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Sunday, November 18, 2012

Murray Chass on Baseball: ERIC GAGNE AND HGH

SEARING AZELAIC ACID TONGUE CAN BE A VERY EFFECTIVE ACNE CREAM, MR. PRESIDENT.

Meanwhile, we’re getting closer to the moment of truth for Mike Piazza. His name, for the first time, will be on the Hall of Fame ballot voters will soon receive, and his book is supposed to be out in February.

The book has been kept hush-hush, the better for voters not to know if he admits in the book to using steroids use.

A bad scenario for the voters: they elect him, then learn from the book that he used steroids.

A bad scenario for Piazza: he is not elected on the first ballot, and his admission in print bars him from ever gaining election.

A good scenario for voters: enough vote for him to keep him eligible for future ballots until the book is published and we see what he says about steroids.

A good scenario for Piazza: he finds a way to prove he never used steroids, and the tell-tale acne that covered his back and disappeared only when baseball began testing for steroids was just a delayed case of teen-age acne.

Repoz Posted: November 18, 2012 at 07:56 AM | 37 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blackhead, dunderhead, steroids

Reader Comments and Retorts

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. HowardMegdal Posted: November 18, 2012 at 08:29 AM (#4305455)
Just a reminder that actually, even Chass' evidence isn't really evidence.

http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/sports/2012/06/6007533/murray-chass-convicts-mike-piazza-acne-will-hall-fame-do-same
   2. adenzeno Posted: November 18, 2012 at 09:16 AM (#4305460)
Hmm let's see, you are a male who catches wearing undershirt/sleeves, a uniform, chest protector, every day, in the heat of the summer, and you get acne....Yep, that must prove it...Geeez
   3. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 18, 2012 at 10:10 AM (#4305473)
Still with this "smoking back" theory? Piazza's pimples must have spelled out "FUCK YOU MURRAY."
   4. dejarouehg Posted: November 18, 2012 at 10:11 AM (#4305474)
Given the usual predisposition here to trash Chass (and Pearlman who was big on this story as well - see below), I think you are really letting that cloud your objectivity. IS the evidence circumstantial, absolutely. Short of seeing someone actually do it or a blood test, it usually us.

But, it's not just a couple of folks who have accused him and he never, to my knowledge, denied his off the record comments to reporters. (You could fairly argue why should he if it was OTR?)

You may not care whether or not he did PED's or their impact (for those of you who preposterously believe it doesn't benefit the user,) but he more than most didn't bother denying it - he just went silent.

In The Rocket That Fell to Earth by Jeff Pearlman, Piazza was said to have told reporters, off record, that he used PEDs and two fellow ball players—one unnamed, the other was Reggie Jefferson—confirmed this. Jefferson was quoted as saying, "He's a guy who did it, and everybody knows it. It's amazing how all these names, like Roger Clemens, are brought up, yet Mike Piazza goes untouched." A couple NY-area writers, Joel Sherman and Murray Chass, noticed his bad case of back acne; a supposed side effect of juicing, but still nothing solid.
   5. Lassus Posted: November 18, 2012 at 10:21 AM (#4305477)
You may not care whether or not he did PED's or their impact

So you've got "never denied it", "Reggie Jefferson said" and "back acne" x 2.
   6. Downtown Bookie Posted: November 18, 2012 at 10:26 AM (#4305480)
Given the usual predisposition here to trash Chass (and Pearlman who was big on this story as well - see below), I think you are really letting that cloud your objectivity.


Just my opinion, of course, but when a blogger consistently writes misinformed and factually inaccurate pieces, rejecting what that blogger has to say is the objectively correct thing to do.

But, again, that's just my opinion.

DB
   7. Downtown Bookie Posted: November 18, 2012 at 10:30 AM (#4305481)
You may not care whether or not he did PED's or their impact (for those of you who preposterously believe it doesn't benefit the user,) but he more than most didn't bother denying it - he just went silent.


The correct response to this statement is "Roger Clemens".

