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Thursday, July 12, 2012

Mooney: As Epstein reshapes Cubs, Barney hopes to be building block

Okay, so young Barney Aaron he ain’t.

Barney has laughed when he’s seen his name on MLBTradeRumors.com. He doesn’t exactly grind out at-bats (.304 on-base percentage), or hit for power (.666 OPS), but he’s an elite defender at second base and a potential team leader.

“It’s very hard to feel comfortable in this game,” Barney said. “I feel like I’ve underachieved in my production offensively. I feel like I can be better.

“I’m pleased with the way I’ve played defensively, but in no way am I pleased with the results of the team. That’s what it’s all about. Coming into this year, I really, really thought we were going to contend, and I think we all feel (that) we’ve underachieved. There’s a lot of work to do.”

...Factor in the diving plays to his left and his right and the sprints into the outfield, the Cubs should feel good up the middle for years to come with Castro and Barney.   

“The defense he’s had all season long has been incredible,” Sveum said. “It’s hard to believe that there’s been a better second baseman in baseball defensively than Barney.

“(This is) a guy that goes out there every single day to try to be a Gold Glover.”

Repoz Posted: July 12, 2012 at 09:00 PM | 44 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cubs

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   1. Walt Davis Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:28 PM (#4181464)
Shiftiness aside, he's a good defender. With that bat, that makes him the poor man's Mark Ellis -- OK, a very poor man's Mark Ellis. So make it an average man's Mark Grudzielanek. He can be league-average or a bit above at a low price. (Note, even if you gave him league average defense this year, he still grades out as league average overall -- he's actually got mildly positive oWAR this year which is a bit scary.)

Still if somebody wanted to give us something of real value for him, I'd trade him in a second.
   2. Andere Richtingen Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:34 PM (#4181471)
There have been many excellent teams with a 2B worse than Darwin Barney. That said, 2B is definitely labeled an "upgrade as opportunity arises" position, and Barney is not someone you hold onto through the arb years unless you really have to. The fact that he seems to have a good attitude is certainly a plus.
   3. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:46 PM (#4181504)
Note, even if you gave him league average defense this year, he still grades out as league average overall -- he's actually got mildly positive oWAR this year which is a bit scary.)

I'm not buying it. WAR is giving him 4 runs above average on the bases even though he has just 5 stolen bases. In 1986 Rickey Henderson stole 87 bases and that according to WAR was worth 12 runs. Apparently going 5-0 on SB is worth a third of the value of going 87-18 on the basepath.
   4. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:47 PM (#4181505)
If somebody wants to give the Cubs virtually anything decent for Barney I say do it and do it yesterday. He doesn't have a bat and he never had one.
   5. silhouetted by the sea Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:57 PM (#4181512)
Plus, they will throw in a left fielder cheap.
   6. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: July 13, 2012 at 12:12 AM (#4181518)
Plus, they will throw in a left fielder cheap.


Unless their secret plan was to move Soriano to 2B
   7. Walt Davis Posted: July 13, 2012 at 12:27 AM (#4181528)
Well, there's more to baserunning than SBs. But take away his 4 baserunning runs (and all of his defense) and he goes from 1 run above average to 3 runs below average and whoop de doo.

Barney was dead average last year with 1 Rbaser, 1 Rdp and 2 Rfield. Give him his 4 Rbaser this year or 0 Rbaser but 4 Rfield or 2 of each or ... and he's dead average this year.

   8. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: July 13, 2012 at 01:31 AM (#4181545)
Well, I'm not sure why anything about WAR should be trusted at this point.

Anyway, in 1986 Rickey Henderson took the extra base 59% of the time. So far this year Barney has taken the XB 38% of the time. Rickey took 30 bases on all the various gaffes and events in 1986. Barney has taken 9. Rickey had 26 outs on base to Barney's zero. Rickey in 1986 took a total of 151 bases between steals, gaffes, events, and taking the extra base as compared to 26 outs on the basepath. Barney this year has taken 26 bases with no outs so far.

