While his signing was viewed as a novelty act, Moyer has been the Rockies’ best starting pitcher this season. He didn’t walk clumsily into history against San Diego, instead embracing it with pitches on the corners and at all different speeds. Moyer worked seven innings, allowing no earned runs on six hits. His lone strikeout victim was Padres center fielder Cameron Maybin, who swung so hard he fell to his knees in the sixth inning.
The Brooklyn Dodgers’ Jack Quinn was the previous oldest pitcher to win a game, topping the St. Louis Cardinals in 1932 at 49 years, 70 days.
“I kind of wish I was a baseball historian, and I am a little embarrassed that I don’t know more about it,” Moyer said. “To have my name mentioned with the greats of the past is special.”
...This was vintage Moyer. And that’s saying something for a guy who has thrown more than 58,000 pitches. Baseball scouts armed with stopwatches and radar guns prefer pitchers bigger and stronger. The radar gun becomes the résumé. Moyer, as said before, is a raider of a lost art. He topped out at 79 miles per hour on his fastball and shrewdly blended in a 27 changeups and four curveballs.
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Maybe I just have a different impression of "novelty act" than the author? His signing was certainly viewed as interesting and out of the ordinary, but does that make it a "novelty act"? To me, at least, a novelty act is not just something that is novel, but also something that wouldn't stand on its own merits if not for the novelty factor. I'm pretty sure the Rockies signed him in the hopes that he'd get batters out.
...and 7 errors during Moyer's 17 innings.
Oldest pitchers to earn a decision, 1918-2012, from B-R
A 27 mph changeup? Was he throwing the eephus pitch?
/NEEERRRRDDD!!!
~77 days. Say just before the All Star break.
A 3.1 K rate?
"~77 days. Say just before the All Star break."
That chart isn't yearsold.daysold?
If it is, then he won't make it this year.
Well, no one else has tried.
However, there are at least 50 pitchers in the past 35 years who've had an ERA+of 120 or higher over the course of a season where they had K9 rates in the 3's. Down at 3.1 or so, that group dwindles to just nine, with none of them occurring since the early-to-mid eighties.
The most recent pitcher to have a successful season with the K9 rate Moyer is currently sporting was Chien-Ming Wang, who struck out 76 men in 219 IP while posting a 125 ERA+ to accompany a 19-6 record with the Yankees in 2006.
Probably not, but, then, I doubt any team has ever done anything before under those conditions - finished first, last, you name it.
I was merely commenting on the idea that his peripherals haven't been bad to this point. Although I grant: aside from the K rate, they're fine. But I simply don't expect him to succeed unless the K rate goes up.
I'm rooting for Moyer, and I'm glad he hasn't been terrible yet, but I'm waiting until he beats major league hitters before I get excited.
Oh, and it is his first win in Coors Fields. One closer to Randy Johnson's stadium record.
You will find if you look it up that, among the 25 fewest BB/9 seasons in history, 24 are 19th century seasons. And Carlos Silva, 7th on that list. And it's not just 19th century: the most recent season other than Silva in the top 25 is 1884.
Anyway, this discussion reminded me of that season.
It's been 15 years since the Predator showed up to menace LA, but it seems to have recovered nicely. Still, we've only got seven more years to perfect the Voight-Kampff machine or we're going to simply swimming in hidden replicants.
Well, now hang on. Does a lineup have to be above average to be considered "major league"?
Excited about what? You're often "Mr. Anyone who doesn't like this non-sustainable-yet-wonderful-baseball thing does not like baseball." What are you waiting for, why not here? No one's expecting 15 wins out of the guy. We all the know the story. There's *some* novelty but sad or not, he does have a role to play on the team--he's recovered well enough from TJ to make the team and buy the Rockies some time to get their minor leaguers more experience and for De la Rosa to get closer to his return date, and he got a well-deserved win.
The tone of the thread was set by DiPerna and most of you have stepped right in line with the tone-deafness. A really fun thing happened last night. Moyer got choked up in the post-game interview as he reflected on his comeback, saying something along the lines of "I love baseball, it's all I know."
And yeah, I realize one can't argue or shame anyone into excitement. But you guys are acting like a bunch of combo commie grover norquist killjoys.
Most experienced AAA pitchers can probably win 12-15 games when used that way, don't you think? What they lack in Moyer's smarts they make up for with better stuff.
