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Sunday, May 14, 2017

MLB umpire supervisor Steve Palermo dies at 67

RIP to a class act and a genuine hero.

Palermo made his debut as an American League umpire in 1976 and was a full-time ump from ‘77-91.
During the summer of 1991, Palermo and another man were shot while trying to help two waitresses who were being robbed outside a Dallas restaurant. He was left partially paralyzed. But through intense and painful therapy, Palermo was able to walk again with the help of a cane.
Palermo was hired in 1994 as a special assistant to the chairman of the Major League Executive Council. In 2000, he became an umpire supervisor for MLB, serving as a liaison between Major League umpires and the Office of the Commissioner.
From that point on, Palermo became a fixture in the Kauffman Stadium press box.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: May 14, 2017 at 04:12 PM | 76 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: obituaries, steve palermo, umpires

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   1. Scott Lange Posted: May 14, 2017 at 05:43 PM (#5455227)
RIP to a hero.
   2. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 14, 2017 at 07:15 PM (#5455273)
I also fondly remember him as the umpire's voice from Ken Griffey Jr. Presents Major League Baseball. RIP.
   3. Lassus Posted: May 14, 2017 at 07:58 PM (#5455279)
Ugh. I met Palermo working for replay in 2008 and he was an umpire supervisor. In the dictionary next to a possible "previous generation dude who is grumpy all the time with a genuine heart of gold" there would have been a picture of Palermo. This sucks. (I also can't believe he was only 67, I would have thought he was in his 60s when I met him.)
   4. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 11:26 AM (#5455505)
During the summer of 1991, Palermo and another man were shot while trying to help two waitresses who were being robbed outside a Dallas restaurant. He was left partially paralyzed.


It's a sad story. RIP.

It's interesting that over the nearly three decades since this happened the story has become apocryphal. He was not shot while trying to stop a mugging (as many news stories now say) or while trying to help two waitresses who were "being" robbed or mugged (as the above story says). He and the others did indeed run out there because there was a mugging in progress, but by the time they got out there the mugging had already happened. Or was stopped by virtue of them having run out there. Regardless, the four suspects were fleeing. Three by car, one on foot. Palermo and the others made the very poor and ill-fated decision to chase the one fleeing on foot down. They caught up to him and were in the process of calling 911 with the intention of holding to hold him until the cops arrived. Then the other three muggers circled back around in the car and fired a series of shots, one of them striking Palmero.

The essential facts are clear from the original times story here, and in Palmero's own words here.

My point is that Palmero didn't get shot while actually stopping the mugging; he got shot after he and the others made the highly questionable decision after the crime was over to chase dangerous criminals who probably were armed. In this sense the tragedy was preventable.

I'm not here to take away Palmero's hero status. It's legitimate to call him a hero, particularly for rushing out to stop the mugging in the first place; he was certainly more courageous than a great many people would have been. But I think it's fair to ask, after the mugging had stopped and the foot chase began, he was a hero to what end, given that the crime at that point was over? Was it a wise decision for them to chase after the muggers? They have families at home who need them and are counting on them to come back home safely. Had they gotten shot in the progress of stopping the actual mugging and thus saving the victims from harm I wouldn't question their decisions. But again, at some point the mugging ended, and the decision to nevertheless chase them down was made. Palmero was a hero to chase after them after the crime... and that was the precise problem. If you're Sylvester Stallone and this is the movies you chase the muggers down unarmed after the crime was committed and everything works out great. If this is real life you chase them down unarmed and risk getting shot in the back. Their decision to chase after the mugger is an issue that nobody has ever seemed to want to discuss. But I recall reading the news on the day it broke and immediately questioning why they went after the muggers _after_ the crime was over.
   5. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 11:35 AM (#5455513)
The original Times reporting, linked to above:

Palermo, who is 41 years old, had gone to Campisi's Egyptian Restaurant for dinner after working third base in Saturday night's game between the California Angels and the Texas Rangers.

