Hard to glean what Howe's story was. I always regarded him as kinda tragic but people whose opinions I respect seem to be saying this guy was a rock solid dude. Either way, nobody should go at 48.

Makes me sad.

Howe was a bit before my time, since I didn't start following baseball until '92. Even so his name was familiar. I remember all the late night comics making jokes at his expense.

Can't say I had much of an opinion before yest, but most of the people that knew him seem to say that he was 'a rock solid dude' with a problem. That makes it all the more tragic, esp. if he finally overcame the addictions.

Rock solid dude?
Seven-time drug loser.
He always had someone to blame for his lapses.
He never accepted responsbility.
We have a tendency to glamorize the dead, but in this case, this is a sad story of a talented athlete who was a loser in life.

R.I.P Steve.

Some people might have issues with how MLB disciplined Howe, which is understandable ,but I was always hoping he could free himself for good from the grip of drugs.

Rock solid dude?
Seven-time drug loser.
He always had someone to blame for his lapses.
He never accepted responsbility.
We have a tendency to glamorize the dead, but in this case, this is a sad story of a talented athlete who was a loser in life.

It's sad that people are so unwilling to recognize that there are some addictions so powerful that even the fiercest willpower could never overcome them. Howe is tragic, not because he is a "loser", but because he had a chronic, soul-stealing medical problem that destroyed his career and life.

So being a cokehead is the same as having say, diabetes? Or getting cancer? Please, you have got to be kidding.

Alcoholism is a disease, but it's the only one you can get yelled at for having. "Dammit, Otto, you are an alcoholic." "Dammit, Otto, you have Lupus." One of those two doesn't sound right.

coming from a family with alcoholics and drug addicts

i gotta say this

the alcoholic/drug addict CHOSE to use in the first place. this is not true with lupus. it don't happen because of a lifestyle choices

and alcoholism/drug addict is a mental illness.

and here we go back to the mental illness treatment thread problem where a whole lot of people don't like using medicine to treat mental illness. or think anything besides seeing martians IS mental illness.

and then chris got a point about yelling at otto.

but then i'll always hear what one of my aunties said - i'd rather be dead than sober

do you ever hear - i'd rather be dead than not have lupus? even if it means i gotta take medicine for the rest of my life???

people who don't think substance abuse problems are real illness don't know much about illness. hth.

I hope that Dwight Gooden is paying attention and taking notes.

coming from a family with alcoholics and drug addicts

i gotta say this

the alcoholic/drug addict CHOSE to use in the first place. this is not true with lupus. it don't happen because of a lifestyle choices

and alcoholism/drug addict is a mental illness.

and here we go back to the mental illness treatment thread problem where a whole lot of people don't like using medicine to treat mental illness. or think anything besides seeing martians IS mental illness.

and then chris got a point about yelling at otto.

but then i'll always hear what one of my aunties said - i'd rather be dead than sober

do you ever hear - i'd rather be dead than not have lupus? even if it means i gotta take medicine for the rest of my life???

Ever heard the Brother to Brother/Gil Scott-Heron song "The Bottle"? The narrator goes through the whole song describing how alcoholism is destroying his neighborhood, his culture, etc. Then, at the very end, he tells us the next time we see him, he'll be the one down on the corner, sucking down the cheap wine, oblivious.

Godd***n chilling song, that is. For some reason your (excellent) post reminded me.

We all probably have a switch in us that gets flipped on from time to time, triggering some pretty irresponsible and even self-destructive behavior. What was it Shakespeare or Ben Franklin or someone said? Nine men in ten are suicides? Most of us also have a self-regulating mechanism, sort of like a breaker I guess, that shuts the bad behavior down pretty quickly, though. But we probably have all known a person or three for whom the switch got flipped and it never turned off because for whatever reason they didn't have it in them to stop or maybe even want to.

That's how I think of Howe. Reading in the obit thread how his wife had to shackle him when she went grocery shopping, or otherwise he'd run right out to buy drugs as soon as she left... he was terminal long before Friday morning.

