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Saturday, August 06, 2011

Mullen: David Ortiz was really 10 for 31 v Rivera not 8 for 25 going into Friday at bat

I tuned to the YES Network to make sure it was still an ESPN/Bud Selig clone and it was. Michael Kay announced David Ortiz’ stats v Mariano Rivera going into the 9th inning match up on Friday, August 5, 2011 in Boston. Kay says Ortiz does well against Rivera and

  is 8 for 25.

Ortiz does well against Rivera but the stat deliberately omits 6 meaningful at bats in the two players’ careers and cheats the baseball consumer out of a larger sample size, ie the post season, stats for which are readily available.

  Going into the at bat including post season Ortiz was

  10 for 31. Six more at bats.

Even the so-called Yankee tv channel doesn’t dare mention post season stats. 13 straight years in the post season (1995-2007) made the YES Network possible and brought attendance to floundering Yankee Stadium in the mid ‘90’s, when it was so bad all you heard was the Yankees had to move the stadium to Manhattan “because nobody would come to the Bronx.” Three levels of post season play make greater demands on players often in extreme weather conditions, on the biggest stages, against the toughest competition, often in close and extra inning situations, sometimes the most grinding and demanding of a player’s entire career. All in the trash, dismissed because Bud Selig is charge of stats, records, awards, glory, all aspects of players’ images, and perks for those he favors. ...So he has the troops saying post season stats should not be counted because it’s “unfair” to those who weren’t as “lucky” to go to the post season.

...This rationale assumes everyone who goes to the post season gets good stats. Even helpful pitcher vs batter stats are ignored for fear people might look into post season stats a little more-which would be “unfair.” If the YES Network ignores significant amounts of a Yankee player’s most difficult work or fails to inform viewers of meaningful post season at bats between Ortiz and Rivera, what’s the point of watching it?

Once the regular season ends…my 48-year old stat-book closes. As it should.

 

Repoz Posted: August 06, 2011 at 01:51 PM | 37 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: fantasy baseball, history, media, projections, red sox, sabermetrics, television, yankees

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   1. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 06, 2011 at 02:28 PM (#3894195)
Why ignore the walks? Two more PA!
   2. Fancy Pants Handle doesn't need no water Posted: August 06, 2011 at 02:33 PM (#3894197)
10 for 31 instead of 8 for 25? That's like totally different...
   3. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: August 06, 2011 at 02:39 PM (#3894203)
10 for 31 instead of 8 for 25? That's like totally different...

Truly it's conspiracy so vast, so immense...
   4. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: August 06, 2011 at 02:45 PM (#3894206)
Ah, reading that bit of strangeness in its entirety makes me long for the stray Susan Mullen post around here.
   5. Greg K Posted: August 06, 2011 at 02:51 PM (#3894208)
All in the trash, dismissed because Bud Selig is charge of stats, records, awards, glory, all aspects of players’ images, and perks for those he favors. ...So he has the troops saying post season stats should not be counted because it’s “unfair” to those who weren’t as “lucky” to go to the post season.

I'm not as well versed in baseball history as others, but haven't post-season stats been kept separately from regular season since before Bud Selig was born?

Even the so-called Yankee tv channel doesn’t dare mention post season stats.

Also what does this mean? From time to time I have the misfortune of having to watch a game on YES and one thing you can't accuse them of is not being a Yankee channel.
   6. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: August 06, 2011 at 03:03 PM (#3894217)
Because of my geographic proximity to both markets, I'm able to watch either YES or NESN when the Yankees and Red Sox play. My DVR is set to YES, so that's what I watch. But given an equal choice (and stipulating that I only care about the game; nothing else), which network actually does a better job covering the action?

Complicating things a bit, sometimes I have the three-way choice of YES/NESN/ESPN. Oh, whatever shall I do?
   7. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: August 06, 2011 at 03:09 PM (#3894219)
To get this party started, I've seen that sometimes NESN doesn't put up the scoreboard in the upper-left corner of the screen for like half an inning. I find that annoying. I think that YES has somewhat better production values; a few more replays, and I believe they were HD for about a year before NESN was. YES puts up OBP in the Hero graphic, which I don't know if NESN does.

I think both networks are quite capable of Pravda-style propaganda, and assuming that their team's scrubs would be All-Stars in the National League (to be fair, this is actually supportable by evidence from Yankee failed starting pitchers).

