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Friday, August 24, 2012

MLB: Trout for MVP? It might depend on Angels’ record

MLB.com’s Tracy Ringolsby, winner of the J.G. Taylor Spink Award, stressed the impact that the success of the Angels as a whole might have on Trout’s chances of winning the AL MVP Award.

“The Angels will have something to say about his candidacy,” Ringolsby said. “I see ‘valuable’ as a key part of that award. The Angels are battling to stay above .500. They are much closer to last place in the AL West than first place.”

Phil Rogers of the Chicago Tribune thinks Trout’s MVP candidacy could get a boost just from the attention the subject is getting, but also strongly agreed with the premise that Trout’s hopes could be undermined if the Angels don’t finish strong.

“If anything, being a rookie could help him,” Rogers pointed out. “It’s extra buzz, like what was created behind Justin Verlander with the Cy Young/MVP double last year, when even [Tigers manager] Jim Leyland wasn’t sure a pitcher should get the [MVP] award.

“The thing I think could hurt Trout is the Angels fading. I don’t have an MVP vote this year, but if I did I’d have a hard time giving it to someone from a team that exits at the end of the regular season. The Tigers may similarly impact Miguel Cabrera’s bid, which could put guys like Josh Hamilton, Derek Jeter and maybe even an A.J. Pierzynski or Alex Rios in the mix. [It] should be a very interesting vote.”

 

 

Repoz Posted: August 24, 2012 at 11:43 AM | 60 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: angels, awards

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   1. valuearbitrageur Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:22 PM (#4216750)
9 WAR isnt "valuable" unless your team-mates play well too.
   2. Danny Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:22 PM (#4216751)
I think it's hilarious that Phil Rogers is pushing Jeter for MVP.
The beauty of Jeter is what he gives you just by showing up. He and Curtis Granderson carry DNA that makes everyone around them better, and that has been a key to the Yankees thriving despite a run of adversity that began before they left spring training.
   3. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:25 PM (#4216756)
He and Curtis Granderson carry DNA that makes everyone around them better

I don't want to know how this DNA gets passed to their teammates.
   4. Tippecanoe Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:28 PM (#4216758)
Really torn between Pierzynski and Trout myself. Just can't decide who I'd rather have.
   5. cardsfanboy Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:36 PM (#4216766)
Isn't Trout more or less head and shoulders above any competition to the point that it really doesn't matter what his teams record is? I understand if you are comparing somewhat comparable players/performance (Derrek Lee vs Albert Pujols) but there is nobody in the AL on par with Trout this year...Is there? The only knock on Trout is that he played in 20 fewer games than the other starters, which is a big deal, but the gap between him and the next best guy is tremendous.

I think it's hilarious that Phil Rogers is pushing Jeter for MVP.

The beauty of Jeter is what he gives you just by showing up. He and Curtis Granderson carry DNA that makes everyone around them better, and that has been a key to the Yankees thriving despite a run of adversity that began before they left spring training.


With that type of science logic, Phil Rogers must be campaigning for a seat as a science advisor for Romney.

Why Jeter over Cano?
   6. cardsfanboy Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:39 PM (#4216771)
Really torn between Pierzynski and Trout myself. Just can't decide who I'd rather have.


I was thinking this was some type of joke that I'm missing, but Pierzynski is having a pretty good year(nearly Yadier good, without the defense of course) still not remotely on par with Trout's year but still a good year.
   7. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:39 PM (#4216772)
Why Jeter over Cano?


Cano's only better because Jeter made him so silly.
   8. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4216775)

The beauty of Jeter is what he gives you just by showing up. He and Curtis Granderson carry DNA that makes everyone around them better, and that has been a key to the Yankees thriving despite a run of adversity that began before they left spring training.


Shouldn't he win it every year then? Or does his leadership only work in certain seasons?
   9. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:43 PM (#4216776)

I don't want to know how this DNA gets passed to their teammates.

I hope they at least get gift baskets.
   10. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:44 PM (#4216782)
Anyway, I'm all for narrative in the MVP voting, up to a certain point. I had no problem with Jimmy Rollins in 2007. Yeah, he wasn't the best player in the league, nor the best on his team either. But he was close enough. 6th in the league in WAR, 2.5 behind the leader. But this is ridiculous.

