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David Wright not mentioned on 4 ballots? That is assuming that they didn't handwrite "Not David Wright" on the ballot.
Pujols ninth is a joke; there's a good argument to be made he deserves the award, and he's pretty clearly a top three guy. Oh well.
From the voting, it looks like everyone sent in their ballot after the Phillies won the division, but before the Rockies won the playoff game.
2007 Wright D NYN 34
2007 Pujols A STL 32
2007 Cabrera M FLA 30
2007 Holliday M COL 30
2007 Ramirez H FLA 29
2007 Utley C PHI 28
2007 Rollins J PHI 28
2007 Fielder P MIL 28
2007 Maroth M STL -6
If he had a good hype man, he would've finished top 3.
I'll bet none of those came in the last 10 days of the season!
There - that oughtta save about 15-20 people from posting.
2007 - Jimmy Rollins
So . . . Chase Utley next year?
Worst individual votes (can we find out who voted for who?):
David Wright, 8th or worse (on five ballots)
Chipper Jones, no vote (on 11 ballots)
Albert Pujols, no vote (on 13 ballots)
Jose Valverde, all votes (5 ballots, including one for 5th place)
Alfonso Soriano, 3rd (1)
Eric Byrnes, all votes (15)
I'm pretty sure they were required to do this (well, they were required to submit their ballots before the Rockies-Padres playoff game). With a vote this close, it seems pretty possible that the voting deadline cost Holliday the award.
You mean when he hit .409/.469/.455? Yeah, probably.
If you RTFA you will see that "The voters on the NL Most Valuable Player Award committee filed ballots after the regular season, and most took the option of waiting until Rockies' one-game playoff win over the Padres."
2007 - Jimmy Rollins
So . . . Chase Utley next year?
It goes 3-6-9. Victorino's next.
After the great Pujols/Howard massacre of 2006, I'm hunkered down already.
He sure as #### threw that ball away. That one throw probably cost him a whole bunch of points.
Jeter got hosed at 24 too. It sucks amd I feel for Wright's fans.
That said, congrats J-Ro!
So it isn't going to stop the Mets fans from saying that Utley should have won?
He got a 6th, 2 7ths a 9th and a 10th.
http://www.baseballwriters.org/awards/2007/2007_NL_mvp.html
They didn't nail the NL ROY. I think they got it wrong, but, at best, they got it half right.
Let's play player A and player B for a second:
Rollins: .296/.344/.531, 30 HR, 139 Runs, 94 RBI, 41 SB
Player A: .276/.353/.525, 33 HR, 93 Runs, 112 RBI, 23 SB
Rollins wins MVP with 353 points. Player A gets six points. Player A plays the best centerfield in the league and won a Gold Glove. Of course, player A is Carlos Beltran. I don't think Beltran should have gotten MVP consideration - so why on earth did Rollins?
If you like slugging from players who play important defensive positions, check out the following: Ryan Braun, .634; Chipper Jones, .604; Chase Utley, .566; Hanley Ramirez, .562; Aramis Ramirez, .549; David Wright, .546.
Come on people. Holliday, Fielder, Wright, Howard, Utley, and Pujols were all better votes. This is a travesty. People will look back at this vote in twenty years and wonder "wtf?"
I'll note two obvious points...
1. The Rollins-is-deserving argument depends a lot more on total contribution than on rate stats, which I think is a perfectly defensible way to look at the MVP.
2. If there's a possibility of a tie as of Game 162, they should push back the day to send in your ballot accordingly.
I thought Wright was the clear MVP, with Pujols and Holliday also close.
If Jimmy Rollins is competing for the AL MVP, where does he finish in the voting?
In twenty years, they'll look back at 2007, in the heart of the 8 Mets division titles in 10 years, and say that about the whole season.
This would be a stronger point if the CF in question wasn't Carlos Beltran.
Are you going to continue to be an ass?
Okay, I'm not quite as upset about the Rollins thing as I sound. I can see it. Its defensible. But its wrong. And saying things like... well at least its not a *horrible* MVP... really stops the discussion in a bad way.
yep - it's fun to see the responses from people who get all bent out of shape. Having the Phillies pass the Mets for the division was a joyous day. The pain that Met fan was feeling has probably started to dissipate. Therefore, they need a periodic booster shot. Rollins winning the MVP qualifies. I wear my 2007 NL East Champs T-shirt to work once a week, just to remind Dial that the Mets lost.
