh, the offseason.

I can't wait until actual baseball starts up again.
   83. Spahn Insane Posted: January 16, 2012 at 12:02 AM (#4037731)
3) Homosexual sex is immoral

Viewed as tantamount to bigotry and racism in the popular culture

As it should be.

No one is so intolerant as the proponents of "tolerance".


What, exactly, is "intolerant" in the post you're responding to?
   84. Spahn Insane Posted: January 16, 2012 at 12:06 AM (#4037732)
It is no different than saying that unmarried heterosexual sex is sinful. Is that bigotry?

No, provided you're not focusing solely on unmarried sex by heterosexuals. And indeed, you're just as opposed to unmarried sex by heterosexuals as you are to unmarried sex by gays. So, let the gays marry, and sex in the confines of their relationships will cease to be sinful.

Wait--what's that you say? Gays marrying is sinful in and of itself? Gee, I'd never have guessed you felt that way, given your principled, non-bigoted opposition to all extramarital fornication. Guess it's just their tough $hit there's no path to salvation for them.

I mean, this argument's been had 12 billion times on this site, but bigotry is what it is. Sorry if that hurts your feelings, dude.
   85. Spahn Insane Posted: January 16, 2012 at 12:11 AM (#4037735)
Pretty soon you'll have an inquisition of your very own to root out heretical ideas.

No, we'll leave that to certain religious institutions, which are much better at it.
   86. Spahn Insane Posted: January 16, 2012 at 12:17 AM (#4037739)
A quick Google search suggests there are 13 Jewish Senators and 27 Representatives. Given that Jews are <3% of the population, it certainly doesn't seem like Americans have any issue voting for non-Christians.

Sure, Americans in certain parts of the country. And I'd say Judaism is rather unique in what inroads it's made; how many Muslims are in Congress? (Believe the answer's "one," and he's been the subject of all sorts of smears from the far right merely by virtue of his faith.) How many out-and-proud atheists or agnostics?

In any case, there is virtually no place in this country where merely *being* a Christian is a disqualifier for elected office. The same cannot be said of, well, pretty much any other faith (or absence of faith).
   87. Howie Menckel Posted: January 16, 2012 at 12:50 AM (#4037744)

Lots of anger and hatred on this thread.

I'm a boring moderate, and find it creepy.
   88. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: January 16, 2012 at 12:58 AM (#4037746)
Snapper, are you familiar with the work of John Boswell? Any comment?
   89. ray james Posted: January 16, 2012 at 09:04 AM (#4037799)
What, exactly, is "intolerant" in the post you're responding to?


I think the point snapper is making is that, by calling him a bigot for disapproving of homosexuality, that constitutes a form of bigotry in itself.

What I find ironic about snapper is his stance on homosexuality, which abides by current Catholic doctrine, and the Catholic church's own tolerance of some very virulent homosexual practices, like the homosexual rape of young boys by members of the clergy. This tolerance went all the way up the ladder, to bishops, some cardinals, even the current day pope.

Snapper, are you aware that a lot of Catholic clergy are practicing homosexuals?

   90. Greg K Posted: January 16, 2012 at 09:18 AM (#4037803)
1) Sex outside of marriage is immoral

No one's brought it up but this one I'd dispute depending on what is meant by "outside of marriage".

In many places in early modern Europe sex before marriage was perfectly acceptable (for both society at large and ecclesiastical courts that dealt with sexual infractions and how to deal with children born to unmarried mothers...not to mention what to do about the mother).

Of course that's not to say attitudes towards pre-marital sex were similar to today's. But in many communities parents, society, and the church had no problem with young people having sex before they were married, or even formally engaged. So long as there was a reasonable expectation that marriage was in the cards.
   91. Rants Mulliniks Posted: January 16, 2012 at 09:38 AM (#4037807)
Jerry Sandusky was a fine,upstanding man in the public eye for 35 years, then poof! Not saying Tebow has any skeletons, just that let's not make a 23 yo our moral icon.


Agree 100%. If people want to admire Tebow's ability (or luck) to rattle off comeback wins, fine, but its a bit premature to be holding up a 23 year old millionaire as a paragon of virtue.

And I agree with Gaelan, we do not live in a Christian-dominated culture at all. Whether the vast majority of us self-identify as Christians doesn't really factor into it.
   92. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: January 16, 2012 at 10:27 AM (#4037822)
My problem with Tebow isn't his religious beliefs, nor the way he expresses them (though I am somebody that believes you shouldn't put your religious beliefs in somebody else's face). My problem with him is that I think he is not a good pro QB, and that people are taking a small sample size (about 2/3 if a season), including an unusual number of narrow victories and an extremely weak division, and thinking that this is evidence that he is a good QB. Denver is not a very good team, and he is not a legitimate starting QB in the NFL.