Trout - 8.9 WAR, 1st place
Hamilton - 3.5, 14th place
Rios - 3.2, 16th place
A.J.- 2.3, 39th place
Jeter - 1.9, 54th place

That's WAR among batters only. Factor in pitchers and everyone but Trout drops. Jeter drops to 76th
   11. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4216791)
####. You know, this morning while looking at the boxscore from last night, I was thinking, "what a POS that Trout is - all unable to get anybody out at the end of the game. If he was a true MVP - like that catcher in Chicago - he'd hoist that whole bullpen and shitty underperforming rotation on his broad shoulders and carry them - unabated - to the postseason."

I can't stand baseball writers.

Trout has been - AMAZING. I watched him a lot last year (I had cable then and don't this year and I live in the blackout area so MLB.TV is of little help) and I was excited to see him develop in 2012. But, I didn't think he'd be an impact bat this year; I thought he could rack up 4-5 WAR - if he played - with about half coming from defense and half from hitting/baserunning.

I was wrong. Big time. He has been absolutely unreal, and no other player except Miggy has ANY seat at the MVP table this year. They just don't. And Cabrera is cowering at the kids table while the actual kid is sitting at the head of the table carving the turkey.



   12. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4216792)
Isn't Trout more or less head and shoulders above any competition to the point that it really doesn't matter what his teams record is? I understand if you are comparing somewhat comparable players/performance (Derrek Lee vs Albert Pujols) but there is nobody in the AL on par with Trout this year...Is there?


Trout's WAR advantage over Cabrera is pretty similar to the edge A-Rod had on Tejada in 2002 when Miggy won it. I agree with you but it would hardly be shocking to see the voters ignore it. My feeling is that seeing a guy like Reddick or Pierzynski win it with a big finish to the season would be a bit more "logical". At least then you can give the "they carried their team from the depths..." stuff whereas the vote for Cabrera is a more straightforward "best player" type vote.

But as of today Trout deserves if the Angels were 35-90. He's lapping the field in my opinion.
   13. Tippecanoe Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4216795)
I was thinking this was some type of joke that I'm missing, but Pierzynski is having a pretty good year


He's having a very good year, and he's been a good solid major league catcher for years. But seeing "MVP" and "Pirzynski" in the same sentence was jarring.
   14. McCoy Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4216796)
If the 2005 Cubs win 100 games and the Cardinals win 79 does Derrek Lee win the MVP?
   15. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4216798)
The beauty of Jeter is what he gives you just by showing up.

A gift basket?
   16. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4216800)

9 WAR isnt "valuable" unless your team-mates play well too.

It's really hard to argue for anyone else...Trout has been the best hitter in the league *and* the best baserunner *and* the best centerfielder (I assume he's going to win the Gold Glove, right?). Then again, you don't have to look too far to find precedent of a player like that *not* winning the award--Matt Kemp last year, for example, even though his baserunning and defense are not as good as Trout's.
   17. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:55 PM (#4216803)
all the other alleged candidates have flaws in their game. in 2012 mike trout is the epitome of a ballplayer. hits better than anyone, steals bases better than anyone, plays defense like a whirling dervish.

in what world is that not an mvp??

   18. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:58 PM (#4216806)
Any voter who votes for Derek Jeter over Mike Trout for MVP should be ordered to spend the rest of their waking days as Suzyn Waldman's sex slave.
   19. McCoy Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:00 PM (#4216808)
plays defense like a whirling dervish.

One of my favorite cards in M:TG.
   20. AROM Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4216814)
As an Angel fan, I would not be bothered in the least if Mike Trout did not win the award. He has been so much better than everyone else that it really isn't fair to compare other players. He can have the Mike Trout award, and the MVP simply becomes a lessor award. A consolation prize. The award for best player who is not Mike Trout.
   21. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:11 PM (#4216827)
A gift basket?

I don't think you get that just for showing up.
   22. Bob Evans Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4216831)
I recall this discussion. Matt Kemp finished second.
   23. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4216836)
A gift basket?

I don't think you get that just for showing up.


For just laying there???
   24. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4216837)
But Kemp/Braun isn't really comparable. Kemp wasn't *that* much better.
   25. cardsfanboy Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4216845)
If the 2005 Cubs win 100 games and the Cardinals win 79 does Derrek Lee win the MVP?


Absolutely. Without Cardinal blinders, I supported Lee over Pujols, he had a slightly better year, but it was close enough that the standings figured into it.

