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Monday, July 23, 2012

MLB: Braves, Cubs agree on deal involving Ryan Dempser

Ah, the sweet smell of panic in the summertime…

The Cubs and Braves have agreed on a trade that will send right-hander Ryan Dempster, the Major League ERA leader, to Atlanta, a source confirmed to MLB.com on Monday.

Young hurler Randall Delgado could potentially head to Chicago in return.

The 35-year-old Dempster, who totes a 2.11 ERA, is signed through the end of this season. The two-time All-Star has won 10 or more games in each of the past four seasons and is 5-4 this year. He has recorded a quality start in 10 of his 15 outings and has surrendered more than four runs in just one appearance.

The Braves signed Delgado, a native of Panama, as an amateur free agent in 2006. The 22-year-old is 4-9 with a 4.42 ERA this season.

Here’s to teams that mortgage their future for flukey half-season rentals!

Depressoteric Posted: July 23, 2012 at 02:47 PM | 151 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: atlanta, braves, chicago, cubs, panic move

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   101. zonk Posted: July 24, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4190804)
I guess I must have missed something. It was stated that he was mad about being blindsided, and may not approve the trade as a result, a feeling I find perfectly reasonable (if he has the right to approve a trade, it should come before it's announced, not after. If the Cubs/Braves can't provide that bit of common courtesy, then #### them). And the reaction to his reaction is precisely why players ought to be pissed about this. Ryan Dempster has a no-trade provision, but woe is him if he actually exercises it (I felt the same way years ago when McGriff got all sorts of #### for not wanting to come to Chicago).


Hey- that's fine... I'm not suggesting (not that there would be any way) to unilaterally revoke his earned rights... but as a fan, that means precisely diddly to me. If he wants to gum up the works, then the fan reaction will fall where it will.

If he doesn't want to be booed, trashed on message boards, radio, etc -- then, well, maybe that ought to factor into his decision.
   102. SouthSideRyan Posted: July 24, 2012 at 12:38 PM (#4190820)
zonk, Dempster doesn't start until Wednesday. It's been less than 24 hours. Perhaps you're overreacting a tad?
   103. zonk Posted: July 24, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4190835)
zonk, Dempster doesn't start until Wednesday. It's been less than 24 hours. Perhaps you're overreacting a tad?


It's important to set the expectations tone early... I don't want Dempster to feel "blindsided" if he does end up starting for the Cubs on Wednesday.
   104. SoSH U at work Posted: July 24, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4190837)
Hey- that's fine... I'm not suggesting (not that there would be any way) to unilaterally revoke his earned rights... but as a fan, that means precisely diddly to me. If he wants to gum up the works, then the fan reaction will fall where it will.

If he doesn't want to be booed, trashed on message boards, radio, etc -- then, well, maybe that ought to factor into his decision.


Fine. And I'll defend the fans' right to act foolish, though I will continue to criticize the decision to.

   105. zonk Posted: July 24, 2012 at 12:57 PM (#4190845)
Fine. And I'll defend the fans' right to act foolish, though I will continue to criticize the decision to.


Why is it acting foolish?

The Cubs suck and Dempster is 36. The Cubs have a chance to get some future value for something that right now, does little more than make the team a possibility to sniff 70 wins. I accept that he has the right to reject a trade via fairly negotiated work rules... fine and dandy. To the extent letting him know "So long and thanks for all the fish" is the way I (and hopefully most other fans) feel -- what's wrong with that?
   106. SoSH U at work Posted: July 24, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4190874)
Why is it acting foolish?


I think it's silly to boo a player whose decided to exercise his hard-earned right to keep playing baseball for your team.
   107. Brian C Posted: July 24, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4190875)
But getting outraged at a guy who's simply exercising a right he's earned is?

Where'd I say that? I specifically said that Dempster deserved the benefit of the doubt right now. zonk is acting childish, but that has nothing to do with what I said.
   108. Spahn Insane Posted: July 24, 2012 at 01:26 PM (#4190881)
There's nothing wrong with it (EDIT: "it" being that referred to in 105), and I agree that Dempster has been on notice he'd be on the block since he starting pitching like a tradeable commodity in his walk year (a year in which it was quickly obvious the Cubs wouldn't be going anyplace), but the Cubs can't have been operating on the assumption that his 10-5 rights mean nothing to him. It seems to me that with a player such as Dempster, with whom you've had a long, harmonious relationship, and who has a vested right to veto any trade you propose involving him, basic office politics would dictate that you do some greasing of palms to ensure that he DOESN'T veto whatever trade agreement you eventually come to.