I've always thought of Howe in conjunction with Rod Scurry, not necessarily for good reasons. Don't guess I'll ever be able to shake the idea now, after this.

Actually, bc, a lot of illnesses are caused by lifestyle choices. For example, if you smoke you may well get lung cancer, if you eat unhealthily you may get heart disease, if you sleep around you may get STDs, etc etc etc. A smoker dying of lung cancer has in some sense, brought it on themselves. However, that doesn't mean that they aren't deserving of our sympathy and support.

It's the same with Steve Howe. Yes, his poor choices caused his illness and perhaps his early death. But that doesn't mean that his illness wasn't real, or that he didn't need help. To call him a loser is heartless and cruel. Of course Steve Howe's case is a tragedy - an all-too-common tragedy over the past few decades. Drug use is, sadly, endemic in our society.

people who don't think substance abuse problems are real illness don't know much about illness. hth.

Q: How many legs does a dog have if you call its tail a leg?
A: Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one.


That having been said, Steve Howe, to my knowledge, hurt exactly nobody by using cocaine. Contrary to all the obituaries, his career was not "derailed by cocaine." His career was derailed by people who kept punishing him for using cocaine.

TwoAlous Posted: April 29, 2006 at 04:37 PM (#1995950)

Actually, bc, a lot of illnesses are caused by lifestyle choices.

yeah, i know. but chris said lupus, so i said lupus.

and i know a LOT of people who got diabetes from drinking cokes and eating junk food all day long who will NOT lose weight or change the eating and exercise even though they KNOW it will get them blind and get their feet cut off and get them heart attacks and get them using viagra.

not real too much different than i'd rather be dead than sober

Q: How many legs does a dog have if you call its tail a leg?
A: Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one.


That having been said, Steve Howe, to my knowledge, hurt exactly nobody by using cocaine. Contrary to all the obituaries, his career was not "derailed by cocaine." His career was derailed by people who kept punishing him for using cocaine.

He hurt nobody but himself and his family. Nothing worth mentioning to a big-time libertarian.

But why do you think someone continues to use a drug long after he has ceased to feel any high? Why do you think someone will turn to desperate crime to get enough money to buy just another dose? Why do you think someone will starve because they think the drug is more important to them than food?

Do you belive it is because they're thinking rationally and making lifestyle choices?

yeah, i know. but chris said lupus, so i said lupus.

it's a mitch hedberg bit. ... another immensely talented guy that died too soon from complications due to drug abuse.

well david,

if cocaine is a performance UNhancer, he might could have hurt his teammates, hurt their fans.

and he fer SHER hurt his wife and kidss. and i don't mean with a fist neither

A lot of the full-blown coke addicts haven't exactly done well when they were known to be struggling with the blow.

So being a cokehead is the same as having say, diabetes? Or getting cancer? Please, you have got to be kidding.

Well, since many diabetes addicts get diabetes from being a fat ass, and many people get cancer because they smoke, why not?

Food and smoking are addictions too, just legal since the gummint says so.

Well ####, you all convinced me, it wasn't Steve Howe's fault he became a cokehead and pissed his life away. It is not any drug abuser or alcoholic's fault that they became that way. They have absolutly no free will at all to not use. Hell it is all genetic I bet. Yup, that is it. I bet Steve's mommy or daddy was an alky. Yup that is the way it goes. Waaa waaa.

Steve couldn't get off the sauce because he didn;t want to. Period. Quote me all the statistics and all the studies but the plain and simple truth is people drink or do smack or coke or whatever because they want to. All they have to do is put down the bottle or crackpipe and quit. It is that simple. It just takes a strong will.


I am done. Don't reply.

Yep, Bernal the chef knows more than every doctor and psychologist in America.

Okay.

Actually, bc, a lot of illnesses are caused by lifestyle choices. For example, if you smoke you may well get lung cancer, if you eat unhealthily you may get heart disease, if you sleep around you may get STDs, etc etc etc. A smoker dying of lung cancer has in some sense, brought it on themselves. However, that doesn't mean that they aren't deserving of our sympathy and support.

