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Wednesday, September 14, 2011

Moviefone: ‘Moneyball’ Writer Michael Lewis Reviews Keith Law’s ‘Moneyball’ Pan

Why don’t you just tell me the name of the movie you selected?

“Billy [Beane] called me and said Keith Law had sent him his review. I looked at it and I thought, What’s he talking about?” Lewis told Moviefone earlier on Wednesday. “It’s very weird that he’s on this. He’s intellectually dishonest, and I don’t know to what purpose.”

In his review, Law comes down hard on what the film cites as “Bill James bullsh-t” (James was the father of sabermetrics, the statical engine that drove Beane during the time period depicted in ‘Moneyball’), but Lewis says that wasn’t always the case.

“I don’t understand why he goes from being—when I interviewed Keith Law, and I did, at length—he was so nasty about scouts and scouting culture and the stupidity of baseball insiders. He was the reductio ad absurdum of the person who was the smarty pants who had been brought into the game and was smarter than everybody else. He alienated people. And now he’s casting himself as someone who sees the value of the old school. I can’t see where this is all heading and why. But I learned from experience that the best thing to do is ignore it, because it goes away.”

Check back to Moviefone next week for more with author Michael Lewis about ‘Moneyball.’ The film hits theaters on Sept. 23.

JE (Jason) Posted: September 14, 2011 at 10:43 PM | 282 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   201. DA Baracus Posted: September 15, 2011 at 09:53 PM (#3926245)
How can anyone know if a movie stinks if you don't see it?


That's a fair point, but this whole thing started with "who cares if it sucks." We all do. Otherwise go see Bucky Larson: Born to be a Star instead of, I don't know, anything that isn't that movie.

if someone one day finally makes that 18 hour mini-series on the August 1914 Diplomatic Crisis


But that leaves so much on the cutting room floor!
   202. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 09:56 PM (#3926247)
Personal interest raises the odds I'm willing to run that a movie sucks. If I somehow knew 100% before going in that a movie was going to suck, then yeah I'd probably avoid it no matter what it was about.

Agreed. For a typical movie, I too would want to be relatively sure it's good. But if it's a topic I have a weakness for (Star Trek, superheroes, baseball), or if it's from a director I really like, or whatever, I'm more likely to risk it.

This doesn't always work in my favor; I am ashamed to admit that I paid full price to see Daredevil. Life is risk.
   203. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 10:02 PM (#3926254)
From today's KLaw chat:


Jason (St Louis)
Are there any movies you have actually walked out of? The only time I've seen that happen was during the first jackass movie.
Klaw(1:43 PM)
Unforgiven - more or less right after the guy soils himself. Then again, I'm not a big westerns guy
   204. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 10:03 PM (#3926256)
[166] wins the thread, thanks Dan. I tried to express the same sentiment on RLYW yesterday but did not do it as well.
   205. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 10:05 PM (#3926257)
From today's KLaw chat:

Must've been some chat. Did anyone ask him what term he uses for little people?
   206. Swedish Chef Posted: September 15, 2011 at 10:07 PM (#3926258)
Amazon's recommendation engine works really well IMO.

It is inordinately fond of trying to push crackpot books on me, good thing that the crackpot code requires putting "Ph.D" after the author name, so they can be dismissed quickly.
   207.     Hey Gurl Posted: September 15, 2011 at 10:09 PM (#3926259)
Re: Community. I watched the first two seasons and didn't hate it, but I don't think I laughed even once. I started watching season 3 and then kind of realized what I was doing and thought "Why am I watching this?" Meh.
   208. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 10:10 PM (#3926261)
Must've been some chat. Did anyone ask him what term he uses for little people?


I believe he uses "Midga!".
   209. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: September 15, 2011 at 10:48 PM (#3926279)
Re: Community. I watched the first two seasons and didn't hate it, but I don't think I laughed even once. I started watching season 3 and then kind of realized what I was doing and thought "Why am I watching this?" Meh.

Not sure we're talking about the same show. Season 3 premier is a week from today.
   210. Banta Posted: September 15, 2011 at 10:56 PM (#3926284)
Thanks, 209. I was just about to check the episode guide to make sure that I didn't miss anything.
   211. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 11:23 PM (#3926309)
Do you guys pay attention to nothing I ever say? I haven't kept it a secret...


I've had it since it came out, hopeless Legion fanatic that I am (with Archives editions standing in for most of the Silver Age appearances, though I do own a couple of dozen late-'60s Adventures that allowed me to skip 2 volumes, I own every damned comic with the Legion in it as of about 5 months ago -- 600+ individual issues, last time I counted), but had no idea of your connection with it.