Shortly before 1 A.M., a bartender noticed four men robbing the women at gunpoint in the restaurant's parking lot, the police said. Palermo, Mann and a restaurant employee rushed to help.

Three of the suspects drove off in a car, according to authorities. Palermo, Mann and the employee chased the fourth across a highway overpass, said Vicki Hawkins, a spokeswoman for the Dallas police.

While Palermo and the two others tried to apprehend the suspect -- without any weapon of their own -- the three who had fled in the car returned and one of them fired two shots, striking Palermo in the back and Mann in the neck, Hawkins said.


Palmero's own words, also linked to above:

Palermo and the other members of his umpiring crew were working a Texas Rangers-California Angels series in Arlington, Texas, the weekend before the All-Star break in 1991. After the game on July 7, they were having a late dinner at Campisi’s Egyptian Restaurant in Dallas, a favorite haunt for umpires.

"We are unwinding after the game, and one of the employees hollers that two of the waitresses, who were walking to their cars, were being mugged," recalled Palermo. "A friend of mine, Terrance Mann, a former football player at Southern Methodist University, and I were running after this one mugger. We catch him and one of the other guys calls 911.

"While we are waiting for the police, this car pulled up and a guy got out and pulled a .32 caliber pistol. He fired five shots at us. The first bullet hits T-Man (in the neck) and went in and out. The second bullet hit him (in the arm) and went in and out. The third bullet hit his right thigh.

"The fourth bullet hit a wall behind us, and then fifth bullet hit me, waist high. It actually bounced off my kidney, hit my spinal cord and hit the nerves that come out at the base of your spine, the Cauda Equina. … I’m laying on the ground and thinking, ‘Now you’ve got yourself in something you can’t even talk your way out of."
   6. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 15, 2017 at 11:36 AM (#5455514)
Well, we can retire the concept of a parody RDP post forever now. It's never going to surpass #4.

(Not that I question the truth of the actual content and the validity of the question raised, but come on, it's like the Platonic form of the RDP post.)
   7. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 11:43 AM (#5455519)
We should not be conditioning people that it's ok to chase after dangerous criminals after the crime is over despite being unarmed and untrained, and that's what skipping over the real issue here does.
   8. Batman Posted: May 15, 2017 at 11:43 AM (#5455520)
Never saw him stop a mugging.
   9. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 15, 2017 at 11:46 AM (#5455524)
We should not be conditioning people that it's ok to chase after dangerous criminals after the crime is over despite being unarmed and untrained, and that's what skipping over the real issue here does.

I don't disagree with the substance. I'm just amused by the perfection of the format. All in good fun.
   10. dlf Posted: May 15, 2017 at 11:56 AM (#5455530)
Sometimes you should do the right thing even if it is personally dangerous. In Palermo's case, the muggers had already struck two others earlier in the day and in all likelihood wouldn't have stopped after the one at Campisi's.

...

I think Palermo isn't a hero because of what he did that night - while I may be naïve, I think that most folks are willing to take personal risks to help others - but in how he handled the next three decades of his life. He always voiced a positive attitude and a refusal to say that he shouldn't have stepped up to help despite the tremendous cost to him. Doing something in a split second is practically instinct; continuing on for decades takes a strong character. Mr. Palermo showed the latter in spades.
   11. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 11:58 AM (#5455533)
We should not be conditioning people that it's ok to chase after dangerous criminals after the crime is over despite being unarmed and untrained, and that's what skipping over the real issue here does.
"Leave it to the government" is a rather oddly unlibertarian argument from a self-described libertarian. (Not sure what being unarmed or untrained has to do with it. Was he going to train his kidney not to deflect a bullet? Or did you think he was going to shoot the bullets out of the air?)
   12. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 15, 2017 at 12:06 PM (#5455541)
"Leave it to the government" is a rather oddly unlibertarian argument from a self-described libertarian. (Not sure what being unarmed or untrained has to do with it. Was he going to train his kidney not to deflect a bullet? Or did you think he was going to shoot the bullets out of the air?)