Is Dempster being immature or whatever in pouting about being "blindsided" (if that's what he's doing)? Perhaps, but given the particulars, I think the Cubs would be naive to be surprised by that reaction. (And even if the leak came from the Braves' camp, the Cubs should've made Dempster privy to what discussions were being had.)
   109. SouthSideRyan Posted: July 24, 2012 at 01:31 PM (#4190887)
I think it's silly to boo a player whose decided to exercise his hard-earned right to keep playing baseball for your team.


It's even sillier to do it before it's even happened.
   110. base ball chick Posted: July 24, 2012 at 01:33 PM (#4190894)
am not surprised at zonk's belief and unfortunately, i think it is what most fans think - between fantasy ball and the reserve clause, the players aren't supposed to be treated like actual live people who have rights on a contract that the team agreed to.

i think that sometimes a team has told a player they want to trade him and the player has no trade rights and tells them absolutely not. so they do deals behind his back and then use the zonks to try to force him out.

it's clever because fans think about their team and side with the billionaires/big power against the stupid jerk who is screwing up the fan's fantasy
   111. zonk Posted: July 24, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4190903)
I think it's silly to boo a player whose decided to exercise his hard-earned right to keep playing baseball for your team.


Even if my team doesn't want or need him and would have much, much more use for what they'd get in return in the grand scheme of things?

I absolutely respect the terms of the CBA -- but those 'hard-earned rights' mean diddly squat to me as a fan. I want this team to be a better team in the future and Ryan Dempster simply isn't going to be a part of that. Yes, we've had a harmonious relationships with Dempster. However, he's been well-compensated for his performance -- and that's on top of the fact that he was scrap heap material before resurrecting his career in Chicago. Neither of his two guaranteed, multi-year contracts contained much in the way of a 'hometown discount', near as I can tell.

From a Cubfandom perspective -- we're square... Like I said, so long and thanks for all the fish.

To whatever limited extent the reaction of the 'fans' plays into his decision, well -- I just want to make sure that he factors in the fans unhappiness.
   112. SoSH U at work Posted: July 24, 2012 at 01:40 PM (#4190905)
It seems to me that with a player such as Dempster, with whom you've had a long, harmonious relationship, and who has a vested right to veto any trade you propose involving him, basic office politics would dictate that you do some greasing of palms to ensure that he DOESN'T veto whatever trade agreement you eventually come to.


I simply object to the order that teams (and not just the Cubs) operate under in this situation: Agree to trade with another club, let word of trade get out, go to player with no-trade rights and ask him to waive them (thereby putting the onus on the player to waive them or you'll unleash the zonks on him). To me, it should be 1. tentative agreement reached, 2. player makes decision on waiving rights, 3. announce trade (if rights waived, STFU if not). It doesn't strike me as much about office politics as the right thing to do. There is no trade without the approval of the player with no-trade rights, so I wish teams (and by extension, fans and media) would stop pretending it's just an insignificant detail not worth worrying about.
   113. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: July 24, 2012 at 01:40 PM (#4190906)
i'm with bbc here, though i understand your reaction, zonk.
   114. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: July 24, 2012 at 01:41 PM (#4190907)
am not surprised at zonk's belief and unfortunately, i think it is what most fans think - between fantasy ball and the reserve clause, the players aren't supposed to be treated like actual live people who have rights on a contract that the team agreed to.

i think that sometimes a team has told a player they want to trade him and the player has no trade rights and tells them absolutely not. so they do deals behind his back and then use the zonks to try to force him out.

it's clever because fans think about their team and side with the billionaires/big power against the stupid jerk who is screwing up the fan's fantasy

I want to save this for posterity. It's spot on.
   115. Guapo Posted: July 24, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4190916)
For what it's worth, my guess is that if Dempster kills the trade, the Zonks of the world will be outnumbered. That is, it will be perceived by the majority of the fan base as "Woo-hoo! Our best player turned down the trade because he wants to stay in Chicago! At least we still have one good player to root for!"
   116. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 24, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4190920)
To me, it should be 1. tentative agreement reached, 2. player makes decision on waiving rights, 3. announce trade (if rights waived, STFU if not). It doesn't strike me as much about office politics as the right thing to do. There is no trade without the approval of the player with no-trade rights, so I wish teams (and by extension, fans and media) would stop pretending it's just an insignificant detail not worth worrying about.


