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Friday, December 29, 2006

MLBlogs: Wally Joyner: A Legitimate Hall-of-Famer

Is Wally Joyner cuter than Colin Farrell?

By my count, Joyner was deserving of 3 MVP awards during his career, a total that would put him among all-time greats. Only 8 players have ever been awarded 3 MVP awards: Mike Schmidt, Jimmie Foxx, Stan Musial, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella, Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Barry Bonds. Statistically, these guys are truly some the best the game has ever seen. To put him in that group, deservedly, speaks volumes on Joyner’s value to his teams.

...For me, this is no longer about whether Wally Joyner should be a Hall-of-Famer. That’s a given. For me this raises a bigger question, one that might have been unfathomable before viewing the evidence:

Wally Joyner: The Best 1st Baseman Ever?

Repoz Posted: December 29, 2006 at 03:19 AM | 60 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame

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   1. Tom Poquette Posted: December 29, 2006 at 03:39 AM (#2270559)
So who's the blogger? Wally's wife or one of his kids?

Good stuff...can't wait until JT Snow's six years are up so we can read a plea from his homeboys.
   2. Too Much Coffee Man Posted: December 29, 2006 at 03:39 AM (#2270560)
pass
   3. Kolmo Posted: December 29, 2006 at 03:45 AM (#2270562)
Is this some kind of joke?
   4. Hurdle's Heroes (SuperBaes) Posted: December 29, 2006 at 03:47 AM (#2270564)
Mike Schmidt, Jimmie Foxx, Stan Musial, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella, Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, and Barry Bonds

Pretty good company for Mr. Bonds. Why does everyone keep hammering him?
   5. jingoist Posted: December 29, 2006 at 03:52 AM (#2270569)
I think the author of this blog probably has a small shrine erected in his basement to Mr. WallyWorld.
The blogger is showing his "manlove" for Wally; unless, as Tom suggests above, its his wife or one of his kids.
Its probably Wally's agent who is trying vainly to get Wally back into the limelight after all these years.
Grace before Joyner; age before beauty.
   6. SABRJoe Posted: December 29, 2006 at 03:53 AM (#2270570)
Either this is the worst piece of factual writing ever or the best piece of satirical writing ever. I'm not sure which one it is.

Wasn't it Joyner who admitted to trying steroids in a pill form one time? They should not let him in the Hall of Fame. And they should take away his children (even if one did write that blog article.)
   7. Xander Posted: December 29, 2006 at 03:55 AM (#2270571)
For me, this is no longer about whether Wally Joyner should be a Hall-of-Famer. That's a given. For me this raises a bigger question, one that might have been unfathomable before viewing the evidence:

Wally Joyner: The Best 1st Baseman Ever?

Seriously.

Awesome.
   8. Rafael Bellylard: A failure of the waist. Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:18 AM (#2270587)
You can't make this #### up.
   9. Xander Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:25 AM (#2270593)
Wasn't it Joyner who admitted to trying steroids in a pill form one time? They should not let him in the Hall of Fame. And they should take away his children (even if one did write that blog article.)

Oh, it's addressed:
Some might argue, however, that Joyner's admission in a late 2005 issue of ESPN The Magazine that he took 3 steroid pills during Spring Training 1998 soils Joyner's previously spotless record. The reasons that Joyner took the pills were not directly stated, but it was implied that Joyner took them to help combat the injuries that had plagued too much of his career. He also deeply regretted having ever resorted to such desperate measures, flushing the rest of the pills down the toilet and telling his friend, Ken Caminiti (His supplier), "They're just not for me."

I don't think, given the circumstances, this truly soils Joyner's record. To go out and tell a major publication that you took steroids, however briefly, only a year before you're eligible to be voted into the Hall of Fame, demostrates outstanding integrity. Besides, simply confessing puts him well ahead of most suspected steroid users, who seem more content to play a game of cat-and-mouse than anything else.

This reads like an onion article.
   10. Xander Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:27 AM (#2270596)
Christ, let me post the rest of that section. It's pricless:
As for the actual cheating? Well, it was in Spring Training, and probably wore off, given that Joyner only hit 12 home runs that year. Joyner certainly wasn't taking steroids to cheat, but only for medical reasons; and, of course, steroids are used relatively frequently in hospitals for, you guessed it, medical reasons. That doesn't make what he did right, but there's certainly a fine line between Wally Joyner and, say, Jose Canseco.

