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Monday, January 12, 2009

MLB: Henderson, Rice given Hall passes

Player	Total Votes	Percentage

Rickey 	        511	94.8%
Jim Rice	412	76.4%
Andre Dawson	361	67.0%
Bert Blyleven	338	62.7%
Lee Smith	240	44.5%
Jack Morris	237	44.0%
Tommy John	171	31.7%
Tim Raines	122	22.6%
Mark McGwire	118	21.9%
Alan Trammell	94	17.4%
Dave Parker	81	15.0%
Don Mattingly	64	11.9%
Dale Murphy	62	11.5%
Harold Baines	32	5.9%
Mark Grace	22	4.1%
David Cone	21	3.9%
Matt Williams	7	1.3%
Mo Vaughn	6	1.1%
Jay Bell	2	0.4%
Jesse Orosco	1	0.2%
Ron Gant	0	0%
Dan Plesac	0	0%
Greg Vaughn	0	0%
Repoz Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:08 PM | 302 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, history

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   1. Enrico Pallazzo Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:12 PM (#3049749)
94.8% is still somehow an insult. I hate baseball writers. Oh, and Tim Raines got no love again...dammit
   2. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:12 PM (#3049750)
17.4 %. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Congrats to Rickey and the other guy.
   3. flournoy Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:13 PM (#3049751)
Seven votes for Matt Williams, edging out Mo Vaughn. Love it.
   4. John DiFool2 Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:13 PM (#3049752)
Andre is now as mortal a lock as Rice was this year, for good or bad.

Bert is eligible thru the January 2013 election, right? He'll get in during one of the upcoming down years.

I am pleased that Smitty leapfrogged a dropping Morris.

Tommy John's fate now lies with the VC, 5 long years from now...

Raines' 22.6% is pretty shameful. Hopefully clearing two other LFers off the ballot will help him get in before the 2013 crunch hits...

Trammell's odds look bleak, considering he has less time and a better SS coming on next year.

Big Mac doesn't seem to have any momentum at all. He may have a long wait too.

Coney dropping off was depressingly predictable.
   5. tfbg9 Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:13 PM (#3049753)
Gnash those teeth, Treder. Heh heh.

Congrats Jimbo!
   6. CraigK Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:13 PM (#3049757)
Blyleven's gonna have to come out of retirement and get those last 13 wins at age 58, isn't he?
   7. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:14 PM (#3049759)
Ron Gant 0 0%
Dan Plesac 0 0%
Greg Vaughn 0 0%


Tim McCarver: "You know, 'Gant', in French means 'Glove...'"

Mo Vaughn 6 1.1%


You can bet none of these guys worked for a New York paper...
   8. Zac Schmitt Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:14 PM (#3049761)
hopefully the 28(!) writers who didn't vote for rickey, corky simpson aside, identify themselves soon and attempt to explain their behavior. i feel like sending the lot of them to the principle's office.
   9. Enrico Pallazzo Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:14 PM (#3049760)
Here are the newcomers for next year, for those who don't know

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/columnists/jimbaumbach/blog/2008/05/the_rookies_on_the_2010_baseba.html

Make room for Robbie! If he gets in, will he be a Jay? I sure hope so.
   10. Steve Treder Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:14 PM (#3049762)
As I posted in the other thread:

Henderson was a no-brainer, though the fact that 5% of the voters didn't vote for him suggests that there are several voters lacking brains.

Rice they got wrong. Blyleven they got wrong. Raines they got wrong. Trammell they got wrong. And McGwire they got wrong.

Oh well.
   11. CraigK Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:15 PM (#3049763)
   12. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:16 PM (#3049765)
Dawson will make it at some point in the next 5 years. And I'm pretty sure that Blyleven will get a boost of support in his final 3 years on the ballot. But other than those two, I don't see anyone being a good bet to get elected eventually.

There was barely any movement for Smith, Morris, Raines, and Trammell.

