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Well, one thing the commissioner's office is known for is swift investigations into the improper use of substances.
Did these guys watch the Prohibition series and get inspired?
Yes, because not allowing employees to drink at work is some kind of bizarre fringe position, rather than how nearly every workplace in America functions...
FWIW: white collar, financial services, something like 25,000 to 30,000 employees.
Fence securely straddled, I'm going to have a bagel.
With a rum & Coke, no doubt.
He was out of Coke, so he used whiskey instead.
I find this policy incredible. Fifteen years in professional services and sales has led me to conclude that nothing ever gets done without a bottle of wine or sixteen rounds of beer or scotch at the hotel bar.
I'll bet you your company has something similar in the employee manual. We have such a policy but that doesn't mean we don't drink when we're out to dinner for some sort of work event. It's a pretty standard CYA thing for companies to do.
just wanted to get that in before the cardinal jokes start.
its in ours for sure, and probably posted on the break room wall. at the last paper i worked for, they also reserved the right to test employees for drugs if they have an injury while on the job.
There, was that so hard?
You're no fun.
Have a drink & loosen up!
Whiskey and rum? Mmmm, sacrilicious.
Agreed. They should move the open bar into the dugout. Have a clubhouse attendant ready with shots for pitchers who get hit hard. Have like, two keggers stood up for Derek Lowe starts. Expand rosters to 26 players but require that the 26th player never be allowed to play unless he is completely shitfaced.
The Designated Hitter for the game also should be the Designated Driver for the evening. NL players have to take a cab. I'm not sure which of those options players would like less. Maybe that would finally give some momentum to expanding or eliminating the DH.
All major cities have ample transportation options, including luxurious towncar services.
All major league baseball players are wealthy, therefore should never need to drive when they can't.
EDIT: Coke to dfan.
ALSO EDIT: Also, what #9 said. Also.
Unless the product you're selling is alcohol.
Are you suggesting that my "buy this or I'll make you watch while I kill everything you love" pitch isn't optimal?
I hear this a lot when a wealthy person gets busted for drunk driving. The reason wealthy people don't call cabs has nothing at all to do with $$ or ability to pay for one. The reason they don't call cabs is the same reason America is increasingly fatter, convenience. Convenience dominates just about every decision we make in this country.
Calling a cab, waiting around anywhere from 5-30 min, just is not convenient. Cabs could be free and this would still be the case.
And because the law does not apply equally to rich people. It's not like they're going to lose anything of value if they drive drunk. The law is only applied to those who can't buy their way out of it.
Especially considering you have to get back to the bar the next day. In some cases with a ticket or a tow involved.
Of course, the responsible thing to do would be to plan for this and not drive to the bar, but this is apparently beyond most people.
If you can back it up, it is the best pitch ever.
The thing is, you only have to follow through on it once. After that, your reputation, as Mr. Niska might say, it is *solid.*
Only if it's fermented into alcohol, Costanza-style.
If you thought ballplayers swung for the fences in extra inning games before, just wait until cracking open a cold one hinges on whether or not the game has concluded.
This.
And as for the "example" thing... yeah, we wouldn't want to teach kids that when you grow up, it's ok to have a beer while sitting around watching a baseball game (which is all a starting pitcher is going to be doing on their off days). I mean, seriously, I enjoy watching the Red Sox implode more than anybody, but has anyone actually suggested that a) any player was actually intoxicated or b) anyone was having beer in the clubhouse during a game in which they actually played? If not, then seriously, who cares? A 200+ pound baseball player having a beer or two during a game they're not playing in? How does this provide a bad example of anything?
Calling a cab, waiting around anywhere from 5-30 min, just is not convenient. Cabs could be free and this would still be the case.
Do you actually live in a city? Cabs are near ubiquitous in most major cities of America.
Sitting back like a lazy ####### whole you drink at work is unprofessional. Particularly when your co-workers are running around crazed trying to finish a big project.