I think both of those positions are reasonable. I'm not sure I'd agree completely with you, but the arguments behind those positions are decent ones.
You say this as though Jeter wasn't one of the 5 or so best players in the AL that year.
How do you fit it in, between all your Eagles, Phillies, 76ers and Flyers championship t-shirts? Do you have a rotation?
But he did. And just because we can't quantify the effect it had on the Phillies doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
And I love the tenth place vote for Carlos Marmol. Rock on, setup man.
Johnny Ruffin (989)
John Wetteland (984)
Jim Ray (983)
Dickie Noles (981)
Frank Gabler (980)
Bob Scanlan (980)
Jack Banta (980)
Ramon Monzant (979)
Diego Segui (978)
Ken Sanders (978
Oof.
Best Regards
John
But of course Rollins's total contribution includes 527 outs. More contribution at a low rate of OBP equals more negative contribution.
This award is somewhat like Ken Boyer's in 1964: no doubt that it was a fine season, and the MVP led the league in an important category for a team that had a great stretch run, but if the final standings had been slightly different, the award would have been very different. It underscores again that MVP does not equal the best individual player in the league. Often it doesn't, and that's OK -- I mean, there's nothing wrong with a Key Player on a First-Place Team award -- but people should point out when that player isn't also the best player.
2007 is in the midst of that date range? Did Jimmy Rollins win MVP in the midst of the 21st century?
FWIW, Harris, in 2006 I thought it should have gone to Pujols, NOT a Met (Beltran being the leading Mets' candidate). So there was no crying over it not going to a Met.
This year, it's at least understandable under the usual grounds that the voters prefer a guy who plays for a team that makes the post-season, and the Mets screwed it up. But of course, even if the Mets had won two more games and held up the Phillies, the writers still would have given it to Rollins, so that is a limited defense of the whole thing.
Whatever. David Wright is the best player in the league, and the true MVP in 207. I don't really need the writers to agree with me in that view. Congrats to Rollins.
It was a comment on the voting, not on the merits. In 1998, Jeter finished 3rd in MVP voting when he led the AL in Runs. In 1999, when Jeter clearly had a better year (and would've been a fine choice for MVP), he finished 6th in MVP voting when he was tied for 2nd in Runs. In 1999, Alomar led the AL in Runs (also having a terrific all-around season) and finished 3rd in the MVP vote. Voters like a player who leads the league in RBI, HR, AVG or RUNS. This is not exactly news. Leading the league in Runs carries the least weight of the four, but it can help a scrappy, top-of-the-order hitter like Rollins.
As a Met fan, Utley would have been a much better choice than Rollins.
I know Rollins used up a couple-three outs this year, but this is probably a better choice than 7 out of 10.
Jake Peavy 7th actually speaks well of the BBWAA. Oh, wait, it's the BBWAA. Dumb lucky. But seeing a pitcher treated fairly is cool.
Means during or at the same time as. So yes, 2007 is in the midst of 2006-2016. And yes, Rollins won in the midst of the 21st century.
But of course, even if the Mets had won two more games and held up the Phillies, the writers still would have given it to Rollins, so that is a limited defense of the whole thing.
I don't think this is true, Sam. Mets hold off the Phils, New York overcame the late challenge from their bullpen, saved by Wright's .462 BA. I think he would have taken home the award.
I thought then, and now, that only missing the playoffs would have denied him the award.
Utley: 44
Rollins : 28
Howard: 38
Holliday: 49
Wright: 58
Chipper: 56
Prince: 49
Albert: 55
<edit: BRAA is not position adjusted>
F*ck Rollins.
Lemme see. Beltran, Ramirez, Ramirez, Chipper, Braun, Chase, Hanley and Wright all play important defensive positions.
Rollins? Wasn't he the DH? I forget.
There is no way that Rollins was providing a "negative contribution." What he was doing, was contributing less positive contribution per plate appearance than the other very best players in the entire league. Fine. But in the specific context of the MVP voting -- the most valuable player in the past 162 games -- I think it's perfectly reasonable to say he can make it up with playing time, much like Sabathia can be worse per inning than Beckett but still deserve the Cy more because he threw more innings. Did Rollins do so? I dunno. But it was probably pretty close.I don't at all know that this is true. If the Mets make the playoffs, Wright becomes a completely different candidate in the writers' eyes, IMO. We'll never know, obviously. But, this Met fan both feels that Wright would have been more deserving than Rollins, and, knowing that no Met was ever gonna win given the way the voters think and the way that the Mets lost, is ok with it being Rollins.