I gather you wrote the piece on the Waid three-boot, & I'll have to re-read it. Unlike a lot of longtime fans, I really, really liked that version, all the way to issue #49. (Shame about #50, of course.)
   212. Daunte Vicknabbit! Posted: September 15, 2011 at 11:47 PM (#3926330)
If you're interested in movie suggestions I'd recommend Criticker, which I know at least one other BBTFer is an even bigger fan of than myself. Basically you rate movies on a 1-100 scale, although what you choose to set as your upper bar doesn't really matter. You can review 1-10. Anyways the program puts your movie grades into a 10 tier scale, then finds other users who have movies in similar tiers and movies they've reviewed and enjoyed that you haven't reviewed. Certainly not flawless for a number of reasons (I have a difficult time putting a number on my movies, and I skew towards an exceptionally high rating average of probably 80) but it works well enough.
   213.     Hey Gurl Posted: September 16, 2011 at 12:07 AM (#3926367)

Not sure we're talking about the same show. Season 3 premier is a week from today.


We are; I misremembered. I'd watched season 1 in its entirety and bailed a few episodes into season 2.
   214. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 12:12 AM (#3926379)
I've had it since it came out, hopeless Legion fanatic that I am (with Archives editions standing in for most of the Silver Age appearances, though I do own a couple of dozen late-'60s Adventures that allowed me to skip 2 volumes, I own every damned comic with the Legion in it as of about 5 months ago -- 600+ individual issues, last time I counted), but had no idea of your connection with it.

Nice to see that there are more of us. I started reading the Legion during the Mike Grell days; my earliest Legion memory is the introduction of Tyroc, I think. I devoured everything Legion until the late 80's; I sort of bailed on comics for the most part at that point thanks to having a family, bills, etc.

I take it things have changed a bit since then. :) I'll have to start acquiring.
   215. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: September 16, 2011 at 12:21 AM (#3926402)
We are; I misremembered. I'd watched season 1 in its entirety and bailed a few episodes into season 2.

Ah, OK. I have to have a marathon watch because I haven't seen any of season 2 yet. But I had a ton of laugh-out-loud moments in season 1. Wasn't happy about the last 30 seconds of the season, though.
   216. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 12:35 AM (#3926436)
My first encounter with the Legion was a stray issue of Adventure (#374) about the time I turned 9, though not only a couple of years later, with #403's reprint of the "Death of Lightning Lad" saga, did the cast & concept really capture my imagination. The early Grell issues were when I became a regular reader, probably a year before that Tyroc intro.

I was out of comics for 25 years, beginning in 12/78, so even though I've since acquired all the comics, I've still got to catch up on just about everything from after that till the aforementioned Waid three-boot. The 2 series that've come out since then, in what was the revived Legion as well as the resurrected Adventure, were sort of hit-&-miss, especially (to my eyes) the former series, but wiser heads then me regard them as the bee's knees.

I'm paying no attention to this DC reboot claptrap, so I don't know what the plans for the Legion are (I only buy new comics at back-issue discounts through eBay or other online vendors these days, anyway), but it seems like I've heard noise about no less than 4 ongoings, in classic kneejerk DC/Marvel overkill style. (See also: Batman, X-whatever, Wolverine, Deadpool.)
   217. Matthew E Posted: September 16, 2011 at 01:05 AM (#3926472)
I gather you wrote the piece on the Waid three-boot, & I'll have to re-read it.


I had two chapters, actually; I wrote that one, and the one on diversity and evolution in the reboot Legion.

The Waid threeboot was, to me, the most intriguing version of the Legion. Not the best comics, although they were very good at their peak, but the ones where I was most interested in seeing where all this was going. (Unfortunately, they brought Jim Shooter back to show us all where it went; feh.) Now they've brought Paul Levitz back for the retroboot, and he's giving us comics that are respectably decent but, so far, not as adventurous.

I'm paying no attention to this DC reboot claptrap, so I don't know what the plans for the Legion are (I only buy new comics at back-issue discounts through eBay or other online vendors these days, anyway), but it seems like I've heard noise about no less than 4 ongoings, in classic kneejerk DC/Marvel overkill style.


Not exactly. There are two ongoings: Legion Lost, which started yesterday; it's about seven Legionnaires (Tyroc, Wildfire, Dawnstar, Timber Wolf, Tellus, Gates, and Chameleon Girl aka Yera) trapped on a disastrous mission to the present-day (written by ex-X-Men writer Fabian Nicieza); and Legion of Super-Heroes v7, first issue next week, which is Paul Levitz doing what he does.

Then there are also two limited series which start next month: one is Legion - Secret Origin, which is about the behind-the-scenes stuff we never heard about that was going on when the Legion was first formed; written by Paul Levitz. Comes with a plastic replica Legion flight ring. The other is not even published by DC; it's published by IDW, and it's a crossover between the Legion and Star Trek (the original crew). I'm looking forward to that one because it's written by Chris Roberson, and I've been interested in seeing what he could do with the Legion for quite a while. Both of these are five or six issues.

Anyway, the relaunch isn't supposed to affect Legion continuity hardly at all (which is quite a change for DC); the new series are supposed to continue on from LSHv6 and Adventure Comics seamlessly.

