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Wednesday, July 11, 2012

MLBPA considering filing grievance against Tribe

The Wham of That Soon-To-Be-Columbus Man.

The Major League Baseball Players Association is considering filing a grievance over the Indians’ handling of injured reliever Nick Hagadone, who was placed on the Minor League disqualified list on Sunday.

...Following his last outing for Cleveland on Friday against the Rays, Hagadone suffered what Antonetti described as a “self-inflicted” injury to his pitching hand. After being pulled from the game, in which he allowed two runs in two-thirds of an inning, Hagadone reacted in anger.

...Weiner said Hagadone’s injury could be considered “work-related” in the MLBPA’s eyes.

“There is a long standing precedent in baseball,” Weiner said, “and arbitration precedent going back to Doyle Alexander, a great player and a great union member, saying that baseball is a very intense game. And if a player, in the intensity of the moment, makes a mistake and whams his hand against the dugout or a door or does something else, that’s a work-related injury. That’s part of the game.

“Clubs want players to compete, to compete very hard, and sometimes those emotions come out. No player is proud of the fact that he injured himself in that kind of situation. But Nick is not the first player this year, and certainly not the first player in baseball history, who unfortunately suffered that kind of injury.”

Repoz Posted: July 11, 2012 at 08:21 AM | 29 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: indians

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   1. Bruce Markusen Posted: July 11, 2012 at 08:31 AM (#4179884)
Doyle Alexander, a great player? First time I've heard that.
   2. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 11, 2012 at 08:35 AM (#4179885)
I don't think it's out of line to call someone who won 194 games in the major leagues a great player. YMMV, I guess.

Weiner may be technically correct, but I personally can't see that the Indians are unreasonable to discourage players from getting pissed and attacking inanimate objects, or punish those who insist on doing so.
   3. Dan Lee is some pumkins Posted: July 11, 2012 at 08:41 AM (#4179888)
I've got a video clip somewhere that didn't actually air, but was recorded during a commercial break of a Reds-Braves game. Ryan Dempster has just been pulled and is losing his mind in the dugout, attacking the water cooler.

If you listen closely, you can hear Skip Caray mutter under his breath, "Make better pitches and you wouldn't have that problem." That's what I would hope the Indians tell Hagadone.
   4. Walt Davis Posted: July 11, 2012 at 08:46 AM (#4179893)
An interesting philosophical dilemma perhaps but I'm pretty sure it's clear you can't send an injured guy down then put him on the minor league DL.
   5. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 11, 2012 at 08:48 AM (#4179895)
Agreed, Walt, but had they simply suspended him without sending him down I'm pretty sure the MLBPA would be grievancing that, too.
   6. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 11, 2012 at 09:05 AM (#4179904)
So....what did Doyle Alexander do? And what does this have to do with Frank Tanana?
   7. Dan Lee is some pumkins Posted: July 11, 2012 at 09:11 AM (#4179909)
The tricky thing here is that Hagadone almost certainly would have been sent down anyway. He's been horrific over the past month or so: 5.2 IP, 12 runs, 14 hits, 8 walks, 3 homers, 19.06 ERA since June 13.

What should/could they have done? If they put him on the MLB disabled list, he ends up making tens of thousands of dollars specifically because he injured himself punching something. That seems just as wrong as putting him on the suspended list or demoting him and putting him on the MiLB disabled list.
   8. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 11, 2012 at 09:18 AM (#4179917)
Well, they've been paying him for months to pitch. Injuring himself is the most valuable thing he's done for them all year, so why shouldn't they pay him for that?
   9. villageidiom Posted: July 11, 2012 at 09:40 AM (#4179932)
“There is a long standing precedent in baseball,” Weiner said, “and arbitration precedent going back to Doyle Alexander, a great player and a great union member, saying that baseball is a very intense game. And if a player, in the intensity of the moment, makes a mistake and whams his hand against the dugout or a door or does something else, that’s a work-related injury. That’s part of the game.
Clearly the Indians are negligent in not providing their players with things to punch in anger that won't result in injury. If all they have are walls and doors and glass and such, of course they're going to get injured.

Alternatively, the MLBPA has had the opportunity in each CBA to negotiate for safer conditions like padded dugout walls and doors made at the Build-A-Bear Workshop. That they didn't shows that they do not consider the onus to be on the teams to make sure players don't hurt themselves when they can't control their emotions.
   10. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 11, 2012 at 09:49 AM (#4179942)
I really did enjoy Weiner working praise for Doyle Alexander in there like a race car driver listing off his sponsors in the winners' circle. What's he owe Alexander?
   11. Bruce Markusen Posted: July 11, 2012 at 09:57 AM (#4179949)
Back in the eighties, Alexander made a terrible start for the Yankees and then, after being removed from the game, slammed his hand into either a wall or a water fountain. He ended up breaking his hand and had to go on the DL, but he continued to draw his salary.
   12. OCD SS Posted: July 11, 2012 at 09:58 AM (#4179951)
When Kevin Brown injured his pitching hand by punching something (when he was with the Yankees) didn't he go on the DL, and receive his full salary?

