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Monday, November 09, 2009

MLB: Red Sox keep Wakefield with two-year deal

And not a tiefenauer too soon!

Knuckleballer Tim Wakefield will not only be back for a 16th season with the Red Sox, but likely a 17th.

Facing a Monday deadline to pick up Wakefield’s $4 million club option, the Red Sox instead agreed to a two-year pact with the veteran right-hander.

While the Red Sox, as is their club policy, did not reveal terms of the deal, WEEI.com reported that it was worth a guaranteed $5 million. Wakefield will reportedly make $3.5 million in 2010 and $1.5 million in ‘11, with incentives giving the righty a chance to bring the total value of the contract to $7 million.

...With two more years in Boston now likely, Wakefield has a chance to achieve two milestones he is eyeing. Wakefield is just 11 wins shy of 200 for his career, but the number that would mean even more to him is 193 wins in a Red Sox uniform, which he is currently 17 away from reaching. Cy Young and Roger Clemens are tied with 192 wins, the all-time record for a Red Sox pitcher.

Repoz Posted: November 09, 2009 at 10:45 PM | 76 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: red sox

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   1. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: November 09, 2009 at 10:52 PM (#3383433)
Wow, they actually lowered his contract further? I guess he's not exactly a picture of health these days, but still. I guess Varitek will finally have to figure out how to catch the knuckleball again. That should be entertaining.
   2. Darnell McDonald had a farm Posted: November 09, 2009 at 10:54 PM (#3383440)
Livin' a lie Timmy
   3. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 09, 2009 at 10:56 PM (#3383448)
Wow, they actually lowered his contract further?

Yeah, that's surprising. He's worked for cheap for so many years you'd think they'd just throw the guy a bone and pay him the $4M. Pretty petty on the Red Sox part.
   4. Mister High Standards Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:00 PM (#3383452)
Pretty petty on the Red Sox part.


You can't expect a Yankee fan to know the value of a dollar.
   5. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:02 PM (#3383457)
You can't expect a Yankee fan to know the value of a dollar.

True, that :-)
   6. Nasty Nate Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:06 PM (#3383468)
Sweet. It would have been sad if he went out on a cold night blowout loss backed by minor leaguers the night after a clinch.

Pretty petty on the Red Sox part.


Especially big meanie when they grabbed his hand and forced him to sign this contract.
   7. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:07 PM (#3383470)
If he is moderately healthy and effective the next two years (40-45 starts) this sets him up well to break the Sox' record for career wins. He needs 17 more to tie Young & Clemens and two more years should get him there. This makes it pretty likely that will happen.
   8. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:11 PM (#3383474)
Especially big meanie when they grabbed his hand and forced him to sign this contract.

There is something called generosity to a long-time employee who only wants to play for your team.
   9. Cowboy Popup Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:11 PM (#3383475)
They Pettitted (take this lower offer or GFY) Wakefield. I wonder what they do at the end of this contract.
   10. 33Boots Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:14 PM (#3383478)
After extensive thought, I have come to this conclusion: Tim Wakefield really likes playing for the Boston Red Sox.


Or, he has the world's worst agent. Maybe both.
   11. Nobody ##### with DeJesus Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:16 PM (#3383483)
If he is moderately healthy and effective the next two years (40-45 starts) this sets him up well to break the Sox' record for career wins. He needs 17 more to tie Young & Clemens and two more years should get him there. This makes it pretty likely that will happen.

That would be so awesome.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:18 PM (#3383485)
They Pettitted (take this lower offer or GFY) Wakefield. I wonder what they do at the end of this contract.

Hell, Pettitte still made $10.5M with incentives, and he had never been below market before. This seems like a worse screwing, given that Wakefield has been pitching for <50% of his market value since 2006.
   13. Nasty Nate Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:19 PM (#3383486)
There is something called generosity to a long-time employee who only wants to play for your team.


seems like Wake feels like he's being treated well.
   14. Nasty Nate Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:23 PM (#3383489)
Also, it is obvious that Wake's future non-salary income potential is much bigger than the $500,000 or whatever that he could eke out of some other team.