What on earth was the rationale for the Orosco vote? Did anyone own up to that?
   13. Flynn Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:16 PM (#3049766)
It's kind of funny that Bill James wrote about 10-12 years ago in the Politics of Glory that the BBWAA had actually done a good job with the Hall of Fame. It's actually gotten worse since then, despite the wealth of statistics and research possibilities the internet provides.
   14. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:17 PM (#3049767)
Between this and today's episode of The Young and the Restless, Jim Rice must be over the moon.
   15. Dewey, Soupuss Not Doomed to Succeed Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:17 PM (#3049769)
hopefully the 28(!) writers who didn't vote for rickey, corky simpson aside, identify themselves soon and attempt to explain their behavior. i feel like sending the lot of them to the principle's office.

I have a hard time getting worked up about this. The Hall of Fame doesn't admit to gradation - either a player is in or he's not.

That said, I am a little happy that Baines managed to hang in there for one more year.

Yes, those are two contradictory statements.
   16. Brian Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:17 PM (#3049770)
Blyleven's gonna have to come out of retirement and get those last 13 wins at age 58, isn't he?
Page 1 of 1 pages


Hearing Yanks offering $40mm/2 years
   17. Depressoteric Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:18 PM (#3049774)
62.7%.

'Tis to weep.

The only comfort I draw from this ballot is the fact that Mark McGwire still has no momentum. I'll be very depressed if he ever makes it in.

Also, I guess I'm pleased that Rice was only 7 votes away from being consigned to Veteran's Committee limbo.
   18. Colin Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:18 PM (#3049775)
Probably the guys who said they'd never vote for anyone who played during the "steroid era"
   19. AROM Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:18 PM (#3049777)
morons.
   20. rdfc Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:18 PM (#3049778)
Interesting: Voters who posted their ballots on the Internet tended to vote more frequently for almost all significant candidates, with the major exception of Tommy John, who received way more support from voters who didn't post their ballot on the net
   21. sotapop Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:19 PM (#3049779)
Twenty-eight voters thought Rickey was not a Hall of Famer. Unreal.

Rice gets in with 7 votes to spare. Maybe CHB's lobbying effort was enough.

EDIT: D'oh, Esoteric got me with the other half of the glass.
   22. Suff Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:20 PM (#3049780)
It's really perplexing to me trying to understand the difference in the votes for Rice, Dawson, and Murphy. I guess a batting average guy could think Rice was better than Murphy, but the difference between 76% and 11%? That I don't understand. People love the MVP stuff for Rice, but Murphy had more MVP support than anyone in the 1980s, save one or two guys.
   23. Willie Mayspedes Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:21 PM (#3049786)
Tommy John never should have operated on himself!
   24. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:22 PM (#3049787)
I thought for sure Jack Morris was getting in with the love he was getting in the press.

The Alan Trammell vote is a complete travesty.

It's really perplexing to me trying to understand the difference in the votes for Rice, Dawson, and Murphy.

Probably largely due to the fact that Jim Rice was beloved by sportswriters while Dale Murphy was by all accounts, a total douchenozzle.

Errr, wait.
   25. Halofan Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:23 PM (#3049788)
TIM RAINES will climb over the next decade... ya just gotta believe his case is too strong to ignore and the Gritty McRibby crowd is on the wane.
   26. Mister High Standards Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:23 PM (#3049789)
Rice they got wrong. Blyleven they got wrong. Raines they got wrong. Trammell they got wrong. And McGwire they got wrong.


Probably, probably, definitly, unclear, unclear.

How can you be so definite?

I have to say, there are a lot of things worse with those results than Bert getting 60%+.
   27. Chris Fluit Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:23 PM (#3049790)
What on earth was the rationale for the Orosco vote? Did anyone own up to that?


Most likely a pro-Mets vote. I've noticed in the past that every Met gets that token one or two votes.
   28. esseff Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:23 PM (#3049791)
Blyleven's gonna have to come out of retirement and get those last 13 wins at age 58, isn't he?
Blyleven's gonna have to come out of retirement and get those last 13 wins at age 58, isn't he?


Mr. 300!

i feel like sending the lot of them to the principle's office.