It's really hard to argue for anyone else...Trout has been the best hitter in the league *and* the best baserunner *and* the best centerfielder (I assume he's going to win the Gold Glove, right?). Then again, you don't have to look too far to find precedent of a player like that *not* winning the award--Matt Kemp last year, for example, even though his baserunning and defense are not as good as Trout's.


You do know that Braun was pretty comparable offensively, including baserunning to Kemp last year, that it was superficially the same player. War even rates them the same 7.7 vs 7.8. The Dodgers missed the playoffs, the Brewers didn't. It was close, in that situation the room for error is going to side with the player on the playoff team.
   26. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:33 PM (#4216860)
Why Jeter over Cano?

If I had to guess, it is because Cano has been in a huge slump during the Yanks recent poor play while Jeter has been killing the ball. Which is of course, a horrible reason.

If the MVP goes to someone other than Trout, which is insane, it pretty much has to go to Cano, Cabrera, or Verlander. No one else in the league is close per fWar except Felix, who is on a shitty team. bWar has a bunch of pitchers not too far behind, but none of them are going to have the storyline to push them to the front of the MVP ballot.

That is why Trout has to win, no one else is having a great year. Cano was, but this slump has put on track for merely a very good one. If he turns it on, he could finish with a justifiable MVP caliber season but there is no earthly way he gets all that close to Trout, who is giving A-Rod's rookie season a push.

Cabrera has been pretty darn good and he's in a pennant race, so maybe some big hits give him the storyline, but he's going to finish 2-3 WAR behind Trout too.
   27. Graham & the 15-win "ARod Vortex of suck" Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4216862)
Does Trout deserve all of these awards?

AL ROY
AL MVP
Gold Glove
Silver Slugger
AL Hank Aaron Award

I would give him all five. Are there other awards that I'm forgetting?
   28. SoSH U at work Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4216864)
I think the vote will be closer than it should be (since Trout should be unanimous), but it won't be close. Trout will win easily.

   29. Rants Mulliniks Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4216865)
Trout is the only reason I've bothered trying access ESPN over my shitty, cold molasses slow home internet connection on the weekends, because I can't wait until Monday morning to see how many hits, runs, steals, homers, and walks he accumulated on Friday and Saturday. He the first player who's ever compelled me to do that.
   30. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:40 PM (#4216868)

You do know that Braun was pretty comparable offensively, including baserunning to Kemp last year, that it was superficially the same player. War even rates them the same 7.7 vs 7.8.

I do know that, but WAR also says that they had about the same fielding value (Kemp being a bad CF and Braun being a good LF). The voters, on the other hand, gave Kemp a Gold Glove in CF and didn't give one to Braun. If you thought Kemp truly was the best defensive CF in the league last year, there's no excuse for not giving him the MVP.
   31. PreservedFish Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:43 PM (#4216871)
Trout leads the league in SB and SLG. Give him the ####### award. It should be unanimous.
   32. PreservedFish Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4216875)
Also, Trout wasn't on the team in April when it went 6-14. Since then they're 13 games over .500. Surely he cannot be held responsible for the losses that happened when he wasn't on the team? I guess logic isn't really the strong suit of narrative based MVP voters, but, come on.
   33. cardsfanboy Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:53 PM (#4216882)
I do know that, but WAR also says that they had about the same fielding value (Kemp being a bad CF and Braun being a good LF). The voters, on the other hand, gave Kemp a Gold Glove in CF and didn't give one to Braun. If you thought Kemp truly was the best defensive CF in the league last year, there's no excuse for not giving him the MVP.


Different voting pool, along with a different methodology for the votes. I think that quoting gold gloves doesn't really show the contemporary opinion. It can create a contemporary opinion, but all a player has to do to win a gold glove was to be voted on 3 or so ballots, while everyone else is getting one votes. Until the vote totals are published, I find it hard to believe that gold gloves represent contemporary viewpoint.

Trout leads the league in SB and SLG. Give him the ####### award. It should be unanimous.

There is still a month of the season left, see where he is at at that point in time. If the vote was right now, it should be unanimous, and I suspect he will do very well (getting a handful of second/third place votes from the Detroit writers, Yankee writers and maybe the Rangers.

The last month of the season counts, and I would argue that in many voter minds, it counts double.

   34. GEB4000 Posted: August 24, 2012 at 02:01 PM (#4216891)
"Really torn between Pierzynski and Trout myself. Just can't decide who I'd rather have."