...in other news: as expected, Sox did not pick up Varitek's $5 million option.
   15. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:23 PM (#3383490)
How about the fact that he is hurt by July most seasons like clockwork? Maybe they just want to pay him for his half seasons of stellar work each year??
   16. aleskel Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:25 PM (#3383491)
I think the Red Sox deserve a discount on Wakefield because he basically costs them 2 roster spots with whichever poor schmuck they find to catch him.
   17. Martin Hemner Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:28 PM (#3383495)
Wake had a great first half, and then his body gave out on him. He had to see what happened to Jamie Moyer this year. I can't imagine he's confident about playing in 2011.

If he thinks that next year may be his last, then he made himself an extra million if the Sox have to cut him. If he hits the incentives, he's only sold himself a million short over the two year span. Seems like a reasonable hedge.
   18. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:28 PM (#3383496)
It would be really awesome if Wakefield had a huge 2011 and signed a $16 million per year deal with somebody for 2012-2020.
   19. tjm1 Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:37 PM (#3383507)
They Pettitted (take this lower offer or GFY) Wakefield. I wonder what they do at the end of this contract.


It's not so clear. He's got $5 million guaranteed for the next two years. He might only have one year left in him. Also, he'll be 45 at the end of this contract. He'll probably retire.
   20. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:46 PM (#3383514)
I loves me the Wakefield. But waiting for him to surpass Cy Young and Roger Clemens for all-time Red Sox wins is like watching Mariah Carey's inexorable ascent past Elvis Presley and the Beatles for the most #1 singles.
   21. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:49 PM (#3383517)
I wonder what they do at the end of this contract.


I imagine whatever Tim wants. I'd be stunned if 30 years from now he weren't employed by the Boston Red Sox. His off-season home I think is close to Ft. Myers and he is terribly popular with the fans. If he wants to be Johnny Pesky for the next generation, the job is his. For all the arguments about his contract being team-friendly (and it is) he has made over $50 million in his career and given his low profile M.O. I'd be surprised if he wasn't in extremely good shape financially.
   22. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:52 PM (#3383522)
Heck, I'd imagine that he's in the top few of dollars per inning or dollars per pitching win for the last twenty years.
   23. Hugh Jorgan Posted: November 09, 2009 at 11:56 PM (#3383528)
Wow, they actually lowered his contract further?

Exactly my initial reaction. However, as pointed out above, no one forced him to sign, and he seems happy with the situation. I have no doubt that after his playing days the organisation will find a place for him. I like Wake as much as the next baseball purist, however this slow march towards the 193 wins could be painful in the end. He doesn't cost the Sox any players, only a small amount of cash, so it's a good signing/re-signing by them. Now if they can just find another catcher and a decent SS, I'd be happy.
   24. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: November 10, 2009 at 12:02 AM (#3383532)
It would be really awesome if Wakefield had a huge 2011 and signed a $16 million per year deal with somebody for 2012-2020.

Yo, Chris Farley: Wakefield is gonna be 74 at the end of this contract. He's lucky they're offering him anything at all. I think 2 years is crazy, and I bet his back gives out next year. I'm not wishing for it. It looked like he was in tough shape the 2nd half of last year, especially near the end.

As Charlie Hough said, it isn't getting guys out that's the problem, it's beating them to first on slow rollers to the right side. When you can't do that anymore, you're done, and Wake is near that, if not already there.
   25. Gamingboy Posted: November 10, 2009 at 12:09 AM (#3383541)
LONG LIVE THE KNUCKLEBALL!
   26. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: November 10, 2009 at 12:54 AM (#3383562)
Not sure what was more enjoyable this year - watching Wake run to first or watching Ortiz bat in April/May
   27. Blackadder Posted: November 10, 2009 at 12:54 AM (#3383563)
I second #21, albeit with mildly liking Wakefield instead of loving him.
   28. Fat Al Posted: November 10, 2009 at 12:57 AM (#3383565)
Or, he has the world's worst agent. Maybe both.


He has an agent? Seriously? There's no way someone other than TW negotiated this contract and is getting a piece of it. I just refuse to believe it.
   29. Dave Cyprian Posted: November 10, 2009 at 01:55 AM (#3383603)
I don't care that about three other people already said it. I logged into Sox Therapy to say it so here goes: I can't believe he is taking home an even smaller paycheck! This is unbelievable.