I've seen the example before but I don't think it applies. It isn't like your co-workers are throwing a party in the cubicle next to you and getting lapdances and doing blow off their tits. Lackey and others had a beer and ate some food in the clubhouse. That is it. Are you telling me that everybody in your office fasts until their co-workers finish a big project? Nobody goes out to lunch or orders in during these big important moments? And if your work environment had a an existing culture of drinking are you saying nobody would drink? I work in a work environment where drinking is part of the culture and I can tell you with absolute certainty that somebody drinking a drink or two over several hours is not something anyone cares about. Sure if they get shvt-faced and they are needed it is a problem and yeah I guess if you are off to side getting bombed because your stuff is done people will probably get pissed but they'll get pissed because they believe you could help them and you are simply being a dick by not helping. Lackey can't help you in a ballgame that he isn't starting and he isn't getting drunk (as far as I know) so I don't really see it as a problem.
I'm firmly on the Call A Cab side of this, but I think you're overstating this a bit. In metropolises (metropoles?), of course; New York, LA, Chicago, Washington, etc. But does it hold true for Denver? For Tampa? For St. Louis? For Cincinnati?
I'm not really that sure. Most of my taxi-riding experiences have been in said giant cities (primarily Chicago, but some in LA) or in smaller towns where the taxi supply requires a call. I have a little experience in Cincinnati, where it was indeed more difficult to get a cab (you'd have to call, or just get really lucky and come across one).
EDIT: That's not to say it's not worth waiting for a cab when you're in inconvenient places; just saying that it's still an inconvenience.
But people are not always in the equivalent of mid-town Manhattan when drinking. Getting a cab from lots of neighborhood spots, close suburbs, or private houses requires something of a wait, usually.
They could be charting pitches, or scouting opposing players whom they might face later in the year (if not later in the current series), or even just watching the damn game and cheering for their teammates. Acting like they give a ####.
Then why did Boston collapse down the stretch? Why did Terry get the bum's rush out the door amid reports of clubhouse problems?
We don't have an "existing culture of drinking" at work during business hours, because we're professionals, not a bunch of 19-year-old frat boys. If you want to drink, wait until you clock out, go home or go to a bar, and then drink. This isn't rocket science.
And baseball does so routinely bringing up your office world is pointless to the conversation. Again, in your world does everybody fast until their coworkers are done with their project? If a group has a project that keeps them late does everybody in the company have to stay late? Does anyone in the company tell a joke while some people somewhere in the company are working on a project?
But the conversation was about how ballplayers work in major cities and play in major cities.
Why did they start the season so terribly? Why did they win so much during the middle of the season? A combination of random distribution and yes, they choked... I highly doubt that occasionally having a beer or two in the clubhouse had anything to do with it.
As for why Terry got the bum's rush... because they lost. The clubhouse problem stuff is all after the fact. If they'd won one more game we'd never have heard a thing about it.
That's what they have scouts and pitching coaches for. As for acting like they care... again, so what? They're being paid to go out and pitch every fifth day. If they don't do that well, get on them for that. Who gives a rat's posterior what they do with the rest of their time. And if one of the other players can't play as well because one of their teammates had a beer in the clubhouse during a game, well then they need to focus better.
Why is this even an issue other than a lunatic Boston media looking for people to lynch because the team collapsed?
If Babe Ruth could grab a beer from a vendor in the middle of a game, and Paul Waner could run the bases with a flask in his hip pocket and make the hall of fame, why do we care now about some pitcher having a beer on a day he isn't playing?
But its also relevant where the ballplayers drink, and even in major cities there are lots of places where you have to wait 5-20 minutes for a cab.
That's a stupid comparison. Per state labor laws, my employer is required to give all of its employees a lunch break, whether they decide to eat during it or skip a meal and do something else. Where's the law requiring employers to let their employees drink? And who ever got pulled over by the cops for Driving While Full?
You can't know that we wouldn't have heard about it, but even if we assume that your postulate is true, the fact that we wouldn't have heard about it doesn't necessarily imply that it wasn't a problem. By that standard, steroid use wasn't a problem in the '80s and '90s, right? We certainly didn't hear about it back then.
That's the kind of attitude that makes men into champions! "Why should I bother to put in some extra work? We have a pitching coach for that ####! Pass the drumsticks."
