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Thursday, January 02, 2014

Murray Chass on Baseball: BIGGIO, PIAZZA FANATICS SAY IT AIN’T SO

Pusbutton blogger has problem with Calcaterra, Neyer…and Biggio.

Craig Calcaterra, the NBCSports.com guy, wrote last week about my view of Biggio and asked, “Who, besides Chass, ‘strongly suspects’ Craig Biggio of steroid use? I can’t for the life of me think of anyone who has made such an accusation in public.”

I feel sorry for Calcaterra. I am sure he is much younger than I am, but he is already having memory problems. Remember this headline on your column, Craig:

Jeff Pearlman believes Craig Biggio was a ‘roider

Rob Neyer is another blogger who has a problem with me. As if he had nothing better to write about – and if he didn’t his employer should dock him a day’s pay (I receive no pay for this column so don’t suggest the same for me), he wrote his entire column about my Hall of Fame ballot.

That actually is a popular exercise among bloggers because they are jealous of the baseball writers who get to vote. They think they can do better, but they can’t vote and it pains them.

Anyway, Neyer doesn’t think I voted for enough candidates. Even though I said I wasn’t voting for steroids-related candidates, Neyer wrote, he “can’t seem to find room on his ballot, or in his heart, or deep within the recesses of that powerful intellect, for Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell, or Larry Walker.”

Well, Rob old buddy, sorry to have to say this, but my standards apparently are higher than yours. I considered those players and concluded they weren’t Hall of Famers. When you get to vote, vote for them and anyone else you want. When you get to vote.

...Finally, an announcement that will disappoint Neyer, Calcaterra and the reader who, like those two bloggers, said they were delighted that this was the last time I would be voting for the Hall of Fame. Sorry, guys I never made it definite.

I said “barring a change in my thinking,” this could be my last vote. My thinking has changed, and all of you critics can blame yourselves. How could I relinquish my vote knowing how much it annoys you? I plan to vote a year from now even if I just send in a blank ballot. You would love that.

Repoz Posted: January 02, 2014 at 09:31 AM | 133 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hof

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   1. AROM Posted: January 02, 2014 at 09:38 AM (#4628077)
Troll

I don't think I've seen any real outrage about Deadspin buying a vote, so far it's speculative. But this idea - turning in a blank ballot just to sabotage the voting and annoy some other bloggers - is far more disrespectful to the process.
   2. DL from MN Posted: January 02, 2014 at 09:38 AM (#4628078)
We told you not to feed the troll. You fed him anyway.
   3. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: January 02, 2014 at 09:41 AM (#4628079)
Fascinating.
   4. The elusive Robert Denby Posted: January 02, 2014 at 09:41 AM (#4628080)
Dumb bloggers. After Jack Morris, it's silly to think any player could match Murray's high standard.
   5. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 09:44 AM (#4628082)
I can kind of understand why someone would vote for Jack Morris, but why wouldn't Curt Schilling also meet your criteria? He's got the big clutch game too.
   6. DL from MN Posted: January 02, 2014 at 09:48 AM (#4628087)
It doesn't irritate people to vote for Schilling, only to vote against him. Trolls act to irritate people and start useless arguments. Do not feed the troll.
   7. Lassus Posted: January 02, 2014 at 09:48 AM (#4628088)
Did Deadspin publish their submitted ballot, or did no one care? I don't remember.
   8. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 02, 2014 at 09:48 AM (#4628089)
Oh, Jeff Pearlman thinks so. That changes, well, nothing.

Murray definitively answers the previously unasked question: can man be sustained by spite alone?
   9. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: January 02, 2014 at 09:49 AM (#4628091)
Neyer wrote, he “can’t seem to find room on his ballot, or in his heart, or deep within the recesses of that powerful intellect, for Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell, or Larry Walker.”

Well, Rob old buddy, sorry to have to say this, but my standards apparently are higher than yours. I considered those players and concluded they weren’t Hall of Famers.


I would bet a large amount of money that in the past, Chass has voted for players far inferior to those: guys like Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Dave Concepcion, and Roger Maris.
   10. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: January 02, 2014 at 09:49 AM (#4628093)
This is sad and pathetic.
   11. Swedish Chef Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:01 AM (#4628099)
I hope to age with the same grace and dignity as Murray Chass.
   12. SG Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:05 AM (#4628102)
Did Deadspin publish their submitted ballot, or did no one care? I don't remember.