Isn't that *exactly* what happened here? Leaks happen, and come from all sorts of places and there's just so many people involved it's almost impossible for there not to be a leak. To assume the Cubs, or any team in a similar situation, were acting in bad faith is unfair.
   117. zonk Posted: July 24, 2012 at 01:59 PM (#4190925)
am not surprised at zonk's belief and unfortunately, i think it is what most fans think - between fantasy ball and the reserve clause, the players aren't supposed to be treated like actual live people who have rights on a contract that the team agreed to.

i think that sometimes a team has told a player they want to trade him and the player has no trade rights and tells them absolutely not. so they do deals behind his back and then use the zonks to try to force him out.

it's clever because fans think about their team and side with the billionaires/big power against the stupid jerk who is screwing up the fan's fantasy


I've been on the side of the MLBPA in every CBA since the beginning of time. This has nothing to do with the Ricketts or Dempster's contract -- in fact, the rumored deal had the Cubs paying him for the remainder of the season anyway.

This wholly, entirely, and nothing-but-about my Cub fandom and the fact that it is markedly in my fandom's best interests to have someone like Delgado in a Cubs uni than Dempster.

Fans have feelings, too -- and a back-to-back-to-back 90 loss team with aging players that have zero chance of being a part of the next good Cubs team give me a sad, too.
   118. SoSH U at work Posted: July 24, 2012 at 01:59 PM (#4190927)
Isn't that *exactly* what happened here? Leaks happen, and come from all sorts of places and there's just so many people involved it's almost impossible for there not to be a leak. To assume the Cubs, or any team in a similar situation, were acting in bad faith is unfair.


If this is exactly what had happened here, we wouldn't know about the possible trade. That leaks happen is not a defense for leaks happening.

And I haven't accused the Cubs of being the one acting in bad faith. But someone from one of these clubs leaked the news about the trade. I don't see why the identity of the offender should matter much to Dempster.
   119. zonk Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:01 PM (#4190931)
For what it's worth, my guess is that if Dempster kills the trade, the Zonks of the world will be outnumbered. That is, it will be perceived by the majority of the fan base as "Woo-hoo! Our best player turned down the trade because he wants to stay in Chicago! At least we still have one good player to root for!"


If you're siding with the Trixies, you're on the wrong side.... we're louder.


I simply object to the order that teams (and not just the Cubs) operate under in this situation: Agree to trade with another club, let word of trade get out, go to player with no-trade rights and ask him to waive them (thereby putting the onus on the player to waive them or you'll unleash the zonks on him). To me, it should be 1. tentative agreement reached, 2. player makes decision on waiving rights, 3. announce trade (if rights waived, STFU if not). It doesn't strike me as much about office politics as the right thing to do. There is no trade without the approval of the player with no-trade rights, so I wish teams (and by extension, fans and media) would stop pretending it's just an insignificant detail not worth worrying about.


Well again - zero evidence the leak came from the Cubs end... Perhaps the cuddliness so many feel here ends when some poor intern making jack squat gets canned because someone else overheard him say something ill-advised?
   120. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4190935)
Rosenthal is saying that Dempster prefers the Dodgers. I don't know if that is in reference to the current issues or is just based on Dempsters statements from before the Atlanta trade leaked.

And before people start piling on, Dempster prefers LA because its much closer to his home in Vancouver and he has a child with a severe illness.

   121. zonk Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:06 PM (#4190941)
If this is exactly what had happened here, we wouldn't know about the possible trade. That leaks happen is not a defense for leaks happening.

And I'm not accusing the Cubs of acting in bad faith. But someone from one of these clubs leaked the news about trade. I don't see why the identity of the offender should matter much to Dempster.


Come on, we're not talking nuclear launch codes here...

We're talking about something that is THE topic of conversation in Major League Baseball come the end of July. We have a horde of media types who have a job, too -- and a few of them are very good at it. I mean - what proof do we have that it wasn't Dempster's agent that spilled the beans? We're also talking about a guy whose name has been mentioned in rumors for the better part of a month.

Dempster needs to get over it.
   122. SoSH U at work Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:08 PM (#4190944)
Dempster needs to get over it.


Yes, he's the one who needs to start being mature.
   123. zonk Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:14 PM (#4190951)


Yes, he's the one who needs to start being mature.


What does maturity have to do with it?

I'm not organizing pickets of his home - I'm just saying that within the relatively small slice of my life that is Cub fandom, I want some manner of prospects coming back in exchange for a pitcher that does zero for my fandom and I'm expressing such...
   124. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:14 PM (#4190952)
If he doesn't want to be booed, trashed on message boards, radio, etc -- then, well, maybe that ought to factor into his decision.