I honestly can't tell if this is tongue-in-cheek or not...if not, we can also retire the concept of a parody Nieporent post forever.
   13. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 12:08 PM (#5455543)
"Leave it to the government" is a rather oddly unlibertarian argument from a self-described libertarian. (Not sure what being unarmed or untrained has to do with it. Was he going to train his kidney not to deflect a bullet? Or did you think he was going to shoot the bullets out of the air?)


My actual argument was that he had a greater responsibility to his family than he had to society and potential future victims to apprehend a dangerous criminal after the crime had already been committed.

Do you disagree? Do your wife and children deserve consideration before you go off and play Jason Statham?
   14. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 12:08 PM (#5455545)
Again - I'm discussing the decision to chase them down after the fact. I have not criticized him for running out to the parking lot to try to help to begin with.
   15. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 12:11 PM (#5455547)
I honestly can't tell if this is tongue-in-cheek or not...if not, we can also retire the concept of a parody Nieporent post forever.


Yeah, I don't know why David is having trouble with the concepts of unarmed and untrained as I used them. Seems like your average 6 year old could readily understand. And yet he goes off on a bizarre tangent with a nonsensical application of the terms.
   16. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 15, 2017 at 12:14 PM (#5455550)
Yeah, I don't know why David is having trouble with the concepts of unarmed and untrained as I used them. Seems like your average 6 year old could readily understand. And yet he goes off on a bizarre tangent with a nonsensical application of the terms.

It's more the "even catching armed criminals shouldn't be left to the state" aspect that I can't tell if it's tongue-in-cheek or True and Pure Libertarianism.
   17. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 12:26 PM (#5455562)
It's more the "even catching armed criminals shouldn't be left to the state" aspect that I can't tell if it's tongue-in-cheek or True and Pure Libertarianism.


I agree with you.
   18. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 12:31 PM (#5455566)
I have not criticized him for running out to the parking lot to try to help to begin with.
Why not? Doesn't he have more of an obligation to his family than to the victims?

Yeah, I don't know why David is having trouble with the concepts of unarmed and untrained as I used them.
I don't have any trouble with the concepts; I have trouble with the relevance. Given the facts of this case, what training or armaments would have prevented Palermo from being injured?
   19. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 12:34 PM (#5455570)
It's more the "even catching armed criminals shouldn't be left to the state" aspect that I can't tell if it's tongue-in-cheek or True and Pure Libertarianism.
I don't have any problem with the existence of a police force to catch criminals. I have a problem with the attitude, "Oh, I'm here witnessing something happening right in front of me, but it's not my problem; I'll leave it to the state."
   20. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 15, 2017 at 12:38 PM (#5455575)
I have a problem with the attitude, "Oh, I'm here witnessing something happening right in front of me, but it's not my problem; I'll leave it to the state."

How about this? "There are people who are much, much better equipped to deal with this problem than I am, and I probably am not in a position to do anything particularly effective. In addition, I would be putting myself at significant risk of major harm. So, probably better to leave it to the people who are actually equipped, trained/skilled and paid to deal with the situation."
   21. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 12:39 PM (#5455577)
I have not criticized him for running out to the parking lot to try to help to begin with.

Why not? Doesn't he have more of an obligation to his family than to the victims?


You're expecting me to say no but the answer of course is yes. Which I guess is some sort of gotcha for you and shows how depraved I am for holding the interests of family members above those of strangers, or something.

Anyway, I didn't say that decision couldn't be questioned; I said I haven't criticized him for it.

   22. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 12:41 PM (#5455580)
But I notice you didn't answer my question, which was:

My actual argument was that he had a greater responsibility to his family than he had to society and potential future victims to apprehend a dangerous criminal after the crime had already been committed.

Do you disagree? Do your wife and children deserve consideration before you go off and play Jason Statham?