My understanding is that they weren't going to publish it so it couldn't get traced back to the voter who sold them his/her vote.
   13. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:09 AM (#4628105)

My understanding is that they weren't going to publish it so it couldn't get traced back to the voter who sold them his/her vote.


I think the guy who sold it is supposed to out himself after the vote is announced, at which point it can't be tossed out.

   14. Lassus Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:10 AM (#4628106)
As much as I despise Chass his "Oh, you were happy I wouldn't vote again? #### you, watch this" deserves a wry grin. Also, it helps the argument that many people don't deserve the vote.
   15. DA Baracus Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:11 AM (#4628109)
My understanding is that they weren't going to publish it so it couldn't get traced back to the voter who sold them his/her vote.


They will, they just haven't yet:

The voter will announce his/her name and motivations once his/her vote has been officially cast.
   16. Dale Sams Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:26 AM (#4628121)
Rob does have a vote doesn't he?
   17. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:27 AM (#4628123)
Anyway, Neyer doesn’t think I voted for enough candidates. Even though I said I wasn’t voting for steroids-related candidates, Neyer wrote, he “can’t seem to find room on his ballot, or in his heart, or deep within the recesses of that powerful intellect, for Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell, or Larry Walker.”

Well, Rob old buddy, sorry to have to say this, but my standards apparently are higher than yours.


Jack Morris.

When you get to vote, vote for them and anyone else you want. When you get to vote.


I forget but isn't Neyer either voting now or due to vote at some point?
   18. Brian Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:27 AM (#4628124)
Doesn't Neyer have a vote?

This public outing of himself should be taken seriously by the BBWAA. They should take his voting privileges away on this idiocy.
   19. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:27 AM (#4628125)
...Finally, an announcement that will disappoint Neyer, Calcaterra and the reader who, like those two bloggers, said they were delighted that this was the last time I would be voting for the Hall of Fame. Sorry, guys I never made it definite.

I said “barring a change in my thinking,” this could be my last vote. My thinking has changed, and all of you critics can blame yourselves. How could I relinquish my vote knowing how much it annoys you? I plan to vote a year from now even if I just send in a blank ballot. You would love that.


Good to know that he respects the process so much that he's voting purely out of spite.
   20. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:28 AM (#4628126)
This public outing of himself should be taken seriously by the BBWAA. They should take his voting privileges away on this idiocy.


The next time the BBWAA or the HOF shows that they care about anything at all that voters write will be the first.

I mean, the deadspin vote is literally the only thing I can ever remember registering with either organization. So it took literally selling a vote for them to care. Voters who write that they have disregarded or made up their own rules (e.g., the imaginary "first ballot" exception or voting for Jim DeShaies even though you don't think he's deserving) goes completely unnoticed.
   21. Nasty Nate Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:29 AM (#4628127)
I say this without malice - but everyone who has fueled the inescapable HOF-obsession deserves the Chassian trolls on the subject.
   22. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:29 AM (#4628129)
Neyer doesn't have a Hall vote yet, as he hasn't been a member for 10 years (and that's assuming he's still a member, which was in doubt last year).

   23. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:29 AM (#4628130)
Last week, I don't remember which article, Joe Posnanski just offhandedly referred to him as "blogger Murray Chass" and left it at that. I laughed and laughed. Sick burn, as the kids say these days.
   24. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:35 AM (#4628133)
Last week, I don't remember which article, Joe Posnanski just offhandedly referred to him as "blogger Murray Chass" and left it at that

Poz was borrowing from Verducci's unmistakable digs at Murray from a few years back following the Miller fiasco:

Editor’s note: The following story by Sports Illustrated senior writer Tom Verducci is a response to the erroneous report about yesterday’s Hall of Fame Expansion Era voting.)

Former players association executive director Marvin Miller issued an apology to me on Tuesday for telling a blogger that he “was told” that I was one of the five members of the Hall of Fame Expansion Era committee who did not vote for Miller in closed balloting on Monday. The published hearsay from Miller was wrong. I did vote for Miller.

“I wasn’t saying I knew,” said Miller, who fell one vote short of election from the 16-person committee. “I was passing along what was told to me and that’s wrong. I’m going to try to correct that ... I’m sorry.”

The blogger, Murray Chass, wrote, “Miller said some people told him they heard or believed” that I did not vote for Miller. The blogger followed the hearsay with three paragraphs of speculation about why I might have voted no on Miller, writing, “that’s what the belief is, and Miller missed by that margin of one vote.”