Unlike most Legion fans I'm not specifically attached to the Silver Age stuff; I liked the Levitz-Giffen run of the '80s just fine, but my real favourite eras are the early-'90s Five Years Later run and the early-'00s reboot Legion run by Abnett and Lanning.
   218. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 01:35 AM (#3926523)
Unlike most Legion fans I'm not specifically attached to the Silver Age stuff; I liked the Levitz-Giffen run of the '80s just fine, but my real favourite eras are the early-'90s Five Years Later run and the early-'00s reboot Legion run by Abnett and Lanning.


On the Comic Book Resources board -- the one place I hang out more than I do here, as it happens -- I'd say your choices of favorites are pretty much the majority view. As noted, I've barely had a chance to touch those, though I have to say it's unlikely that they'll approach my regard for the Silver Age stuff (as befits my advanced age & corresponding get-off-my-spinner-rack nature, of course).
   219. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: September 16, 2011 at 02:13 AM (#3926580)
Ah, OK. I have to have a marathon watch because I haven't seen any of season 2 yet. But I had a ton of laugh-out-loud moments in season 1. Wasn't happy about the last 30 seconds of the season, though.

Nor was I.
Also season 2 starts a little slow - stick with it (if you liked season one).
   220. Matthew E Posted: September 16, 2011 at 02:16 AM (#3926584)
On the Comic Book Resources board -- the one place I hang out more than I do here, as it happens -- I'd say your choices of favorites are pretty much the majority view. As noted, I've barely had a chance to touch those, though I have to say it's unlikely that they'll approach my regard for the Silver Age stuff (as befits my advanced age & corresponding get-off-my-spinner-rack nature, of course).


Are you gef on there too? I just went and searched the DC Universe forums for that name; we've actually conversed about the Legion at least once on there, if that's you.
   221. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 02:28 AM (#3926589)
Nope -- 99 percent of my posts appear in the Classics forum, under the name dan bailey, taken from the sidekick of the protagonist in Little Rock lawyer Griffin Stockley's series of mystery novels in the '90s (as well as my birth certificate).
   222. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: September 16, 2011 at 02:36 AM (#3926597)
According to IMDB Greg Goosen, yes that one, had a small role in "Unforgiven."
   223. Dale Sams Posted: September 16, 2011 at 02:46 AM (#3926607)
AIEEEEE i missed an LSH thread???

Jim Shooter: Second best fanboy writer in history after Geoff Johns.

Paul Levitz: Horribly overrated, I know that's an unpopular opinion.

And back in the day, I'll bet DC was thrilled that they launched two pristine paper books for LSH and Teen Titans, only for Keith Giffen to completly change his art style, and for George Perez to completly burn out.

Little comic-book story: One week I tracked down Marv Wolfman's e-mail to ask him if his Vigilante series was inspired by anything that had happened to him personally. His complete response one week later. "No."
   224. Matthew E Posted: September 16, 2011 at 02:56 AM (#3926615)
Jim Shooter: Second best fanboy writer in history after Geoff Johns.


Ah, come on. I think you have to give it to Roy Thomas. I have all kinds of time for Roy Thomas.

(But then I'm skeptical of Geoff Johns. Always have been. No matter how many of his comics I enjoy.)
   225. Dale Sams Posted: September 16, 2011 at 03:03 AM (#3926622)
Roy Thomas definitly is up there. Especially with his Justice League and All-Star Squadron run.

I was about to blast his run on LSH, but looked up the books I was thinking of and saw it was Conway. Thomas's LSH books were fine.
   226. Something Other Posted: September 16, 2011 at 03:08 AM (#3926624)
(In fact at a certain point I began to wonder if Pitt and Jonah Hill, who plays stat-freak assistant GM Peter Brand, were ever even on set together.)
Which may have been the case. I remember in Heat, De Niro and Pacino "shared" screentime for all of six minutes, and the director used them in a two-shot for all of twelve seconds. Weird choice in such a key scene.

I've just started watching 127 Hours, and Boyle's inability to hold a shot for three seconds, the screaming soundtrack, and the jitterbugging camera are all incredibly amateurish. I'm surprised it's this bad. Is it worth sticking with?
   227.     Hey Gurl Posted: September 16, 2011 at 03:09 AM (#3926626)
I've spent the last 2 hours on Criticker when I was planning to go to the gym...thanks guys.
   228. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 03:10 AM (#3926627)
And back in the day, I'll bet DC was thrilled that they launched two pristine paper books for LSH and Teen Titans, only for Keith Giffen to completly change his art style, and for George Perez to completly burn out.


I gather from the latest Legion annual that Giffen is back to ripping off Kirby after his 3 decades or so of ripping off that guy in Argentina. I vastly prefer him when he's aping Kirby, I have to admit.
   229. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 03:14 AM (#3926630)
(But then I'm skeptical of Geoff Johns. Always have been. No matter how many of his comics I enjoy.)


