Now Kershaw, 23, is coming off his first NL Cy Young Award. He won 21 games and became the first Dodger to claim the pitching Triple Crown since Sandy Koufax. There are those who believe he soon will be the best pitcher in baseball — if he isn’t already.
But that’s subjective. Here’s a fact: Kershaw has more wins (47) than Maddux (45) at the same point in his career.
Maddux acknowledges Kershaw has a chance to win 300 games — at least, as much of a chance as anyone his age could.
...Kershaw’s chances at 300 could be aided by working in one of baseball’s great pitcher-friendly ballparks — and playing on a Dodgers team that should become stronger after the ownership transition. Maddux, though, doesn’t put much stock in such things.
“Park, offense, defense — that has jack s—- to do with it,” he said. “It’s about how you pitch. I don’t buy into that. Steve Carlton was on the worst team in the world (and still won 27 games). … It’s how you pitch. The pitcher makes the team. If you outpitch the other guy, you win. You’ve got to be better than the guy you’re facing.”
Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum might beg to differ. They are several years older than Kershaw but aren’t far ahead of him in wins — each has 69 — because the San Francisco hitters have offered modest run support. They’ll have their chances to slow Kershaw’s progress toward 300 when they face him this year. But they may need to pitch like Maddux to do it.
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1. Best Regards, L.M. Posted: March 01, 2012 at 05:43 PM (#4072187)FWIW, Lincecum's "problem" doesn't appear to have been run support so much as Kershaw having a 3-year head start age wise. Of course Kershaw won almost as many games last season as he had in the previous 3 years, and the Dodger's offense doesn't strike me as exactly world-class at this point, so he's going to need luck not regressing back to the 13-15 win range even while pitching well.
Player ages are computed as their age on June 30th
Source: B-R PI
Player ages are computed as their age on June 30th
Source: B-R PI
But this: "Kershaw’s chances at 300 could be aided by working in one of baseball’s great pitcher-friendly ballparks" is nonsense. One of the teams wins each game played in Wrigley, too.
Well, the implied there is that in a pitcher's environment, he could go longer into games and have a better chance of securing a decision. I don't know if that's true (I mean, it's true at the extremes. Pitch a complete game and you're getting a decision. Leave in the 1st at 0-0 you'll get none), but I've heard it bandied about.
EDIT: Roughly the same thing as post #8.
Yeah, it stands to reason that it can be a tiny edge. You can go a little longer, plus a lower run environment means the bullpen is less likely to cough up the lead. I don't imagine it can amount to more than a handful of wins over the course of a career.
Should be easy enough to study. Did Astros starting pitchers in the 70s get more decisions than average/Rockies pitchers in the aughts get fewer?
Player ages are computed as their age on June 30th
Rk Player L From To Age G GS CG SHO GF W W-L% SV IP H R ER BB SO ERA ERA+ HR BF HBP1 Pete Schneider 86 1914 1919 18-23 207 157 84 10 36 59 .407 4 1274.0 1199 541 377 498 487 2.66 102 16 5365 52