The team and the league, apparently. I.e. the people who actually pay the players, rather than you, a random kibitzer on the internet.
Which is easier and more likely to accomplish the stated objective: Delving into the psychology of the distracted player, or just removing the ####### distraction (which serves no real purpose in a baseball clubhouse)?
Because there's a lot more money at stake these days, and due to changing social attitudes about drinking, stories that make players look like careless alcoholics are more damaging these days. There was a time when it was no big deal for Cap Anson to say that he wouldn't play against niggers, either, but times have changed.
dfan implied that banning alcohol from a workplace is a goofy idea, and Vlad responded that it's not uncommon. If you want to say Vlad's arguments are pointless, fine. But the mere fact that he brought up a counterexample from his non-baseball experience is not pointless.
Won't somebody think of the chicken!
Well yes. But mostly because they had a starting rotation which prominently featured Lackey, Wakefield, Miller and Weiland.
Your argument is that it is bad form to not be dedicated to your task (and really not even to your task since LAckey had no task. So really your arguing that it is bad form not to sit at your desk and stare at the wall) while your coworkers are working. I'm asking are you dedicated to your task at all times until your coworkers are finished with their tasks? Do you not leave until accounting is finished with their assignment? Or shipping? Or whatever? Nobody is geared this way. Right now you might very well be at work and I'm guessing some group of people in your place of work have a task to do and you are not focusing on your work right now becuase you are on BTF reading about how California would invade Nevada in an all-state war.
There is very little difference between that and sitting in the clubhouse drinking a beer.
If you want to say Vlad's arguments are pointless, fine. But the mere fact that he brought up a counterexample from his non-baseball experience is not pointless
It is pointless because we've already established that Vlad's workplace is nothing like Lackey's workplace. Julius Pepper's workplace requires him to violently hit people. If he gets flagged for unnecessary roughness for a hard hit to a QB it is pointless to then say that in my workplace I would get fired for doing something like that.
Again, you are making an inappropriate comparison. I am required to be here from 8:30 until 5:15 every day. During the time when I am here, if I am not working, I need to at least look like I'm working, or there will be a problem. I don't have to take it upon myself to do other people's jobs, or go above-and-beyond and stay until the last other employee leaves and turns out the lights... but if at 2:30 I kick off my shoes, lie down on the couch in the lobby, and take a nap, people are going to resent it. Even if I don't have anything particularly pressing that I need to get done that day.
I don't get why this is so hard for you to understand.
Josh Beckett isn't a sommelier, and John Lackey doesn't own a beer distributorship. There's no work-related reason for them to be drinking at work, unlike Peppers, whose job description calls for him to run up and tackle people.
Even more apposite would be attaching his name to a rule banning obscene overpayment for ugly, useless pieces of crap. That's probably not gonna happen, though.
How little you know ...
Because there is a ton of grey area between working feverishly at your desk and sleeping on the couch. I'm sure you head into the break room occasionally or hang out by the water cooler or shoot the shvt with your office buddies during the day as well. It isn't pretend typing 10 hours a day every day. People know and understand that there is going to be downtime and yeah at times if you are using your downtime while other people are running around putting out fires people will resent it. But that isn't what LAckey was doing. Lackey et al could not help. Francona wasn't going to ask them to pinch hit or relieve but they were unable to because they were drunk. That is part where we are disconnecting. Lackey was a bystander or a fan at that point and he simply grabbed a beer and ate some chicken. Within the culture that he operated in that was completely normal and routine.
Um...care to elaborate?
I'm not saying it's an industry best practice, and for all I know there's an employee handbook somewhere that prohibits it. But I would caution against generalizing as to what's "professional" in someone else's workplace based on your own limited experience. Unless you've worked in an MLB clubhouse, you don't have enough information to make those statements.
We're not even allowed to have alcohol on the premises. In fact, when someone retires or leaves for another job and we take them out for lunch, I rarely even see anyone have a beer with lunch.
After work hours, that's different...