If Johns was behind the hilariously repulsive Blood-Vomiting Spectrum of Lanterns 'n' Dead Guys-O-Rama fiasco, as I believe was the case, then "skeptical" doesn't begin to describe my attitude toward his garbage.
   230.     Hey Gurl Posted: September 16, 2011 at 03:17 AM (#3926631)
the screaming soundtrack


I've noticed this in a lot of movies lately. Or perhaps more accurately, I'm struck when I watch older movies how less often they have blaring trumpets in the background of every scene. What's with that anyway? It's one of those things that, once you notice it, you can't stop noticing it until it drives you (me) mad.
   231. Dale Sams Posted: September 16, 2011 at 03:22 AM (#3926636)
I quite liked Darkest Night, but like I said, he's the King of the Fanboys.

It's not enough that the Corp has to face Sinestro, the Sinestro Corps, and the Manhunters. Hell, throw in Superboy-Prime and the GD Anti-Monitor too!

Ultimatly it doesn't matter. I'm quite unlikely to read another new book ever again after this latest ridiculous reboot.

"Our books were being weighed down by years of coninuity that writers were slaves to." Unh-huh. Byrne was so enslaved to continuity he just brought back the ####### Doom Patrol without a word about them having been dead. You know what good writers do? They make continuity sit up and dance for them. Alan Moore did that. Grant Morrison did that on Justice League.
   232. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 03:31 AM (#3926644)
Superboy-Prime, Superboy-Schrime. Of course, I'm a shameless example of the Golden-Age-of-Comics-is-8 philosophy, whereby I've steadfastly ignored anything that's happened with the major players -- Superman/boy/girl, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, Spider-Man, the FF, Thor, Hulk, whatever -- since about 1969. (I gather there was some sort of foofaraw with the X-Men in the mid-'70s, but the hell with it.) That's not the case with the Legion, of course, but they've never been major players.

I've managed to spare myself a lot of drivel, & even then I'm still sitting among about 100 short boxes of comics as I type this, not to mention the hundreds of trades & hardcovers in the front of the house.
   233. Dale Sams Posted: September 16, 2011 at 03:46 AM (#3926661)
Golden-Age-of-Comics


still sitting among about 100 short boxes of comics


Tracking down Gef's IP number as we speak...don't mind me...I'm harmless...
   234. Matthew E Posted: September 16, 2011 at 03:49 AM (#3926662)
I'm a shameless example of the Golden-Age-of-Comics-is-8 philosophy


I am too, in a sense; I still have a tremendous fondness for early-'80s stuff like Atari Force, All-Star Squadron, Captain Carrot and his Amazing Zoo Crew, Amethyst: Princess of Gemworld, Blue Devil, the Claremont-Sienkiewicz New Mutants... But I'm more interested in comics now than I was then, in some ways; I still like the Legion, but I have no use for nostalgia at all. What I really want is for someone to do something, anything with the Legion that I've never seen before.
   235. Repoz Posted: September 16, 2011 at 03:51 AM (#3926666)
Legion Forever! This thread might make me go back and re-read my complete 30-year run*!

Fell by the wayside in the 90's. I feel terrible about this.
   236. Matthew E Posted: September 16, 2011 at 04:07 AM (#3926682)
Legion Forever!


I think Projectra said it best when she said, "As long as there is a Legion of Super-Heroes, all else can surely be made right."
   237. Dale Sams Posted: September 16, 2011 at 04:23 AM (#3926684)
Fell by the wayside in the 90's. I feel terrible about this.


Yup. End of an Era was the last LSH comic I read. And ftr, I LOVED Vol. 4

What I really want is for someone to do something, anything with the Legion that I've never seen before.


Well...you could do an Untold Tales of the LSH starting with Adventure #247. And then do one for every single LSH appearance after that.
   238. Something Other Posted: September 16, 2011 at 06:19 AM (#3926701)
@230: Yup. I suppose it's because so many films are geared to 18-29 year olds who grew up on constant jump cutting and nonstop music videos, and start napping when a shot or a silence lasts longer than five seconds. That's an overstatement, but probably not by a whole lot.

I have a lot of work to do from home these days, so Avatar is playing in the background. The cinematography is remarkable, but the story is... well, simple, and the dialogue is serviceable, at best (in half an hour not a single standout line). 'Course, it's a Cameron film. Whatever there is to be said for Aliens 2, Terminator, and Titanic, spectacular dialogue isn't one of those things. The Bad Humans are Really, Really Bad. I know it's more difficult to do, but it's a lot more interesting when the exploiting humans are at least troubled--they've run out of resources and have no choice, they think, but to exploit the Naavi homeworld.

Michelle Rodriguez: "I didn't sign up for this ####!"

C'mon.
   239. Greg K Posted: September 16, 2011 at 06:59 AM (#3926707)
I've spent the last 2 hours on Criticker when I was planning to go to the gym...thanks guys.