I guess he is guaranteed $5 million today instead of $4 million, but the contract's top end is less than his '09 salary... And that's an incentive-based top end which means by definition he has to be pitching and pitching well to earn it!

Tim Wakefield must hate negotiating, or hate player agents, or hate baseball players who earn more than $8 million dollars a year or something...
   30. akrasian Posted: November 10, 2009 at 02:04 AM (#3383608)
I think some here are over valuing what Wakefield would fetch on the open market. First, he's an old 43 (will turn 44 during the next season). He's coming off of a back injury. And he's a knuckleballer - teams don't value knuckleballers anywhere near as much as a comparable performing pitcher, otherwise they would make an effort to actually convert more infielders who can't hit to knuckleball pitchers in the minors. If he were a free agent, there would be a good chance he'd end up a NRI - few teams are going to be anxious to guarantee millions to a pitcher of that age coming off of an injury, even if he weren't a knuckleballer.

Instead of facing that, he gets to play for the team he wants, AND is guaranteed $5 million. Add in the promotional revenue he'll make for years if he stays healthy and becomes the all time Red Sox leader in wins, and he's doing well.
   31. Textbook Editor Posted: November 10, 2009 at 02:11 AM (#3383611)
Here's what I don't get about the criticism here: he upped his potential income to $5 million if his back gives out in July and he has to retire. Under his existing contract, it would have been $4 million (and then only if the Sox had picked up the option for 2010). So yes, if you think the Sox were going to pick up the 2010 option AND then the 2011 option at the end of 2010, he cost himself $3 million (or just $1 million, depending on the incentives).

Look, watching Timmy pitch can be as maddening as anything, but even so, I like having him on the team. Long live the knuckleball, indeed!
   32. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 10, 2009 at 02:27 AM (#3383628)
Tim Wakefield is my favorite Red Sox player ever. Nothing would make me happier, save another title, than seeing him pass Cy and Roger.
   33. Darren Posted: November 10, 2009 at 03:13 AM (#3383669)
It is pretty hilarious to see a Yankee fan saying the Red Sox are lowballing one of their own. They've made an art of it with Pettitte in particular. They did it to Bernie, went year-to-year with Jeter when ARod and Nomar were locked up, then tried to bully Clemens into taking a deferred payment from an earlier contract as his salary for given year. But heaven forbid that the team chasing them get a decent deal on someone.

With all that said, it really is amazing to me what Pettitte and Wakefield are willing to accept so that they don't have to haggle or negotiate. Neither was willing to even pretend they'd play anywhere else and ended up taking weak offers from their teams. For the Red Sox to even further reduce this contract is amazing to me, and should be insulting to Wakefield.

AND NO GOOD CAN COME FROM HIM BREAKING THE RED SOX WIN RECORD!!!
   34. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 10, 2009 at 03:16 AM (#3383676)
AND NO GOOD CAN COME FROM HIM BREAKING THE RED SOX WIN RECORD!!!


Is that just your inner hopeless Roger fanboy talking (as opposed to my inner hopeless Timmy fanboy)?
   35. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: November 10, 2009 at 03:55 AM (#3383715)
I love Wakefield and am very happy to see him happy.
   36.  Hey Gurl Posted: November 10, 2009 at 04:12 AM (#3383721)
Didn't his last contract have an infinite amount of options? I'm disappointed that this no longer exists.
   37. RJ in TO Posted: November 10, 2009 at 04:17 AM (#3383725)
Didn't his last contract have an infinite amount of options?


Yes. It was a one-year deal, with a one-year option which, once picked up, added another one-year option which, once picked up, added another one-year option, and so on.
   38. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 10, 2009 at 04:32 AM (#3383732)
With all that said, it really is amazing to me what Pettitte and Wakefield are willing to accept so that they don't have to haggle or negotiate.

Um, Pettitte made $10.5M with incentives. Maybe he could have done a little better, but he didn't get screwed.

The $4M perpetual option was pretty close to an unenforceable contract. What was Wakefield's consideration for giving such an odd option? $4M wasn't over his market value.
   39. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: November 10, 2009 at 04:35 AM (#3383735)
But heaven forbid that the team chasing them get a decent deal on someone.