2 Walter Johnson 78 1907 1911 19-23 175 157 135 26 17 82 .513 4 1355.1 1095 433 267 303 915 1.77 148 11 5309 49
3 Bert Blyleven 75 1970 1974 19-23 181 178 77 21 2 80 .516 0 1335.2 1197 462 406 319 1094 2.74 134 90 5429 35
4 Earl Hamilton 73 1911 1915 19-23 183 130 79 11 34 54 .425 5 1150.1 1084 524 379 407 469 2.97 102 18 4698 44
5 Johnny Lush 72 1904 1909 18-23 146 130 92 15 14 52 .419 1 1014.0 934 455 289 343 436 2.57 98 11 4239 56
6 Red Ruffing 71 1924 1928 19-23 150 103 54 4 35 30 .297 7 854.0 914 489 426 335 327 4.49 94 29 3732 24
7 Catfish Hunter 64 1965 1969 19-23 171 149 41 12 4 55 .462 1 1050.1 911 444 402 348 703 3.44 94 117 4330 15
8 Larry Dierker 62 1964 1970 17-23 181 168 60 9 5 71 .534 1 1250.1 1119 506 443 353 874 3.19 108 101 5153 20
9 Hal Newhouser 61 1939 1944 18-23 184 130 59 9 41 63 .508 8 1003.0 882 448 360 544 633 3.23 122 31 4355 6
10 Mike McCormick 59 1956 1962 17-23 224 150 45 12 35 59 .500 8 1087.0 1066 514 456 373 646 3.78 99 118 4615 11
11 Christy Mathewson 59 1901 1904 20-23 168 159 136 20 9 97 .622 3 1354.2 1161 505 332 352 864 2.21 139 17 5442 37
12 Bullet Joe Bush 58 1912 1916 19-23 143 91 53 11 41 52 .473 5 846.2 756 384 311 370 439 3.31 84 11 3482 20
13 Lee Meadows 57 1915 1918 20-23 163 122 55 6 32 48 .457 5 964.0 922 419 321 353 373 3.00 90 14 4033 33
14 Mel Harder 56 1928 1933 18-23 192 107 47 3 50 55 .495 8 943.2 1053 522 412 312 298 3.93 118 42 4176 19
15 Dick Ellsworth 55 1958 1963 18-23 143 129 38 5 5 48 .466 1 865.0 851 383 343 275 483 3.57 109 72 3639 13
16 Pedro Ramos 55 1955 1958 20-23 168 94 24 6 42 43 .439 8 772.1 827 421 390 261 311 4.54 86 117 3362 26
17 Don Drysdale 54 1956 1960 19-23 188 142 47 14 29 66 .550 4 1071.1 957 424 382 329 822 3.21 128 100 4462 52
18 Camilo Pascual 54 1954 1957 20-23 159 73 16 2 51 20 .270 8 612.2 646 375 347 296 417 5.10 77 56 2744 21
19 Bob Feller 54 1936 1941 17-22 205 175 117 16 24 107 .665 10 1448.1 1149 569 512 815 1233 3.18 137 59 6191 26
20 Chief Bender 54 1903 1907 19-23 169 127 109 14 39 76 .585 6 1160.1 992 473 346 296 689 2.68 103 18 4613 51
21 George Mullin 54 1902 1904 21-23 121 110 98 13 10 49 .476 2 963.0 911 437 288 332 409 2.69 111 9 4001 25
22 Jeremy Bonderman 53 2003 2006 20-23 129 123 6 2 0 45 .459 0 749.0 774 424 393 252 623 4.72 93 86 3224 21
23 Jim Shaw 51 1913 1917 19-23 148 90 42 10 41 39 .433 7 775.2 627 307 243 393 418 2.82 99 7 3164 14
24 Joe Coleman 50 1965 1970 18-23 143 123 36 7 6 43 .462 1 850.1 793 381 332 297 561 3.51 94 75 3590 31
25 Bob Friend 50 1951 1954 20-23 136 89 21 4 19 28 .359 2 675.2 756 399 346 267 255 4.61 91 61 2991 7
Now that I think about it further....hurry, somone put this discussion thread in the time vault for future reference so whoever of us is still alive and still a btf fan can pipe up and say "I told people hat would happen back in '12, and here's the proof of my priesence"
Ruffing with Boston: 39-96
with New York: 231-137
Not only that, but he went 9-22 the next year.
How many pitchers from the present generation even have 107 starts by the time they're 22? To state the obbious, the game has changed a lot, and Bob Feller was a pretty good pitcher.
I thought the chart in post 4 was interesting in that these young pitchers with big win totals were fairly well distributed over the history of baseball.