Rickey Henderson 12 RBaser
Darwin Barney 4 RBaser
   9. Boxkutter Posted: July 13, 2012 at 02:51 AM (#4181559)
Coming into this year, I really, really thought we were going to contend,


I have to doubt the baseball intelligence of any man who thought this team was going to contend.
   10. James Newburg is in awe of Cespedes' CORE STRENGTH Posted: July 13, 2012 at 03:02 AM (#4181560)
For the sake of argument, let's get Barney up to 12 RBaser by tripling his baserunning stats this year (78 bases taken, no outs). Relative to Rickey Henderson in 1986, this implies that Rickey's additional 73 bases and 26 outs that year had no extra run value. I'm not sure what the break-even point is for success in all baserunning events, but 75% does not strike me as an unreasonable estimate.
   11. Hack Wilson Posted: July 13, 2012 at 08:34 AM (#4181608)
Coming into this year, I really, really thought we were going to contend


I saw this week the pilot for a new TV series called, I think, Perception, in which Cub fans are called delusional. The quote above is NOT delusional, it is, to use the scientific term, looney
   12. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 13, 2012 at 08:51 AM (#4181611)
Anyway, in 1986 Rickey Henderson took the extra base 59% of the time. So far this year Barney has taken the XB 38% of the time. Rickey took 30 bases on all the various gaffes and events in 1986. Barney has taken 9. Rickey had 26 outs on base to Barney's zero. Rickey in 1986 took a total of 151 bases between steals, gaffes, events, and taking the extra base as compared to 26 outs on the basepath. Barney this year has taken 26 bases with no outs so far.
+26 bases with no outs made should get you in the range of runs above average, shouldn't it? That seems exactly right. I don't see any problem at all with that math for Barney.

I don't know how well Rickey's numbers add up, but your problem was with Barney. If he's taken those extra bases and never made an out, B-R seems to have him pegged pretty well. You'd expect a guy who plays everyday for 80 games to have several OOB. His big baserunning number clearly comes from not making any outs on the bases.
   13. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: July 13, 2012 at 09:00 AM (#4181612)
In what world does it even occur to someone to compare Rickey to Darwin Barney?
   14. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: July 13, 2012 at 09:48 AM (#4181647)
Tony Campana +43 bases, 3 outs, +6 runs.
   15. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 13, 2012 at 09:50 AM (#4181648)
Is that supposed to be completely irreconcilable with Barney's numbers? I don't see how that doesn't pass the smell test.

If +26 bases = ~4 runs, then why wouldn't +17 bases - 3 outs ~= 2 runs?
   16. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: July 13, 2012 at 10:34 AM (#4181708)
So how much value is a base then? .2 runs? .1? Is a base really worth roughly .15 runs and an out worth roughly .3 runs?
   17. zonk Posted: July 13, 2012 at 10:39 AM (#4181715)
So long as he's cheap, I see no reason to shop him - but I concur that I'd certainly listen to offers for Barney.

If it cost Barney as a toss-in with a Dempster/Garza deal to say, the Tigers, to get, say... a Turner or Castellanos, I'd pull that trigger.

I don't think I'd trade Barney straight-up for a lottery ticket though, and standalone, I'm not sure he brings back much more than that.
   18. villageidiom Posted: July 13, 2012 at 10:49 AM (#4181728)
If +26 bases = ~4 runs, then why wouldn't +17 bases - 3 outs ~= 2 runs?
If +26 bases = ~4 runs, then +13 bases = ~2 runs, same as Campana. That would mean Campana's 4 extra bases and 3 extra outs are a wash. That's a 57% break-even rate.

Given the small volume, that's not statistically different from a "true" upper-60s (or even, if you want to use Rickey's numbers, 75%) break-even rate. Yeah, it's still generally consistent.

