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Monday, December 16, 2013

MLB reaches agreement with NPB on Revised Posting System

The Office of the Commissioner of Major League Baseball (MLB) announced today that it has agreed to terms with Nippon Professional Baseball (NPB) on revised protocols for the posting system shared by the leagues. MLB’s Executive Council approved the new agreement today.

Swedish Chef Posted: December 16, 2013 at 06:30 PM | 56 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: business, hot stove, japan, mlb, nbp

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   1. Swedish Chef Posted: December 16, 2013 at 07:04 PM (#4619183)
The new system seems like a huge win for Japanese players. And the Yankees.
   2. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: December 16, 2013 at 07:07 PM (#4619185)
The new system seems like a huge win for Japanese players. And screws the Yankees.
   3. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 16, 2013 at 07:09 PM (#4619187)
Oh it's clearly another anti-Yankee screw job by MLB, just throw it on the pile.
   4. JJ1986 Posted: December 16, 2013 at 07:13 PM (#4619190)
Why in the world would NPB agree to this? The market price for the top pitchers was >$50 million.
   5. Paul D(uda) Posted: December 16, 2013 at 07:14 PM (#4619191)
We've been down this road before, but I think you guys are being short-sighted on this. Long term this gives the Yankees (and Red Sox) a huge advantage in signing guys from NPB. It hurts against the luxury tax now, but it also gives them a huge edge at signing players in the future. I mean, now, the Yankees can just throw in a $20 million bid for any player they're remotely interested in, and they have the cultural and financial advantages to sign that player in a way that, say, Texas can't. This is a huge long term win for the Yankees.
   6. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 16, 2013 at 07:25 PM (#4619197)
I agree with #1,4 and 5.
   7. The Yankee Clapper Posted: December 16, 2013 at 07:33 PM (#4619200)
. . . the Yankees can just throw in a $20 million bid for any player they're remotely interested in, and they have the cultural and financial advantages to sign that player in a way that, say, Texas can't.

Not every Japanese player is worth $20M plus whatever salary they negotiate. Teams are going to be selective. This agreement gives the Japanese player a choice as to what team he goes to if there are multiple teams interested, and it likely gives the player a larger share of the posting fee/salary split. In a free country, who can object to that?
   8. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 16, 2013 at 07:33 PM (#4619201)
I agree with #2,3 and 4.
   9. Cabbage Posted: December 16, 2013 at 07:34 PM (#4619202)
Why in the world would NPB agree to this? The market price for the top pitchers was >$50 million.


Maybe MLB threatened to start poaching young Japanese talent?

"Fine, don't lower your posting fees. We'll bar the posting system and just sign your best HS players."
   10. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 16, 2013 at 07:41 PM (#4619209)
It hurts against the luxury tax now


It will always hurt against the Yankee Tax. That's why the Yankee Tax exists. Why they just tweaked it a couple of years ago to make sure it hurt even more, thus this preposterous effort to get under an arbitrary salary milestone based on salaries determined by a fair market before the rules were changed to increase penalties.
   11. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 16, 2013 at 07:42 PM (#4619211)
Why in the world would NPB agree to this? The market price for the top pitchers was >$50 million.

Maybe MLB threatened to start poaching young Japanese talent?

"Fine, don't lower your posting fees. We'll bar the posting system and just sign your best HS players."


Why that does sound like the sort of anti-market bullying a crook like Bud Selig would engage in doesn't it.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 16, 2013 at 07:47 PM (#4619213)
We've been down this road before, but I think you guys are being short-sighted on this. Long term this gives the Yankees (and Red Sox) a huge advantage in signing guys from NPB. It hurts against the luxury tax now, but it also gives them a huge edge at signing players in the future. I mean, now, the Yankees can just throw in a $20 million bid for any player they're remotely interested in, and they have the cultural and financial advantages to sign that player in a way that, say, Texas can't. This is a huge long term win for the Yankees.

Concur.

The existing posting system has been a disaster for the Yankees. Have they gotten anybody good?