   23. The Good Face Posted: May 15, 2017 at 01:00 PM (#5455601)
It's more the "even catching armed criminals shouldn't be left to the state" aspect that I can't tell if it's tongue-in-cheek or True and Pure Libertarianism.


I'd be willing to live in a "Libertarian Utopia" if it meant we'd get to watch DMN chase criminals around on his stubby little legs.
   24. Lassus Posted: May 15, 2017 at 01:26 PM (#5455630)
My actual argument was that he had a greater responsibility to his family than he had to society and potential future victims to apprehend a dangerous criminal after the crime had already been committed. Do you disagree? Do your wife and children deserve consideration before you go off and play Jason Statham?

I think marking this as a super-easy, binary question to answer in a split-second is not entirely honest.
   25. Jose is an Absurd Doubles Machine Posted: May 15, 2017 at 02:37 PM (#5455703)
At the risk of being rude and insensitive and against the spirit of the thread I just want to note that I am very sad that a man generally regarded as a terrific guy has passed away. My sympathies go out to his family and friends.
   26. BrianBrianson Posted: May 15, 2017 at 02:45 PM (#5455715)
and I probably am not in a position to do anything particularly effective.


Here's the failure of the argument, though. He likely believed he was in a position to do something effective. He was (presumably) wrong. But it was his best guess at the time. I mean - I've intervened once in a violent confrontation between strangers (to detain this guy until the police arrived). Now, one could've had a gun (or really, even a knife) and I could've been hurt or killed. But it was my best guess at the time that intervening was the right choice, and that I could do something effective.
   27. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 02:57 PM (#5455724)
At the risk of being rude and insensitive and against the spirit of the thread


Being passive aggressive isn't actually a virtue.
   28. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 15, 2017 at 03:01 PM (#5455726)
Here's the failure of the argument, though. He likely believed he was in a position to do something effective. He was (presumably) wrong. But it was his best guess at the time. I mean - I've intervened once in a violent confrontation between strangers (to detain this guy until the police arrived). Now, one could've had a gun (or really, even a knife) and I could've been hurt or killed. But it was my best guess at the time that intervening was the right choice, and that I could do something effective.

Oh, completely fair point - I wasn't trying to criticize Palermo for taking the action he did, I was just trying to frame the logic of non-intervention in fairer terms than David in #19.
   29. PreservedFish Posted: May 15, 2017 at 03:06 PM (#5455734)
Here's the failure of the argument, though. He likely believed he was in a position to do something effective. He was (presumably) wrong.


He might have been correct. Palermo and his buddies - one of them a former football player - did chase down one of the criminals, and they would have brought him to justice had his buddies not swung back around and fired from the getaway vehicle.
   30. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 03:21 PM (#5455747)
Oh, completely fair point - I wasn't trying to criticize Palermo for taking the action he did, I was just trying to frame the logic of non-intervention in fairer terms than David in #19.
But you're not really disagreeing with me; I wasn't suggesting that one should help if one couldn't help, any more than I would suggest that one ought to perform emergency cardiothoracic surgery if one is a piano teacher and one's student keels over. The argument Ray was making wasn't "People shouldn't help if they can't"; but "People shouldn't take risks, but instead leave that to the government."
   31. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 03:23 PM (#5455749)
You're expecting me to say no but the answer of course is yes. Which I guess is some sort of gotcha for you and shows how depraved I am for holding the interests of family members above those of strangers, or something.
No, the gotcha is your inconsistency, not your depravity.
   32. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 03:23 PM (#5455750)
Here's the failure of the argument, though. He likely believed he was in a position to do something effective. He was (presumably) wrong.

He might have been correct. Palermo and his buddies - one of them a former football player - did chase down one of the criminals, and they would have brought him to justice had his buddies not swung back around and fired from the getaway vehicle.


Wouldn't that mean he was definitely _not_ correct?
   33. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 03:29 PM (#5455754)
Wouldn't that mean he was definitely _not_ correct?
They caught the guy they were chasing.
   34. PreservedFish Posted: May 15, 2017 at 03:32 PM (#5455756)
They caught the guy they were chasing.