I agree that he apparently should've factored a desire to not be treated like an ####### on the way out the door into his decision-making process when he agreed to sign with the Cubs. Or is that not what you meant?
   125. bunyon Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:16 PM (#4190954)
I think you guys saying he needs to get over it think it's mostly emotional with him. It may be. But, more likely, IMO, is that it's just business. As it is with the Braves and Cubs. He has a strong negotiating position so he's going to see what he can get. If he weren't a 10/5 guy and didn't have a no-trade, he'd go and I'd agree with you he needs to get over it if he were whining about it.

All these guys work on contracts and those contracts are enforceable. Given his obviously strong position, the Cubs shouldn't keep him informed in advance so as to be nice but because he has them over a barrel if he likes. IOW, it isn't that the Cubs should do the right thing, they should do the smart thing.

If you want to not like Dempster because of this, fine.
   126. Brian C Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:17 PM (#4190956)
I'm just saying that within the relatively small slice of my life that is Cub fandom, I want some manner of prospects coming back in exchange for a pitcher that does zero for my fandom and I'm expressing such...

No, that's not what you're "just saying." What you're actually saying is that his life should be made miserable if he doesn't do what you want. That's hardly the same thing.
   127. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:21 PM (#4190961)
I'm just saying that within the relatively small slice of my life that is Cub fandom, I want some manner of prospects coming back in exchange for a pitcher that does zero for my fandom and I'm expressing such...

No, that's not what you're "just saying." What you're actually saying is that his life should be made miserable if he doesn't do what you want. That's hardly the same thing.
Right. Compare (a) and (b).

(a) "I want Ryan Dempster to approve this trade so that the Cubs get a good pitching prospect."
(b) "Ryan Dempster deserves to be booed and needs to grow up and accept the trade."

I think everyone would sympathize with (a), but as you've seen just about no one sympathizes with (b).
   128. Brian C Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:26 PM (#4190967)
More from the mothership:
On Tuesday, Dempster tweeted on @RyanDempsterFDN, "Nothing official to report. You will be the 1st to know. Thnx to all my fans for the support #RD46"

When reports of the deal surfaced on Monday, Dempster denied them, saying, "THERE IS NO TRADE dont know where this info came from!"

...

There were also reports on Tuesday that Dempster was "blindsided" by the Braves deal, but sources told MLB.com that Dempster was surprised at how public the trade became before he had made his decision.

So again, who knows what Dempster's up to.
   129. zonk Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4190969)
No, that's not what you're "just saying." What you're actually saying is that his life should be made miserable if he doesn't do what you want. That's hardly the same thing.


If my complaining on the internets "makes his life miserable" -- or if being booed at the ballpark "makes his life miserable"... well, there's an easy solution to that - he could accept a transfer to different work environs...
   130. zonk Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4190974)

I think everyone would sympathize with (a), but as you've seen just about no one sympathizes with (b).


That's OK - they'll all thank me if it tilts the scales and Delgado turns into Dennis Martinez.

Being an iconoclast has its rewards... just ask Ray.
   131. Depressoteric Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4190979)
"Nothing official to report. You will be the 1st to know."
We will? Even before Dempster himself?

Actually...yeah, I guess that's pretty plausible.
   132. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4190985)
Being an iconoclast has its rewards... just ask Ray.


What, exactly, is the reward of being Ray?

If my complaining on the internets "makes his life miserable" -- or if being booed at the ballpark "makes his life miserable"... well, there's an easy solution to that - he could accept a transfer to different work environs...


And then tell all of his free agent teammates not to sign with the Cubs, because their fans are a bunch of stupid ########. Which would be no more than you'd deserve, zonk, for the way you're acting in this thread.
   133. zonk Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4190997)


And then tell all of his free agent teammates not to sign with the Cubs, because their fans are a bunch of stupid ########. Which would be no more than you'd deserve, zonk, for the way you're acting in this thread.


Bah, Dempster's Canadian... no one listens to Canadians except when it comes to New Pornographers tour dates or where to find good poutine.
   134. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 24, 2012 at 02:46 PM (#4191000)
Jayson Stark now saying it should be resolved shortly and that the Cubs are still talking to both the Braves and Dodgers.
   135. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 24, 2012 at 03:08 PM (#4191018)
This seems uncomfortably similar to the BJ Surhoff trade the Braves pulled off back in 2000. Surhoff had a sick child who was being treated in a Baltimore hospital (Johns Hopkins, probably) and cried uncontrollably at the departure press conference. He was also pretty bad for the Braves, though how much of that was because he was distracted by family concerns and how much of it was just the fact that he was a bad player at that point in his career is a fair question.
   136. SoSH U at work Posted: July 24, 2012 at 03:11 PM (#4191022)
What, exactly, is the reward of being Ray?