It's true, a lot of illnesses/diseases are caused by a lifestyle choice (smoking, poor eating habits, etc.) But in those cases, the illness is a possible byproduct of the action, though others may engage in the same behavior and never suffer the same health issues. But alcoholism/drug abuse is different in that the action is the disease.

At any point in Steve Howe's life he could have made the choice to stop using. It seems he never made that choice. It doesn't matter where his addiction started, it rarely does. All that matters is how one deals with that addiction. It is up to the adict to stop, no one else.

Oh and before you poo poo me again you might want to wonder why a chef knows about alcoholism and addiction. I just may know what I am talking about. The points that anger me is when addicts use the "disease" aspect as an excuse and a reason why they can't get sober. Howe, it seems, never had to take responsibilty for his actions. Too bad for those he left behind.

At any point in Steve Howe's life he could have made the choice to stop using. It seems he never made that choice. It doesn't matter where his addiction started, it rarely does. All that matters is how one deals with that addiction. It is up to the adict to stop, no one else.

bernal, i can't argue with this, i just think, at least for me, it's not the point. to me, it's a shame when somebody succombs to an addiction. it's hard to beat addictions and not everybody is strong enough to stop ... it sucks.

bernal, i can't argue with this, i just think, at least for me, it's not the point.

Then what is the point?

If you agree that addiction is a disease then it is the only disease you can choose to be cured and stay cured by your own free will. If you get cancer you can't one day wake up and say, "That's it, I don;t have this tumor anymore, it is gone"

Then what is the point?

well there were 2 more sentances.

Bernal the chef knows more than every doctor and psychologist in America.

If you think every doctor and psychologist agrees with "addiction as disease", you are grossly in error.

you are grossly in error.

literally. that's a fact.

If you agree that addiction is a disease then it is the only disease you can choose to be cured and stay cured by your own free will. If you get cancer you can't one day wake up and say, "That's it, I don;t have this tumor anymore, it is gone"

Using this logic, do you think there is no such thing as a mental illness?

literally. that's a fact.

See? Sometimes, someone uses them corectly!

What was Howe doing in Coachella? Yes wasn't on the bill.

Using this logic, do you think there is no such thing as a mental illness?

One cannot cure one's self from schizophrenia. You cannot "quit" being crazy cold turkey. You can quit booze or drugs.

The biggest issue I have with claiming alcholism is a disease is that most relapsed drunks use this as an excuse at to why they can't stay off the sauce. It is a cop out. Sorry if you disagree.

The biggest issue I have with claiming alcholism is a disease is that most relapsed drunks use this as an excuse at to why they can't stay off the sauce. It is a cop out. Sorry if you disagree.

the flipside is that recovering addicts use this as reason not to touch any addictive substance even if it's just 1 beer.

the flipside is that recovering addicts use this as reason not to touch any addictive substance even if it's just 1 beer.

That is a bit simplistic.

Look, I am not going to get in a big discussion on what motivates an alcholic to recovery or to drinking again. Suffice it to say that I believe that while one may pre predisposed to becoming an alcholic because of upbringing, one has the choice as to drink or not. Always. Everytime an alcholic picks up or puts down the bottle he is making a choice. A huge part of recovery is accepting responsiblity for your actions.

Oh and before you poo poo me again you might want to wonder why a chef knows about alcoholism and addiction. I just may know what I am talking about. The points that anger me is when addicts use the "disease" aspect as an excuse and a reason why they can't get sober. Howe, it seems, never had to take responsibilty for his actions. Too bad for those he left behind.

So your situation is applicable to every other addict?

Bernal,

Not to pick a fight, but you have no clue what you are talking about.

I know many people with substance addictions, and many people who deal with it professionally. I have been dealing extensively with people with substance abuse problems all of my life.

All this time I have not heard of a single person that got cured by deciding to quit the stuff and having the willpower to do it. Actually that is cheating, because technically an addiction is never "cured" it is just controlled. Just like Diabetes (which i have) for an addict, remaining sober is all about discipline and dedication to proper habits. Do it right and you can control it for years, pretend you don't have a problem and whether it is diabetes or addiction you will end up in a hospital or worse.