My tiebreaker recently has been announcers. If Kay's not in the YES booth, it's a slam dunk that I'll go there for my baseball needs. If he is, it's a lot closer. But I have trouble listening to Remy for too long, and as near as I can tell, he's in the NESN booth all the time.
   8. MikeTorrez Posted: August 06, 2011 at 03:13 PM (#3894220)
Having Singleton, Cone, O'Neill and Leiter in the booth for YES makes it great to listen to. Cone and Leiter are fantastic and O'Neill is just funny because he makes fun of Kay. So I'd say the YES announcers are not that bad.

The Yankee radio announcers OTOH...
   9. MikeTorrez Posted: August 06, 2011 at 03:14 PM (#3894221)
Also I miss Kaat. Grew up listening to him do Yankee games and he didn't pull his punches but also called a good game.
   10. MikeTorrez Posted: August 06, 2011 at 03:15 PM (#3894223)
Also I miss Kaat. Grew up listening to him do Yankee games and he didn't pull his punches but also called a good game.
   11. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: August 06, 2011 at 03:32 PM (#3894231)
It's not that they're not professional or leave out details, but the NESN announcers too often sound like they're reading off a teleprompter, with an enthusiasm level of zero. I guess you might call that "objective", and YMMV but I just find it boring. You don't have to emulate Harry Caray or Sterling, but that doesn't mean that you have to sound like Sherm Feller.

One thing I like about both NESN and YES is that they each include pitch counts in their score box. I can't understand why that's not standard for every network, considering how important that number is if you're just tuning in at any given moment.
   12. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 06, 2011 at 03:43 PM (#3894235)
I like Don Orsillo (NESN play by play) but I prefer announcers who don't shriek at me. Jolly's right though, they do tend to be pretty bland but that's my preference. I also think that as home team announcers go he and Remy are pretty fair in their analysis. They won't rip the Sox but if they disagree they'll comment on it.

I haven't heard the YES guys much but I've liked them when I have. Singleton is fantastic and while he's not there anymore Kaat was really good.
   13. MikeTorrez Posted: August 06, 2011 at 03:47 PM (#3894238)
@Jose - See, I kinda like it when the announcer gets excited (note excitement, not HOMERISH a la Sterling or Hawk). Certainly better than Joe Buck's blaise commentary...it's like he doesn't want to be there. Gary Thorne's calls during the 1995 ALDS between the M's and Yanks still stand out to me, particularly his Mattingly "hang onto the roof" call.

Scully was pretty good for getting excited when the time called for it. His call of Gibson's homer comes to mind.
   14. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: August 06, 2011 at 04:10 PM (#3894241)
I like Thorne. I don't understand the anti-Thorne sentiment that I sense here.
   15. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 06, 2011 at 04:13 PM (#3894243)
The problem with Sterling isn't homerism. It's the fact that he sounds like he is intentionally doing a caricature of a play-by-play announcer. Well, that and his breathtaking ignorance about baseball.
   16. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 06, 2011 at 04:15 PM (#3894245)
I think Thorne is OK, but I completely understand the anti-Thorne sentiment around here. He is often very condescendingly anti-sabr.
   17. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 06, 2011 at 04:20 PM (#3894247)
Benjamin - I like a bit of excitement too. The problem is that few announcers strike the right balance for my tastes. Sean McDonough was a guy who did that exceptionally well and I think Throne does too. Given the choice between "not excited enough" and "too excited" I'll take the former every time.

Sterling is just a bad announcer. I don't like the schtick but what drove me nuts about him when I lived down that way was it was difficult to follow the action. The radio guy's first and really only job is to accurately describe what is happening, to be the eyes of the listener and I think Sterling does a terrible job at that. I remember listening to the 2002 ALDS with him and there was a key moment (don't remember the specifics now) but it took 2-3 pitches to the following batter before he explained the base runner advancement on an out. One example but that was a consistent theme with him.
   18. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: August 06, 2011 at 04:21 PM (#3894248)
the most exciting regular season at bat I've ever seen live is ortiz vs. mo in september of 2007...let me ser if I can find it.
   19. smileyy Posted: August 06, 2011 at 04:24 PM (#3894249)
[5] which makes perfect sense for career counting stats, but not something like head-to-head matchup.
   20. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: August 06, 2011 at 04:47 PM (#3894260)
ah yes, september 16 2007, 2 outs bottom of the ninth, bases loaded, one run game, mo vs. ortiz...count goes full, crowd goes nuclear, Mo gets him on a popup.
   21. Howie Menckel Posted: August 06, 2011 at 05:22 PM (#3894275)
The overall "mingle the stats" idea is silly, but I would not be upset if postseason AB were counted in listing re the batter v pitcher history. That has nothing to do with other players who didn't participate in the postseason.