And it's not like Joyner's not sorry about the whole thing.

Oh, and for those that believe Joyner took steroids in 1987 when he hit 34 home runs, if it was killing him to take 3 steroid pills in Spring Training, I doubt he'd be able to keep going for an entire year.

All in all, it seems like Joyner was quite concerned about truth and integrity and decided to give ESPN The Magazine the facts, when almost no one else would. Given that we all make mistakes, I can't really fault Joyner after all his corrective measures.

Grade- Integrity, Sportsmanship, and Character: A+
   11. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:28 AM (#2270598)
I am in the proccess of convincing myself this is a joke, and a pretty good one.
   12. Darren Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:32 AM (#2270599)
And like Joe Schlabotnik, he made a spectacular catch on a routine flyball!
   13. DCW3 Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:35 AM (#2270601)
Come on, there's no way this isn't a joke.
   14. Andere Richtingen Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:37 AM (#2270603)
Well, I still think he deserved Rookie of the Year over Canseco.
   15. Guapo Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:40 AM (#2270605)
Given Caminiti's troubled life, I don't think he just happened to take steroids that year. I'm not trying to say Joyner made him take steroids, but rather that Caminiti was inspired by Joyner's presence to boost his numbers. They were close friends.

This actually made me laugh out loud.

I don't think it's for real.
   16. DCW3 Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:42 AM (#2270608)
Well, I still think he deserved Rookie of the Year over Canseco.

Joyner was better than Canseco, but Mark Eichhorn was many times better than either.
   17. Dr. Vaux Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:42 AM (#2270610)
All the steroids in the world wouldn't help me hit 12 home runs. Actually, it would probably kill me, but that's beside the point...
   18. Dr Love Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:44 AM (#2270611)
There's a thin line between genius and insanity.
   19. DCW3 Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:46 AM (#2270613)
All the steroids in the world wouldn't help me hit 12 home runs. Actually, it would probably kill me, but that's beside the point...

This scenario is just crying out for a controlled experiment.
   20. BDC Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:51 AM (#2270618)
He hit for average, but usually not high average


Hell, you could say that about Bob Buhl.
   21. cardsfanboy Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:58 AM (#2270626)
I know this has to be a farce, but I'm just going to examine a few arguments.

his first Wally Joyner has more hits than 40 hof position players, career wise the guy 100th on the career hit list has 2405, there are 34 players above him not in the hof.

Wally Joyner's career home run total of 204 is higher than that of 34 Hall of Fame position baseball reference goes to 317 hrs career wise, 63 non-hof'ers are ahead of him.

Wally Joyner's career RBI (Runs Batted In) total of 1,106 is higher than that of 31 Hall of Fame baseball reference goes to 1284 there are 40 non-hofers on that list ahead of him.

Wally Joyner's career 2B (Double) total of 409 is higher than that of 74 Hall of Fame position bb-reference goes to 435, there are 43 non-hofers on that list.

Wally Joyner's career batting average of .289 is higher than that of 41 Hall of Fame position sorry this is just too much of a gap between the 100th best guy to compare.(100th best batting average is .3108)

By my estimation, about 90% of all Hall of Fame position players were mentioned above at least once, and some of these players rank in the Top 5 of their respective positions among all-time players

there are 102 players on his list don't know the number of position players in the hof. Sorry I tried to take this seriously but when claiming mattingly is probably the best defensive first baseman of all time and that joyner was arguably better just made me have to quit reading. (using fielding percentage to judge defense?)
   22. Gonfalon B. Posted: December 29, 2006 at 05:28 AM (#2270649)
Wally Joyner: started more All-Star Games than Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Honus Wagner, and Teddy Roosevelt COMBINED.
   23. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: December 29, 2006 at 05:29 AM (#2270650)
cardsfanboy vs. wallyfanboy is awesome.
   24. Halofan Posted: December 29, 2006 at 05:31 AM (#2270652)
He may have pumped life into Angels baseball in the 80s but he didn't save it.
   25. DCW3 Posted: December 29, 2006 at 05:39 AM (#2270659)
Joyner's 8th-place MVP finish in 1986 is actually one of the odder MVP votes of recent decades: how many times in history has a first baseman finished in the top ten in MVP voting without finishing in the top ten in any notable statistical category? Joyner wasn't among the league leaders in batting average, home runs, RBI, OBP, SLG...nothin'. The only category where he was in the top ten was sac flies. I suppose the voters figured that they had to reward somebody on the Angels for their first-place finish, and the team didn't have any position players with MVP-type numbers, but it's still an unusual choice. (Brian Downing, who was probably the team's best non-pitcher, didn't show up on a single ballot.)
   26. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 29, 2006 at 05:57 AM (#2270669)
This is hilarious...