Besides, professional sports is different. You have to show up ready to play. It's not a 9-5 job, it's a 7:00-10:00 job. I don't think it's too much to ask to refrain from drinking for 3 hrs a day. Where I would draw the line is banning alcohol once the game is over. Plenty of drinking goes on at the ballpark and once the game is over, the players should be allowed to relax with a drink or two if they wish.
I can't speak for most of the places you listed, but it is pretty easy to find a cab in downtown Cincinnati. If you are near the stadium and the surrounding Riverfront area (littered with bars and restaurants), it takes a few minutes to find a cab after dark. At least, that's my experience.
Sure, you have to show up ready to play. But once you know you're not going to play, if you're on the 2011 Red Sox (and apparently some other teams), you can have a beer. And unless you have a dramatic late-season collapse to miss the playoffs, nobody will ever think this is something worth mentioning or criticizing.
Of course "it's not too much to ask" that the players not drink during the games. If our CEO asked us to stop having a beer on Friday afternoons because he thought it would foster a more professional environment, we'd grumble about it for a few days but nobody would quit and life would go on.
On the other hand, if our CEO called us "lazy" and "unprofessional" and blamed the occasional Friday beer as the reason why we weren't the #1 group in our market, or if someone in the press made the same comments, we'd take issue with it.
Also, as an aside, I'm sure the players are required to arrive at the park several hours before the game, even on days they're not pitching.
Not during the game. If you aren't pitching, you should be in the dugout, supporting your teammates, observing the competition, trying to pick up on things you might find useful when it is your turn to pitch. That's what is expected of highly paid professionals.
This. To put a finer point on it, those things mentioned are what DEFINES a professional.
Eh, I'm co-owner of my company and we do allow alcohol to be consumed on the premises but we're pretty overt in letting everyone know that getting sloshed isn't acceptable. Nobody here is a big drinker, the alcohol policy mainly results in a beer with lunch or a shot of whiskey in the morning coffee, the only time I had to deal with an employee drinking too much was a technician who would show up in the morning already reeking of booze. We're all adults, I have to trust the staff with expensive and important projects, trusting them to know when they've had enough to drink just seems like a logical extension of my expectations for their professionalism.
And the highly paid professionals have either highly paid professionals that can pick up on things or extremely devoted lackies that will pick up on things. If you need a cheerleading section to motivate you then you aren't really a professional. The team doesn't gain anything by having Lackey clap in the dugout.
They are on-duty personnel. Eligible to play in the game, and highly paid at that. They can hold off on their beer for 3 frickin' hours, 4 if they play the Yankees.
Not as much, but they'd care, because he's fat and sucks.
If he wasn't fat and didn't suck, or if he was fat but didn't suck, then they wouldn't care.
Why does it matter how much they are paid? Does that mean a rookie can drink but not someone with a large contract? Can a worker at Taco Bell drink? They certainly aren't highly paid. I would bet that drinking on the job is MORE acceptable for 'highly paid professionals' as they typically have a lot more freedom in their work than a low paid worker (amateur?).
This is laughable. Do you honestly think ball players show up to the stadium at 7:00 ready to go?
Do you realize with the technology available pitchers can watch literally every pitch thrown to a certain hitter in an hour or so? They can break it down to every count instance, every slider thrown to the batter, anything you want can be seen on a computer. This is where they gain the vast majority of their information, not sitting on the bench with a shitty site line to the plate, feverishly watching each and every pitch.
Because no pitcher has ever noticed something the opposing pitcher is doing that could help his hitter in that game.
On the other hand, I'm aware of somebody at the same place of work getting a reprimand for abusing alcohol. Things like coming back from lunch smelling of booze and drinking heavily at a conference (again coming back from lunch after obviously overdoing it)
That's right, those pitchers better stare intently out at the action, because #### hitting coaches, they clearly don't know what the hell they are doing. I bet lots of hitters go to pitchers for batting advice.
What defines a professional, is that he gets paid. Nothing more, nothing less.
A lot of people in MLB disagree with that, based on their public utterances.
When someone is pitching as poorly as Lackey did, he's supposed to act like it bothers him and make every effort to improve. There seems to a legitimate question as to whether Lackey's between games regimen met this standard.