If the question is whether Barney has provided value on the bases in 2012, to the extent that his actions are correctly encapsulated in his numbers, yes he has. If the question is whether he should be expected to do that generally (say, for someone trading for him), his numbers in 2012 don't tell us that.
   19. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: July 13, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4181822)
So long as he's cheap, I see no reason to shop him


I think the benefit of shopping him now is that the return will be greater in part because he is cheap. If the Cubs don't think he is going to be a part of the next championship team, there is probably a benefit to moving him now when his value is probably highest.

The problem is this is a bit of Billy Beane style "win the trade" rather than "win games." The difference is that the Cubs should have the financial ability and commitment to retain whatever they get in return for Barney which should offset that a bit.
   20. Sean Forman Posted: July 13, 2012 at 01:09 PM (#4181853)
Baserunning runs is explained in excruciating detail here. Please read it before commenting because everyone here has the details wrong.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained_position.shtml

It is not bases added times runs/base - outs times runs/out.

For non SB/CS
It is bases added compared to lg avg given opps times runs/base and outs compared to lg avg given opps times runs/base.
+-----------+-------+-----------+-----------+----------+--------+
player_ID start bases     outs      Runs     onbase |
+-----------+-------+-----------+-----------+----------+--------+
barneda01 1st   |  1.587844 | -1.052435 0.735638 |     91 |
barneda01 2nd   |  5.018333 | -0.657339 1.264788 |     68 |
barneda01 3rd   |  4.190181 | -0.665397 1.102359 |     45 |
campato01 1st   |  5.491520 |  0.390129 0.943329 |     63 |
campato01 2nd   | -0.204793 | -0.471765 0.146445 |     56 |
campato01 3rd   |  3.479734 | -0.689288 0.969760 |     38 |
+-----------+-------+-----------+-----------+----------+--------+ 


SB and CS are handled separately.
   21. Slivers of Maranville (SdeB) Posted: July 13, 2012 at 01:09 PM (#4181854)
I thought the contntion statement assumed that the Cubs signed Pujols, Ramirez, Wilson, and a bunch of other pieces.
   22. Brian C Posted: July 13, 2012 at 02:01 PM (#4181871)
If it cost Barney as a toss-in with a Dempster/Garza deal to say, the Tigers, to get, say... a Turner or Castellanos, I'd pull that trigger.

I don't think I'd trade Barney straight-up for a lottery ticket though, and standalone, I'm not sure he brings back much more than that.

I don't have a real opinion on those two prospects, but in general terms I think I basically agree with this.

There's been no bigger Barney detractor than me, but he is what he is at this point, in that it's abundantly clear that none of the other 2B options in the organization are seen as viable replacements by the front office. And while Junior Lake isn't embarrassing himself in AA, his ETA still looks like 2014.

So, short of getting some genuine high upside player(s) in return in a trade, I don't see any urgency to move Barney. If he keeps up this level of play (not unlikely), he'll be worth just as much in a trade next year as he is now, and maybe more.
   23. villageidiom Posted: July 13, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4181884)
It is not bases added times runs/base - outs times runs/out.
I can't speak definitively for others, but I think we were doing something similar to the "wrong" way as more of a sanity check than a precise recalculation. If one thinks the break-even for baserunning is around 66%, as has been the saber-wisdom for a little while on SB, then we should see ballpark-similar results with direct comparisons. And we are, generally.
   24. TomH Posted: July 13, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4181889)
sorry for the hi-jack, but you gotta go on the ESPN mlb page and see that at the moment, they are saying the Cubs game is being delayed by snow.
   25. Gern Blanston Posted: July 13, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4181907)
sorry for the hi-jack, but you gotta go on the ESPN mlb page and see that at the moment, they are saying the Cubs game is being delayed by snow.
Well, it's only about 60 degrees above freezing, so it's certainly plausible.
   26. Gern Blanston Posted: July 13, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4181909)
And just as I type that post, I hear a rumble of thunder.
   27. villageidiom Posted: July 13, 2012 at 03:50 PM (#4181923)
sorry for the hi-jack, but you gotta go on the ESPN mlb page and see that at the moment, they are saying the Cubs game is being delayed by snow.