It's been left unmentioned how Joe Morgan achieved his effect, and the answer, I think, lies in speed and power.

Joyner, for the most part, had neither.


Using a quote from the back of a baseball card as one of your main sources is classic. One of the best pieces of satirical writing I've ever read...
   27. CraigK Posted: December 29, 2006 at 06:27 AM (#2270679)
Hell, I'm having fun hitting the "random" button on BB-Ref and filling it in for them.

The 1990's were an era of giants, statistically a true Golden Age in baseball. Yet through it all, there was Archie Cianfrocco, a giant among giants.

***

What makes a Hall-of-Famer? That's a question for which there is no definitive answer. Some look at the milestones--like, say, 3,000 hits or 300 wins--in order to make their particular Hall of Fame decisions. That has legitimate basis--a player that puts up the biggest stats is often Hall of Fame worthy--but really is a blunt instrument that doesn't give you a feel for the player, or is necessarily particularly accurate--for example, there are multiple pitchers on the 300-save club who aren't particularly deserving of enshrinement (The same may may apply to steroid users who've achieved 500 career home runs).

A more accurate measuring stick is a player's dominance at a position over an extended period of time. That, of course, leads to inspired debates over the meaning of dominance, and one really must look at an incredible multitude of factors--like, say, the general performance of the league--before one can even join in these debates.

I hope I didn't bore you with that expanation, but I had to make sure everyone was on the same page.

This blog entry hopes to prove that not only is Archie Cianfrocco a legitimate Hall-of-Famer, but also that he was, at least, one of the most dominant first basemen of the '90's, and, perhaps, something more...
   28. Too Much Coffee Man Posted: December 29, 2006 at 06:30 AM (#2270682)
I don't think it is satire, I think he's serious.
Deranged, but serious
   29. cardsfanboy Posted: December 29, 2006 at 06:52 AM (#2270686)
Using a quote from the back of a baseball card as one of your main sources is classic. One of the best pieces of satirical writing I've ever read...

I thought that was pretty awesome too, meant to say something about that but kinda forgot.
   30. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: December 29, 2006 at 06:57 AM (#2270687)
I like Wally Joyner
   31. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: December 29, 2006 at 07:21 AM (#2270691)
In his rookie season, (1986) Joyner arrival led to a sudden increase in winning percentage from the previous year, from .556...to .568 and a division title.


That's the point in the article when I knew it was a joke.
   32. Repoz Posted: December 29, 2006 at 07:34 AM (#2270699)
In the comments section...MLB/HOF voter Mark (Sheldon or Bowman...I'm not sure) has this rejoyner...

Welcome to the MLBlogosphere! Glad to have you with us and looking forward to your posts. We'll get you added to the Rookies section on mlblogs.com.

With regards to this issue, you've obviously made a very thorough argument for him. I'm a lifetime voter and although I don't say who I vote for, I can tell you that there wasn't enough there in this career to be inducted. I'd put my former high school opponent Donnie Baseball on the ballot easily before Wally, but unfortunately Mattingly didn't have the lasting power in his career due to his back.

And my first criteria overwhelmingly is always whether he dominated at his craft over an era. It helps keep it all about true Hall of Famers. With all respect to your well-reasoned post, you should be able to tell a Hall of Famer in one sentence; if they require a long argument from every angle, then they are probably candidates for the local team's own Hall of Fame. But you did Wally proud and he was fun to watch.

Have fun blogging!