Secondly I have not heard of a single person that succesfully controlled their addiction by sheer willpower and self discipline. Alcoholics have a term for somebody that thinks they can do it on their own, "drunk". Controlling an addiction starts not when you decide to control it, but when you decide to ask for help controlling it. It takes a lot of work, and a lot of help, because the nature of the disease is that it affects your judgement. A huge part of controlling an addiction is trusting other people to help you, mostly by telling you when you need to step back listen.

The parallels between diabetes and addiction are very strong. In each case the problem is not what you injest, the problem is the dramatic difference in the way your body reacts to what you injest. That beer that you drink to unwind, for an addict, it has a completely different effect. That little bit of alcohol might as well lobotomize them, for the way it changes their whole bodys chemistry. It is ludicrous and incredibibly bigoted to assume that an addict has the same level of choice over injesting alcohol or a drug as somebody who is not suscebtible to addiction.

We are not going to agree on this. I am done with this thread.

You said that in post 21 too. And yet here we are.

Bernal, it is statistically likely that one of your kids will fall prey to an addiction of some kind. Once you come face to face with how involuntary the cravings are, and how somebody in that situation desperately needs help in fighting the disease your opinions may change.

But you know, honestly i hope you don't have to learn about this disease the hard way.

I know many people with substance addictions, and many people who deal with it professionally. I have been dealing extensively with people with substance abuse problems all of my life.

All this time I have not heard of a single person that got cured by deciding to quit the stuff and having the willpower to do it.

Uh, do you not see the problem in those statements? Of course people who deal with substance abuse problems professionally don't encounter those addicts who get cured by deciding to quit. People in the latter group don't need professional help.

In any case, your statement is quite silly. You've never heard of a smoker deciding to quit? Scores of millions of them did, in the United States alone.

Actually that is cheating, because technically an addiction is never "cured" it is just controlled.

That is an ideological statement, not a scientific one.

Secondly I have not heard of a single person that succesfully controlled their addiction by sheer willpower and self discipline. Alcoholics have a term for somebody that thinks they can do it on their own, "drunk".

Well...I have almost 8 years under my former belts and I'm flying solo with no trouble, although...one more full season of Waldling and I might be doomed!

David, you also do not know whereof you speak. The people i am talking about are scientists, as well as people in the legal system, and what i am taliking about is what all the scientific research says, as well as what anybody who deals with people whose addiction has affected others enough to throw them into the legal system.

So no it is not an ideological statement, it is a scientific one.

And care to hazard a guess what percentage of those smokers take up smoking again.

And care to hazard a guess what percentage of those smokers take up smoking again.

Not that it matters, but I've quit smoking 3 times now. I haven't restarted after the third time, but it doesn't mean that I won't. I certainly hope that I remain smoke free.

Well...I have almost 8 years under my former belts and I'm flying solo with no trouble, although...one more full season of Waldling and I might be doomed!

Hey, man... Sidney Ponson spent more time sober in the '90s than I did :P

My dad quit smoking cold turkey about ten years ago, after smoking a pack to two packs a day for 30+ years. FWIW.

It was as simple as him going in for a checkup, seeing an x-ray of what the smoking had done, and deciding right then to quit.

Quitting cigarettes, although hard, is a hell of a lot easier than quitting heroin though. Or so I would imagine.

Quitting cigarettes, although hard, is a hell of a lot easier than quitting heroin though. Or so I would imagine.

Two members of my immediate family have been respectively trying to quit each of the aforementioned substances for quite some time now. The one addicted to heroin is having a much easier time staying clean than the one addicted to cigarettes. (Of course, the heroin addict has a little more motivation to quit.)

It's just one anecdote, but I attended a lecture by a renowned addiction specialist who said that in his work with real hardcore addicts, addicted to all kinds of hard drugs, almost all of them agreed that the hardest one to quit was nicotine.