I love Jamie Moyer and am rooting for him to have a wacky ridiculous Shawn Chacon with the Yankees kind of year, but I'm not sure he's even a replacement level pitcher and my heart is hoping my brain is wrong when it says 'Moyer's probably going to retire around Memorial Day with an ERA over 5 for the year'.
The thing is, if this story actually plays out (in the good way) over the course of the year, it'll be the best thing in the entire world. I'm holding down my excitement because I'm skeptical that's going to happen.
Huh? In post #1 I said "It's a great story." I then commented on what his current talent level might be. I'm not allowed to do that? The only thing that's acceptable is full blind fanboy mode?
Pedantic nerd alert! Bokai actually doesn't appear in the baseball episode, but rather the Rumpelstiltskin "aliens investigating the concept of imagination by manifesting themselves as the imaginings of the crew" episode. (which to be fair is also a pretty awful episode).
No 49 year old pitcher has ever had as many as 2 starts before (Satchel Paige was the former record holder with 1), let alone be a #2 pitcher, let alone taking the previous year off, let alone played under those conditions for a pennant winner.
We're through the looking glass people.
A lot of orioles fans I've interacted with are saying "I'm not convinced after 10 games," "I refuse to get excited about this team at this point," "they've had good starts before and then collapsed," etc. Well, duh. Being happy about a few wins doesn't mean that you're committed to the idea that the team is going to the playoffs. Just live in the moment once in a while.
Technically, you said "It's a great story, but..."
What I *think* puck meant, and if so I agree, that it would have been nice to just leave it as "it's a great story" and put a period on it, or maybe even an exclamation point. But, this being BBTF, we all know THAT wasn't going to happen. :)
In 1927 the right fielder for the Pirates against Babe Ruth's Yankees in the World Series was Paul Waner...
Paul Waner was also the right fielder for the Braves on 4/19/1942 when Warren Spahn made his major league debut.
Warren Spahn started for the Giants on 9/27/1965 in a game against the Cardinals, for whom rookie Steve Carlton appeared in relief.
Steve Carlton started for the Phillies on 6/16/1986 against the Cubs. The starting pitcher for the Cubs was Jamie Moyer, who was making his major league debut.
Jamie Moyer was the winning pitcher for the Colorado Rockies last night.
No, but my 2011 rec-league club the "Punky Brewsters" came in third with the help of our #2 man Dennis "Satchmo" Derbinski.
I guess it's just a matter of personal preference, people express their love for their teams in different ways. I'm a bit of a pessimist at heart, but that serves to make me more excited by the brief moments of glory. It's not going to last, so why dwell on that fact? Embrace the fleeting joy! The opposite position is a frame of mind I can't really wrap my head around. I don't want to speculate (but I will!) but it's almost as if some people don't want to look the fool when their hopes are dashed, or find blind faith annoying. I say, who cares what others may think...right now the Jays are in the Wild Card position and I'm happy!
See, I think the fact that it's so unlikely to continue is why it's more important to enjoy it while it's happening.
Six degrees of Jamie Moyer?
I hope both last; I have pragmatic doubts based upon historical precedents.
As Daffy Duck famously said " I can dream, can't I"!
Includes Satchel Paige and Jack Quinn (yup, that is it)
G: 40
GS: 1
IP: 71
BB: 17
SO: 19
W: 3
L: 4
R: 29
ER: 24
ERA: 3.04
So Moyer needs 3 more wins to have more than all others combined from age 49 to infinity. He has more starts already. His 5 unearned runs allowed are more than all others ever allowed. He needs 13 more K's to match the total all time.
Sadly he has struck out all 4 times up to bat so far so the hitting records for 49+ years old are safe for the moment.
Minnie Miñoso: 1 hit, 10 PA, 2 K's
Jim O'Rourke: 1 hit, 4 PA, 0 K's, 1 run scored
Charley O'Leary: 1 hit, 1 PA, 1 run scored
Julio Franco: 1 hit, 4 PA, 1 K, 1 RBI
Hughie Jennings: 1 PA, 0 H, 0 K
Arlie Latham: 0 hit, 2 PA, 1 run scored, 1 stolen base (!)