It's much better for them to be able to negotiate in the open, and not have to try and "guess the number" to post.
   13. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 16, 2013 at 08:01 PM (#4619218)
The existing posting system has been a disaster for the Yankees. Have they gotten anybody good?


Who have they gone after?
   14. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 16, 2013 at 08:01 PM (#4619219)
I agree with 2, 3, 4, 7, and 14.
   15. JE (Jason) Posted: December 16, 2013 at 08:06 PM (#4619220)
I agree with 1, 4, 5, and 12 on Mondays but find 2, 3, 4, 17, and 14 reasonably convincing on alternate Thursdays. Otherwise, count me as just trying to get along.

Oh, and I wish to subscribe to everyone's newsletter.
   16. SG Posted: December 16, 2013 at 08:08 PM (#4619221)
I disagree with 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14 and 15.
   17. Randy Jones Posted: December 16, 2013 at 08:19 PM (#4619230)
I hate every one of you.
   18. JJ1986 Posted: December 16, 2013 at 08:26 PM (#4619233)
Maybe MLB threatened to start poaching young Japanese talent?

"Fine, don't lower your posting fees. We'll bar the posting system and just sign your best HS players."


I think the threat of NPB poaching American and Puerto Rican HS players would be much more substantial than the other way around. Selig really doesn't want anyone offering amateurs more money than his new rules allow MLB teams to pay them.
   19. Paul D(uda) Posted: December 16, 2013 at 09:35 PM (#4619258)
Not every Japanese player is worth $20M plus whatever salary they negotiate. Teams are going to be selective. This agreement gives the Japanese player a choice as to what team he goes to if there are multiple teams interested, and it likely gives the player a larger share of the posting fee/salary split. In a free country, who can object to that?

I don't object to that, but I think it helps the biggest market teams.
   20. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: December 16, 2013 at 09:35 PM (#4619259)
I think the threat of NPB poaching American and Puerto Rican HS players would be much more substantial than the other way around. Selig really doesn't want anyone offering amateurs more money than his new rules allow MLB teams to pay them.


Considering that Tanaka was only going to make $5 million in NPB next year, I don't think there's much risk there.
   21. Randy Jones Posted: December 16, 2013 at 09:39 PM (#4619262)
I think the threat of NPB poaching American and Puerto Rican HS players would be much more substantial than the other way around. Selig really doesn't want anyone offering amateurs more money than his new rules allow MLB teams to pay them.


If there is no posting agreement, MLB teams can just sign the best players out of NPB. The leagues don't have to honor each other's contracts and MLB has a shitload more money to offer players.
   22. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 16, 2013 at 09:47 PM (#4619266)
Except MLB teams can only sign the best players if they are over a certain age, since they have the new ridiculous system that limits international "amateur" signing bonuses.
   23. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 16, 2013 at 09:49 PM (#4619267)
Who have they gone after?

How soon we forget the Kei Igawa experience.

That's the point. They've gotten nobody. So, how could the new system be worse?
   24. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 16, 2013 at 09:57 PM (#4619270)
That's the point. They've gotten nobody. So, how could the new system be worse?


Step 1: Assume the Yankees are the victims.
Step 2: Any change will be worse. Why? See Step 1.


And no I am not making fun of you, snapper.
   25. tfbg9 Posted: December 16, 2013 at 10:09 PM (#4619277)
They were in on Matsuzaka, I think. Somebody else, with a better memory of the the events?
   26. cardsfanboy Posted: December 16, 2013 at 10:11 PM (#4619278)
I like this system, even before I found out YR hated it. Anyone who thinks Marvin Miller belongs in the hof, should support this. As pointed out, it's a huge win for the player, which is probably the only party involved in this, that I care one whit about. I've always thought that the posting fee should have counted against the luxury tax in some way, this now reduces that amount, but at the same time is going to up the salary for the individual players.
   27. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: December 16, 2013 at 10:59 PM (#4619302)
Didn't they get Irabu and Matsui?

Were they posted players? Or just FA's? On second thought, didn't they trade for Irabu? With San Diego?