The best thing you can say about Tebow during the team's successful run for about eight weeks is that Tebow doesn't turn the ball over. He has no margin for error - if he throws a pick, he is incapable of turning it around. The Patriots exposed him in their regular season game in Denver. In the final three regular-season games, and the two playoff games, his record: 1-4, 49-120, 3 TDs, 4 INTs. He's terrible, can't throw, doesn't read defenses well, doesn't make good decisions. I'm not sure he's any better than Kyle Orton. Or Matt Cassel. Or Ryan Kirkpatrick.
   93. dave h Posted: January 16, 2012 at 10:36 AM (#4037827)
If Snapper's list in #39 are the core tenets of Christianity, then I feel pretty confident that religion will slowly become less important in our lives. As it is now, while religion does not dominate every facet of culture, it does dominate some. For instance, a majority of Americans would not vote for an atheist for president, more than any other category (woman, black, gay, other religions). Poor Mr. Tebow is not being persecuted because he's a devout Christian. He's being attacked because he doesn't realize many people find it rude to evangelize when he's on a national stage for a different purpose, and because he's an overhyped, shitty quarterback.
   94. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 16, 2012 at 11:10 AM (#4037845)
The best thing you can say about Tebow during the team's successful run for about eight weeks is that Tebow doesn't turn the ball over. He has no margin for error - if he throws a pick, he is incapable of turning it around. The Patriots exposed him in their regular season game in Denver. In the final three regular-season games, and the two playoff games, his record: 1-4, 49-120, 3 TDs, 4 INTs. He's terrible, can't throw, doesn't read defenses well, doesn't make good decisions. I'm not sure he's any better than Kyle Orton. Or Matt Cassel. Or Ryan Kirkpatrick.

All of which probably means that the Broncos can get the Redskins' next two #1 draft picks for him. He'd be a perfect fit for Snyder and the Shanahans.
   95. SoSH U at work Posted: January 16, 2012 at 11:26 AM (#4037855)
Agree 100%. If people want to admire Tebow's ability (or luck) to rattle off comeback wins, fine, but its a bit premature to be holding up a 23 year old millionaire as a paragon of virtue.


Remember that one time when that one guy who we thought was good did something bad. Yeah, that must mean all people who do good things are, at heart, ####### evil.

You guys want to pride yourself on your cynicism, fine, though I hope you don't criticize Joey B's attitude when some guy suddenly starts hitting the ball with more authority. Me, I see a kid who works his ass off, is respected by his teammates, turns the other cheek when criticized, spends his time and his money on charitiable endeavors and brings in terminally ill people to spend each weekend of the football season with him. And I'm not going to reserve judgment because, ineveitably, his true demonic nature has got to surface.

None of this makes him perfect. It does give him a pretty good head start on the NFLer whose main offseason contributions to the population are additions to it.

   96. Flynn Posted: January 16, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4037864)
Tim Tebow seems like a nice young man. I'm sure he'll make a fine tight end someday.

Also, preachy Catholics, you and your ilk would do better to obsess more over the altar boy your priest just sodomized than what two consenting adults do. The Catholic Church is the Super Adventure Club of religions.
   97. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 16, 2012 at 11:39 AM (#4037865)
Remember that one time when that one guy who we thought was good did something bad. Yeah, that must mean all people who do good things are, at heart, ####### evil.

Sally Jenkins' interview with Joe Paterno
   98. Rants Mulliniks Posted: January 16, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4037876)
Remember that one time when that one guy who we thought was good did something bad. Yeah, that must mean all people who do good things are, at heart, ####### evil.


All I'm saying is that he's human, and I have a problem "worshipping" any human. He certainly does seem like a sincerely decent person, but the overt religiosity turns me off. The concept of a hero is deeply flawed IMHO.
   99. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: January 16, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4037878)
and brings in terminally ill people to spend each weekend ...with him


Agreed. The comparisons to Michael Jackson are uncanny.
   100. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 16, 2012 at 12:02 PM (#4037882)
The best part of this thread is that a majority of posters are correct and disagree.

Relatively Christianity is dominant in the US and it is not even close to what is next (unless I suppose consumerism counts, then Christianity is second). At the height of the anti-Muslim post 9/11 craze a survey was done where almost no one wanted their daughter to marry a Muslim, and even then fewer wanted her to marry an Atheist.

In absolute terms however Christianty's role is shrinking in the US, with its dominance fading slowly but surely. It is happening world wide (with the occasional swing the other way). You can't tredline the future, so I doubt it goes to zero (or near there), but it seems to be heading down for the near future.

Teebow seems like a fine young man (who I disagree with on many things, but I suspect I also agree with on some things), a great athelete, and a so-so QB. he is not my role model, because I don't think any athelete should be anyone's role model, Charles B and I agree on that. I am amused by the fervor about him, and can see both sides. I don't care for open displays of religion (or many things I guess), but he is not real onnoxious about it so whatever.
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