Because Miller gave erroneous hearsay to the blogger that was published, and especially with Miller falling one vote short of induction, the Hall of Fame took the unusual step of allowing me to reveal my vote. Committee members are asked not to reveal their votes.

Miller issued his apology to me after I telephoned him. I informed Miller that I supported him in the meeting room and with my vote. I also stressed to him that while I continue to admire his accomplishments, I was disappointed and saddened that a champion of fair treatment in his professional career would pass unfair, erroneous accusations to a blogger.
   25. Sandlapper Spike Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:42 AM (#4628143)
The other members of the BBWAA must feel proud to be associated with an individual like Blogger Chass.
   26. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:44 AM (#4628144)
I would bet a large amount of money that in the past, Chass has voted for players far inferior to those: guys like Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Dave Concepcion, and Roger Maris.


I've tried to dig around for Chass's old columns on his votes, but have been unsuccessful. He almost certainly didn't vote for Garvey/John/Concepcion since the NYT had a policy against letting writers vote from about 1990 onward, but Chass could have voted for Maris.
   27. Jay Seaver Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:44 AM (#4628145)
When discussing how the Hall of Fame votes have become a moralistic mess, a few friends and I joke that it will inevitably sort itself out because the likes of Murray Chass will eventually die. Stuff like this makes me think that's not terribly mean-spirited.
   28. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:47 AM (#4628146)
Well, on the bright side, at least the revenue from trolling ensures that Chass won't starve to death and get eaten by his cats.

I'd rather grow old with dignity, but I guess it's his life.
   29. Bob Meta-Meusel Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:53 AM (#4628151)
It turns out, oddly, that Chass and I actually live in the same town. Sadly I've never run into him.
   30. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:56 AM (#4628152)
Good to know that he respects the process so much that he's voting purely out of spite.


You can't vote out of spite.
   31. DL from MN Posted: January 02, 2014 at 10:58 AM (#4628154)
the likes of Murray Chass will eventually die


There will always be a new cranky old man to replace the ones that die. It is part of the circle of life.
   32. Mark Armour Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:05 AM (#4628162)
I hope and pray that Rob and Craig will have the good sense and class not to respond.
   33. DA Baracus Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:09 AM (#4628166)
   34. TJ Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:13 AM (#4628168)
It turns out, oddly, that Chass and I actually live in the same town. Sadly I've never run into him.


Get a bigger car, Bob...



I've tried to dig around for Chass's old columns on his votes, but have been unsuccessful. He almost certainly didn't vote for Garvey/John/Concepcion since the NYT had a policy against letting writers vote from about 1990 onward, but Chass could have voted for Maris.


I used to think the NYT had this policy as a matter of journalistic professionalism. Now I realize it was that they recognized just how big a fool Murray Chass is when it comes to the HOF...
   35. Moloka'i Three-Finger Brown (Declino DeShields) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:21 AM (#4628174)
I hope and pray that Rob and Craig will have the good sense and class not to respond.


You're kidding, right? They love this, and so does Chass. It's basically a radio stunt war. People are guaranteed to tune in and read this mess. Petty bickering is far more interesting to read than whomever signed some backup catcher to a minor league contract with an NRI provision.
   36. alilisd Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:23 AM (#4628176)
It turns out, oddly, that Chass and I actually live in the same town. Sadly I've never run into him.


Get a bigger car, Bob...


That's good advice, Bob.
   37. Publius Publicola Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:23 AM (#4628177)
That actually is a popular exercise among bloggers because they are jealous of the baseball writers who get to vote. They think they can do better, but they can’t vote and it pains them.


This.
   38. JJ1986 Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:26 AM (#4628180)
whomever signed some backup catcher to a minor league contract with an NRI provision


Washington signed Chris Snyder last week. Still waiting to see where Kelly Shoppach and John Buck end up.
   39. LargeBill Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:27 AM (#4628181)
It is a goofy and dated cultural reference, but every time I read "The Blogger Murray Chase" I also hear in my mind "The Virgin Connie Swail" line that was said repeatedly in the Dragnet movie. Even hear it in Dan Aykroyd's voice.
   40. Nasty Nate Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:31 AM (#4628182)

You're kidding, right? They love this, and so does Chass.


True. And things like this are the natural outgrowth of things like HOF voting, so expressing surprise or concerned disgust seems slightly naive.
   41. Mark Armour Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:41 AM (#4628187)
I have been reading about HOF voting for 40 years, and the first 35 of them consisted of people writing about who they voted for (or would vote for) and why. Once that column has been written, the writer in question moves on to talking about baseball.
   42. PreservedFish Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:42 AM (#4628188)
I've posted this thought before, but reading Chass actually makes me sad. I am fairly sure that he is constantly bringing these subjects (Miller, blogs, stats) up with his family, to their annoyance.