I'm not sure I helped at all. Carry on, folks.
   28. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 16, 2013 at 11:07 PM (#4619312)
Didn't they get Irabu and Matsui?

Were they posted players? Or just FA's? On second thought, didn't they trade for Irabu? With San Diego?

I'm not sure I helped at all. Carry on, folks.


Matsui had played nine-and-a-half seasons in NPB, so he qualified as free agent. He didn't have to be posted, because Yomiuri no longer held his rights. Irabu was purchased by the Padres from Chiba Lotte, and then traded to the Yankees.
   29. KJOK Posted: December 16, 2013 at 11:21 PM (#4619320)
Why in the world would NPB agree to this? The market price for the top pitchers was >$50 million.


Right, if they post them young enough and with the player a couple of years away from free agency (giving the player maximimum incentive to sign) but with a cap of $20 million, there is at least some incentive for the Japanese teams to simply keep their top free- agents-to-be up to the last possible posting year, or even not post them, as the best players are probably worth at least $20 million to a Japanese team. In theory this will make the NPB fans happy.

Also, under the old system, even if an MLB team bid $50 million, if they didn't come to terms with the player, the NPB team simply got nothing.

With the new system, they are almost guaranteed $20 million every time they post a good player, as several MLB teams are likely to bid at that price, and the player as noted is likely to get a contract they're willing to sign from at least one of those teams.
   30. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 16, 2013 at 11:31 PM (#4619322)

That's the point. They've gotten nobody. So, how could the new system be worse?


The Yankees hadn't wanted anybody. The didn't make a serious bid on Darvish.

All this latest scheme does is ensure that more of the total sum spent on acquiring a Japanese ballplayer counts against the Yankee Tax. It doesn't mean anything to any other team. It's nice that the player gets a bit more money out of it but I don't think even you pumpkins would claim the man who brought us market-depressing caps on every other form of incoming ballplayer suddenly felt his heart grow three sizes when he saw lil' Tanaka's big anime eyes.
   31. cardsfanboy Posted: December 16, 2013 at 11:48 PM (#4619327)
The Yankees hadn't wanted anybody. The didn't make a serious bid on Darvish.

All this latest scheme does is ensure that more of the total sum spent on acquiring a Japanese ballplayer counts against the Yankee Tax. It doesn't mean anything to any other team. It's nice that the player gets a bit more money out of it but I don't think even you pumpkins would claim the man who brought us market-depressing caps on every other form of incoming ballplayer suddenly felt his heart grow three sizes when he saw lil' Tanaka's big anime eyes.


You know, my brother has a persecution complex.... and you are reminding me of him a lot with this convoluted way of looking at it.

This boils down to one thing, and one thing only. A player who is posted is going to get multiple teams bidding on him, and won't have to compromise his contract in order to get the chance to play in MLB.

   32. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: December 17, 2013 at 12:13 AM (#4619334)
I understand why YR is so upset. The small town, small budget Yankees can't even keep their homegrown stars from signing with the bright lights of Seattle, how can they possibly pay Japanese free agents as well as other teams?
   33. Ziggy Posted: December 17, 2013 at 12:24 AM (#4619339)
Why would either MLB or NPB agree to this new deal? It can't be any better than neutral for MLB, since more money is going to Japanese players. (I presume that whatever the difference is between old posting fees and new posting fees will end up with the player.) And it's worse for NPB, since money that had been going to teams is now going to players. Was the Japanese players union party to these negotiations?
   34. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 17, 2013 at 12:28 AM (#4619344)
They were in on Matsuzaka, I think. Somebody else, with a better memory of the the events?


Yeah, the Yankees, like everyone else, assumed Matsuzaka was theirs. They submitted a bid they were sure no one would be crazy enough to top. The Red Sox nearly doubled it.