Satchel Paige: 1 PA, 1 K
Jack Quinn: did not hit at age 49 (last PA was a few days pre-his 49th birthday)
Total: 4 hits, 23 PA, 0 BB, 4 K's, 3 runs scored, 1 RBI, 1 SB
So Moyer does have the strikeout total of all other 49+'ers. Lets hope he gets 5 hits and scores a few runs. Would love to see him steal a base (hey, if Cecil Fielder could steal two at age 32 I'm sure Moyer could steal one at 49).
True, the only pitchers in history to pitch at 49 are Moyer, Quinn, and Wilhelm. The other two also pitched at 48.
I think that's exactly right -- it's just easier and less risky to be cynical. (Although I'm not trying to include MCoA in that group. I think he's just being analytical.) Especially with a team like the Orioles, where predicting failure is a far, far safer bet than predicting success.
It's the same with politics. It's very easy (and lazy) to throw up your hands and say "ah, they're all liars and nothing will ever change."
Y'know, if all you have is soft junk that you can always keep low, Coors isn't a terrible place to pitch. Moyer might actually be GOOD there. His curves won't break much, but he now lives, like Stu Miller before him, primarily on a diet of multiple changeups. That makes him hard to take out of the park, and grounders, as far as I know, don't get any ballpark bonus, nor thin air bonus, from Coors.
I THINK (I don't have a complete "Paige's Familiar Quotations" at hand), that 1906 is the EARLY date that Paige gave people. That would mean that he was no older than that date implies. On the other hand, I am not at all sure that Paige was not still a major league pitcher when he "retired." He doubtless could still throw harder than Moyer can now....
- Brock Hanke
I'd like to see more evidence. Just to be sure.
In 1884 it took six called balls to earn a walk; prior to that, eight (or more.) IMO, any fewest-BB records should treat the 4-called-balls numbers separately from all the ones from 5-to-9 days.
Six degrees? I saw only four. Go to six and you might reach Alexander Cartwright.
Around age 50 he pitched 3 years for the AAA Miami Marlins, and was the best pitcher on the staff. Pretty much every pitcher on that staff got at least some time up in the majors so doing an MLE would not be difficult. I have no doubt at all that he could have pitched in MLB at that age. At age 59 though, harder to tell how much he could have contributed even with the 3 inning performance.
However, there is a chance he could hang around and be a decent #5 type and, if so, would be a fantastic and historic story. That should be your dream: a #5 starter who hangs around all year.
My dream is adequate 4-5 starter who hangs around 2-3 years.
We should all live so long.
From 1918 to 2012, (requiring Age>=49), sorted by oldest
I, too, love this story. I hope he pitches until he's 60. That doesn't mean I think it will happen. The natural next step in the flowchart, after I said "This is a great story," was to try to decide what his current ability level is.
I hoped Bonds and Clemens had continued also. I never want these guys to retire until they have nothing left.
CF Pagan
LF J.D. Martinez
C Posey
3B Sandoval
1B Alonso
RF Venable
SS Lowrie
2B Altuve
P
Wow, that is pretty bad. Not a ML-quality second baseman on the three rosters. Outfield is a bit of a mess as well. I don't know a whole lot about the Astros or Padres, so I may have chosen wrong, but there's not a lot to get excited about regardless.
You could squeeze Headley into the lineup at third, shifting Sandoval to first, if you don't believe in Alonso, I guess.
But anyway, yeah, that looks to be a below-average lineup.
Here's my favorite:
Jose Rijo was once traded for a 25 year old Rickey Henderson. He went on to win 111 games, retired, 5 years later got a HOF vote, then played 2 more seasons, retired again, 5 years later appeared on another HOF ballot, and that second ballot was 4 years ago. Moyer is 3 years older than Rijo.
Piazza
Sosa
Schilling
Biggio
And for 2014 if we get that far:
Maddux
Thomas
Glavine
Kent
Mussina
Might eventually be able to build a team of HOFers who've played their entire careers and been inducted while Moyer was playing.
Plus Bagwell
Well, it's a great line but the fact is that Daffy Duck is a fictional character and an animated one at that. So, in fact, he can't dream.
ABC:
7:00-- Father Knows Best (repeat)
7:30-- The Jetsons (A television producer casts Elroy and Astro in his new show.)
8:00-- Hollywood Special (later renamed The ABC Sunday Movie.)
10:00-- The Voice of Firestone (Arias from “Lakme” and “Boris Gudonov”; Chopin ballet.)