I understand exaggerating for humor or effect, but I have to point out that "decent" is not within two ZIP codes of what this contract means to the Red Sox. Wakefield is far from the worst starter in the league, yet his contract obligation is a complete joke to the Red Sox.
   40. PJ Martinez Posted: November 10, 2009 at 04:36 AM (#3383737)
I didn't even like Roger when he was on the Red Sox, and I have no feelings about Cy Young. I'll by happy if Wakefield passes them (especially Roger).
   41. cardsfanboy Posted: November 10, 2009 at 04:53 AM (#3383742)
The $4M perpetual option was pretty close to an unenforceable contract. What was Wakefield's consideration for giving such an odd option? $4M wasn't over his market value.

he loved playing for the team, he understood that many teams aren't going to take a chance with a knuckleballer unless it was their guy, he understood that he was an off and on type of player because of his pitch and that teams will eat a contract if he is off, instead of letting him work it out. The perpetual contract was a solid deal for the guy, it may not have been maximizing his potential but it probably kept him in the majors longer because it was so cheap that the Red Sox could take the option and see how it panned out. And I really think staying in the majors is the most important concern for Wakefield, more than making the maximum dollars.
   42. OCD SS Posted: November 10, 2009 at 04:55 AM (#3383745)
Um, Pettitte made $10.5M with incentives. Maybe he could have done a little better, but he didn't get screwed.


With incentives. What was the base? And how much did he make the year before? If you're all for teams showing this kind of loyalty, were you up in arms over the Yankees not just giving Pettitte $16M? As has been detailed, when exactly has your team showed that kind of loyalty recently?
   43. Jeff K. Posted: November 10, 2009 at 05:08 AM (#3383757)
Yeah, I thought there was a club option in perpetuity for $4 million a year.

(EDIT) That'll learn me not to refresh.
   44. tjm1 Posted: November 10, 2009 at 05:11 AM (#3383761)
Wakefield is far from the worst starter in the league, yet his contract obligation is a complete joke to the Red Sox.


He's at an age and health status where performance can deteriorate very rapidly, and they signed him for two years. To say that he gave away the farm is stretching it.

Yes. It was a one-year deal, with a one-year option which, once picked up, added another one-year option which, once picked up, added another one-year option, and so on.


Yes, basically he brought back the reserve clause voluntarily.
   45. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: November 10, 2009 at 05:15 AM (#3383765)
So is Wakefield guaranteed a starting rotation spot as part of the deal? Say Clay makes the jump next year and Dice-K returns. You have beckett, lester, clay, dice-k, and wake. Does this mean the sox are staying away from the starting pitcher market or does wake's and clay's unknown futures make a starting pitching signing likely? Maybe they go the smoltz/penny route again with Harden and Bedard. I could definitely see Harden in Boston next season.
   46. Tuque Posted: November 10, 2009 at 06:07 AM (#3383798)
Okay, so, Primates love Wakefield and Bannister, Primates hate Jeter and Garvey, and Primates can't come to a conclusion on Ichiro. Am I missing anything?
   47. cardsfanboy Posted: November 10, 2009 at 06:11 AM (#3383800)
Okay, so, Primates love Wakefield and Bannister, Primates hate Jeter and Garvey, and Primates can't come to a conclusion on Ichiro. Am I missing anything?

don't really hate Jeter as hate the over love he gets. More like we hate the press that heaps tons more praise on the guy than his hof worthy career deserves.
   48. dangnewt Posted: November 10, 2009 at 06:20 AM (#3383807)
1 - Victor does a nice job of catching Wake so this doesn't help Tek.
2 - I believe that Wake negotiates his own salary
3 - I would love to see Roger taken down a peg
4 - Wake is in the mix for the starting pitcher but he has also pitched long relief, I'd rather they not do a pitching reclamation and instead try to sign a legit #3 or #4 starter to give more depth - I wouldn't want to go into the season needing 30+ starts for each of my top 5 guys - it is just is too much to ask.
   49. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: November 10, 2009 at 06:28 AM (#3383811)
For some reason, I got the impression that as part of the deal Wake was guaranteed a spot. Not sure why I thought that.

Wake is in the mix for the starting pitcher but he has also pitched long relief, I'd rather they not do a pitching reclamation and instead try to sign a legit #3 or #4 starter to give more depth - I wouldn't want to go into the season needing 30+ starts for each of my top 5 guys - it is just is too much to ask.