An apt misspelling.
   29. Brian Oliver Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:23 PM (#3049792)
Grace and down drop off and the following guys become eligible (per HoF site)

Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Dave Burba, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mark McLemore, Shane Reynolds, David Segui, Robin Ventura, Fernando Vina, and Todd Zeile
   30. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:24 PM (#3049794)
At least Trammell's in no danger of being dropped from the ballot, as there's always a chance that the writers will change their minds. Sweet Lou never got even a second chance for consideration.
   31. aleskel Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:24 PM (#3049795)
you need above 5% to stay on the ballot, right? I'm a little surprised Cone fell off. You figure there would be enough "NYC-clutchy-perfect game!" types to keep him around.
   32. Zac Schmitt Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:24 PM (#3049797)
I have a hard time getting worked up about this. The Hall of Fame doesn't admit to gradation - either a player is in or he's not.


this is exactly why it bothers me (although not as much as many). i can't think of any possible reason not to vote for someone you think should be in. don't refuse to vote for a guy on the first ballot because you don't think he's "inner circle" seeing how there is no inner circle. i also don't like voting for guys you don't think should be in just as a "shout out" or to keep them on the ballot. either he's in or not. so i can think of no justifiable reason to vote no unless you really don't think he belongs - and who doesn't think rickey belongs?

again, it's fun to get worked up about, and i wouldn't really care if these people, whose methods i completely disagree with, weren't the gatekeepers for something i actually consider important.

edit - as to the misspelling referenced in 28: although i'm in general a complete moron, in this case, believe it or not, it was intentional.
   33. catseyepub Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:24 PM (#3049798)
Heyman actually just said that he changed his mind this year and finally voted for Mattingly stating that it's called the Hall Of Fame and Mattingly is famous. WTF..........
   34. The District Attorney Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:24 PM (#3049799)
So, compared to last year:

Rice +4.2%
Dawson +1.1%
Blyleven +0.8%
Lee Smith +1.2%
Morris +1.1%
John +2.6%
Raines -1.7%
McGwire -1.7%
Trammell -0.8%
Parker -0.1%
Mattingly -3.9%
Dale Murphy - 2.3%
Baines +0.7%

Not much movement at all. Heck, Rice moved the most and I thought he'd move even more. I bet there were a lot of ballots where the writer removed someone who got little support last year and replaced him with Rickey.
   35. Dr Love Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:25 PM (#3049801)
Twenty-eight voters thought Rickey was not a Hall of Famer. Unreal.


As I said in another thread, no one has ever received 100% of the vote and as long as old curmudgeons are still given ballots no one ever will.
   36. zonk Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:25 PM (#3049802)
Bad BBWAA voters. Bad.
   37. Steve Treder Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:25 PM (#3049803)
How can you be so definite?

Dude, it's a Hall of Fame vote. Either you vote "yes" or you vote "no." There isn't a "maybe" category.

By the established standards of most players in and out of the HOF, Rice doesn't deserve to be in, and Blyleven, Raines, Trammell, and McGwire do.
   38. aleskel Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:26 PM (#3049804)
the following guys become eligible (per HoF site)

so, which of those is everyone going to get worked up about this time next year? Edgar, I guess.
   39. Brian Oliver Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:26 PM (#3049805)
Raines got ten less votes in 2009. What exactly changed for those voters?
   40. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:26 PM (#3049807)
Great for Rickey. And good for Rice, even though I wouldn't have voted for him. Too bad about Blyleven, Raines and Trammell. The rest of them they got right, and so much for that "one year message" wrist slap that the voters were supposedly giving McGwire in 2007.
   41. OCF Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:26 PM (#3049808)
The complete list of all eligible players who were better than Rickey
Henderson: _________

The complete list of LF and RF in baseball history who were better than
Rickey Henderson:

Ted Williams
Barry Bonds
Stan Musial
Babe Ruth
Hank Aaron
Frank Robinson
Mel Ott

(and there are those who will argue that Robinson and Ott weren't more
valuable than Rickey)

An incomplete list of LF and RF since 1960 who were better than Jim Rice
and aren't in the Hall of Fame:

Tim Raines
(large gap)
Dwight Evans
Jack Clark
Frank Howard
Rusty Staub
Reggie Smith
Bobby Bonds
Rocky Colavito
Dave Parker

And I can make cases for:
Ken Singleton
Jose Cruz, Sr.
Jose Canseco
Albert Belle
Daryl Strawberry
   42. Dewey, Soupuss Not Doomed to Succeed Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:27 PM (#3049809)
Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Dave Burba, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mark McLemore, Shane Reynolds, David Segui, Robin Ventura, Fernando Vina, and Todd Zeile

Hm. No slam-dunks. Alomar and Larkin have good chances. Martinez is about 50-50, and McGriff has a very slight chance. I'd be surprised if more than a couple of the others survived the first ballot.
   43. Chris Fluit Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:27 PM (#3049810)
I am pleased that Smitty leapfrogged a dropping Morris.