Mark/MLB.com
   33. Tom Poquette Posted: December 29, 2006 at 07:35 AM (#2270703)
I'll grant Wally one thing...he was a key part of the greatest Royals teams since the 80's. Brings back some great memories of Vince Coleman, Jason Jacome, Chris Haney and David Howard; man what a team that was. how they couldn't win a title is beyond my understanding.
   34. Kyle S Posted: December 29, 2006 at 07:50 AM (#2270712)
I'm convinced.
   35. Johnny Grubb Posted: December 29, 2006 at 07:50 AM (#2270713)
This is what tipped me off to the satirical nature, particularly the bolded portion:

Wally Joyner was something of the epitome of a good baseball character. He was described all around, by teammates and writers alike, as truly a great guy and a guy who gave baseball 100%. I think he also gave money to charities.

   36. Tom (and his broom) Posted: December 29, 2006 at 07:52 AM (#2270716)
DCW,

if you look at Joyner's first half/second half splits the votes make more sense. Wally had a dominant first half and was hyped as "the star" even though he contributed almost nothing in the second half. I think his HR split(20 before/2 after) is one of the biggest for a player with loads of playing time in both halves.
   37. Kyle S Posted: December 29, 2006 at 07:54 AM (#2270717)
By the way - try to figure out which two years he "should" have won the MVP other than 1987. It's pretty challenging.
   38. jwb Posted: December 29, 2006 at 08:18 AM (#2270725)
Of course this is a delicious fanboy parody! Rod Carew and Tommy John were the biggest stars on the '85 Angels? The 1B with the 99 OPS+ and the pitchers with 38 IP? Wally Joyner was just like Joe Morgan, except that Joe Morgan was really, really good? Wally should have won three MVPs, although he got votes in only two and finished in the top ten once, and even that is rather inexplicable? The number of hoops he had to jump through to be "better" than Hall of Famers? Well, 204 HRs isn't really very many for a 1B, but it's more than most middle infielders or lead off guys. . . and hey! he's got more 2Bs than Ernie!

If I had the time, I would

1) figure out which HOFers best him in all of the listed categories, and

2) figure out how well his B-Ref comps do by similar comparisons
(FACT: Dusty Baker hit more HRs than Luis Aparicio, Luke Appling, Lou Boudreau, and Branch Rickey. . . COMBINED! If that's not a Hall of Famer. . .)
   39. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: December 29, 2006 at 02:54 PM (#2270787)
Satire works better with a straighter face.
   40. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: December 29, 2006 at 02:54 PM (#2270788)
And with a point.
   41. The District Attorney Posted: December 29, 2006 at 03:03 PM (#2270794)
Hmm? It's got such a straight face that half these folks seem to think it's real, and the point is to parody the various flawed arguments that people make for HOF candidates.
   42. Sexy Lizard Posted: December 29, 2006 at 03:48 PM (#2270812)
This blog entry hopes to prove that not only is Archi Cianfrocco a legitimate Hall-of-Famer, but also that he was, at least, one of the most dominant first basemen of the '90's, and, perhaps, something more...

Cianfrocco won two batting titles in World Series '98 on my Sega Saturn. Babe Ruth can't say that.
   43. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:11 PM (#2270818)
Hmm? It's got such a straight face that half these folks seem to think it's real, and the point is to parody the various flawed arguments that people make for HOF candidates.

YMMV. I oughtn't say what I really think, anyway.
   44. Dan Szymborski Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:26 PM (#2270828)
Hmm? It's got such a straight face that half these folks seem to think it's real, and the point is to parody the various flawed arguments that people make for HOF candidates.

You'd be surprised how stupid some people are - I've heard dumber arguments on the level. There was a guy on usenet who would flip out if you argued that Mookie Wilson shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. There was another guy on usenet who would angrily flame you if you suggested Brady Anderson wasn't a Hall of Famer - he'd even bring in his sockpuppet accounts to back him up.
   45. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 29, 2006 at 05:25 PM (#2270855)
How do we know Wally didn't do steroids? We don't. Therefore, Bret Saberhagen will not accept enshrinement.
   46. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: December 29, 2006 at 05:29 PM (#2270858)
Mookie Wilson and Wally Joyner belong in the Hall of Fame. The Name Hall of Fame.
   47. Mushmouth Posted: December 29, 2006 at 08:32 PM (#2270975)
If it's satire, why Wally Joyner? I'd like to see somebody pull this off with Omar Moreno.