I'll take the guy who is least likely to kick me in balls when I show concern for his well being.
   35. AROM Posted: August 24, 2012 at 02:20 PM (#4216921)
I would give him all five. Are there other awards that I'm forgetting?


Slam Dunk Contest
Nobel Peace Prize
Oscar
Grammy
Gold medal for every high jumping, fast running, and swimming event. I've never actually seen him swim, but come on, he's a Trout.
   36. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4216932)
Different voting pool, along with a different methodology for the votes. I think that quoting gold gloves doesn't really show the contemporary opinion. It can create a contemporary opinion, but all a player has to do to win a gold glove was to be voted on 3 or so ballots, while everyone else is getting one votes. Until the vote totals are published, I find it hard to believe that gold gloves represent contemporary viewpoint.

Fair enough. I still think it's possible Trout doesn't win it, although I will be shocked if that happens, as there seems to be a lack of anyone else with a clear narrative.
   37. GregD Posted: August 24, 2012 at 03:03 PM (#4216954)
I would give him all five. Are there other awards that I'm forgetting?
The Lanterne Rouge?
   38. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 24, 2012 at 03:29 PM (#4216970)
Slam Dunk Contest
Nobel Peace Prize
Oscar
Grammy

Gold medal for every high jumping, fast running, and swimming event. I've never actually seen him swim, but come on, he's a Trout.


So, no EGOT?
   39. Tippecanoe Posted: August 24, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4216978)
And the Lady Byng Trophy.

Long ago, around 1984, I got tickets to a hockey game specifically to see Gretzky, hoping to witness a transcendent performance, perfectly willing to root against my team. He scored 5 goals, the last one on a spin-a-rama; there were 18,000 dropped jaws for most of the night. I feel like this is where I'm headed with Trout.
   40. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 24, 2012 at 03:37 PM (#4216980)
So, no EGOT?

If Trout appears in a scene on "Mad Men", I'm sure they'll give him an Emmy.
Tony Award? That's tough. Maybe a revival of "Damn Yankees"?
   41. BDC Posted: August 24, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4217052)
If Trout appears in a scene on "Mad Men"

Unfortunately he doesn't look much like late-1960s ballplayers. If you pasted some serious eyebrows on him, he'd resemble Roger Freed, but I can't see how Roger Freed would be written into an episode of Mad Men.
   42. franoscar Posted: August 24, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4217056)
There is still time left in the season. I'm biased, but I could see Mi. Cabrera finishing strong, lifting the Tigers into the division title, and getting a lot of MVP support. I know what you all say about his defense, but there's a narrative (goes back to 3rd to make room for Prince), Dan Dickerson & Jim Price keep telling me he's playing fine defense, and the Tigers have really been lacking this year in many things that are not Cabrera. Add in a triple crown chase.... But, I <3 Cabrera.
   43. Tippecanoe Posted: August 24, 2012 at 05:07 PM (#4217070)
If Trout doesn't win it, I'm in for Cabrera.
   44. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 24, 2012 at 05:29 PM (#4217075)
If Trout doesn't win it, I'm in for Cabrera.

If Trout doesn't win and Cano doesn't (assuming he doesn't crater), I will litter this board with whining and complaining the likes of which we haven't seen since the last Red Sox or Mets thread.

Normally I would be fine with Miggy, but Cano is a homegrown Yank who is just as deserving.
   45. Ned Garvin: Male Prostitute Posted: August 24, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4217201)
This question has probably been asked and answered numerous times, and I feel dumb for not having the obvious answer, but is Trout having the best rookie season of all time? What is the best rookie season of all time? It seems like the answer to the first question should be an easy yes, but I don't feel confident without the answer to the second question.
   46. AROM Posted: August 24, 2012 at 07:39 PM (#4217228)
Best rookie years, before Trout:

Ichiro
Lynn
Robinson (Frank and Jackie)
Teddy Ballgame
Joe DiMaggio
Dwight Gooden
Mark McGwire

An incomplete list I'm sure.
   47. Walt Davis Posted: August 24, 2012 at 09:14 PM (#4217376)
Gooden's super-big year was his 2nd year.
b-r puts Lynn at 7.1 WAR

For position players, the answer seems to be Dick Allen at 8.5 WAR followed by Benny Kauff at 7.8 (and he followed that with a 6.7) but that's Federal League. Ichiro at 7.5 then Lynn at 7.1.