The pickings are slim it seems. Randy Wolf is the best option if you're targeting a #3. Washburn is scary. I'd think Fenway would be a very bad match. Not sure who else there is. Lackey would be pricey and I sort of think they're saving frontline starting pitching money for Beckett next year.
   50. frannyzoo Posted: November 10, 2009 at 06:31 AM (#3383813)
To expand on Tuque's list:

BTF Love
Wakefield
Bannister
Greinke
Raines
Franklin Gutierrez and other SABR freakazoids of goodness
Lincecum
Rickey
Trammell
Blyleven

BTF Hate
Garvey
Garvey again
Jeter's clutch/press/jump-throw thing/"true Yankee" thing
That French guy who is now going to play RF for the Mets forEVER
Vernon Wells and anybody who's career goes off the high-dive but everybody doesn't know it...yet
M. Bradley
Anybody defined as "scrappy"...Eckstein, Miles, etc.
Anybody who had anything whatsoever to do with the 2009 Mets
Jim Rice

BTF Hatred Turned to Nostalgic Love
Operation Shutdown
Carl Everett
Anybody who "cheated" thus absolving steroid cheaters (e.g., Gaylord Perry)

BTF Guys Who Makes the Jukebox Play
Ichiro!
Edgar Martinez
Jose Canseco
A-Rod
Ozzie Guillen
Mike Piazza
Ms. Jose Lima
   51. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: November 10, 2009 at 06:42 AM (#3383816)
BTF Hate: I'd add Brett Myers

Curt Schiling would go in the category "BTF's Thin Line Between Love and Hate". Personally I hate him and plenty of others do as well, but there are those who love his honesty.

Add Roger Clemens to the jukebox, although less so recently.
   52. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 10, 2009 at 07:48 AM (#3383838)
Pete was the juke box's original Hit King.
   53. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: November 10, 2009 at 08:35 AM (#3383854)
BTF Hate
Garvey
Garvey again
Jeter's clutch/press/jump-throw thing/"true Yankee" thing
That French guy who is now going to play RF for the Mets forEVER
Vernon Wells and anybody who's career goes off the high-dive but everybody doesn't know it...yet
M. Bradley
Anybody defined as "scrappy"...Eckstein, Miles, etc.
Anybody who had anything whatsoever to do with the 2009 Mets
Jim Rice


Tommy Lasorda
Brian Sabean
Ned Coletti
Dusty Baker
Steve Phillips
Jim Bowden
Shea Hillenbrand
Every umpire
Every living sportswriter over 60 years old
   54. Swedish Chef Posted: November 10, 2009 at 08:52 AM (#3383860)
he loved playing for the team,

Did he get a no-trade? Bronson Arroyo didn't get much value out of the discount he gave the Red Sox.
   55. Tripon Posted: November 10, 2009 at 08:55 AM (#3383861)
Wakefield should be a 10-5 candidate, so he gets a full NTC automatically.
   56. Mattbert Posted: November 10, 2009 at 01:00 PM (#3383874)
I really don't see how Wake is getting ripped off here. He's increased his guaranteed money by $1M. Given his age and health, and at this stage of his career, I would think that's more attractive than the chance to make slightly more with the pre-existing perpetual $4M option. As others have pointed out above, seems like pretty decent hedge.

Wake is my favorite player of the last 20 years, and I will be delighted if he sticks around long enough to get the all-time Red Sox wins record.
   57. cardsfanboy Posted: November 10, 2009 at 01:45 PM (#3383880)
does BTF hate Milton Bradley? It seems like a lot of people would love to have him playing for their team, regardless of the attitude.