2008 vote:
Lee Smith, 235 votes, 43.3%
Jack Morris, 233 votes, 42.9%

no leap-frogging, and only one vote change this year (Smith beat Morris by 3 instead of 2)

Jack Morris
2008 vote, 233 votes, 42.9%
2009 vote, 237 votes, 44.0%

no dropping, though certainly also a lack of upward momentum
   44. aleskel Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:27 PM (#3049811)
Raines got ten less votes in 2009

ten fewer votes

(sorry, pet peeve)
   45. Dewey, Soupuss Not Doomed to Succeed Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:27 PM (#3049812)
so much for that "one year message" wrist slap that the voters were supposedly giving McGwire in 2007.

Isn't this McGwire's third year on the ballot, or am I confused?
   46. LSR Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:28 PM (#3049815)
Raines got ten less votes in 2009. What exactly changed for those voters?

They compared him to Rickey and found him wanting (too bad they didn't compare him to Rice).
   47. Sean Forman Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:28 PM (#3049816)
My first bold prediction of 2009 is that no one goes in next year.
   48. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:29 PM (#3049817)
Heyman actually just said that he changed his mind this year and finally voted for Mattingly stating that it's called the Hall Of Fame and Mattingly is famous. WTF..........


For thousands of years, the "hall of fame" meant "greatness," not "celebrity." Of course, that has changed in less than a hundred years.
   49. Brian Oliver Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:29 PM (#3049819)
[47] ... That would not shock me at all
   50. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:30 PM (#3049820)
"Make room for Robbie! If he gets in, will he be a Jay? I sure hope so."

Personally, I'll always think of him as a Diamondback.
   51. Dewey, Soupuss Not Doomed to Succeed Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:30 PM (#3049821)
My first bold prediction of 2009 is that no one goes in next year.

My prediction - Dawson gets in. Blyleven barely misses out, and nobody from the new group gets in.
   52. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:31 PM (#3049823)

Blyleven's gonna have to come out of retirement and get those last 13 wins at age 58, isn't he?


He would be a solid #2 on the Orioles or Nats.
   53. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:31 PM (#3049824)
My prediction? Pain!
   54. sotapop Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:32 PM (#3049825)
re. 35: yeah, I guess. Just more curmudgeons out there than I figured.
   55. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:32 PM (#3049826)
"(sorry, pet peeve)"

Don't be sorry. It irritates the hell out of me when people get that one wrong.
   56. Jerry Lumpe Rutherford (Dan Lee) Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:32 PM (#3049828)
hopefully the 28(!) writers who didn't vote for rickey, corky simpson aside, identify themselves soon and attempt to explain their behavior.

I'd love to hear the two who voted for Jay Bell explain their behavior. I mean, what in the world is his HoF case? "Solid glove at two key defensive positions, pretty good pop and plate discipline. Spectacular bunter. Two All-Star games. Cool wire-rimmed glasses."
   57. AROM Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:33 PM (#3049831)
Next year:

Larkin
Alomar
Edgar
McGriff

doesn't seem like it clears an easy path for Dawson and Bert.

2011:
Bagwell
Palmeiro
Juan Gone
L Walker
Olerud
Kevin Brown
John Franco
   58. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:33 PM (#3049832)
so much for that "one year message" wrist slap that the voters were supposedly giving McGwire in 2007.

Isn't this McGwire's third year on the ballot, or am I confused?