Ziggy: It's neutral for MLB as a whole (the contracts the Japanese players get will remain about the same when you include the posting fee) but it's a rare case where both the Yankees (because it's now open bidding where they will be able to outbid everyone for whoever they want) and everyone else (because a higher percentage of the money the Yankees pay will count against the Yankee tax; the posting fee doesn't count and now the posting fee will be much lower) likes the new system better than the old system.
   35. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: December 17, 2013 at 12:30 AM (#4619348)
Matsui had played nine-and-a-half seasons in NPB, so he qualified as free agent. He didn't have to be posted, because Yomiuri no longer held his rights. Irabu was purchased by the Padres from Chiba Lotte, and then traded to the Yankees.


Thanks Vortex. I don't follow NPB at all, so I didn't know the nuances. Thanks.
   36. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: December 17, 2013 at 12:31 AM (#4619349)
The NPB team sets the posting fee according to TFA.
   37. John Northey Posted: December 17, 2013 at 12:32 AM (#4619350)
For MLB it is much better as teams no longer have to play the guessing game on posting fees, and with the general rule being the player expecting at least as much in pay it was a bit expensive. Now if a player is worth $20+ million to a club over 6 years they can bid $20 mil and not go nuts over just where to put the magic dollar figure ahead of time. Then it becomes the same as free agency except with a more limited number of teams and with clubs knowing for sure which teams they are battling against unlike in free agency.
   38. cardsfanboy Posted: December 17, 2013 at 12:36 AM (#4619352)
Why would either MLB or NPB agree to this new deal? It can't be any better than neutral for MLB, since more money is going to Japanese players. (I presume that whatever the difference is between old posting fees and new posting fees will end up with the player.) And it's worse for NPB, since money that had been going to teams is now going to players. Was the Japanese players union party to these negotiations?


As YR points out, this adds potentially more money to the salary cap pool. From MLB's perspective it increases fan interest in the posted players. MLB has always been very concerned with making the news cycle during the off season, this can help it and it adds intrigue, instead of fans waiting for one team to announce the signing, they get two news cycles. Announcing of the posting and the actual signing, with 30 days in between of rumors and the daily "will team X be making a signing?"

And what 34 and 37 said.
   39. ptodd Posted: December 17, 2013 at 12:40 AM (#4619356)
Why in the world would NPB agree to this? The market price for the top pitchers was >$50 million.


Remember, we are not dealing with cattle but people. It was the NPB who initiated a change due to pressure from their players union who were fed up with the old system that slave traders would have been proud of. Their original proposal was an average of the top 2 bids which would have lowered the posting fee significantly, at least for awhile. MLB almost went for it until some of the smaller market owners suggested more radical changes. Nobody every envisioned MLB teams would be so cash flush as to drop 50 million on rookie pitchers just so they could get the pitcher at a reduced AAV

Don't feel bad for the Japanese teams. They have been getting rich at the players expense, and will just get a little less rich. Payrolls and revenues are 1/4 to 1/5 what they are in MLB. That 20 million is the equivalent of 80-100 million for a MLB team. When you consider the Eagles payroll without Tanakas 4 million is only 20 million, they should be ok. Their revenue potential is shot since the Tsunami when they lost their stadium and play elsewhere, so its not like Tanaka is going to earn them 20 million in revenue by himself.
   40. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 17, 2013 at 12:42 AM (#4619359)
I disagree with 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14 and 15.

I will agree with #43.
   41. Ziggy Posted: December 17, 2013 at 12:43 AM (#4619362)
Yeah, as far as I can tell it's neutral for MLB. I don't see why NPB agreed to it. It puts a cap on posting fees; the Matsuzaka fee was $50m and he got 5/$50. Now the posting fee would be $20 and he'd get something like 5/$80. Why did the NPB teams agree to give away that money?
   42. ptodd Posted: December 17, 2013 at 12:55 AM (#4619371)
Right, if they post them young enough and with the player a couple of years away from free agency (giving the player maximimum incentive to sign) but with a cap of $20 million, there is at least some incentive for the Japanese teams to simply keep their top free- agents-to-be up to the last possible posting year, or even not post them, as the best players are probably worth at least $20 million to a Japanese team. In theory this will make the NPB fans happy