DB
   8. jcnyc Posted: November 18, 2012 at 10:33 AM (#4305485)
I'm just wondering how RJ would know. As far as I can see, they never played in the same league together, much less the same team. I suppose they could have been in winter ball somewhere together, or RJ could just be repeating something someone else said, or making it up. Of course it's not implausible that two players would know each other even if they never crossed paths on the field, but having a connection would add at least a little credence.
   9. Dale Sams Posted: November 18, 2012 at 10:41 AM (#4305491)
Piazza did PEDs.

..but pointing at acne and screaming "WITCH!" is not the way to go.
   10. bobm Posted: November 18, 2012 at 11:30 AM (#4305504)
[8] That's what the Oracle of Baseball at B-R is for. :-)

Oracle of Baseball

Chain from Reggie Jefferson to Mike Piazza  
Reggie Jefferson played with Billy Ashley for the 1998 Boston Red Sox
Billy Ashley played with Mike Piazza for the 1994 Los Angeles Dodgers

Reggie Jefferson played with Darren Lewis for the 1998 Boston Red Sox
Darren Lewis played with Mike Piazza for the 1997 Los Angeles Dodgers

Mike Piazza played with Butch Huskey for the 1998 New York Mets
Butch Huskey played with Reggie Jefferson for the 1999 Boston Red Sox

Mike Piazza played with Brian Daubach for the 1998 Florida Marlins 
Brian Daubach played with Reggie Jefferson for the 1999 Boston Red Sox

Mike Piazza played with Chad Fonville for the 1997 Los Angeles Dodgers
Chad Fonville played with Reggie Jefferson for the 1999 Boston Red Sox

Mike Piazza played with Mark Guthrie for the 1996 Los Angeles Dodgers
Mark Guthrie played with Reggie Jefferson for the 1999 Boston Red Sox

Mike Piazza played with Ramon Martinez for the 1996 Los Angeles Dodgers
 Ramon Martinez played with Reggie Jefferson for the 1999 Boston Red Sox

Mike Piazza played with Ricky Trlicek for the 1993 Los Angeles Dodgers
Ricky Trlicek played with Reggie Jefferson for the 1997 Boston Red Sox

Mike Piazza played with Pedro Martinez for the 1993 Los Angeles Dodgers
Pedro Martinez played with Reggie Jefferson for the 1999 Boston Red Sox

Mike Piazza played with Bob Ojeda for the 1992 Los Angeles Dodgers
Bob Ojeda played with Reggie Jefferson for the 1993 Cleveland Indians

Etc.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/oracle/
   11. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 18, 2012 at 11:32 AM (#4305507)
I just KNEW Ricky Trlicek was a rat!
   12. valuearbitrageur Posted: November 18, 2012 at 11:52 AM (#4305516)
If a player played in the 90s, he did PEDs.
   13. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: November 18, 2012 at 12:13 PM (#4305520)
I've heard rumors about Piazza.
   14. valuearbitrageur Posted: November 18, 2012 at 12:35 PM (#4305524)
In The Rocket That Fell to Earth by Jeff Pearlman, Piazza was said to have told reporters, off record, that he used PEDs and two fellow ball players—one unnamed, the other was Reggie Jefferson—confirmed this. Jefferson was quoted as saying, "He's a guy who did it, and everybody knows it. It's amazing how all these names, like Roger Clemens, are brought up, yet Mike Piazza goes untouched." A couple NY-area writers, Joel Sherman and Murray Chass, noticed his bad case of back acne; a supposed side effect of juicing, but still nothing solid.


Except that other un-named sources have confirmed that Piazza was so concerned about the perception of his steroid use by the management of the Mets and Dodgers he voluntarily underwent random testing for both teams, both in-season and out of season. If the players union had found out, they would have gone ballistic, which pretty much explains why it was done in secret.

Given that numerous former players have said, off the record, that Reggie Jackson openly brags about his agenda to destroy any NY sluggers whose popularity threatens to approach his, I think your "evidence" is heretofore destroyed.
   15. Darren Posted: November 18, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4305532)
The whole "Piazza is going to admit using in his book" bit is entirely a fantasy of Chass's, right?

A good scenario for Piazza: he finds a way to prove he never used steroids, and the tell-tale acne that covered his back and disappeared only when baseball began testing for steroids was just a delayed case of teen-age acne.