I second that. Now I finally have something to do with my giant database of movie ratings. Looks like no work is getting done today.
   240. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: September 16, 2011 at 11:10 AM (#3926722)
"Hello and welcome to moviefone!"
   241. Matthew E Posted: September 16, 2011 at 01:02 PM (#3926757)
By the way, I should have said something before; I can't reproduce my reasoning of why I didn't:

I'll have to check out your book, it looks interesting.


Ordered.


Awesome site. Bookmarked.


I've had it since it came out [...] & I'll have to re-read it.


Thanks very much. It's greatly appreciated.
   242. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: September 16, 2011 at 01:13 PM (#3926761)
The cinematography is remarkable, but the story is... well, simple, and the dialogue is serviceable, at best

Avatar spoiler alert...

That was my feeling exactly. I had someone (who I normally trust in movie reviews) tell me that Avatar was incredible. And visually, it was. But we've seen the story a hundred times. Overall as a movie it was nothing special. How many times have we seen the plot of the exploiters, then the one sympathetic soldier who defects? Leading the technologically primitive troops into battle? One-on-one combat with the former mentor? And even within the story everything was telegraphed. Did anyone doubt when the Sigourney Weaver character didn't make it that they were going to do the exact same thing with the hero and it would work?

There was probably only one element of the movie that was a surprise. The other avatar guy was pretty jealous of the hero early on. Normally that guy betrays the cause at some point.
   243. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2011 at 01:21 PM (#3926768)
How many stories are out there that haven't been told a hundred times?
   244. Banta Posted: September 16, 2011 at 01:21 PM (#3926769)
Watching Avatar on DVD on a small TV was pretty worthless. I wish I had seen it in 3D or at least on Bluray. Now I don't even think I have the will to sit through it again, no matter what medium it's presented on. It's just so damn long and not nearly interesting enough to make up for it.
   245. BDC Posted: September 16, 2011 at 02:42 PM (#3926835)
My mom was a secretary for an ad house back in those days, and she swears that the show totally nails how things were

Along those lines, some close relatives who were (respectively) a cop and a senior government civil servant overseas speak fondly of Barney Miller and Yes, Minister, respectively. I was surprised at the latter, but apparently the idiocy of political appointees is if anything understated in that series.

Honestly, when I was chairing an English department, Barney Miller came as close to depicting my workplace as any fiction I've ever seen. Even the office layout was similar. We didn't have holding cells, but we had the most amazing parade of oddly-functioning people come through the door, and I would have to take several of them into my office to talk about their delusions. Most offices have a Fish or a Wojo or a Harris. English departments tend to have several Dietrichs.

WKRP in Cincinnati gets honorable mention as a workplace sitcom. The Office in all its versions is obviously good too, though part of my preference for the British version is that the whole situation breaks down more quickly; the boss is too great an idiot to keep a job very long. (In real life at a university, of course, he would be promoted to Dean.)
   246. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: September 16, 2011 at 02:51 PM (#3926851)
How many stories are out there that haven't been told a hundred times?

Well, of course, but that doesn't mean that they have to follow the old trope exactly. I'm pretty sure that people are making movies/TV/books that put new spins on things. Avatar had zero originality in plot.
   247. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 02:52 PM (#3926852)
I just wasted 2 hours on criticker. Thanks, guys.
   248. McCoy Posted: September 16, 2011 at 02:57 PM (#3926859)
I'm pretty sure that people are making movies/TV/books that put new spins on things. Avatar had zero originality in plot.

Well, that isn't the only place to put the new spin.
   249. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: September 16, 2011 at 03:09 PM (#3926873)
Well, that isn't the only place to put the new spin.

Sigh... I already said that I agreed with #238 that the cinematography was incredible. Was it an enjoyable movie? Yes. Were there things that I've never seen before? Yes. Does that make it a good movie? Actually, yes. Just not a great one. It could have been great if there was any originality in the plot or the characters.
   250. Daunte Vicknabbit! Posted: September 16, 2011 at 03:24 PM (#3926888)
I've spent the last 2 hours on Criticker when I was planning to go to the gym...thanks guys.


What's your name on there? I'm "IHateMovies" and have started watching movies again and will thus be critickering.
   251. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 03:28 PM (#3926894)
Superboy-Prime, Superboy-Schrime. Of course, I'm a shameless example of the Golden-Age-of-Comics-is-8 philosophy, whereby I've steadfastly ignored anything that's happened with the major players -- Superman/boy/girl, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, Spider-Man, the FF, Thor, Hulk, whatever -- since about 1969. (I gather there was some sort of foofaraw with the X-Men in the mid-'70s, but the hell with it.) That's not the case with the Legion, of course, but they've never been major players.


I don't have a cut-off date for when I start ignoring silliness; I pick and choose. For example, when GL made Hal Jordan evil, I was done.

(X-Men in the mid 70's had some strong points, by the way.)