Tanaka was the highest paid player on his team by far at 4 million a year (IIRCC the top salary in NPB is around 7 million). Revenues and salary are 1/4-1/5 that of MLB. The Eagles entire payroll for a championship team was 25 million, its doubtful Tanaka is worth 20 million to them over 1 or even 2 years

While they could delay posting for 1 year, why would you think the player would accept it?. The player recognizes 20 million in posting comes out of his earnings in the MLB, so why would not the player simply wait 1 year to be a free agent? The salary differential for that 1 year will be less than 20 million over X years. That's why players get posted 2 years before, because teams recognize this. If not for the risk of injury, players would probably wait for free agency. Kind of like extensions in the MLB, you are more likely to get a player to do an extension a couple of years before free agency, or before arbitration, than waiting until the last year before free agency.
   43. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 17, 2013 at 12:59 AM (#4619373)
Yeah, as far as I can tell it's neutral for MLB. I don't see why NPB agreed to it. It puts a cap on posting fees; the Matsuzaka fee was $50m and he got 5/$50. Now the posting fee would be $20 and he'd get something like 5/$80. Why did the NPB teams agree to give away that money?


Because the alternative is MLB raiding Japanese high school talent and NPB never having any stars at all.
   44. villageidiom Posted: December 17, 2013 at 01:16 AM (#4619381)
Maybe MLB threatened to start poaching young Japanese talent?
Threatened? No. Actually started signing players before they ever signed with NPB? Yes. Junichi Tazawa was one.

The Yankees hadn't wanted anybody. The didn't make a serious bid on Darvish.
But they made a bid, which suggests they wanted him. And they wanted Matsuzaka. And I believe there were others the Yankees bid on, but failed to bid the top amount, but I'm not doing the research tonight. The tautology (that the Yankees didn't get anyone because they didn't want anyone, because if they wanted them they would have gotten them) should be dropped.

The rest of your post is typical trolling, and doesn't warrant a response. There's a nugget of a valid point in there, like a piece of undigested corn in a large pile of feces. It's a pity you aren't aware that that's not how people normally serve corn.
   45. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 17, 2013 at 01:20 AM (#4619383)
Everyone, definitely including the Yankees, was absolutely astounded at the Red Sox' bid of over $50 million on Matsuzaka.
   46. tshipman Posted: December 17, 2013 at 01:28 AM (#4619387)
Wasn't there a lot of speculation when Darvish came out regarding how the posting fees actually worked?

In other words, that teams regularly had to kick back cash to the player being posted from the fee. Supposedly, Darvish/Matsuzaka got close to half of the amount of the posting fee. This is all from memory and I can't find the source.
   47. Cabbage Posted: December 17, 2013 at 02:40 AM (#4619400)
Right, if they post them young enough and with the player a couple of years away from free agency (giving the player maximimum incentive to sign) but with a cap of $20 million, there is at least some incentive for the Japanese teams to simply keep their top free- agents-to-be up to the last possible posting year, or even not post them, as the best players are probably worth at least $20 million to a Japanese team. In theory this will make the NPB fans happy.


Just browsing the wiki page for Japanese baseball makes me think the economics of the NPB are even more screwed up than MLB's. MLB might ride the gravy train off subsidized stadiums (stadia?), cable contracts that wont last forever, and overpriced beer; but it sounds like the NPB just leaves money sitting on the table.

I mean, there are ~125 million people in Japan, it is a first world country, and they can't make a popular professional sport rich? A quick bit of googling barfed out the idea that Barcelona's (Spain pop. ~50 million) payroll was close to 300 million euro! Yet NPB teams appear to still rely on direct subsidies from their corporate sponsors to break even. It sounds like teams regularly face the threat of closing down. It's not like this is KeSPA (Go PartinG! Soul Train!)-- the NPB should be a very profitable little thing.

Anyone know if I'm wrong or have another explanation?
   48. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: December 17, 2013 at 03:39 AM (#4619406)
Just browsing the wiki page for Japanese baseball makes me think the economics of the NPB are even more screwed up than MLB's. MLB might ride the gravy train off subsidized stadiums (stadia?), cable contracts that wont last forever, and overpriced beer; but it sounds like the NPB just leaves money sitting on the table.