I would probably add Beane to the mix of love children of BTF. Along with Pos.
   58. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: November 10, 2009 at 01:50 PM (#3383883)
I think you can add Buerhle to the love parade.
   59. Lassus Posted: November 10, 2009 at 02:04 PM (#3383886)
I'd like to state that I loved Operation Shutdown from the word go.
   60. OCD SS Posted: November 10, 2009 at 02:05 PM (#3383887)
Who are BTF's weird fetish players?
   61. Gamingboy Posted: November 10, 2009 at 02:13 PM (#3383896)
The Gamingboy Board:

Love:
Wakefield (and all other Knuckleballers)
Matt Wieters
Joe Mauer
ICHIRO
Rickey
Lincecum
Pete Browning
Cal Ripken
Denard Span
Pujols
Cliff Lee
The 'Stache of Clay Zavada
The Netherlands National Baseball Team
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax's Peak
Chase Utley
Vin Scully
MLB Network

Hate:
Peter Angelos
Milton Bradley
Jesse Orosco
Peter Angelos
Ryan Raburn
Sterling, Waldman and the rest
The Yankee Fan's image of Derek Jeter
Peter Angelos
Steve Trachsel
Bears
Peter Angelos
Phil Cuzzi
Brett Favre
The Yankees/Yomiuri Giants/Cowboys/Manchester United 4-way Alliance of Evil
Steve Phillips
Jim Palmer's Hair
Peter Angelos
Sager's Suits
Peter Angelos
Scott Norwood
Peter Angelos
The YES Network
   62. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: November 10, 2009 at 02:41 PM (#3383906)
Smitty hates pants.
   63. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 10, 2009 at 03:20 PM (#3383930)
don't really hate Jeter as hate the over love he gets.

This is mostly a last line of defense rationalization from those that originally insisted that Jeter wasn't that good, didn't deserve to be an All-Star, wouldn't be a Hall of Famer, wouldn't be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer and wouldn't be one of the all-time greats at SS. Now all they have left is griping about the man's favorable media coverage.
   64. cardsfanboy Posted: November 10, 2009 at 03:30 PM (#3383938)
This is mostly a last line of defense rationalization from those that originally insisted that Jeter wasn't that good, didn't deserve to be an All-Star, wouldn't be a Hall of Famer, wouldn't be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer and wouldn't be one of the all-time greats at SS. Now all they have left is griping about the man's favorable media coverage.

then you missed most of the point, most people on here have always said he was good, borderline/likely hofer(he's in the last two or so seasons has shattered that borderline label) It's always been about the love, at no point in his career has Jeter been a better player than Arod(maybe one season he was more valuable) yet Jetes got the love more than much deserving player. A ton of stuff he gets credit for, which he didn't deserve the credit. Here is a guy who if you look at his numbers and age only, you have to conclude was a roider, yet not even a hint of taint in any coverage(in fact people claim he is clearly one of the clean guys...which makes me shake my head in disgust, Jeter as a clearly clean guy is ridiculous, Eckstein, Griffey maybe, but not Jeter) . Meanwhile you still get people hinting at other players who have less evidence.
   65. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 10, 2009 at 03:41 PM (#3383944)
at no point in his career has Jeter been a better player than Arod

To be fair, the list of players who have been better than ARod at any point in their career is vanishingly small.

You're talking inner, inner circle HoFers: Ruth, Hornsby, Mantle, Wagner, Williams, those type of guys.
   66. cardsfanboy Posted: November 10, 2009 at 03:50 PM (#3383956)
To be fair, the list of players who have been better than ARod at any point in their career is vanishingly small.

You're talking inner, inner circle HoFers: Ruth, Hornsby, Mantle, Wagner, Williams, those type of guys.


true, but to hear the media tell it, Jetes and Arod were equals except Jetes had a special quality that allowed him to bring his team up from the ashes into world series glory, that a greedy arod couldn't. Nevermind that Jetes is making 19 mil a year to arods massive 25... because Jetes is so valuable to the team he is not only underpaid but sacrificed his earning potential to save the Yankee payroll, so they could afford the likes of Tex and the greedy Arod. We all know Arod is greedy because he has never won a championship(prior to this year comments) and he moved to third when the team asked him for some unknown greedy reason.
   67. The Yankee Clapper Posted: November 10, 2009 at 04:04 PM (#3383968)
most people on here have always said he was good, borderline/likely hofer(he's in the last two or so seasons has shattered that borderline label)

CFB may have missed some Jeter threads but there have always been some here who only grudgingly gave Jeter any credit. That was certainly true on Old Primer and was evident just last off-season when the Jeter detractors suggested he could no longer play SS and didn't have the skills/bat to play elsewhere, so his next contract would be an albatross around the Yankees' neck.