"Look at what these bloggers are saying this time!"
[ugh] "... what, dad?"
"Shhh ... don't get him started."
"They told me that I must vote for Curt Schilling because of his era plus!"
"Hey, Dad, is that a new birdfeeder? When did you get that?"
"Era plus! It's like they invent these things just to bother me!"
"We should be heading down to the Hilton soon. When does the buffet open again?"
   43. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:43 AM (#4628189)
...Finally, an announcement that will disappoint Neyer, Calcaterra and the reader who, like those two bloggers, said they were delighted that this was the last time I would be voting for the Hall of Fame. Sorry, guys I never made it definite.

I said “barring a change in my thinking,” this could be my last vote. My thinking has changed, and all of you critics can blame yourselves. How could I relinquish my vote knowing how much it annoys you? I plan to vote a year from now even if I just send in a blank ballot. You would love that.

I cannot believe a 75 year-old man wrote the above two paragraphs. For Christ sake, man, you're an adult; act like it.
   44. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:47 AM (#4628193)
I cannot believe a 75 year-old man wrote the above two paragraphs.


You must not read much political columnists. They pull this crap all the time.
   45. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:53 AM (#4628199)
The worst thing is that, you know, if we put Murray Chass and Rob Neyer in a room together, they would just have a pleasant conversation, discussing their favorite baseball memories and sharing anecdotes about their lives in the sportswriting industry.

All this semi-anonymous online correspondence seems to breed this sort of snarky and trolling behavior, and it's really unfortunate.
   46. Dale Sams Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:58 AM (#4628205)
Lot of love for BBTF on Hot Stove this morning. Has it always been that way?
   47. TRBMB Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:59 AM (#4628207)
Given Chass was a Spink award winner, has he ever advertised himself as 'Hall Of Fame writer', as Gammons does? If not, then at least he is not asserting himself wrongly as a Hall Of Famer while he asserts who isn't.
   48. valuearbitrageur Posted: January 02, 2014 at 11:59 AM (#4628208)
Be interesting to see percentage of players from each decade that are in the HOF. My guess is it's trended down hard, not only have voters not kept up with expansion, but are getting even more crotchety and get off my lawn-ey than ever,
   49. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:00 PM (#4628209)
if we put Murray Chass and Rob Neyer in a room together, they would just have a pleasant conversation, discussing their favorite baseball memories and sharing anecdotes about their lives in the sportswriting industry

if hearsay can be trusted at all one does not have pleasant conversations with murray about anything.

sorry davo, think on this one you are way off the mark

   50. Bob Tufts Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:03 PM (#4628214)
I am fairly sure that he is constantly bringing these subjects (Miller, blogs, stats) up with his family, to their annoyance.


I asked Muuray about this a few years ago. The blog commentary regarding the strong anti-SABR attitudes did cause some feedback from his family to be more conciliatory.
   51. bob gee Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:03 PM (#4628215)
29 - and i was born and raised in said town...

there's a lot of mom's basements in said town. but the best bagels, even better than nyc, at hot bagels!

   52. DanO Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:08 PM (#4628221)
Murray Chass: the Al Goldstein of baseball?
   53. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:11 PM (#4628223)
Lot of love for BBTF on Hot Stove this morning. Has it always been that way?


If you're talking the Gizmo, Brian Kenny mentioned it last year.

sorry davo, think on this one you are way off the mark


Szym has mentioned that the attitude toward Murray from the MSM pretty much mirrors our own. So yeah, I'm with Harvey here.
   54. Bug Selig Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:13 PM (#4628225)
1. Any time your best retort is, "I'm not alone. Jeff Pearlman agrees with me" just assume that you are 100% in the wrong.

2. Your entire reason for doing your bizarre little Superior Dance is that you belong to an organization that counts Bill Conlin among its honored members.
   55. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:25 PM (#4628228)
I have been reading about HOF voting for 40 years, and the first 35 of them consisted of people writing about who they voted for (or would vote for) and why. Once that column has been written, the writer in question moves on to talking about baseball.