2007, 2008, 2009. Three years and counting. I was referring to the numerous wishful thoughts that were expressed here in 2007, which apparently thought that the writers didn't really mean it the first time.
   59. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:33 PM (#3049833)
Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Dave Burba, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mark McLemore, Shane Reynolds, David Segui, Robin Ventura, Fernando Vina, and Todd Zeile

Alomar: won't get 75%, but possibly >50%
Appier: won't get 5%
Ashby: won't get 5%
Burks: won't get 5%
Burba: won't get 5%
Galarraga: might get >5%, will never be elected
Hentgen: won't get 5%
Jackson: won't get 5%
Karros: won't get 5%
Lankford: won't get 5%
Larkin: won't get 75%, but possibly >50%
Martinez: will get somewhere between 20-50%
McGriff: will get somewhere between 10-30%
McLemore: won't get 5%
Reynolds: won't get 5%
Segui: won't get 5%
Ventura: might get >5%, will never be elected
Vina: won't get 5%
Zeile: won't get 5%

FWIW, my preliminary ballot for next year:
-Blyleven
-Raines
-Trammell
-Alomar
-Larkin
-Martinez
-McGriff

I'm most on the fence about Alomar and Martinez, leaning toward their inclusion, partly because I don't believe that I've ever supported as many as 7 players in any one year before and I have the most questions about those two.
   60. Brian Oliver Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:33 PM (#3049834)
Pedro Gomez is one of the votes for Jay Bell
   61. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:33 PM (#3049835)
Interesting: Voters who posted their ballots on the Internet tended to vote more frequently for almost all significant candidates, with the major exception of Tommy John, who received way more support from voters who didn't post their ballot on the net

And Lee Smith.

I was expecting just about all of the "Repoz-calculated" percentages, from voters who made their ballot public, to be higher than the actual percentages. But this wasn't quite true.

So, to see how the actual numbers compare with the numbers among those who made their ballots public, among those with >10% of the vote:

(Actual percentage)/(Repoz percentage)

2.443 Dave Parker (15.0%/6.1%)
2.262 Don Mattingly (11.9%/5.3%)
1.723 Tommy John (31.7%/18.4%)
1.209 Lee Smith (44.5%/36.8%)
1.192 Dale Murphy (11.5%/9.6%)
.961 Mark McGwire (21.9%/22.8%)
.956 Rickey Henderson (94.8%/99.1%)
.954 Andre Dawson (67.0%/70.2%)
.946 Jack Morris (44.0%/46.5%)
.926 Jim Rice (76.4%/82.5%)
.871 Bert Blyleven (62.7%/70.2%)
.834 Tim Raines (22.6%/27.1%)
.795 Alan Trammell (17.4%/21.9%)

What do we learn?

- Writers with minority tastes (Dave Parker, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy, also David Cone, Mark Grace) tend to not make their votes public. Why not? Unless these are token votes, they should be trying to make the case for their candidates.

- Lee Smith and Tommy John supporters are also severely underrepresented among writers who explain their votes. Why? Clearly their voters are jaded old guys who hate life.

- Bert Blyleven, Tim Raines and Alan Trammell are severely overrepresented among writers who explain their votes. Which we should expect, as their voters are vigorous young go-getters who are internet-savvy.

- For the other serious contenders, the percentage calculated by Repoz was an overestimate by a few percent.

- Harold Baines was the only candidate in the 5-10% range for whom the Repoz percentage was not an extreme underestimate. I guess this was because lots of Chicago writers made their votes public.
   62. Chris Fluit Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:34 PM (#3049836)
Rice got a last-ballot boost of 4.2%, enough to slide him from "out" to "in."

With a prominent newcomer on the ballot, everybody else held roughly steady (Dawson, Blyleven, Smith and Morris).

Raines took a small step back in his second year but that's not unusual, he still has plenty of time to work his way up.

Dawson will get in next year.

The 12.3% jump might be a little too much to expect for Blyleven. But a jump into the 70's would give him enough momentum that he'd get in in '10 or '11 (as we just saw with Rice).
   63. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:34 PM (#3049837)
There was barely any movement for Smith, Morris, Raines, and Trammell.

There was barely any movemeent PERIOD.