On the pitching side the winner is Russ Ford of the 1910 Yanks with 10.6 followed by Fidrych with 9.3.

So yeah, Trout would seem to have an excellent shot at the modern record.
   48. Poster Nutbag Posted: August 24, 2012 at 09:25 PM (#4217383)
As a lifelong A's fan, and big-time "Angel-Hater!" (respectfully, of course), I merely wonder aloud.... HOW IN THE #### DO YOU NOT GIVE THE KID THE AWARD?!?!?!??!

He can have the NL MVP too, he's that damn good.
   49. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 24, 2012 at 09:55 PM (#4217416)
On the pitching side the winner is Russ Ford of the 1910 Yanks with 10.6 followed by Fidrych with 9.3.


One of the great overlooked rookie pitching seasons was Britt Burns in 1980. "Only" 15-13, but 238 IP at 143 ERA+. 6.7 WAR, easily the best in the league (among rookies, and for that matter, among all pitchers), he finished 5th in the ROY voting. He had more WAR than the 1st, 2nd, and 4th place finishers combined.
   50. flournoy Posted: August 24, 2012 at 10:34 PM (#4217458)
Wait, so is Trout eligible to win the AL Rookie of the Year? I thought he used up his rookie eligibility last year.
   51. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 10:49 PM (#4217478)
A-Rod had 9.2 WAR in 1996, but I guess he wasn't a rookie then. He went just over the eligibility line in 1995 (48 games) and I'd forgotten about his cup of coffee in '94.
   52. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 11:07 PM (#4217493)
I think they should give him an OBE.
   53. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 24, 2012 at 11:13 PM (#4217495)
It's really hard to argue for anyone else


Dude's rockin' a .393 BABIP. If Fangraphs figured batter WAR the way they do pitcher WAR, there would be people arguing (in all seriousness) that Trout is only the third or fourth best hitter on his own team.

Wait, so is Trout eligible to win the AL Rookie of the Year? I thought he used up his rookie eligibility last year.


The eligibility rule says 130 AB (not PA). Trout had 123 last year. I don't think he had 45 days on the active roster prior to September 1 either.
   54. AROM Posted: August 24, 2012 at 11:35 PM (#4217514)
"Gooden's super-big year was his 2nd year."

Yeah, but he was pretty amazing in 84 too. He actually struck out more that year, and in many fewer innings than 1985. Only allowed 7 homers. By FIP 1984 was his best year.
   55. Walt Davis Posted: August 25, 2012 at 01:34 AM (#4217627)
A-Rod had 9.2 WAR in 1996, but I guess he wasn't a rookie then. He went just over the eligibility line in 1995 (48 games) and I'd forgotten about his cup of coffee in '94.

He'd have been missed in my search anyway. P-I doesn't allow you to subset for "rookies" as far as I know. I took 1st or 2nd season then looked to see if it was a rookie year. AROD's 96 was his third "season." It's possible there's another one like him that I missed.

Yeah, but he was pretty amazing in 84 too. He actually struck out more that year, and in many fewer innings than 1985. Only allowed 7 homers. By FIP 1984 was his best year.

Well I wasn't the one to decide against a FIP-based WAR, now was I? :-)
   56. McCoy Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:00 AM (#4217635)
Mike Trout spent 24 days on an MLB roster in July of 2011. He then got optioned down on August 1st. I don't know if that is counted as a day on a major league roster. He then gets called back up in the middle of August and is on the roster for 13 days. So he was about a week shy of the 45 day cutoff.
   57. Booey Posted: August 25, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4217991)
Best rookie years, before Trout:

Ichiro
Lynn
Robinson (Frank and Jackie)
Teddy Ballgame
Joe DiMaggio
Dwight Gooden
Mark McGwire

An incomplete list I'm sure.


Piazza and Pujols both deserve mention, methinks.

Edit: Oh, and Nomar.
   58. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: September 13, 2012 at 06:01 PM (#4235216)
FWIW, Tony Kornheiser and Bill Simmons both just endorsed Hamilton as AL MVP on PTI because he's doing it for a playoff team.
   59. Bitter Mouse Posted: September 13, 2012 at 08:10 PM (#4235345)
It is like a Turing test for sportswriters.
   60. Spivey Posted: September 13, 2012 at 08:41 PM (#4235362)
Hamilton's not even the best player on his team.

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