Politburos never appreciate being held publicly accountable. The war between "old school baseball writers" (typified to a cartoonish degree by good ol' Murray The Bitter) boils down to two fundamental elements. First, "the internet" started providing a platform for mere amateurs to criticize the wisdom of official members of the BBWWA politburo. Publicly. That's offensive to them. Then, in a second act coup de grace, the internet actually started getting those old geezers *fired* from their cushy newspaper jobs. The vast majority of Murray Chass' problems with "bloggers" is that he no longer is special enough to get paid to spit bromides anyone with Extra Innings and a wifi connection can write just as well.
   56. bobm Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:32 PM (#4628234)
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060522&content_id=1466587&vkey=news_mlb&fext;=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Notes: Wells irks Astros
Veteran left-hander namedrops Biggio in steroid discussion
By Alyson Footer / MLB.com | 05/23/06 

[...]

The question posed to Wells, according to the Boston Globe: "Are there guys, power guys, who you say there's no way they're juicing, or is everybody under suspicion?"

Wells: "Now everybody is, I would think. You see a little itty bitty guy hitting 30 home runs, like (David) Dellucci, I guess. How many home runs did he hit last year? Twenty-nine? Has he ever done that in his career? The numbers have gone down tremendously since all this has come up. You know, I know Dave. I've never suspected him of doing 'em, so, you know, it's something that, who else, who else could be? [Craig] Biggio, he can hit the ball, he can make good contact. I guess if you've been around the game enough and know the strike zone. It's like Wade Boggs, he never hit home runs, but he could if he wanted to. He could see the ball well and he could put the bat on the ball well. BP, he was unbelievable. He could go deep at will.

"But to me ... suspicion is on everybody. There are a lot of guys who aren't doing 'em, there are a lot of guys who did do 'em who aren't doing 'em now, and you've got human growth hormone, too, so, and that's undetected. So I'm not sure everybody's on that."
   57. Steve N Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:43 PM (#4628250)
I can't figure out why Chass articles are posted here so often.
   58. John DiFool2 Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:47 PM (#4628253)
That actually is a popular exercise among bloggers because they are jealous of the baseball writers who get to vote. They think they can do better, but they can’t vote and it pains them.


Does anyone ever use the word "envy" anymore?
   59. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:49 PM (#4628255)
1. Any time your best retort is, "I'm not alone. Jeff Pearlman agrees with me" just assume that you are 100% in the wrong.


Yep. The thing is, for all we bash on Chass, Pearlman is WORSE. Chass is a cranky old man who at least has done some good writing to hang his hat on; Pearlman probably should be sued for slander on a monthly basis and have all access to the outside world taken away from him.
   60. It's a shame about Athletic Supporter Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:54 PM (#4628262)
Be interesting to see percentage of players from each decade that are in the HOF. My guess is it's trended down hard, not only have voters not kept up with expansion, but are getting even more crotchety and get off my lawn-ey than ever,


Does everyone agree that the percentage of players from each decade should remain the same, instead of the number of players? I feel like there should be a constant number of players from each decade (roughly speaking), not a constant percentage.
   61. Matt Welch Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:55 PM (#4628263)
everyone who has fueled the inescapable HOF-obsession deserves the Chassian trolls on the subject.

Everyone who likes to talk about something they find important or at least interesting is responsible for some old man acting like an #######?
   62. PreservedFish Posted: January 02, 2014 at 12:59 PM (#4628267)
Does everyone agree that the percentage of players from each decade should remain the same, instead of the number of players? I feel like there should be a constant number of players from each decade (roughly speaking), not a constant percentage.


I agree with total number, and not percentage.
   63. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:05 PM (#4628276)

If you're talking the Gizmo, Brian Kenny mentioned it last year.


They just got a shout out on MLB Radio on SiriusXM as well, mentioning Repoz by his real name rather than as "Repoz."
   64. SG Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:11 PM (#4628283)
I can't figure out why Chass articles are posted here so often.


Cause they get 50+ comments every time?
   65. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:12 PM (#4628285)
They just got a shout out on MLB Radio on SiriusXM as well, mentioning Repoz by his real name rather than as "Repoz."


One of the reason the Murray Chass's of the world are so apoplectic is that the nerds from the internet are being taken more seriously than they are. Calcaterra gets face time on ESPN. Darren's widget gets mentioned by friendlies. Meanwhile, Murray waits for the poor guy who drew short straw in this week's "who has to deliver to Old Man Chass" Meals On Wheels meet-up. This is also why the old guys are so keen on getting their last hurrah Jack Morris in. They understand pretty well, in their old, creaking bones, that they're losing influence and respect and are fast approaching the last solution to all intractable political problems in this world, wherein the HOF voting rolls will fix it self slowly but surely, one funeral at a time.
   66. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:12 PM (#4628286)
Everyone who likes to talk about something they find important or at least interesting is responsible for some old man acting like an #######?