Here is a guy who if you look at his numbers and age only, you have to conclude was a roider, yet not even a hint of taint in any coverage(in fact people claim he is clearly one of the clean guys...which makes me shake my head in disgust, Jeter as a clearly clean guy is ridiculous, Eckstein, Griffey maybe, but not Jeter).

This is baseball's new "McCarthyism" - making up PED accusations without a shred of evidence. Also seems to suggest the "hate" is about more than a good press.
   68. happysky Posted: November 10, 2009 at 05:32 PM (#3384048)
Here is a guy who if you look at his numbers and age only, you have to conclude was a roider, yet not even a hint of taint in any coverage(in fact people claim he is clearly one of the clean guys...which makes me shake my head in disgust, Jeter as a clearly clean guy is ridiculous, Eckstein, Griffey maybe, but not Jeter).

What point in his career they have been a evidence or hint that his doing PEDS!!! i mean his homerun number hasn't been crazy also his body structure has been same
I don't get Jeter hate in this board !!! I mean hate the media not Jeter ,he isn't the one who is saying"
Jeter's clutch/press/jump-throw thing/"true Yankee" thing"
Also jeter wasn't asked to move do he didn't moved ...............now i guess that decision turned out well now it seems jeter's defence has improved ..
   69. with Glavinesque control and Madduxian poise Posted: November 10, 2009 at 05:38 PM (#3384051)
Jeter always pissed me off almost purely because A-Rod was so much better than he was, and yet Jeter always got better press, even when Rodriguez moved off short while he was a better defensive shortstop than Jeter. If Rodriguez had been allowed to continue naturally in his career, he would've been the greatest shortstop since Wagner. I like inner-circle greatness, and I am resentful when something gets in its way.

Now, maybe I shouldn't blame Jeter for all this. But I attach all of it to him, so whether he's to blame or not, he's at least the proximate cause.
   70. Dingbat_Charlie Posted: November 10, 2009 at 05:44 PM (#3384055)
how could one possibly hate Jim Palmer's hair? Envy I understand, and share, but hate?
   71. happysky Posted: November 10, 2009 at 06:16 PM (#3384072)
u know what if Alex wanted to Play Shortstop he could have played for other team .....I mean it was his decision to play for Yankees and play Third base .He thought playing for Yankess was more important than playing Shortstop.I mean jeter was never asked to change the position,how all this happened is Jeter fault
   72. karlmagnus Posted: November 10, 2009 at 06:22 PM (#3384077)
Why does a post about brave noble fearless Wakefield turn into an argument between the loathsome mercenary Jeter and the equally loathsome mercenary A-Rod?
   73. Nasty Nate Posted: November 10, 2009 at 06:24 PM (#3384083)
He thought playing for Yankess was more important than playing Shortstop


What did jeter think was more important than playing shortstop?
   74. cardsfanboy Posted: November 10, 2009 at 11:26 PM (#3384360)
What point in his career they have been a evidence or hint that his doing PEDS!!!

same evidence used to convict hundreds of other ball players, the fact that as he has aged, he continues to play better than he did when younger. The fact that anyone pretends to point at any player and think he is a roider for reasons related to homerun count is beyond stupid. As another thread pointed out, what about Maris's big jump? circumstantial evidence shouldn't be used to accuse anyone, and the fact that the writers use the exact same evidence (got better as he aged) to convict a ton of other people, but certain people because of their relationship with the writers gets by with nary a hint of accusation.

It's the writers we hate, I would love to like Jeter as a ball player, but when you get him winning undeserving gold gloves, after another, and you read/hear tons of things attributing super human ability beyond just the numbers and what people can see with their own eyes, to a guy who hasn't really shown any special reason to think that other than the team he played for happened to win a few world series.

We do not hate Jeter, we hate the love he gets, the fact that he overshadows better players, get better press, get passes on behavior that others get reamed for, the fact that he gets the Eckstein treatment, when it's his abundant talent and his propensity to show off(and yes the hop throw is clearly a Mays wearing hat too small type of showing off) but still manages to fool the writers into thinking he is this humble, down to earth, salt of the eart, blue collar type of player.
   75. The Lovesong of J. Alfredo Griffin Posted: November 11, 2009 at 05:34 PM (#3384929)
happysky is very strange. And in need copyediting.

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