10:30-- Howard K. Smith News and Comment (“The American Fighting Man,” a Veterans Day tribute.)
NBC:
7:00-- Ensign O'Toole (The crew grumbles about the chef's food.)
7:30-- Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color (Part 1 of a Beethoven biodrama.)
8:30-- Car 54, Where Are You? (Officer Toody's talking parrot starts repeating his insults about Captain Block.)
9:00-- Bonanza (Hoss agrees to transport a mail order bride to his friend, but during the journey she falls in love with Hoss.)
10:00-- DuPont Show of the Week (A documentary about a doctor's long shift at NYC's Bellevue Hospital.)
CBS:
7:00-- Lassie (Lassie and Timmy aid a duck who has laid her eggs on a train track.)
7:30-- Dennis the Menace (Mr. Wilson is forced to help Dennis care for a chimpanzee.)
8:00-- The Ed Sullivan Show (Van Johnson sings; Kaye Stevens sings; Paul Lynde in a comedic scene about an African safari; Vern and Betty limbo dance; Bob Lewis plays banjo and tells jokes; Gabriella Tucci sings opera.)
9:00-- The Real McCoys (The McCoys get a new housekeeper.)
9:30-- General Electric True ("Man with a Suitcase," a dramatization of a man who smuggled his fiancee out of East Germany inside a suitcase.)
10:00-- Candid Camera
10:30-- What's My Line? (Mystery Guests-- Joseph L. Mankiewicz; Jane Russell.)
Eight days later saw the debut of “The Beverly Hillbillies.”
In 1996, when Jamie Moyer was 33, he was traded straight up for a 26 year-old Darren Bragg. Bragg retired in 2004.
I'm kind of looking forward to him getting dealt this year for someone who wasn't born when he made his MLB debut.
There have been tow pitchers in MLB history to pitch a game past their 50th birthdays. Jack Quinn last a few days past 50, and Satchel Paige pitched at 59. So the evidence suggests if Moyer can make it through this year and onto next year's roster, he's got a 50/50 shot at pitching another decade.
yeah, you almost have to get one of the Cs into the lineup but nowhere to put them. Probably Belt over Alonso at 1B (if you go by potential) or Huff over both if you are Bochy. But, anyway, Posey/Hundley/Baker at C is too much talent to waste, gonna have to trade one of them.
There are a few decisions here that would have to be made on defense. Is Melky really -18 like he was last year? If not, he gets considered for LF. Maybin gets consideration in CF but that depends on whether Pagan is the +33 guy he was 2009-10 or the -17 guy he was last year (he can't be both!). RF is scary bad -- maybe Maybin in CF and Pagan in RF is the answer.
Now if we'd add the Pirates, we could at least slot McCutchen into CF and Walker for 2B and now it's only embarrassing at SS and RF which is a step in the right direction.
Hmmm...Jose Tabata couldn't hold onto positive territory so the Pirates now have 4 guys with negative OPS+ in their b-r "starting" lineup.
Film at 11.
Go away.
Film at 11.
At the time of Moyer's 50th win, he was already 31 years old-- in the same year, Ichiro Suzuki won the first of his three consecutive Pacific League MVPs, an accomplishment which will help him sail into Cooperstown's Hall of Fame.
The Billboard Hot 100 on the date of Moyer's birth:
1. Big Girls Don't Cry
The 4 Seasons
2. Return To Sender
Elvis Presley
3. He's A Rebel
The Crystals
4. All Alone Am I
Brenda Lee
5. Next Door To An Angel
Neil Sedaka
6. Gina
Johnny Mathis
7. Bobby's Girl
Marcie Blane
8. Don't Hang Up
The Orlons
9. Limbo Rock
Chubby Checker
10. The Cha-Cha-Cha
Bobby Rydell
Making their chart debut the following week: The Beach Boys
NSFW
I like this one:
Jose Oquendo played 12 years in the big leagues and retired 17 years ago.
Jamie Moyer is older than Jose Oquendo.
2012 NL RPG: 4.00
2012 SFG RPG: 4.45
In addition, at least two and probably three Giants would start on the Red Sox.
For the first two months of the season Ray is the only person who gets more annoyed by the presence of baseball discussion than non-baseball discussion, because by definition nothing that happens in a small sample size is worth talking about.