Here's the total based on decade of debut:
1900s: 7
1910s: 9
1920s: 4
1930s: 5
1940s: 2 (likely affected by the War)
1950s: 4
1960s: 8
1970s: 4
1980s: 3
1990s: 1
2000s: 3
I suppose there's a downward trend line there, and the '60s and '90s really stand out. But for all the talk about "We'll never see another 300-game winner," it seems that the numbers of pitchers getting good head starts has been pretty consistent since the 1920s.
Felix had 103. Or 104 if you add better than I do.
Felix is tops since 1990. CC had 96, Avery had 90, Porcello & Bonderman 89 and Kershaw 83. Bumgarner is at 52 through age 21.
Feller had 175 starts by age 22, 148 from ages 19-22. He then went off to war for almost a full 4 years to save his arm.
Well, yes, but some won 300 in fewer than 21. Maddux had 305 after 19 seasons. Clemens had 310 after 20. Carlton had 300 after 19, and one of those seasons was 25 IP. Spahn won 309 games between 1946 and 1961, 16 seasons. He was 0-0 in 15 IP in 1942 before going off to war.
But Maddux and Carlton, like Seaver, reached 300 in their 19th seasons.
That is all.
Through Season 20, 1947-2011:
Through Season 21, 1947-2011:
Through Season 22, 1947-2011:
Through Season 23, 1947-2011:
Through Season 24, 1947-2011:
You joke, but it's interesting to speculate on what Feller's career would've looked like if not for the war. Almost 4 full seasons off, after throwing over 1,200 innings from ages 19-22. He might've stayed healthy, and blown past 300 wins, but is it implausible to think he might not've had a HOF career if he'd actually pitched full time during those seasons? (Course, if he'd lasted just a couple years, he'd have had a HOF peak anyway, even if his career got cut short.)
Regardless, color me amazed with the workload he withstood during those years.
Bill James once wrote an interesting essay that discussed Ruffing along the lines of, "How did this guy bring down the level of bad staffs/teams (his W% in Boston was worse than the team's) and then bring up the level of historically good staffs/teams (obviously in NY)? He went in thinking it was a run-support thing, but it turned out to go way deeper - he was genuinely worse than his lousy teammates and then better than his outstanding teammates (as a group - I'm sure some jack-hole would object that he wasn't better than ALL his Yankee teammates).
Turns out there were a lot of guys on the 1930's-50's Yankees that he thought were simply a product of great support, but upon further inspection were truly, markedly, and suddenly better while in NY than they were in other places.
Not having to face the Yankees would be a bigger boost for him than for a high standard deviation pitcher.
Sisler, Kelly, and the pre-frozen head of Teddy Williams too.
Rk Player WAR ERA+ IP Year Tm Lg G CG W L1 Roger Clemens 7.9 169 254.0 1986 BOS AL 33 10 24 4
2 Frank Tanana 7.7 154 241.1 1977 CAL AL 31 20 15 9
3 Herb Score 7.6 166 249.1 1956 CLE AL 35 16 20 9
4 Mike Mussina 7.4 157 241.0 1992 BAL AL 32 8 18 5
'5 Clayton Kershaw 6.9 163 233.1 2011 LAD NL 33 5 21 5'
6 John Candelaria 6.8 169 230.2 1977 PIT NL 33 6 20 5
7 Fausto Carmona 6.6 148 215.0 2007 CLE AL 32 2 19 8
8 Dontrelle Willis 6.4 152 236.1 2005 FLA NL 34 7 22 10
9 Willie Mitchell 6.0 159 217.0 1913 CLE AL 35 14 14 8
10 Felix Hernandez 5.8 172 238.2 2009 SEA AL 34 2 19 5
11 Carlos Zambrano 5.5 160 209.2 2004 CHC NL 31 1 16 8
12 Jair Jurrjens 5.3 159 215.0 2009 ATL NL 34 0 14 10
YMMV
Did you check that 2%-3% figure against the quality of the pitcher? I'll bet a guy capable of 300 wins gets left in for a lot of those close pinch-hitting decisions. I'll bet there were a bunch of games where a 300 win-caliber pitcher gets left in when his team is leading 2-1 or 3-2 in the 7th or 8th, one out, man on first, he comes to the plate and gets left in because he's one of the best pitchers in baseball. In that case your 2-3% figure might be closer to 1%.