I was led to believe there was more shame involved.
   137. Depressoteric Posted: July 24, 2012 at 03:13 PM (#4191024)
This seems uncomfortably similar to the BJ Surhoff trade the Braves pulled off back in 2000. Surhoff had a sick child who was being treated in a Baltimore hospital (Johns Hopkins, probably) and cried uncontrollably at the departure press conference.
If I got traded to the Braves I'd cry too.
   138. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: July 24, 2012 at 03:30 PM (#4191030)
I have no issue with the baseball logic of this potential trade, but honestly, at this point, Ryan Dempster seems a bit like the primadonna whingehat that I would prefer not to wear my favorite laundry.
   139. bfan Posted: July 24, 2012 at 03:31 PM (#4191031)
If I got traded to the Braves I'd cry too.


Yeah, it must really suck to get traded to a franchise with a winning record in 19 out of the last 21 seasons.
   140. Depressoteric Posted: July 24, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4191041)
Yeah, it must really suck to get traded to a franchise with a winning record in 19 out of the last 21 seasons.
Eh, it was transparent Sam-baiting.
   141. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: July 24, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4191062)
Yeah, it must really suck to get traded to a franchise with a winning record in 19 out of the last 21 seasons.

Winning ain't everything.
   142. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: July 24, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4191063)
I have no issue with the baseball logic of this potential trade, but honestly, at this point, Ryan Dempster seems a bit like the primadonna whingehat that I would prefer not to wear my favorite laundry.

Thing is, this feels very much unlike the Dempster Cubs fans have gotten to "know" the past 9 years. He comes across as very likable, very engaging and very down to earth. There's probably a lot more untruths going around now than facts, or at least I hope that's what's happening.
   143. Brian C Posted: July 24, 2012 at 04:05 PM (#4191068)
Thing is, this feels very much unlike the Dempster Cubs fans have gotten to "know" the past 9 years. He comes across as very likable, very engaging and very down to earth.

None of that is inconsistent with looking out for #1, though.
   144. zonk Posted: July 24, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4191088)
An evil thought occurred to me in the other, newer Dempster thread where Rosenthal lays out the contradictions...

The Cubs could just put Dempster on waivers if they haven't moved him come August 1st. Their trade leverage goes out the window, but I would highly suspect that ANY team in content would jump at a waiver claim for Dempster. I suppose his 10/5 would still allow him to block a potential waiver deal, but the Cubs could also say "Screw it, we'll just pocket 6-7 milion in savings and buy Peoria, Daytona, Boise, Des Moines, and Tennessee new batting cages" -- and let the claiming team grab him.

I'm not saying that I'd do that -- it would seem that Dempster is probably going to be compensation eligible -- but I'd certainly hint that it's a possibility.

   145. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 24, 2012 at 04:28 PM (#4191090)
That's insane. If the Cubs are planning on ever signing a free agent in the future, they won't do that.
   146. Guapo Posted: July 24, 2012 at 04:32 PM (#4191097)
Yes, but on the plus side, all their minor league teams would have gold-encrusted batting cages.
   147. zonk Posted: July 24, 2012 at 04:39 PM (#4191104)
That's insane. If the Cubs are planning on ever signing a free agent in the future, they won't do that.


Have the Jays missed out on anyone they wanted after doing it to Rios?

Did it stymie the Red Sox when they danced around the same idea multiple times with Manny?
   148. SoSH U at work Posted: July 24, 2012 at 04:43 PM (#4191115)
Have the Jays missed out on anyone they wanted after doing it to Rios?

Did it stymie the Red Sox when they danced around the same idea multiple times with Manny?


Those guys didn't previously exercise their rights not to be traded, only to get dumped as punishment.
   149. Kiko Sakata Posted: July 24, 2012 at 04:43 PM (#4191117)
Have the Jays missed out on anyone they wanted after doing it to Rios?

Did it stymie the Red Sox when they danced around the same idea multiple times with Manny?


Alex Rios was massively under-performing his contract when the White Sox picked him up. Manny was perceived as an overpaid malcontent. Ryan Dempster, on the other hand, is a very well-liked guy in the clubhouse who leads the National League in ERA. Dumping bad players to save money is one thing; dumping good ones (edit to add: out of spite) is another.
   150. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 14, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4208108)


I don't get the Dempster deal at all. Is Dempster even that much of a guarantee to be better than Randall Delgado the remainder of this season?


Braves dodged a bullet.
   151. Depressoteric Posted: August 14, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4208121)
He hasn't quite pulled a "Jarrod Washburn," but yeah...it hasn't been a smooth transition to the AL West for Dempster.
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