Biggest gains:
Rice 4.2%
John 2.6%
Smith 1.2%

Biggest drops:
Mattingley -3.9%
Murphy 2.3%
Raines & McGwire 1.7% each

The entire vote total went from 5.35 last year (the lowest vote total in history) to 5.38 this year.
   64. Mister High Standards Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:34 PM (#3049838)
How can you be so definite?

Dude, it's a Hall of Fame vote. Either you vote "yes" or you vote "no." There isn't a "maybe" category.

By the established standards of most players in and out of the HOF, Rice doesn't deserve to be in, and Blyleven, Raines, Trammell, and McGwire do.


I'm not really going to argue but McGwire almost certainly is a case unto himself right now, as we have no idea what the established standards are for him.

I would probably vote for all 3 of the others and wouldn't have voted for Rice. Yet, there are reasonable cases against all of them.

You're not that much smarter than the rest of the population that you can judge from on high, who is right and who is wrong. So while I agree with who you would have voted for, I'm not going to say anyone who doesn't is wrong. For exmaple, the poster whose opinion I respect the most on this site's (I respect yours quite a bit as well) ballot would look a lot different than yours.
   65. AJMcCringleberry Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:36 PM (#3049842)
Hm. No slam-dunks. Alomar and Larkin have good chances. Martinez is about 50-50, and McGriff has a very slight chance. I'd be surprised if more than a couple of the others survived the first ballot.

Ventura deserves support.
   66. aleskel Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:37 PM (#3049843)
Don't be sorry. It irritates the hell out of me when people get that one wrong.

yeah, but I've learned that people can get pretty miffed when you correct someone's grammer on teh internets. Actually, people get angry when you correct their grammer in real life, too.
   67. tfbg9 Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:37 PM (#3049844)
McGwire's nowhere near Hall consideration without the juice. They got it right on him.
   68. Jerry Lumpe Rutherford (Dan Lee) Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:37 PM (#3049845)
Pedro Gomez is one of the votes for Jay Bell

I see he's been applying the clear and the cream to his brain.
   69. Brian Oliver Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:39 PM (#3049847)
yeah, but I've learned that people can get pretty miffed when you correct someone's grammer on teh internets


I couldn't care fewer
   70. OCF Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:40 PM (#3049849)
We haven't posted a Hall of Merit 2010 discussion thread yet. Of course, our backlog looks a bit different. (To be specific, we've already elected Raines, Blyleven, McGwire, Trammell, and Dawson, and our top 3 backloggers are Rizzuto, Cone, and Cravath.) We had Appier eligible in 2009 - he didn't get much support.

We'll elect three. My guess is that we'll take both Alomar and Larkin very easily, with Larkin topping the ballot. Our yet to be debated unresolved issues: Martinez versus McGriff; Martinez and McGriff versus the backlog; and whether Ventura gets a place in the backlog somewhere.
   71. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:40 PM (#3049850)
people get angry when you correct their grammer in real life, too.

What about spelling?
   72. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:40 PM (#3049851)
McGwire's nowhere near Hall consideration without the juice. They got it right on him.

Yeah, anyone could have put up those numbers with the juice. Fortunately for us only three or four people ever used the stuff.
   73. Steve Treder Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:40 PM (#3049852)
You're not that much smarter than the rest of the population that you can judge from on high, who is right and who is wrong. So while I agree with who you would have voted for, I'm not going to say anyone who doesn't is wrong.

Oh, geez, Matt, lighten up. It's a Hall of Fame vote; we aren't discussing world hunger. Votes in agreement with one's own can fairly be described as "right," and those in disagreement can fairly be described as "wrong."
   74. Cowboy Popup Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:41 PM (#3049854)
On the bright side, no more Jim Rice threads! I wish they had inducted Blyleven too, just so we wouldn't have any more of those either. Next year's ballot promises to be far more exciting.
   75. Dewey, Soupuss Not Doomed to Succeed Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:42 PM (#3049856)
Ventura deserves support.

He won't get elected (and probably shouldn't) but he is a lot higher up on the list of all-time third basemen than most people realise. He was pretty terrific defensively, too.
   76. Depressoteric Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:42 PM (#3049857)
FWIW, my preliminary ballot for next year:
-Blyleven
-Raines
-Trammell
-Alomar
-Larkin
-Martinez
-McGriff
Subtract McGriff and that's my ballot as well. I'm willing to be convinced on the Crime Dog, however.