Oddly this doesn't really seem to be the case or at least when I've looked for it, I haven't found much evidence.
2011 AL: 98 pit/GS; 6.1 IP/GS (b-r doesn't give more decimals)
2011 NL: 96 pit/GS; 6.0 IP/GS (given just 2 pit/GS looks like rounding, especially since you should be able to get through more batters in the same number of pitches)
2010 AL: 98 pit/GS; 6.1 IP/GS
2010 NL: 96 pit/GS; 5.9 IP/GS (WTF?)
2009 AL: 96/5.8
2009 NL: 95/5.8
Anyway, on average, the AL guys are getting pulled 2 pitches later which I guess is half a PA. So call it 15 more batters per year or about 4 innings. I guess that's a half-decision or something per year.
I'm more flummoxed why the same number of pitches gets you through as many or more innings in the AL -- intentional walks to the #8 batter in the NL?
Not sure which you or Fancy Pants meant to do but you increased his decision rate by 2.5 percentage points not his total decisions by 2.5%. Increase his decisions by 2.5% and it's about 14 more decisions. 14 more decisions is closer to my guesstimate applied to Maddux which would be about 12 (.5 decisions per 30 gs) so obviously 14 is closer to the truth. :-)
Now, higher scoring equals higher variance so I wonder if there's a positive relationship between high variance and starter decision rates (at least these days).
Again according to JPWF13 the decision rate for the great pitchers of the 1990s was 1 per 8.88 IP and that's a pretty normal number (notwithstanding Mussina being in the group)
2011 AL: 58534 BF 2268 GS = 25.81 BF/GS
2011 NL: 66010 BF 2590 GS = 25.49 BF/GS
2010 AL: 58589 BF 2268 GS = 25.83 BF/GS
2010 NL: 65540 BF 2592 GS = 25.29 BF/GS
2009 AL: 57140 BF 2270 GS = 25.17 BF/GS
2009 NL: 64699 BF 2590 GS = 24.98 BF/GS
No. The "long story short" consisted of me, bbrefs league splits pages, and 5 mins with a calculator.
You missed a key part of my hypothesis though. The in close games part is important. NL pitchers aren't lifted early in games they are winning comfortably, where they have a decision locked up. Potentially, they might actually go deeper in those games than AL starters, because of facing pitchers, lower scoring etc.
AL starters get pulled just as early in games where they are getting shelled, and are heading for a loss.
So, if the difference comes largely in close games, it is going to affect the decision rate more than it would if they were randomly distributed. To put it in perspective, 2 pitches a game over a full season, is about 2.5 innings for a SP. Is it really hard to believe that an extra 2.5 innings in close and late situations could result in 1 extra decision a year? That would more than cover the difference...
Huh. No, going from 78.6% decision rate to 81.1% I get 600.5 decisions, an extra 18.5, at Maddux's career W% that's an extra 11.3 wins. Now Maddux's decision rate is well above average, so there is a legitimate question, if the increase would translate as well at those heights. It might also not be safe to assume career W%, if most of the decisions lost are of the close and late type. That would probably move it closer to 50%.
While this is true, I'd expect that a lot of AL pitchers who'd have been pinch-hit for if it was the NL get their extra innings by pitching partial innings in the next inning -- that is, I would expect more AL pitching changes are mid-inning. And of course as a starter, pitching a partial inning doesn't increase your chance of getting a decision.
It does. It just doesn't increase your chance of getting a 'W' (well, unless you have a horrific pen, that will blow your 'W' for you...).
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