From the PA's pov, the issue is that there is longstanding precedent that when a player is injured and has options, he cannot be optioned to the minors and then DL'd just to save the team money. That the injury was self inflicted is not really material, although it does make the case seem much more superficial. If he'd hurt his hand doing something stupid like trying to barehand a come-backer would this really be an issue?
   13. Ron J2 Posted: July 11, 2012 at 10:19 AM (#4179967)
Clearly the Indians are negligent in not providing their players with things to punch in anger that won't result in injury.


Or in not hiring Crash Davis. One assumes he also covers what to punch (and using the non-pitching hand)
   14. Ravecc Posted: July 11, 2012 at 10:53 AM (#4180007)
Of a more recent precedent, when Frankie Rodriguez broke his hand punching his father-in-law after a loss, the Mets suspended him, then placed him on the disqualified list, docked his remaining salary (about $3.1m), and attempted to convert his contract to non-guaranteed status. MLBPA filed a grievance.

To settle the matter, the Mets pocketed the $3.1m and Frankie’s contract remained guaranteed.
   15. puck Posted: July 11, 2012 at 11:07 AM (#4180031)
Didn't Randy Johnson break his hand when he was with the Expos (or in its minor league system)?
   16. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 11, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4180033)
Didn't Randy Johnson break his hand when he was with the Expos (or in its minor league system)?


He obviously broke his face. Again & again & again.
   17. boteman Posted: July 11, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4180049)
I think one Mr. Jeffrey Loria will be watching the outcome of this grievance proceeding.
   18. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 11, 2012 at 11:38 AM (#4180058)
He obviously broke his face. Again & again & again.

Those were just mirrors.
   19. aleskel Posted: July 11, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4180078)
When Kevin Brown injured his pitching hand by punching something (when he was with the Yankees) didn't he go on the DL, and receive his full salary

My memory of it is that the incident was late in the season, and Brown skipped a few starts but didn't go on the DL, and came back to pitch in the playoffs (of course, he still sucked).
   20. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 11, 2012 at 12:04 PM (#4180089)
In 2008, Troy Tulowitzki - in the midst of a horrible slump - got pulled from a game, causing him to slam a bat into the rack so hard it shattered, and a shard of it cut his palm, landing him on the DL. No one ever suggested he shouldn't get paid.
   21. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 11, 2012 at 12:07 PM (#4180093)
Did the Knicks continue to pay Amare Stoudamire after he beat up a fire extinguisher?
   22. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 11, 2012 at 12:15 PM (#4180104)
In 2008, Troy Tulowitzki - in the midst of a horrible slump - got pulled from a game, causing him to slam a bat into the rack so hard it shattered, and a shard of it cut his palm, landing him on the DL. No one ever suggested he shouldn't get paid.


In cases like that the team is probably happy for the excuse to put the guy on the DL, give him time to clear his head. You'd think that would be the case with the Indians and Hagadone now, though. It really does seem like they were just trying to save a few thousand bucks.
   23. JL Posted: July 11, 2012 at 12:21 PM (#4180114)
In 2008, Troy Tulowitzki - in the midst of a horrible slump - got pulled from a game, causing him to slam a bat into the rack so hard it shattered, and a shard of it cut his palm, landing him on the DL. No one ever suggested he shouldn't get paid.

Reminds me of the Jimmy Johnson school of coaching - when the third string linebacker falls asleep during film, he gets cut. When Troy, Michael or Emmitt does it, Jimmy gets them a pillow.
   24. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 11, 2012 at 12:25 PM (#4180120)
Stars and turds, as Sparky Anderson put it before Jimmy got there. It's pretty much the way the world works.
   25. Dan Lee is some pumkins Posted: July 11, 2012 at 12:35 PM (#4180138)
Did the Knicks continue to pay Amare Stoudamire after he beat up a fire extinguisher?
The season was pretty much over at that point.
   26. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 11, 2012 at 12:50 PM (#4180150)
The tricky thing here is that Hagadone almost certainly would have been sent down anyway.


This is where I suspect the arguments will lie.
   27. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 11, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4180154)
Oliver Perez broke a toe kicking a laundry cart in the clubhouse, while he was with the Pirates.
   28. Walt Davis Posted: July 11, 2012 at 06:34 PM (#4180536)
Agreed, Walt, but had they simply suspended him without sending him down I'm pretty sure the MLBPA would be grievancing that, too.

No doubt but that's the philosophical argument.

As others note, there's plenty of precedent for self-injury still leading to standard DL. The K-Rod case is obviously a special one -- not only the assault aspect but the "not in game conditions" aspect. Still, even when ("star") players engage in behavior forbidden in their contracts (e.g. truck-washing), the team doesn't press its case.

As to Hagadone sucking then having a well-timed injury, it's not the first time and I'm pretty sure this one has been hashed out before in the Union's favor. If the guy gets hurt while on the 25-man roster, he goes on the ML DL.

However, I note a major boo-boo on my part. The excerpt actually says he went on the minor league _disqualified_ list, not the disabled list. That makes it sound like the Indians are going the suspension route AND the demote while injured route. I'm not sure there's a difference between the mL and ML disqualified lists.

Anyway, the union pretty much has to file a grievance here. They have precedent on their side and if they allow it here they won't have much of a case when a team tries to do it to a star.
   29. Chicago Joe Posted: July 11, 2012 at 07:50 PM (#4180592)
Headline made me think it was the Sioux or Lawrence.

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