But my general cutoff for DC would be shortly after the first reboot (Crisis on Infinite Earths). I liked the idea (get rid of some of the silly crap), but the execution left a lot to be desired.
   252.     Hey Gurl Posted: September 16, 2011 at 03:56 PM (#3926930)

The cinematography is remarkable, but the story is... well, simple, and the dialogue is serviceable, at best


"Serviceable" is far too generous. The army sergeant guy in particular had a face-palm-inducing line every time he opened his mouth.
   253. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 04:14 PM (#3926940)

(X-Men in the mid 70's had some strong points, by the way.)


Oh, I know. I was just being overly dismissive earlier. I bought Giant-Size #1 & X-Men #94 & stayed through at least the first few issues Byrne drew. It's just the core characters (which the X-Men were very much not back then, of course) I lost interest in around 1970, which is the first time my comics-buying took a serious dive*, not to be resuscitated till 1974 or so.



*I've never been sure exactly what occurred there, since I was only 10 & certainly not yet interested in girls, but 1970 happens to be the year I started buying baseball cards, & with an allowance of, IIRC, 50 cents (it may've gone up to a buck by then), I was in no position to serve two masters. Also, looking back, something about the early Bronze Age just didn't sit well with me. I remember finding Kirby's Fourth World stuff, the Superman "Kryptonite No More!" story line & the 8-(or was it 6-? or 4-?)armed Spider-Man stuff cringingly stupid, even at age 10.
   254. Dale Sams Posted: September 16, 2011 at 04:27 PM (#3926955)
cringingly stupid, even at age 10.


20 and 25 cent DC comics are my faves. They're not the best by any means, but I love that era. Especially the 100 pagers.

I haven't bought a 'lot' on Ebay in a while. I may take a look today. If my wife complains I'm going to refer her to you guys.
   255. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 05:13 PM (#3927005)
I haven't bought a 'lot' on Ebay in a while. I may take a look today. If my wife complains I'm going to refer her to you guys.

Oh no you don't. I'll tell her it was entirely your idea.

I actually sold most of my comics back in the late 90's (needed cash, wasn't reading them), but hung on to some of my faves (including my LSH run, as well as anything Mike Grell was involved in, plus some other stuff).
   256. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 05:33 PM (#3927029)
I sold my collection -- around 2,500 comics, probably around 60 percent Marvel -- in the summer of '81 to help finance the move from Arkansas to Arizona for grad school. I think I got $350, which translates to around 14 cents a comic ... including, of course, Spider-Man #14 (first Green Goblin), FF #s 48-50 (the Galactus trilogy), the aforementioned Giant-Size X-Men #1 & X-Men #94, the Wally Wood Daredevils, Avengers #s 5-24, X-Men #2, Journey Into Mystery #90, etc. etc. etc. *Ouch*

Savvy businessman that I was, though, I'd already sold my Hulk #181 on its own a few months before. Got probably 2 bucks for that baby.

Only ones I kept were my very favorites -- maybe a couple of dozen Sgt. Furys (at least those included #13, with pre-Tales of Suspense Capt. America & Bucky & thus fairly valuable) & 5 or 6 Not Brand Echhs.
   257. Matthew E Posted: September 16, 2011 at 05:39 PM (#3927036)
Of course, the other thing about comics is this. If you're curious about what kind of stuff is going on these days (and some of it, especially when you step outside the DC and Marvel heavy-continuity superhero churn, is awesome), whatcha do is get a library card and browse through your local library's collection. If you're in a big city you can probably use their online catalog to place holds and access a wider selection. I have read literally hundreds of great comics for free over the past few years that I never would have been able to read if I had had to buy them all. That includes collections from every era; I read all of Caniff's Terry and the Pirates stuff, all of Naruto and One Piece, all of Fables, Hellboy, the Lee-Ditko Spider-Man stuff, the Lee-Kirby Fantastic Four stuff, Invincible, Jack Staff, Tom Strong, Transmetropolitan... a lot more. The library's awesome.
   258. JRVJ Posted: September 16, 2011 at 05:47 PM (#3927046)
FWIW, I was as huge Legion fan in my day. I first read them from Mexican reprints in the 70s, mainly the Mike Grell years. Then some Broderick issues (I remember one with Sunboy).

When I started reading U.S. comics in English (we had good distribution of DC and Marvel here in Panama in those days), which was in 1985, I got to read some of the Levitz - Jurgens run, and then the reprints of the Baxter issues with Giffen and then Steve Lightle.

I went crazy for the Legion and managed to track down all the way back to the late Cockrum/early GRell issues (and I even had that old issue, I think from Adventure Comics, where the 25 member limit was imposed for "tax reasons").

I lost interest during the Laroque years, because I really didn't like that guy's work.
   259. Matthew E Posted: September 16, 2011 at 06:00 PM (#3927064)
What a coincidence; here's an interview with Paul Levitz, talking about current Legion comics and the DC relaunch.
   260. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 06:39 PM (#3927125)
I lost interest during the Laroque years, because I really didn't like that guy's work.


Glad I'm not the only one. I thought he was pretty terrible.