I think that might be because a lot of people just don't think that cancer will happen to them or think 'So maybe a lose a year or two off my life and die at 76 instead of 78. So what'

I guess the fact that it's so easily available is another reason.

David, you also do not know whereof you speak. The people i am talking about are scientists, as well as people in the legal system, and what i am taliking about is what all the scientific research says, as well as what anybody who deals with people whose addiction has affected others enough to throw them into the legal system.

That's exactly my point. You're looking at a biased sample. It's like asking people who work in a morgue about whether one can survive a bullet wound. The people that morgue workers encounter are the ones who didn't; of course they think that bullet wounds are always fatal. People "in the legal system" do not encounter people who were addicts and then said, "You know what? This is bad for me. I'm quitting." They encounter the ones who didn't. That tells us precisely nothing about whether there are people who did.

So no it is not an ideological statement, it is a scientific one.

No, it isn't. Care to tell me what the scientific test for "unable to quit without treatment" is? Show me the "scientific research" which says "addiction can't be cured." (Indeed, care to tell me the scientific test for whether addiction has been "cured," or even a scientific definition for "cured"?)

Quitting cigarettes, although hard, is a hell of a lot easier than quitting heroin though. Or so I would imagine.

Actually, on several measures of addictiveness, nicotine scores higher than heroin.

of course they think that bullet wounds are always fatal.

Wait? What? This is a terrible analogy, because I don't believe that morgue workers think that getting shot means you will always die because of that shot.

Wait? What? This is a terrible analogy, because I don't believe that morgue workers think that getting shot means you will always die because of that shot.

Well, not literally, no. I'm sure people who work in morgues encounter the phenomenon of people being shot in a non-professional context as well. I'm sure they see news stories about people being shot and not being killed. But people who are drug abusers rarely publicize it, so the ones that get noticed are the ones who can't handle it and end up in the drug treatment industry. Which is where people who work in said industry encounter them.

I think this is true. Sometimes we find out about the ones who could physically and mentally handle it to a great enough degree that we probably wouldn't have found out if they hadn't been pro atheletes or actors or such things. Look at Dwight Gooden, for example. He never came close to dying from cocaine use, and it wasn't cocaine that made him a drunkard. How about Michael Jackson? We've seen what the coke did to his nose, but has it affected his health in any other way? There must be thousands of these hardy souls who are just regular guys we never suspect.

Early eighties MLBers are a great example, actually. Half of them took cocaine regularly, and most of them are still alive.

Which is where people who work in said industry encounter them.

Exactly... definitely a sampling bias problem. A lot of the same arguments are similar to depression... although people think you can classify person X as a depressed person and person Y as not being depressed, in fact there is a continuum with overlap. In other words, there are some very depressed people who don't get help and some mildly depressed people who probably could get by without the professional help, but in general the people who are seeking the professional help are the ones who are pretty badly off.

I feel the same way about addiction. I have alcoholics up one branch of the family tree and former drug addicts up the other side. At the age of 16/17, I decided that I would never drink or take drugs because it was too much of a risk that I wouldn't be able to control my usage (due to my Type A, OC-ish type personality that manifests itself in insanely long BBTF posts). It has not been easy and there is an incredible amount of pressure to resist. I've never had a drink, never smoked a cigarette, and never taken a recreational drug, but I've had lots of people ride me for not doing it. "C'mon, of course you could control it." "Aren't you ever curious?" "One little drink won't hurt." And these are people who I consider my closest friends and family and people who I don't even know.

I think many people are basically too unforgiving when it comes to understanding addiction and how hard it can be for other people, but that people who are addicted are really just too weak to change.

And care to hazard a guess what percentage of those smokers take up smoking again.

If that percentage is ANYTHING other than exactly 100, then this statement:

All this time I have not heard of a single person that got cured by deciding to quit the stuff and having the willpower to do it.

is false.

Tom Greybalt (and his Ferrari) - What degree do you have and in what field? I'm sure you have some kind of clinical experience but, with all due respect, the statements you made above sound more like the AA model of addiction than the scientific model.