Or Mookie Wilson.
   48. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 29, 2006 at 08:41 PM (#2270989)
Mookie Wilson and Wally Joyner belong in the Hall of Fame. The Name Hall of Fame.

In that case, Archi Cianfracco is definitely a HOFer.
   49. Gonfalon B. Posted: December 29, 2006 at 08:52 PM (#2271002)
Heathcliff Slocumb, your podium awaits!
   50. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: December 30, 2006 at 03:29 AM (#2271207)
And like Joe Schlabotnik, he made a spectacular catch on a routine flyball!

And he threw out a runner who fell down between first and second!

I smell Cooperstown!
   51. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 30, 2006 at 03:40 AM (#2271213)
There was another guy on usenet who would angrily flame you if you suggested Brady Anderson wasn't a Hall of Famer - he'd even bring in his sockpuppet accounts to back him up.

I've been flamed over beer. On a baseball website. People are crazy.

And the first person that suggests Rich Garces isn't inner-circle HoF is going down.
   52. Cowboy Popup Posted: December 30, 2006 at 04:35 AM (#2271231)
"And the first person that suggests Rich Garces isn't inner-circle HoF is going down."

Rich Garces couldn't fit in the inner circle.
   53. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 30, 2006 at 05:00 AM (#2271251)
Rich Garces couldn't fit in the inner circle.

I don't think my brothers & I were the only people on the earth who took to calling him "Fat" Garces. Sure, not as creative as "El Guapo", but much more accurate.

By the way, I'm trying to figure out a way to remotely ruin your life, on the off chance that what you said is an indicator that you don't believe he belongs in the Hall of Fame.
   54. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 30, 2006 at 05:11 AM (#2271256)
I'm surprised anyone thought this was serious.
   55. Dr Love Posted: December 30, 2006 at 05:25 AM (#2271261)
I don't think my brothers & I were the only people on the earth who took to calling him "Fat" Garces. Sure, not as creative as "El Guapo", but much more accurate.

We always called him "Beached Whale."
   56. cardsfanboy Posted: December 30, 2006 at 05:33 AM (#2271265)
I'm surprised anyone thought this was serious.

considering that there were people that seriously considered Andruw Jones for MVP two seasons ago, that Rafael Palmiero won a gold glove, that Jack Morris is hof worthy, so it's not far from the most ridiculous things I've read in recent memory.
   57. Srul Itza At Home Posted: December 30, 2006 at 06:58 AM (#2271287)
This is what tipped me off to the satirical nature, particularly the bolded portion

I'm sorry, but anybody who did not realize this was a hack by the end of the second sentence in the article --

"The 1990's were an era of giants, statistically a true Golden Age in baseball. Yet through it all, there was Wally Joyner, a giant among giants"
--

needs to think seriously about their gullibity/credulity factor. The first step would be to stop replying to those e-mails about the millions of dollars being held in the account of the exiled Nigerian Oil Minister.
   58. Dan Szymborski Posted: December 31, 2006 at 01:32 AM (#2271526)
Do you know who's harmed by those African leader mone scams? Actual exiled African leaders. If I'm an exiled Nigerian Oil Minister that needs help now getting my millions of dollars out of my secret bank accounts, the internet has been absolutely removed from me as a source of assistance.
   59. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: January 01, 2007 at 12:18 PM (#2271969)
Well, I'll tell you this: Wally's my favorite player of all time. He was a damn good player (obviously not HoF or anywhere close in the least) and a class act. And he's the last bastion of an era where I was still young enough to identify a favorite player.

The Angels still haven't filled his shoes at first base, and haven't come close. Hell, Wally might be closer to being a HoFer than the Angels have been to getting as much production out of the 1B slot as they did under his reign.
   60. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: January 01, 2007 at 03:34 PM (#2271974)
I've been flamed over beer. On a baseball website. People are crazy.

I've been flamed for suggesting that ROM the Spaceknight wasn't a successful comic book character.

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