Of course, Ortiz being 10 for 31 instead of 8 for 25 doesn't exactly make for a dramatic case for this proposed shift, lol.
   22. Karl from NY Posted: August 06, 2011 at 05:25 PM (#3894277)
One thing I like about both NESN and YES is that they each include pitch counts in their score box. I can't understand why that's not standard for every network, considering how important that number is if you're just tuning in at any given moment.


I prefer not, actually. When a pitcher is dealing around the third or fifth innings, I'd rather enjoy what he's doing rather than be constantly reminded of the impending overcautious yank and inevitable parade of relievers due in an hour. And for one-inning relievers, showing pitch count is silly. Show the pitch count only when it's relevant, when the starter is nearing 100 or when the swingman is in his third inning or so.
   23. Fancy Pants Handle doesn't need no water Posted: August 06, 2011 at 05:29 PM (#3894281)
It's not that they're not professional or leave out details, but the NESN announcers too often sound like they're reading off a teleprompter

Wait what? The problem with Remi and Orsillo is that they frequently fail to actually pay any attention to what's happening in the game. When they are actually announcing the game, they are fine, but their giggle-fests are just unbearable.


See, I kinda like it when the announcer gets excited (note excitement, not HOMERISH a la Sterling or Hawk). Certainly better than Joe Buck's blaise commentary...it's like he doesn't want to be there.

I disagree. Orsillo can get pretty excited, but only when the situation actually demands it. Which I do think is a more honest form of announcing, rather than trying to hype every non-event to 11. E.g. last week when Ellsbury hit a walk-off bomb, the night after another walk-off hit, Orsillo sounded like he was really into it.
   24. ecwcat Posted: August 06, 2011 at 05:35 PM (#3894283)
The writer is angry at something...

Post-Season stats are never included.

David Cone and Ken Singleton were great last night. Coney plugged FanGraphs again.

Regarding Gary Thorne (not sure why he's brought up, but anyway...):

He's a homer. But he was a homer for the Mets. So that makes him fake.
He looks and acts like Mr. Smithers from the Simpsons.
He is a stooge for the Orioles front office.
He judges way too much in his ivory booth.
He and Jim Palmer enjoy saying how "trainable" black players are.
Generic Yankees bias.
   25. Tricky Dick Posted: August 06, 2011 at 05:42 PM (#3894287)
Let's just ignore the simplest and most likely explanation...they just look up the stats like the rest of us and it doesn't include post season performance.
   26. PreservedFish Posted: August 06, 2011 at 05:50 PM (#3894291)
Let's just ignore the simplest and most likely explanation...they just look up the stats like the rest of us and it doesn't include post season performance.


Of course this true, but for batter/pitcher matchups it would make sense to include the post-season stats.
   27. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: August 06, 2011 at 05:56 PM (#3894293)
He and Jim Palmer enjoy saying how "trainable" black players are.


Wait, what?
   28. Repoz Posted: August 06, 2011 at 06:34 PM (#3894318)
David Cone and Ken Singleton were great last night. Coney plugged FanGraphs again.

Coney is breathtakingly great (a NY scribe told me earlier in the year that Cone said he was going to let it fly this year) at times but seriously underused/muted by the nitwitty twins Kay & Singleton (when Singy was counting down the consecutive strikes Boone Logan was throwing last night and discounting the ones outside the zone, or hammered, as being intentional...I wanted to pour some quality acid on my pooch's wagon-circled fresh litter).
   29. MikeTorrez Posted: August 06, 2011 at 09:05 PM (#3894392)
How can someone be a shill for the Orioles front office and have a generic Yankee bias?
   30. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 06, 2011 at 09:53 PM (#3894431)
Let's just ignore the simplest and most likely explanation...they just look up the stats like the rest of us and it doesn't include post season performance.

Of course this true, but for batter/pitcher matchups it would make sense to include the post-season stats.


Well, if you look 'em up on BB-Ref, post-season IS included.
   31. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: August 06, 2011 at 10:43 PM (#3894462)
Wait what? The problem with Remi and Orsillo is that they frequently fail to actually pay any attention to what's happening in the game. When they are actually announcing the game, they are fine, but their giggle-fests are just unbearable.