Right, that was my point. The shooting was unforeseen. Now, he was wrong to get involved, because it exposed him to dangerous unforeseen circumstances like that. My point was just that the reasonable hypothetical fellow in comment #20 sounds rather helpless. These guys don't sound helpless. Just reckless.

To be clear I don't think I disagree with anyone about anything here, except maybe David, as I'm not entirely sure what he's arguing.
   35. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 03:32 PM (#5455757)
The argument Ray was making wasn't "People shouldn't help if they can't"; but "People shouldn't take risks, but instead leave that to the government."


You're obsessed with "the government" but that isn't relevant per se. Yes, we have a police system and -- bumbling keystone as they may often be -- they're definitely better at finding and apprehending criminals than a bunch of umpires and an ex athlete are. For one thing they have lethal weapons and little accountability. For another there's a chance they've done this before. For a third they have investigatory tools and the weight of the state behind them.

But I wasn't arguing that people shouldn't take risks, but that they shouldn't take major risks with no immediately identifiable gain (here the mugging was over and any future victims were speculative and Palermo isn't an arm of law enforcement), and with family members at home who need them and love them. Here, Palermo et al went racing off after one of the four suspects after the crime had already been committed. As sad events subsequently showed, that proved to be a risk that was IMO too high with a reward too low for them to take. (Keep in mind also that while Palermo was the only one seriously hurt, the damage could have been far, far worse. One of them was shot twice, including in the neck. It's fortunate that one or more of them weren't killed.)
   36. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 03:35 PM (#5455766)
They caught the guy they were chasing.

Right, that was my point. The shooting was unforeseen.


No it was not, as even you say in your next sentence:

Now, he was wrong to get involved, because it exposed him to dangerous unforeseen circumstances like that.


The scope of risk they were taking on was massive. Four young adults willing to mug and rob women, and if they had weapons and were willing to use them it would come as zero surprise. It was also no surprise that the three of them circled back around, first because they were presumably all friends watching each others' backs, and second because if one of them is caught it's likely the others are fingered.
   37. PreservedFish Posted: May 15, 2017 at 03:39 PM (#5455770)

The scope of risk they were taking on was massive.


Agreed.
   38. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 03:40 PM (#5455773)
Incidentally, as to scope of risk, this is why I don't get into heated arguments with strangers; I recognize that the scope of what he is willing to do in the context of a silly argument is (a) unknown and (b) probably greater than the scope of what I'm willing to do. It's not like we never see someone end up knifed or dead after a silly argument over a parking space or something. It's not a risk that I find acceptable to take on given the miniscule value of whatever is at stake.
   39. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: May 15, 2017 at 03:45 PM (#5455781)
Palmero was a hero to chase after them after the crime... and that was the precise problem. If you're Sylvester Stallone and this is the movies you chase the muggers down unarmed after the crime was committed and everything works out great. If this is real life you chase them down unarmed and risk getting shot in the back. Their decision to chase after the mugger is an issue that nobody has ever seemed to want to discuss.
Yeah, no.

You're a "hero"* for putting the safety of others above yours; that's why we describe soldiers, police officers, and firemen as such. Even if the mugging was over and the perpetrator was just running away, Palermo et al were in fact doing something heroic because they had to know there was a non-zero chance they'd get hurt/killed for chasing him. And as such, they deserve all of the praise they received.

Let's change the situation a bit: On the way home from umpiring a night game, Palermo sees a car accident that just happened; there may be injuries. While helping those involved, a drunk driver hits him. Do you denigrate him because he should've stayed in his car and just called an ambulance?