To be fair, NN believes people taking an interest in the HoF debates or awards season is responsible for pretty much all the world's ills.
   67. Nasty Nate Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:27 PM (#4628313)

Everyone who likes to talk about something they find important or at least interesting is responsible for some old man acting like an #######?


It depends on what the "something" is.

To be fair, NN believes people taking an interest in the HoF debates or awards season is responsible for pretty much all the world's ills.


Ha! Well at least I've restrained myself from posting that sentiment in the HOF Collecting Gizmo thread, Trammell's "good at everything" HOF thread, the Tangotiger: Most Perfect HOF thread, the Rob Biertempfel: Six for the Hall of Fame thread, the HennemanL FULL BALLOTS HOF thread, the Rob Parker: Yeah I'm voting HOF thread, the Bob Smizik hof thread, the Menshcing Whitaker/Trammell HOF snub thread, the Dave Camerson HOF thread, the Sheldon Hirsch hof thread, or the Posnanski HOF thread.
   68. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:27 PM (#4628314)
It's not even about voting terribly - it's his complete lack of journalistic ethics. As far as I'm concerned hat he's done with Piazza and Biggio (and Musial and you can keep going) is even worse than what Jayson Blair and Stephen Glass did. They made up #### to enrich themselves. Chass makes up #### to hurt the reputation of others.

I'd be happy to talk to (and do) plenty of people in sports media I strongly disagree with about baseball and have a good time. That man, I wouldn't even shake his hand.
   69. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:29 PM (#4628318)
Errr, I mean I do talk to plenty of people in sports media I strongly disagree with, not that I sleep with plenty of people in sports media I strongly disagree with.
   70. DanG Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:29 PM (#4628320)
Does everyone agree that the percentage of players from each decade should remain the same, instead of the number of players? I feel like there should be a constant number of players from each decade (roughly speaking), not a constant percentage.
I think the ideal is somewhere between these two extremes. The number of hall of famers should be gradually increasing from decade to decade, but short of keeping up with the rate of increase in the number of players.

This is advocating a timeline effect, inducting a few more players with each generation as the game evolves and advances. And it's not linear either, as the game advances in fits and starts, at times regressing slightly.
   71. The Chanumas Spirit Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:31 PM (#4628322)
I'd be happy to talk to (and do) plenty of people in sports media I strongly disagree with about baseball and have a good time. That man, I wouldn't even shake his hand.


You might want to re-word that statement a bit, if for no other reason, to keep people with juvenile senses of humor (like me) from misunderstanding

EDIT: Drat. Missed the comedy window.
   72. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:31 PM (#4628323)
I think the ideal is somewhere between these two extremes. The number of hall of famers should be gradually increasing from decade to decade, but short of keeping up with the rate of increase in the number of players.


I agree with this.
   73. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4628325)
I don't think hot Shaunghnessy on Szymborski action is going to sell.
   74. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:34 PM (#4628328)
I don't think hot Shaunghnessy on Szymborski action is going to sell.


Now you tell me. What the hell am I supposed to do with the warehouse full of DVDs?

   75. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:47 PM (#4628343)
Now you tell me. What the hell am I supposed to do with the warehouse full of DVDs?


Thailand. You can sell anything in Thailand.
   76. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:47 PM (#4628344)
Errr, I mean I do talk to plenty of people in sports media I strongly disagree with, not that I sleep with plenty of people in sports media I strongly disagree with.
So the number is something lower than "plenty."
   77. Swedish Chef Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:49 PM (#4628348)
(and Musial and you can keep going)

The "Musial is a racist, here's a half-remembered third-hand anecdote that proves it" thing makes me wonder how one can work so long at NYT and grasp so little about journalism. Must have been hell to be that guy's editor*.

*) I'm going out on a limb here and assume that editors like writers that make it easy for them. But maybe they like nothing better than really killing a text.
   78. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:50 PM (#4628350)
if we put Murray Chass and Rob Neyer in a room together
It would have to be Murray's mom's basement. Such is the life of bloggers.
   79. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:54 PM (#4628355)
Swedish

the new York times gave time to selena Roberts in their sports section

that person wouldn't know facts from a boll weevil
   80. LargeBill Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:11 PM (#4628370)
79. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:54 PM (#4628355)
Swedish

the new York times gave time to selena Roberts in their sports section

that person wouldn't know facts from a boll weevil


Believe that discredited rag also employed Jayson Blair. Though in their defense, they fired him when his made up stories were found out.
   81. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:23 PM (#4628389)
Believe that discredited rag also employed Jayson Blair.