Agrred. And I could do without Heidi Watney's food criticism and guests in the booth. That's what the pregame is for.
   32. The Ghost fouled out, but stays in the game Posted: August 07, 2011 at 01:42 AM (#3894498)
@Jose - See, I kinda like it when the announcer gets excited (note excitement, not HOMERISH a la Sterling or Hawk).... Gary Thorne's calls during the 1995 ALDS between the M's and Yanks still stand out to me, particularly his Mattingly "hang onto the roof" call.

I will always remember hearing Thorne's call on an O'Neill home run in that series. I had no other reason to label him a homer before then, but "Home run, Paul O'Neill, into the night of New York!" was a little too joyful to my Seattle ears.
   33. Darren Posted: August 07, 2011 at 03:17 AM (#3894523)
Wait what? The problem with Remi and Orsillo is that they frequently fail to actually pay any attention to what's happening in the game. When they are actually announcing the game, they are fine, but their giggle-fests are just unbearable.


This, yes, 1,000 times this. I wonder, Andy, did you form your opinion of Remy/Orsillo recently? Because they seemed to have been told to tone it down a bit. I guess you would also probably see them as bland if you were usually only watching during Sox/Yanks, as those games are pretty intense and provide enough drama that they can't even pretend that their schtick has a place in the broadcast.

The other problem with Orsillo (besides the silliness, which is PLENTY) is that he often says things that don't happen. For example, a player will reach up for a ball at the wall and Orsillo will say "He leaps but can't get it!"

The camerafolks also tend to like to make routine flies look like HRs. I don't know what they get out of this.
   34. Repoz Posted: August 07, 2011 at 03:34 AM (#3894534)
Speaking of hearing things that didn't happen...

If I heard John Sterling correctly today, he said that back in the early 90's the Yankees beat Dennis Eckersley on back to back games and the reason he remembers this...is because Deion Sanders got the winning hit in both games.

I can find no proof of any of this.
   35. Dan Evensen Posted: August 07, 2011 at 04:00 AM (#3894543)
Scully was pretty good for getting excited when the time called for it. His call of Gibson's homer comes to mind.

Scully was good for getting excited, yes, but better for actually telling stories relevant to the game at hand. #23 hits the problem right on the head -- and this is a problem that television baseball broadcasters in general have struggled with for at least 25 years.

CNN struggles with the same thing. I was watching Piers Morgan interview Anderson Cooper the other night (OH MY GOD WHAT A SCOOP), and it was nothing but sophomoric jokes and giggling for like two minutes. Thank God I can just listen to BBC Radio 4 instead.

McCarver has always been good at getting broadcasters off the subject of the game at hand. I was rewatching Dwight Gooden's first start (from April 1984) the other night, and McCarver made me want to throw a wrench at the TV screen. I still don't understand people who think he was competent when he worked with the Mets. He's always been awful.
   36. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 07, 2011 at 04:06 AM (#3894544)
I understand why people get upset with the occasional off topic stuff but I enjoy it. I think when it's a pairing that seems to enjoy each other (I think Remy and Orsillo on the NESN broadcasts meet this criteria) it can be fun to listen to. I think it would be a little boring to listen just a description of what was happening. I invite these guys into my home 125 times a year, I prefer a bit more casual atmosphere.

For me the announcers are more background noise. I don't really need (or want) them to tell me what is going on. I can see it and I understand it enough that unless there is something really insightful to offer I don't need much.

The camerafolks also tend to like to make routine flies look like HRs. I don't know what they get out of this.


I've noticed this too. It feels like a somewhat recent change, around about 2009 and I wonder if NESN changed producers or something at that time.
   37. bobm Posted: August 07, 2011 at 04:50 AM (#3894553)
[34]
Speaking of hearing things that didn't happen...

If I heard John Sterling correctly today, he said that back in the early 90's the Yankees beat Dennis Eckersley on back to back games and the reason he remembers this...is because Deion Sanders got the winning hit in both games.

I can find no proof of any of this.


B-R says Sanders was 0-2 against Eck and both PAs were in 1997.

According to B-R, Dennis Eckersley never allowed a "winning hit" in back-to-back games (let alone to one player) to the Yankees during the 1990s:

EDIT: removed table of PAs that didn't show correctly

9/8/90: A's 5, Yankees 2
9/9/90: A's 7, Yankees 3

4/20/93: A's 9, Yankees 7
4/21/93: Yankees 5, A's 3

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