I would vote Edgar Martinez for anything, including President of the United States and surrogate father, so I'm probably not the most reliable indicator as far as he goes.
   77. Clemenza Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:42 PM (#3049858)
I'd love to hear the two who voted for Jay Bell explain their behavior.

Dollars to donuts these are two guys Bell would have a beer with on the road or maybe Bell went and spoke to their kid's little league team or something. They threw him a bone so he could tell his grandkids that he got some HOF votes. At least I hope that's what happened.
   78. Depressoteric Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:44 PM (#3049859)
On the bright side, no more Jim Rice threads! I wish they had inducted Blyleven too, just so we wouldn't have any more of those either.
NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE! NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE!

(To be clear, I'm trying to make the HOF case for David Justice here.)
   79. Willie Mayspedes Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:44 PM (#3049860)
I wonder how many guys just mail their picks to the wrong address or forget all together.
   80. DL from MN Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:44 PM (#3049861)
Bert's actually pitching today... at the Twins fantasy camp.

No induction speech at all next year would be ridiculous. There will be more than 10 players worth considering and 6 with a BBTF consensus of electing immediately:

Blyleven, Larkin, Raines, Trammell, Alomar, McGwire
Lee Smith, Edgar Martinez, Ventura, Appier, Dawson, McGriff

All these guys are better than Jack Morris.
   81. DaMick knows what love is. A Boy Loves His Dog. Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:45 PM (#3049863)
" 23. Al Kaline Trio Posted: January 12, 2009 at 02:21 PM (#3049786)

Tommy John never should have operated on himself!"

People are wondering why I am laughing at work. Thank you.

G-d, I miss "Fire Joe Morgan".
   82. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:45 PM (#3049864)
What the heck is the problem with a token vote for Jay Bell? Sheesh, it's not like there were exactly ten deserving candidates by anyone's standards.

I feel sort of bad for Ron Gant that he got no votes at all. Ah well, it's an honor just to <strike>be nominated</strike> play full-time for ten years.
   83. catseyepub Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:45 PM (#3049865)
Verducci's got a brain, but Heyman just told Rice that after years of not voting for him, he has agreed to vote for him the last couple years. Is this guy wacky or what?

This guy Heyman gets so much airtime on various baseball shows, but he seems to be less than sharp. That's pretty polite I must say.
   84. Mike Green Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:46 PM (#3049866)
I guess I'll skip Cooperstown on our next trip through New York state. Maybe they'll get things within a zone of reasonableness during the next 10 years, but I am not counting on it.
   85. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:47 PM (#3049867)
#84: There's a museum in Cooperstown too. The plaque room is not exactly the most fascinating part of the Baseball Hall of Fame And Museum.
   86. Moloka'i Three-Finger Brown (Declino DeShields) Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:47 PM (#3049868)
Writers with minority tastes (Dave Parker, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy, also David Cone, Mark Grace) tend to not make their votes public. Why not? Unless these are token votes, they should be trying to make the case for their candidates.


The inactive BBWAA members who still vote, almost by definition, wouldn't explain their vote. Perhaps they are far removed from the more recent guys on the list (and/or more recent ways of evaluating players) and are clinging to the guys they covered or admired? Granted, that wouldn't explain Cone or Grace necessarily, but it could explain Mattingly, Murphy, or Parker.
   87. catseyepub Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:47 PM (#3049869)
Now the anti Rice voices will go the way of the anti Rizzuto voices...............fade .....away...
   88. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:47 PM (#3049871)
My first bold prediction of 2009 is that no one goes in next year.

Which is exactly what concerns me about this ballot.

There are people on the edge of the ballot - but they have ZERO forward momentum, and with what looks to be a stronger newbie crop on the horizon next year.
   89. AJMcCringleberry Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:48 PM (#3049873)
He won't get elected (and probably shouldn't) but he is a lot higher up on the list of all-time third basemen than most people realise. He was pretty terrific defensively, too.