And Judy Miller!
   82. cardsfanboy Posted: January 02, 2014 at 02:28 PM (#4628393)
Does everyone agree that the percentage of players from each decade should remain the same, instead of the number of players? I feel like there should be a constant number of players from each decade (roughly speaking), not a constant percentage.


I don't think there is any reason to think that there is a constant number or percentage. As Jack Morris is showing,(and to a lesser degree Dave Concepcion) there is lulls and peaks in talent and even health. Arguably the reason that Morris is getting such press is because he timed being healthy in an era where pitching usage was changing and other pitchers couldn't cope. So among his contemporaries you have peaky guys with significantly shorter careers. So basically Morris is on the very short list of career candidates from his decade.

Concepcion was a slightly better than average hitter for his position, in an era where nobody was that good of an offensive force at short, and people use that to argue for Concepcion...Now I realize that is different than arguing for number of players(as I'm talking about position scarcity) but it highlights that there are variables that can affect the number of real candidates.

I do not believe that there is an reason to assume that that every era should have similar amount of representatives. Whether it's percentage or a number.
   83. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 02, 2014 at 03:30 PM (#4628472)
Anti-PED hysteria is the new McCarthyism, and Chase (& Pearlman) are among its most zealous practioners. However, there appears to be a considerable amount of ageism associated with some of the comments here. Murray's age is not the cause of his ill-conceived views.
   84. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 02, 2014 at 03:31 PM (#4628474)
Murray's age is not the cause of his ill-conceived views.


We can't know this without the most up to date polls filtered through the "what we want to believe" lens.
   85. alilisd Posted: January 02, 2014 at 03:34 PM (#4628481)
Be interesting to see percentage of players from each decade that are in the HOF.


Isn't this more or less what Dave Cameron did just the other day? I guess he did it by birth decade, but it's probably not hard to go from there to where you want to be.
   86. Mike Emeigh Posted: January 02, 2014 at 03:41 PM (#4628486)
I think the ideal is somewhere between these two extremes. The number of hall of famers should be gradually increasing from decade to decade, but short of keeping up with the rate of increase in the number of players.

This is advocating a timeline effect, inducting a few more players with each generation as the game evolves and advances. And it's not linear either, as the game advances in fits and starts, at times regressing slightly.


I can see an argument for the raw numbers not increasing significantly either.

Excluding the relievers, there is only one pitcher in the HoF that has thrown fewer than 2000 innings in his career: Dizzy Dean. The number of pitchers who last long enough to throw 2000 innings in a career has been declining. 51 of 609 pitchers who debuted between 1965 and 1974 threw 2000 innings in their careers; between 1975 and 1984, 43 of 668; and between 1985 and 1994, 37 of 828. So far, 27 pitchers of the 1163 who debuted between 1995 and 2004 have 2000 or more innings, and there are eight or nine more who have decent chances to get there. Since 2005, 1110 pitchers have debuted; barring injury Felix and Verlander will get past 2000 next year and Cain, Erwin Santana, Shields, and Hamels will probably get there in 2015. Kershaw's about four years away. There will be others, but right now it looks like maybe about 25-30 pitchers are going to have careers that match the length typically considered for HoF inclusion.

For position players it's a little more complicated. Other than Kirby Puckett, every position player who has made the HoF and who debuted after 1965 had at least 8500 PAs (and to make it with fewer than about 9500 you basically have to play a premium defensive position). There are 19 players who debuted between 1995 and 2004 who have had at least 8500 PAs, but only 3 over 9500. Beltre, Ichiro (who is a special case), and Konerko will get to 9500 next year, Carlos Beltran could make it if he's healthy (he's 551 PA away) as could Jimmy Rollins (598). Pujols is two healthy seasons away, David Ortiz about 2 1/2. 18 players who debuted between 1985 and 1994 have over 9500 PA, and Bagwell is just short. There are 15 players over 9500 with debuts between 1975 and 1984, although Sandberg made it to the HoF with 9282. Obviously we need to wait and see, but it doesn't seem like the pool of hitting candidates from which HoF inductees are normally drawn is increasing rapidly, either.