*Not a scare quote
   40. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: May 15, 2017 at 03:51 PM (#5455786)
I'll also go out on a limb and say Ray's the type of guy who thinks inner-city poor people should do exactly what Palermo did - clean the streets up themselves since the police are (per his #35) "bumbling keystone(s)".
   41. PreservedFish Posted: May 15, 2017 at 03:56 PM (#5455794)
Not sure where TDF is coming from with all that, but it's sure to turn what was a well-behaved discussion into a classic internet battle of bad generalizations, assumptions and ridiculous argumentative tactics
   42. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:01 PM (#5455802)
Let's change the situation a bit: On the way home from umpiring a night game, Palermo sees a car accident that just happened; there may be injuries. While helping those involved, a drunk driver hits him. Do you denigrate him because he should've stayed in his car and just called an ambulance?

Well, let's be fair. No one is "denigrating" him, they're just saying that maybe that type of decision isn't one that should be universally encouraged. And in your hypothetical, the risk of getting hit by a drunk driver is a) way, way smaller and b) way, way less foreseeable than the risk of harm from a group of people who just committed a mugging.
   43. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:10 PM (#5455812)
Yeah, no.

You're a "hero"* for putting the safety of others above yours; that's why we describe soldiers, police officers, and firemen as such.


*I* don't describe soldiers, police officers, and firemen as such. In actuality these are just jobs people are getting paid to do.

(But again, I did and do describe Palermo as a hero.)
   44. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:11 PM (#5455814)
I'll also go out on a limb and say Ray's the type of guy who thinks inner-city poor people should do exactly what Palermo did - clean the streets up themselves since the police are (per his #35) "bumbling keystone(s)".


That limb just snapped, and you will find no example of me ever advocating anything of the sort. What a bizarre sidebar.
   45. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:15 PM (#5455821)
It's interesting, yet again, that I'm described as the Aspergerian robot who has no human emotion. And yet I'm the one advocating considering that you have a moral duty to your family who loves you to not run around playing unarmed cop after the crime is over.
   46. BrianBrianson Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:16 PM (#5455824)
I suspect people's estimation of the likelihood of the other guys circling back is horrifically colored by knowing the outcome. I would suspect the actually chance of petty muggers circling back for a confrontation after being chased off and pursued is really low - more likely, Palermo was just really unlucky here.
   47. PreservedFish Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:20 PM (#5455834)
#46 - that's also my feeling, which is why I described the shots as "unforeseen." But there was a clear risk - I would not have charged after the guy.
   48. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:27 PM (#5455844)
I'll also go out on a limb and say Ray's the type of guy who thinks inner-city poor people should do exactly what Palermo did - clean the streets up themselves since the police are (per his #35) "bumbling keystone(s)".

That limb just snapped, and you will find no example of me ever advocating anything of the sort. What a bizarre sidebar.
If I described you wrongly - if you don't think the citizens are primarily responsible for cleaning up their neighborhood crime - I apologize. However,
And yet I'm the one advocating considering that you have a moral duty to your family who loves you to not run around playing unarmed cop after the crime is over.
Your "moral duty" isn't higher to one person over another; every life is equally important.

Finally, what if those same muggers would've next targeted Palmero's family? Does (or should) that change the calculation of if he should've acted?
   49. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:27 PM (#5455845)
I suspect people's estimation of the likelihood of the other guys circling back is horrifically colored by knowing the outcome. I would suspect the actually chance of petty muggers circling back for a confrontation after being chased off and pursued is really low - more likely, Palermo was just really unlucky here.


I disagree, but regardless, within the scope of foreseeable risk was that something very bad could happen to us if we do this. Predicting the exact circumstances that would unfold ahead of time was not needed. And at that, this was not some other random criminals dropping out of the sky; this was the exact criminals that were involved.
   50. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:31 PM (#5455855)
Your "moral duty" isn't higher to one person over another; every life is equally important.