I agree he won't get elected. I have him as borderline (possibly over the line, I haven't looked too hard at him yet), around Bell, Nettles, and Collins.
   90. DanG Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:48 PM (#3049874)
Bert is eligible thru the January 2013 election, right?

January 2012. This was his 12th ballot.
Tommy John's fate now lies with the VC, 5 long years from now...

Actually 2 short years from now. The VC considers you after you've been retired for 21 years. In their recently held election, players retired in 1987 were eligible.
   91. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:50 PM (#3049876)
I typically stay out of the Rice HOF threads, but I'll make my token comment here. I fell in love with baseball as a 10-year-old kid in 1978. The Red Sox were my team (literally... my Little League team name) and Jim Rice was THE MAN! Looking at his career though, I just don't think it measures up for all the reasons typically given.

I guess today the 10-year-old kid inside me is smiling while the 40-year-old SDCN says "meh."
   92. AJMcCringleberry Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:51 PM (#3049877)
What the heck is the problem with a token vote for Jay Bell? Sheesh, it's not like there were exactly ten deserving candidates by anyone's standards.

You're right there weren't exactly 10. There were 11.
   93. Fridas Boss Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:51 PM (#3049878)
71. Shooty Is Getting Off Clint's Lawn, Pronto Posted: January 12, 2009 at 02:40 PM (#3049850)

people get angry when you correct their grammer in real life, too.

What about spelling?



Brilliantly played!
   94. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:51 PM (#3049879)
Last time the BBWAA didn't elect anybody - 1996. Niekro, Perez and Sutton were the high votes.

1995 - (Schmidt, 96.5) Niekro 62.2%, Sutton 57.4%, Perez 56.3%
1996 - Niekro 68.3%, Perez 65.7%, Sutton 63.8%
1997 - Niekro 80.3%, Sutton 73.2%, Perez 66.0%
1998 - Sutton 81.6%, Perez 67.9%

Perez was elected in 2000 after the 1999 rush (Ryan, Brett, Yount) got out of the way.
   95. Joey B.: posting for the kids of northeast Ohio Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:51 PM (#3049881)
The only comfort I draw from this ballot is the fact that Mark McGwire still has no momentum. I'll be very depressed if he ever makes it in.

He actually went down this year. He's never getting in.
   96. Mister High Standards Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:52 PM (#3049882)
Lets see how my ballot and predictions did:

Rickey Henderson: Should get 90% plus of the vote. CHECK - 94.8%
Tim Raines Will be lucky to get 25% of the vote. CHECK - 22.6%
Bert Blyleven will near 70% of the vote. WRONGO - 62.7%
Allan Trammel Will be lucky to get 20% of the vote. CHECKO - 17.4%
Tommy John Will be lucky to get 30% of the vote. WRONGO - 31.7%
Dale Murphy: Probably won’t get 15% of the vote. CHECKO - 11.5%
Lee Smith: Should get about 45% of the vote.CHECKO - 44.5%

What is most disturbing though is the lack of forward progress by most of the electorate, that indicates to me that voters are digging in their heels.
   97. Flynn Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:52 PM (#3049883)
This guy Heyman gets so much airtime on various baseball shows, but he seems to be less than sharp. That's pretty polite I must say.

He's not an idiot, he just doesn't know a damn thing about baseball.
   98. Obama Bomaye Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:53 PM (#3049885)
He actually went down this year. He's never getting in.

Oh, he's definitely going to get in eventually. He may be dead by then, but he'll get in.
   99. Depressoteric Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:53 PM (#3049886)
He actually went down this year. He's never getting in.
From your typing fingers to God's (or the BBWAA's) ears, hopefully.
   100. cardsfanboy Posted: January 12, 2009 at 08:53 PM (#3049887)
Now the anti Rice voices will go the way of the anti Rizzuto voices...............fade .....away...

actually, I think the anti-Rice voices will go the way to pimping for actual deserving candidates now that the standard has been dramatically lowered. Andre Dawson probably gets in easily next year, when the most recent standard for outfield is a clearly lesser player like Rice. Murphys vote total goes up, heck Parkers vote goes up. McGriff relative to Rice is a slam dunk, Edgar Martinez is another slam dunk, it's a domino effect. meanwhile Raines still doesn't garner support.
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