I mean, there are ~125 million people in Japan, it is a first world country, and they can't make a popular professional sport rich? A quick bit of googling barfed out the idea that Barcelona's (Spain pop. ~50 million) payroll was close to 300 million euro! Yet NPB teams appear to still rely on direct subsidies from their corporate sponsors to break even. It sounds like teams regularly face the threat of closing down. It's not like this is KeSPA (Go PartinG! Soul Train!)-- the NPB should be a very profitable little thing.

Anyone know if I'm wrong or have another explanation?

Teams like Barca are raking in cash from the international TV rights and merchandise sales. If Barca were relying only on local revenue, their payroll would be a lot smaller. The global game, in so far as it exists for baseball (which is dwarfed by global football), belongs to MLB. Those revenue streams simply aren't available to NPB team.
   49. Swedish Chef Posted: December 17, 2013 at 04:39 AM (#4619410)
Teams like Barca are raking in cash from the international TV rights and merchandise sales. If Barca were relying only on local revenue, their payroll would be a lot smaller.

The lion's part of what they make they make on TV locally and Champions League, because Spain's clubs actually do sell the international rights collectively. It helps that Real and Barca does get more than half of the total TV revenue despite not owning half their own games.

Merchandise is a earner, but the biggest other thing are corporate sponsorships, they're an international brand that attracts other international brands.

Not that it is a very good example of what Japanese baseball could be, because outside Barca and Real Spanish soccer is an economic wasteland.
   50. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 17, 2013 at 08:15 AM (#4619416)
The Yankees hadn't wanted anybody. The didn't make a serious bid on Darvish.

But they made a bid, which suggests they wanted him.


As reported by Heyman:

The Yankees made only a modest efort [sic] at Yu Darvish, submitting a posting bid of $15 million, which was well below the Rangers' winning $51.703,411 bid.


That's less than they bid for Igawa.
   51. Brian Posted: December 17, 2013 at 09:48 AM (#4619438)
The Yankees bought Alfonso Soriano from the Hiroshima Toyo Carp way back in 1998.
   52. villageidiom Posted: December 17, 2013 at 10:20 AM (#4619449)
That's less than they bid for Igawa.
The Yankees have offered each player in league history less than they offered A-Rod. And they have made it pretty clear they don't want A-Rod. Therefore, the Yankees want no players, and never have. It's a wonder they've managed to field a team at all.
   53. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 17, 2013 at 11:12 AM (#4619476)
   54. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 17, 2013 at 12:05 PM (#4619531)
It's not like this is KeSPA (Go PartinG! Soul Train!)

Wasn't expecting any other eSports fans on this site (although I follow League of Legends more than StarCraft these days). I'm sad that Woongjin Stars disbanded, since they were my favorite team when I was following Brood War and Zero was my favorite player.
   55. Randy Jones Posted: December 17, 2013 at 01:15 PM (#4619603)
Teams like Barca are raking in cash from the international TV rights and merchandise sales. If Barca were relying only on local revenue, their payroll would be a lot smaller.

The lion's part of what they make they make on TV locally and Champions League, because Spain's clubs actually do sell the international rights collectively. It helps that Real and Barca does get more than half of the total TV revenue despite not owning half their own games.

I think it was the swissramble that posted the split for the international TV rights for La Liga a year or two ago. It was something like Barca and RM get ~€140M, the next few teams like Athletico Madrid and Valencia were getting around €40M and most of the teams got something in the €5M-€15M range.
   56. Cabbage Posted: December 17, 2013 at 03:00 PM (#4619671)
Wasn't expecting any other eSports fans on this site (although I follow League of Legends more than StarCraft these days). I'm sad that Woongjin Stars disbanded, since they were my favorite team when I was following Brood War and Zero was my favorite player.


I can't say I'm very interested in LOL. I don't have much time for gaming, so I'm not about to pickup another game. And if you're not playing the game, it's not very much fun to watch. One cannot truly appreciate a well-timed marine split until one has tried to split, failed, and eaten a face full of banelings.

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