Oh, yep, when I was doing a mental exercise Maybin was one of the first guys I thought of, but when I realized how hard it was going to be and started writing 'em down I forgot about him again. Martinez/Maybin/Pagan has got to be the way to go. Melky... I just don't buy it. But you're right, he's got to be at least considered. Okay, he'll be the 4th OF.
I don't know much about Hundley/Baker, are they better overall right now than Alonso at first? Stick one of 'em behind the plate and push Buster to 1B. Either way, we're making some hay at the margins but we're still not gonna get this lineup to MLB average quality.
In addition, at least two and probably three Giants would start on the Red Sox.
Well, to be fair, Posey would start on about 27 MLB teams. Point taken as far as the OF, but almost anybody's starting-caliber outfielders would be "starting" for the Red Sox right now, since they have 2 starting outfielders on the DL.
I posit that the divergence of our universe from the true universe was caused by the documentaries of future history having been transmitted back in time from the 23rd Century to the 1960s. Knowledge of those events altered the flow of history.
Sandoval would as well. People seem to not realize that Sandoval is really, really good. The list of 3b who are better than Sandoval is short: Longoria, Ramirez if his defense is average and the bat bounces back, maybe Cabrera depending on his defense, and that's really about it (unless you think A-Rod will bounce back).
Sandoval put up 6 WAR last year in 117 games. That's really freaking good.
EDIT: I don't have a dog in this race, to the extent there is a race. I just thought it was a fun thought experiment to see how good a 1 thru 8 could be constructed from SF, SD and HOU. Turns out, not very.
BB REF PI says:
1. Moyer has faced 1,425 unique batters.
2. "Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2012, sorted by greatest Home Runs ... Seasons/Careers found: 15,816"
That's 9.0%. Still a pretty cool stat.
Most popular first names (of 512) for batters Moyer has faced:
Least popular:
306 Tied @ 1
Most popular last names (of 1,082) for batters Moyer has faced:
Least popular:
924 Tied @ 1
When Moyer was born, John F. Kennedy was President, and would not be assassinated for almost exactly one more year.
When Moyer made his MLB debut, George H. W. Bush was the Vice President. Two years later, he became the President. Twelve years later, his son became the President. Eight years after that, another guy became the President, who is only one year older than...Jamie Moyer.
Steve Olin (1965-1993)
Cliff Young (1964-1993)
William Suero (1966-1995)
Jose Oliva (1971-1997)
Ken Robinson (1969-1999)
Tim Layana (1964-1999)
Andujar Cedeno (1969-2000)
John LeRoy (1975-2001)
Miguel Del Toro (1972-2001)
Mike Darr (1976-2002)
Darryl Kile (1968-2002)
Steve Bechler (1979-2003)
Dernell Stenson (1978-2003)
Ken Caminiti (1963-2004)
Brian Traxler (1967-2004)
Mario Encarnacion (1975-2005)
Carlos Martinez (1965-2006)
Russ Swan (1964-2006)
Ron Jones (1964-2006)
Cory Lidle (1972-2006)
Josh Hancock (1978-2007)
Red Beck (1968-2007)
Mike Coolbaugh (1972-2007)
Joe Kennedy (1979-2007)
John Marzano (1963-2008)
Geremi Gonzalez (1975-2008)
Darrin Winston (1966-2008)
Kevin Foster (1969-2008)
Nick Adenhart (1986-2009)***
Jessie Hollins (1970-2009)
Brian Powell (1973-2009)
Jose Lima (1972-2010)
Jeriome Robertson (1977-2010)
Oscar Azocar (1965-2010)
Francisco de la Rosa (1966-2011)
Howard Hilton (1964-2011)
Hideki Irabu (1969-2011)
Greg Halman (1987-2011)***
Rosman Garcia (1979-2011)
Danny Clyburn (1974-2012)
Terry Mathews (1964-2012)
*** - born after Moyer's major league debut
Does that query include or exclude players who never batted? That could be the discrepancy, if MLB's stat is 9.7% of batters but PI says 9.0% of players.
Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2012, (requiring PA>=0), sorted by greatest Plate Appearances = 15,816
Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2012, (requiring PA>=1), sorted by greatest Plate Appearances = 14,139 -> 10.1% faced by Moyer
About halfway through that, this sentence appears:
"Much of the above speculation about Jack Quinn's birth and ancestry is probably misguided."
Then a whole different date and birth country are brought in. Weird!
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