That's right, those pitchers better stare intently out at the action, because #### hitting coaches, they clearly don't know what the hell they are doing. I bet lots of hitters go to pitchers for batting advice.
Do you really think having 5 guys, who are experts in the field, rather than just one, observing, doesn't increase your chance of noticing something?
Another pitcher probably has more insight into what a pitcher is thinking/doing than the hitting coach, who wasn't a pitcher.
It's like offering to proofread someone's document, or make the copies, when they're crunching on a deadline. It's quite minor, but generally a greatly appreciated gesture.
Alcohol during downtimes is a staple of American workplaces. Still, I can't imagine why a pro ballplayer would hang out in a clubhouse with Bud Light and Popeye's when he has a free ticket to watch Major League Freaking Baseball from a great seat, with instant access to managers and coaches and participants. How dead to life do you have to be not to want to sit in your own team's freaking dugout during a game? Even if baseball isn't your favorite sport, it is your job and you might conceivably learn something useful by watching it. Are ballplayers so jaded that they think they know everything there is to know about tactics and rules and opponents? I think they're even stupider than we think they are sometimes if they think that.
OTOH, I too love to watch baseball and learn about it, and I also like to drink beer while doing so :)
Thanks for the input. My only experiences have been in Mount Adams and across the river in Newport.
MLB may be a little different, but maybe not so different that one can ignore the studies in this area.
I don't get that implied sentiment at all. Let's say they've seen absolutely everything up to this point. Well, they still haven't seen Jesus Montero at the plate. Might it be fruitful for Lackey to watch Montero beat up on Jon Lester, so that Montero would have less chance of beating up on Lackey a couple of days later?
I can fully and completely understand that veterans get tired of their own line of work. That also often makes them less good at that line of work. That's all.
Edit: I will stress that I know nothing about Lackey's or Beckett's or Lester's actual work habits, which may in fact be exemplary despite their current image. I'm really just responding to a sense that pro athletes should be exempt from paying attention to their profession. Maybe it's no moral failing to stop paying attention, but at the very least it's not doing them any good at all in their jobs.
I'm not saying they should be exempt I arguing against the view that ballplayers need to be perfect at all times. Nobody on this planet pays attention to their profession at all times. To then crucify some stranger one really doesn't know or know the full story for simply having the same human failing we all have seems wrong to me.
Except it wasn't what Terry Francona expected of the professionals that he supervised. And apparently he's not the only manager who has tolerated this kind of behavior. You can define what *you* expect of MLB players, just don't pretend it is a universal truth.
Yes, they probably have seen Montero at the plate. They have access to every single one of his MLB at bats and a good chunk of his Minor league at bats.
As with McCoy I am not arguing that players on the bench shouldn't pay any attention but missing a few innings over the course of a season is not going to negatively affect them. Especially since Lester said they would be watching the game in the clubhouse, which I guarantee allows them to see pitches better.
Really? It wouldn't get old to you ever? You would never have the desire to take an inning or two off?
Res ipsa loquitur at least for Lackey. And see Coorey, Phil, BBTF Game Chatters, September 2011.
Maybe it's up for debate, but I thought Red Sox Nation had a firm position on the Pitchers of Beer.
Fixed.
I took an evening class a decade back, and the prof taught it with a beer in one hand and a cigarette in the other. We had a kegger in one of the student lounges starting every Friday at 3pm. Studios were basically weekend-long parties. Good times.
i would also absolutely LUUUUVVVV to be in the dugout to watch games and listen to the rest of the guys
then again i haven't been doing that for a living the past 15+ years
some ballplayers just can't get enough baseball and in the winter they stare out the window and wait for spring and others are jeff king/jeff kent who don't LIKE baseball but played it for a living - and kent for the opportunity to stick knives into young players backs whenever possible
other thing is that we don't know what is happening in backett/lackey's personal life - it just might could be that they are having a bad time and maybe they stay away because they think it will be better for the rest of the group if they aren't in the dugout
if the red sox had won the WS this year woudn't nobody know/care
interesting that NONE of this shtt is goin down in atlanta where the braves blew a lead as big in bout the same amount of time
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