I couldn't disagree more. The lives of our loved ones who have raised us/committed to us/need us and expended time and resources and energy and love on us are worth more to us than the lives of strangers and deserve more from us than do strangers. If you don't agree, then you're the robot.
   51. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:33 PM (#5455860)
The lives of our loved ones who have raised us/committed to us/need us and expended time and resources and energy and love on us are worth more to us than the lives of strangers. If not, then you're the robot.
Nah, I'm just not selfish.
   52. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5455862)
You can rationalize it however you want. Whatever you need to tell yourself, go ahead.
   53. PreservedFish Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:46 PM (#5455869)
nevermind. Bizarre argument in here.
   54. Lassus Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:46 PM (#5455870)
Finally, what if those same muggers would've next targeted Palmero's family?

Then Palermo would have become Spider-Man.
   55. BrianBrianson Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:50 PM (#5455873)
I would agree we generally owe our friends and family more than relative strangers. But there's still some risk-reward calculus for strangers - I don't want to live in a society where strangers abandon me because there's some marginal risk to themselves, so I can treat strangers like that either. I don't know what was stolen, and I don't know what a realistic evaluation of the risks are. I trust Palermo's evaluation of those things more than guys on the internet who know very little about the situation.
   56. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:50 PM (#5455875)
I suspect people's estimation of the likelihood of the other guys circling back is horrifically colored by knowing the outcome.

Yeah, could be.

Your "moral duty" isn't higher to one person over another; every life is equally important.

Interesting statement. I would agree that, objectively and universally speaking, every life is equally important (maybe with the usual caveats about Hitler and such). But I don't think there's anything wrong or selfish whatsoever about people considering the lives of their loved ones somewhat more important to them. In fact, it's pretty close to the universal human condition.
   57. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:51 PM (#5455876)
nevermind. Bizarre argument in here.


You're right, though; if TDF's argument holds he should be spreading around whatever wealth or income he has equally to all children in the world rather than just his own children. So each child gets a fraction of a penny or whatever including his own kids.

Etc, etc.
   58. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:52 PM (#5455877)
I trust Palermo's evaluation of those things more than guys on the internet who know very little about the situation.

Oh, come on, "guys on the internet" is a virtually omniscient source.
   59. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:54 PM (#5455881)
I would agree we generally owe our friends and family more than relative strangers. But there's still some risk-reward calculus for strangers - I don't want to live in a society where strangers abandon me because there's some marginal risk to themselves, so I can treat strangers like that either.


I completely agree with this. My whole point here has been that in chasing after the muggers after the crime had stopped Palmero and his friends set their risk-reward calculation at an unjustifiable level given the moral duty they had to their loved ones.
   60. PreservedFish Posted: May 15, 2017 at 05:00 PM (#5455889)
And I think there's a decent argument that society itself would rather have Palermo stay put, stay safe and not endanger himself. He's valuable as a family man. One mugger "getting away with it" is not of critical importance to our society, nor even is the return of the waitress' purse.
   61. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: May 15, 2017 at 05:21 PM (#5455907)
You're right, though; if TDF's argument holds he should be spreading around whatever wealth or income he has equally to all children in the world rather than just his own children.
I do what I can.

I'm not going to put my loved ones in danger for someone else; but to say "I'll pass on helping that guy because I need to go to work tomorrow"? Sorry, that's not me.
   62. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 05:30 PM (#5455913)
I'm not going to put my loved ones in danger for someone else; but to say "I'll pass on helping that guy because I need to go to work tomorrow"? Sorry, that's not me.


That's not the argument.
   63. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 05:31 PM (#5455915)
Do you cry or grieve as much when you learn of someone in the world dying as you do/would if it were a loved one? I'm just trying to figure out your baseline here.
   64. Brian C Posted: May 15, 2017 at 05:50 PM (#5455930)
I suspect that if Ray's argument a) was being made by someone other than Ray, and b) wasn't in the thread about the death of a widely respected man, that he would be getting approximately zero pushback for what he's saying.