So if you're going to say that the percentage of players from each generation should be roughly the same - or that the percentage of players can grow less but the raw number of players should grow more - you're also saying that the de facto playing time standard that the HoF has applied to players of more recent vintage should be lowered. I'm not saying that's necessarily wrong - certainly there are a fair number of players with fairly short careers in the HoF, many of whom even belong there :) But I think it is an issue that should be addressed up front.

-- MWE
   87. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: January 02, 2014 at 03:46 PM (#4628488)
sorry davo, think on this one you are way off the mark

You're probably right when it comes to Mr. Chass. Some guys are just pricks.

But, jeez, I'd really hate to believe that the Internet is actually a good representative sample for the amount of empathy and decency people have towards one another in their day-to-day conversations, ya know?
   88. jdennis Posted: January 02, 2014 at 03:52 PM (#4628495)
Neyer used to vote, and does not anymore. He let his BBWAA membership expire in protest of something, I forget what.
   89. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: January 02, 2014 at 04:00 PM (#4628504)
Errr, I mean I do talk to plenty of people in sports media I strongly disagree with, not that I sleep with plenty of people in sports media I strongly disagree with.


So the number is something lower than "plenty."

I believe he's saying agreement is a prerequisite.
   90. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 02, 2014 at 04:01 PM (#4628507)
But, jeez, I'd really hate to believe that the Internet is actually a good representative sample for the amount of empathy and decency people have towards one another in their day-to-day conversations, ya know?


I'm actually more polite on the internet.
   91. Monty Posted: January 02, 2014 at 04:03 PM (#4628511)
That actually is a popular exercise among bloggers because they are jealous of the baseball writers who get to vote. They think they can do better, but they can’t vote and it pains them.


I enjoy this rhetorical flourish, where he insists that he is a "writer" but Rob and Craig are "bloggers" even though all three of them are writing on the Internet, and he's the only one not doing it on a professional basis.

However, I don't think there's anything wrong with being a blogger.
   92. Ron J2 Posted: January 02, 2014 at 04:16 PM (#4628527)
#60 I've brooded on this for some time and I think I agree that a constant number is better. Or perhaps a constant number with some sort of timelining support. So a perhaps 10% more players from the 60s than the 30s.
   93. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2014 at 04:20 PM (#4628534)
Neyer used to vote, and does not anymore. He let his BBWAA membership expire in protest of something, I forget what.

that cannot be correct. he just earned his bbwaa membership a few eyars ago and won't be eligible to vote for the hof until i think after 2020
   94. TJ Posted: January 02, 2014 at 04:26 PM (#4628543)
Errr, I mean I do talk to plenty of people in sports media I strongly disagree with, not that I sleep with plenty of people in sports media I strongly disagree with.


I would, if they were hot, and so would the rest of you. Admit it, we've all slept with someone we didn't agree with because they were hot...

Murray's age is not the cause of his ill-conceived views.


True enough- Chass has been an asshat for decades. Problem for him is he can't bully people on the internet into silence like a could do in a newsroom.

Now you tell me. What the hell am I supposed to do with the warehouse full of DVDs?

Thailand. You can sell anything in Thailand.


Best line of the day so far along with the "Meet in Murray's mom's basement"...
   95. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2014 at 04:27 PM (#4628544)
neyer was admitted into the bbwaa in 2008
   96. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2014 at 04:27 PM (#4628546)
so neyer will be able to vote before 2020. hooray for rob
   97. base ball chick Posted: January 02, 2014 at 04:42 PM (#4628565)
Rickey! isn't one to complain... Posted: January 02, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4628325)

I don't think hot Shaunghnessy on Szymborski action is going to sell.


laughing

ah, days are much more interesting with sam in em
   98. cmd600 Posted: January 02, 2014 at 05:34 PM (#4628601)
neyer was admitted into the bbwaa in 2008


Neyer is officially out.
   99. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2014 at 06:19 PM (#4628638)
cmd

ok. don't know how i missed that. but he didn't quit. another weird bbwaa decision

pathetic really
   100. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 02, 2014 at 06:26 PM (#4628643)
ok. don't know how i missed that. but he didn't quit. another weird bbwaa decision


I thought once you got BBWAA membership you were eligible to keep it forever. Isn't there a Hall-of-Fame voter who's a political cartoonist in Montreal? I know the Trib's Olympics writer has a Hall-of-Fame vote. Or is it just Hall-of-Fame votes that you get to keep forever?
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