I agree with you.
Not sure if you mean that this is wrong.
I was there. It wasn't as bad as everyone thinks. In fact, it was correct.
Which is nuts, IMO.
I told a number of people this past summer "I don't think you know just how good he's been."
No, the script was written about the Mets and Wright's candidacy long before the outcome was known. He was doomed even if they'd held on; Rollins had gotten credit just for inspiring the Phillies' charge, and was going to win (or at least finish in the top two with Holliday) regardless of the actual result of the division race. Wright would have finished higher, no doubt -- leapfrogging Fielder -- but his ceiling was third.
I predicted they would get the NL MVP wrong, but not THIS wrong. I can't see Rollins as being above 5th or 6th. I figure Wright was the corect choice but good arguments could be made for Holliday or Pujols. This is out of nowhere.
Ryan Howard got votes? I'm floored, especially with the strikeout record.
Errr, why do people hate Beltran?
Are you saying that no CF can ever be worth as much as a decent SS? Or are you saying that Jimmy Rollins has some ineffable quality which makes him the best defensive player, regardless of results?
I don't think this was all that bad a vote (and it's mostly because of the preseason statement), but it's easy to come up with 5 players more valuable than Rollins this year under almost any metric.
FWIW.
So, how much a better baserunner was Rollins than normal, and how much was circumstance?
Here was my BBTF ballot:
Wright
Pujols
Peavy
Utley
Cabrera
Ramirez
Holliday
Beltran
Rollins
Fielder
Bill James has him as the 2nd best baserunner in the NL, slightly behind Reyes.
More negative, less positive; Roma, Plum; Russet, Idaho:)
I like Tulo as much as the next guy, but a third place vote?
As for Rollins - I'm happy to see that he won it as I'm a Phillies fan. My FPV would have gone for Holliday. 2/3 of the triple crown (I think) and not like he won the batting title with a 314 avg. It wasn't Gwynnesque, but respectable.
Wright had a nice year. He's probably more likely to win it next year than is Rollins. My take on him is that he's kind of 'sterile'. Ask somebody from LA to give and adjective for David Wright and I bet they scratch their head. Just needs some more publicity for a little longer. He's an awesome all around player and I sure as hell wish he played 3B in philly instead of the circus we've had post Rolen (or post-Schmidt if you add in Rolen's reception in Philly). Wright will get his chances.
Years from now I'm thinking the 2007 NL MVP elextion is going to be that blank spot in most peoples memory when trying to recall past MVP's. I'm also betting another SS suffers from the same problem.
Not at all! I was talking about and for myself. I don't distinguish "more negative" from "less positive": it's a game, you're either out or safe, and one is bad and the other is good. If you want to frame the issue differently, that's quite OK.
I'm putting all you Mets in the filter except Sam.
You can't pull for a NY team and whine. It's against the rules.
* I assume I don't have to point out here that production <> OBP.
Rollins had a fine season to go with his scrappiness.
I am glad for Prince though 3rd place is too high. Clearly.
Don't you mean raw athleticsm?
Actually, I can do that almost indefinitely :-D
No, really, this is like, just chat on a Primer thread, I don't think it's a real serious philosophical dispute. I said in #55 that Rollins had a fine season, which is true. He also made a huge number of outs, and others had pointed out his mediocre OBP. I am sorry if I offended you.
It appears most people to achieve that HAVE NOT won the MVP. Not what I would have expected.
# Hrs/Player/Yr/MVP finish
64 Sammy Sosa, Chicago (N.L.) 2001 0.328 2
58 Hank Greenberg, Detroit (A.L.) 1938 0.315 3
57 Luis Gonzalez. Arizona (N.L.) 2001 0.325 3
57 Alex Rodriguez, Texas (A.L.) 2002 0.300 2
54 Ralph Kiner, Pittsburgh (N.L.) 1949 0.310 4
52 Jim Thome, Cleveland (A.L.) 2002 0.304 7
51 Ralph Kiner, Pittsburgh (N.L.) 1947 0.313 6
51 John Mize, New York (N.L.) 1947 0.302 3
51 Willie Mays, New York (N.L.) 1955 0.319 4
50 Albert Belle, Cleveland (A.L.) 1995 0.317 2
50 Sammy Sosa, Chicago (N.L.) 2000 0.320 9
(Doesn't include the Babe Ruth seasons with no place finish when he didn't win MVP)
Rollins is black, but he's also short.
<brains of sportswriters spontaneously explode>
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