Running after the perps is a dangerous game, and in most circumstances probably not a great idea. People might quibble around the margins of that statement, but still it is not in the slightest a controversial stance to have.
   65. Ziggy: The Platonic Form of Russell Branyan Posted: May 15, 2017 at 05:52 PM (#5455933)
You can think that all lives are equally valuable while denying that it follows that you should treat everyone equally. I bet that there are lots of deontologist who do say this. How you should treat someone might be determined by things like how they've treated you (just for example), instead of just being a function of what would generate the most value over all.
   66. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: May 15, 2017 at 06:27 PM (#5455985)
Running after the perps is a dangerous game, and in most circumstances probably not a great idea.
I agree. But my problem is specifically with Ray's #4, where he dances around any clear position but seems to be saying Palermo is...I dunno, less than full hero because he didn't think of his family first. Not for what he did, or why he did it, but because he didn't stop and consider all of the implications (especially the personal ones) first.
   67. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 15, 2017 at 06:51 PM (#5456007)
There's nothing unclear about my position.
   68. dejarouehg Posted: May 15, 2017 at 09:10 PM (#5456084)
every life is equally important.


So the lives of the muggers (or any violent criminals - my bar is a lot lower than Hitler and the like,) are equally important to their victims?

I'll never understand this mindset.
   69. dejarouehg Posted: May 15, 2017 at 09:21 PM (#5456091)
*I* don't describe soldiers, police officers, and firemen as such. In actuality these are just jobs people are getting paid to do.


I don't think it's fair to exclude people who are being paid to defend society from attaining "hero" status. I'm not overly thrilled with police on the whole but when they started running into the towers to attempt to rescue people, whether it was their job or not, I believe that's worthy of the highest level of approbation. (Of course, the same goes for the other first responders, I'm just using police as the example given that my first-hand experiences with them has not made a great impression.)

   70. Bruce Markusen Posted: May 16, 2017 at 12:30 AM (#5456167)
Getting back to the subject of Steve Palermo himself, I think it's easy to forget what a great umpire Palermo was. At the time of the tragic incident, he was generally regarded as the best umpire in the American League--the junior circuit's equivalent to Doug Harvey, if you will. I'm fully convinced that if Palermo's on-field career had not ended that night, he would have become a Hall of Fame umpire.

Palermo was universally liked and respected within the game. He could handle almost any on-field situation. When he made a ruling on the field, people on both teams generally accepted it.
   71. Lassus Posted: May 16, 2017 at 08:00 AM (#5456201)
When he made a ruling on the field, people on both teams generally accepted it.

Certain voices are prone to projection and leadership, and from my incredibly brief interaction with him, he had that voice. Not volume, presence.
   72. Dolf Lucky Posted: May 16, 2017 at 08:05 AM (#5456204)
Palermo was universally liked and respected within the game.


I'm glad you wrote this. I have spent the entire thread confusing Palermo for Dave Pallone, who was no friend of the Reds in the 80's. When I read the part about being universally liked, I knew I had the wrong guy in mind.
   73. Charles S. is a big fan of Outerbridge Horsey Posted: May 16, 2017 at 10:16 AM (#5456277)
I don't know what Terrance Mann looks like, but if they ever make a movie about Palermo's life, and James Earl Jones doesn't play Terrance Mann, then that's a real missed opportunity.
   74. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2017 at 12:02 PM (#5456413)
I don't know what Terrance Mann looks like, but if they ever make a movie about Palermo's life, and James Earl Jones doesn't play Terrance Mann, then that's a real missed opportunity.

You know, I was thinking about James Earl Jones yesterday after seeing an Arby's commercial that has a voice-over that sounds quite a bit like him. Jones is now 86, and you'd have to think that a bunch of voice actors have been waiting him out for quite a while. That would be a very specific niche to fill, and also a substantial amount of guaranteed work.
   75. GGC:BTF's Biggest Underachiever Posted: May 16, 2017 at 12:53 PM (#5456474)
Ving Rhames is the voice of Arby's (and ADT.)
   76. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2017 at 12:59 PM (#5456487)
Ving Rhames is the voice of Arby's (and ADT.)

Interesting. Looks like he's got the gig, then, if multiple high-profile campaigns are hiring him. I wonder if that was a conscious strategy on his part.

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