Also, it seems that, sooner or later, most every comic I loved got saddled with Joe Staton at one time or another. Yeesh.
   261. Matthew E Posted: September 16, 2011 at 06:53 PM (#3927146)
Larocque was never my favourite either, but when I look back on his issues, he's a lot better than I remember him; lots of times I'd look at a panel and say, man, that looks really good. Who's drawing this again? Larocque. Son of a gun.

Plus, give him credit, he had staying power. Lots of artists I liked better than him couldn't handle the title, with the futuristic settings and huge cast of characters to draw all the time, and bowed out of the title after not long: Manapul, Cinar... Larocque stayed with it, though, and had a real long run.
   262. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 07:24 PM (#3927175)
Larocque was never my favourite either, but when I look back on his issues, he's a lot better than I remember him; lots of times I'd look at a panel and say, man, that looks really good. Who's drawing this again? Larocque. Son of a gun.

Plus, give him credit, he had staying power. Lots of artists I liked better than him couldn't handle the title, with the futuristic settings and huge cast of characters to draw all the time, and bowed out of the title after not long: Manapul, Cinar... Larocque stayed with it, though, and had a real long run.

I'm fairly picky about my artwork. There are a lot of artists that routinely kept getting work for no reason I could discern (Don Heck, Joe Staton, Al Milgrom...I could go on and on). But I haven't read any of the Laroque stuff in a long time; I'm certainly willing to revisit them.

Then again, I thought Steve Ditko was terrible, so you probably shouldn't go by me.
   263. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 10:33 PM (#3927317)
Also, it seems that, sooner or later, most every comic I loved got saddled with Joe Staton at one time or another. Yeesh.


Staton was great on a really light-hearted comic like E-Man, but for me he never was right for anything that took any sort of serious approach.
   264. Dale Sams Posted: September 16, 2011 at 10:46 PM (#3927326)
Best LSH cover? "Death of Superboy" one by Frank Miller.

If I had been writing that, I would have stranded Superboy in the 30th century and really played that up. He was always my fave Legionnaire.
   265. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: September 16, 2011 at 11:39 PM (#3927394)
Staton was great on a really light-hearted comic like E-Man, but for me he never was right for anything that took any sort of serious approach.


Yep. Or Plastic Man. He was perfect for Plastic Man because (A) Plastic Man was light-hearted, and (B) I didn't read Plastic Man.

I just stumbled over the "DC Retroactive" stuff. The 70's issue for Green Lantern is Denny O'Neill and Mike Grell, so I'm all over that. The 80's issue is Len Wein and Joe Staton, thereby representing some of the worst comics ever issued IMO. BLEARGH.

I also (in a successful attempt to avoid working) found Mike Grell's website. He does commission work! For slightly under a grand I could have him recreate one of my favorite comic covers of all time.

I am seriously considering this.
   266. JRVJ Posted: September 17, 2011 at 12:29 AM (#3927466)
For slightly under a grand I could have him recreate one of my favorite comic covers of all time.


When did this become a baseball oriented offshoot of Scans Daily? ('cause that's a pretty slashy image :-))

In any case, Laroque just wasn't my cup of tea, particularly because my frames of reference were Lightle, Jurgens, Giffen and Broderick. Now I do acknowledge that Laroque's work was better than the crap that was passed for Legion art from the end of the Jim Sherman days to the beginning of the Broderick run(I think during what was called the Earth War saga, but I'm too lazy to look up), but that's small consolation since the stories weren't that good during this period anyway (and by the early 90s, I essentially stopped buying super hero comics, concentrating my resources on mid-to-highbrow titles).

Getting back to Joe Stanton, his Green Lantern books weren't that bad, but they weren't GOOD either, you know....

Also, getting back to Mike Grell, if I were to get a commission from him, it would definitely be a Jon Sable image, with deep Eastern-Souther African backgrounds and with Myke Blackmon prominently displayed.
   267. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: September 17, 2011 at 02:56 AM (#3927754)
Dunno if this is too late, but are there any Supergirl fans who read the Supergirl Comic Box Commentary blog?
   268. Matthew E Posted: September 17, 2011 at 03:03 AM (#3927759)
I'm not specifically a Supergirl fan, and I don't read it regularly, but I'm sure I've happened upon that blog at some point in the past. Why? Is it yours?
   269. Dale Sams Posted: September 17, 2011 at 03:05 AM (#3927761)
I liked Sherman fine, but yeah his stuff looked rushed. But the chapter he did for #300 looks great.
   270. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: September 17, 2011 at 03:17 AM (#3927772)
Matt, no, but it's written by one of my very best and oldest (like 25+ years) friends.
   271. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: September 17, 2011 at 03:26 AM (#3927776)
Interesting. I'd never seen that blog before I followed the link, but as it happens I discovered a few months ago that Supergirl had actually gotten pretty damned good at some point after I dropped it for the 3rd or 4th time at #22 (at which point it finally stuck). Those first couple of years were pretty horrid, overall.
   272. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: September 17, 2011 at 03:30 AM (#3927779)
This might be a good point to ask if anyone else frequents the Project: Rooftop site? It's comic books + graphic design, and it's pretty darn cool in a deeply geeky way.
   273. Matthew E Posted: September 17, 2011 at 03:37 AM (#3927785)
Another one I don't read regularly, but I have seen it. They had that thing a while ago where different people redesigned Wonder Woman, right, and someone drew her up as a like a cowgirl? And it was really cool? I'm pretty sure that was Project: Rooftop.
   274. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: September 17, 2011 at 03:38 AM (#3927787)
Best LSH cover? "Death of Superboy" one by Frank Miller.