Oh, say can you see
A licky boom boom down...
   28. Meatwads stronger now, ready for the house Posted: July 13, 2012 at 05:11 PM (#4181964)
My employee told me about that one of those wtf moments, it's 90 outside
   29. Walt Davis Posted: July 13, 2012 at 07:29 PM (#4182036)
Maybe the Cubs went on a coke binge last night.
   30. Walt Davis Posted: July 13, 2012 at 07:34 PM (#4182045)
Can we start the MVP! MVP! chants now?
   31. BDC Posted: July 13, 2012 at 07:54 PM (#4182065)
Maybe JT Snow is running berserk on the field.
   32. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: July 13, 2012 at 08:30 PM (#4182080)
Darren Baker must be a teenager by now. He's back for revenge against the guy who prevented him from scoring in the biggest game of his life.
   33. Ron J Posted: July 14, 2012 at 12:37 AM (#4182276)
#23 The thing is that 2/3 for base stealing was something that came from Pete Palmer's work. And it's close enough in an 80s context. And it's for stealing second.

Base running is much more complex. The break even on going first to third is quite a bit higher (and baserunning credit is not in simply going to third. As with DPs you have to adjust for opportunity -- it's much easier to go first to third on a single to right than one to left even though the value of the base and the cost of any outs are the same)
   34. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: July 14, 2012 at 12:46 AM (#4182279)
Alfonso's OPS jumped 43 points in a single game today. It was his 80th game of the year!
   35. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: July 14, 2012 at 09:35 AM (#4182341)
Alfonso's OPS jumped 43 points in a single game today. It was his 80th game of the year!


I wish there was a way my team could acquire a player of such quality!
   36. SoSH U at work Posted: July 14, 2012 at 10:43 AM (#4182364)
I wish there was a way my team could acquire a player of such quality!


Hell no. That's the kind of player you want to build a club around. I smell an extension.

   37. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 14, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4182433)
for what it is worth i had an exchange this morning with a guy within baseball who said soriano is looked at with a lot of hesitation, setting aside contract, because he is perceived as being motivated by getting out of chicago and that once he is out will regress significantly.

that sounds to me like folks looking for reasons to not like a guy

but i wanted to share that feedback

   38. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 14, 2012 at 03:08 PM (#4182445)
jay cutler has an, um, interesting singing voice.
   39. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 14, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4182462)
which team will score a run against ryan dempster?

32 innings now without giving up a run.
   40. The District Attorney Posted: July 14, 2012 at 03:57 PM (#4182469)
that sounds to me like folks looking for reasons to not like a guy
Well, Soriano has been a well-known MLB figure for over a decade so if insiders are "looking for reasons to not like" him, that itself is significant.
   41. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 14, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4182472)
32 innings now without giving up a run.

It's at 33 innings and counting now that he left the mound for the day. That's a 1.86 ERA on the season. The .241 BABIP doesn't hurt but he's still pitching well enough to hold a K/BB over 3.
   42. SouthSideRyan Posted: July 14, 2012 at 04:14 PM (#4182476)
that sounds to me like folks looking for reasons to not like a guy


Yep, doesn't add up to me. As we've discussed previously, motivation and effort haven't been Soriano's issues. He's been old and hurt.
   43. Brian C Posted: July 14, 2012 at 06:06 PM (#4182541)
Motivation and effort aside, I think the bottom line is that the analysis is correct, and that he probably will regress before too long. As noted, he's old and hurt, and he's having his best season in years. That's not really a recipe for long term success, and whoever takes him is saddled with another two years. Even if the Cubs are willing to put up his full salary, how much would is a guy like that really worth in a deal?
   44. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: July 14, 2012 at 08:29 PM (#4182632)
Even if the Cubs are willing to put up his full salary,

If the Cubs are looking for another Anthony Rizzo is probably isn't goig to happen. But if all a team has to do is give a B level prospect or two and get Alfonso for 15 million over three years or so I'd think a team would be silly not to go for it. At 5 million a year Alfonso will either be a great bargain starter or a good to great 4th OF'er.

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