You filthy whore liar -- mentioning the vile scum Frank Miller in the context of the Legion is cause for banishment to ... ummm ... whatever the hell the prison planet is called.

Edit: Takron-Galtos. Go. Now.

The best Legion cover, as everyone knows, is this one.
   275. Something Other Posted: September 17, 2011 at 03:41 AM (#3927789)
Well, that isn't the only place to put the new spin.

Sigh... I already said that I agreed with #238 that the cinematography was incredible. Was it an enjoyable movie? Yes. Were there things that I've never seen before? Yes. Does that make it a good movie? Actually, yes. Just not a great one. It could have been great if there was any originality in the plot or the characters.
McCoy seems to have come down with a permanent case of The Crankies, but as far as his complaint goes, plots can be fresh and interesting when the characters are new to us, the way so many of the other people we meet are new to us. When the writer creates distinct characters who behave in ways that grow out of their personalities, the way those characters meet well-known plot devices will be unique to them. And that's that.

Thanks to the Primate who mentioned the film The Incident in a recent thread. It happened to be on cable last night and it was a terrific B film with a lot of nice surprises. New York at night, and without spoiling it for anyone, the cast is very strong, and includes Ed McMahon, who's solid in a small role.

SPOILERS!!! below
It's the kind of film you sense immediately is something special. A very young Martin Sheen in his first film. Rich, inky blacks in the night ext. scenes. A thoroughly odd yet intriguing scene in the men's room of a bar. A brutal mugging that's as awful for the psychological distress inflicted as it is for the physical harm caused.
   276. Matthew E Posted: September 17, 2011 at 03:49 AM (#3927798)
The best Legion cover, as everyone knows, is this one.


What is that? I can't see any cover when I click on that link. It doesn't specify an issue.

I never thought about it: what's my favourite Legion cover? I dunno. Obviously there have been a lot of good ones. Maybe something like Coipel's cover for The Legion #3.
   277. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: September 17, 2011 at 03:57 AM (#3927806)
Hmmm. Odd. Let's try another source.
   278. Dale Sams Posted: September 17, 2011 at 04:03 AM (#3927812)
Too busy.
   279. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: September 17, 2011 at 04:19 AM (#3927822)
They let you post from Takron-Galtos? Jesus -- things sure have changed since I was a boy.

Anyway -- the original version.
   280. Dale Sams Posted: September 17, 2011 at 04:56 AM (#3927836)
That's pretty good, the Adventure Comics title was always too big though. Neal Adams managed some nice covers though.

They let you post from Takron-Galtos?


I hook Radiation Roy to Validus then plug in a Kryptonian Thought-Beast, and I've got instant Galaxy-wide internet. I'm not called Macgyver Lad for nothing.
   281. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: September 19, 2011 at 10:16 PM (#3930079)
Also, getting back to Mike Grell, if I were to get a commission from him, it would definitely be a Jon Sable image, with deep Eastern-Souther African backgrounds and with Myke Blackmon prominently displayed.


I discovered Grell thanks to GL, so I've got a soft spot there. But yeah, a Sable image would be cool. Also Warlord (or Green Arrow; they look identical).

His female LSHers always looked gorgeous.

Y'know, I might be better just setting up a nice fund for multiple Grell commissions.
   282. The Keith Law Blog Blah Blah (battlekow) Posted: February 20, 2013 at 10:16 PM (#4373144)
This is the first Moneyball thread I found that was still open, and I wanted to share this:
Speaking of unique, [Brandon] Kintzler had to turn down better money in Hollywood to sign with the Brewers. He was a finalist to play right-hander Tim Hudson in the film Moneyball, but the audition would have caused him to miss a chance to start the '09 American Association All-Star Game.

"I said, this is probably my best chance to get signed," Kintzler said. "I think I want to pitch in the All-Star Game. I don't want to be a movie star."
   283. Shredder Posted: February 21, 2013 at 12:23 AM (#4373171)
I went to college with the guy that played David Justice. He was on the baseball team at UCR and that was right when the Braves were getting good, so everyone noticed the obvious similarities between Justice and Stephen Bishop back ghen, so it's fitting that Bishop ended up playing him in the movie. I didn't really know him, but some of the guys in my hall freshman year were on the baseball team, so we would watch them play a fair amount.
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