Another good scenario: Chass finds a way to prove he's not a child molester.
   16. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 18, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4305534)
Given that numerous former players have said, off the record, that Reggie Jackson openly brags about his agenda to destroy any NY sluggers whose popularity threatens to approach his, I think your "evidence" is heretofore destroyed.


Though often combined for fund-raising purposes by Democrats, Mssrs. Jackson and Jefferson were two different people both on the list of presidents and on the baseball diamond. I think your destructive effort is heretofore kinda embarassing. (-:

(Not this is in any way in support of the evidence-free case against Mr. Piazza).

   17. Dale Sams Posted: November 18, 2012 at 01:05 PM (#4305541)
I read it as Jackson also for a split second. Had i just woken up, there's a chance it would have stuck long rnough to write a blurb, then do an Emily Litella later.
   18. Bob Tufts Posted: November 18, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4305545)
Piazza also had the deny rumors that he was gay.

Since we have no way to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt (unless backne is somehow correlated), I guess those sportswriters that oppose his admission into the Hall of Fame are homophobic bigots.
   19. The District Attorney Posted: November 18, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4305569)
The whole "Piazza is going to admit using in his book" bit is entirely a fantasy of Chass's, right?
Yeah. His certainty that something he made up is going to happen, is really weird.
   20. Darren Posted: November 18, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4305574)
These are the ramblings of a crazy person. That's all I'm saying.
   21. Monty Posted: November 18, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4305587)
A good scenario for voters: enough vote for him to keep him eligible for future ballots until the book is published and we see what he says about steroids.


So...if he says "Nope! Didn't do it!" what happens, in the Chass reality?
   22. President of the David Eckstein Fan Club Posted: November 18, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4305593)
It proves that he's not willing to be honest with the American public, obviously
   23. JJ1986 Posted: November 18, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4305596)
If Piazza was waiting to admit steroid use until after he was elected to the Hall of Fame, I don't think he'd be putting it in a book coming out before he's definitely in.
   24. akrasian Posted: November 18, 2012 at 04:18 PM (#4305604)
I hope the book is about his many heterosexual escapades as a player, and how all the players would gather round and laugh at the idiocy of reporters for making up blatant lies. Perhaps with a few well corroborated personal stories that reporters wanted to keep under wraps about their own lives. That would be one of the greatest sports books ever.
   25. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 18, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4305610)
The book has been kept hush-hush, the better for voters not to know if he admits in the book to using steroids use.


Is there the slightest evidence that Piazza is going to admit steroids use in this book?

EDIT: Cokes.
   26. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: November 18, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4305612)
The statement that Piazza never denied roiding is false - he has categorically denied it. Don't let the facts get in the way of your witch hunt, though.
   27. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 18, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4305623)

If Piazza was waiting to admit steroid use until after he was elected to the Hall of Fame, I don't think he'd be putting it in a book coming out before he's definitely in.

I cannot possibly imagine that Piazza is going to admit to steroid use in his book, even if he did use, for that very reason.

I hope the book is about his many heterosexual escapades as a player, and how all the players would gather round and laugh at the idiocy of reporters for making up blatant lies. Perhaps with a few well corroborated personal stories that reporters wanted to keep under wraps about their own lives. That would be one of the greatest sports books ever.

I hope so too, although I also hope the book chronicles his life-long battle with bacne and other skin conditions, and how he overcame those to have a HOF-worthy baseball career and bang lots of hot women.
   28. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 18, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4305625)
Also, if he were going to admit steroids use, wouldn't it be important for advance book sales if they marketed this as "A surprising admission by Mike Piazza" or something?
   29. shoewizard Posted: November 18, 2012 at 06:21 PM (#4305652)
If a player played in the 90s, he did PEDs.


Well, it's a coin flip. Most likely half the players in the league during that era tried them at least.

This is such a distasteful business. On the one hand, Chase's crusade against Piazza is borderline criminal. It's truly disgusting. OTOH, does anyone here REALLY have the stomach for defending ANY player from that era with regards to whether or not they used ? The odds of being wrong are way too high.

   30. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: November 18, 2012 at 06:35 PM (#4305656)
he finds a way to prove he never used steroids,

Uh, what happened to innocent until proven guilty? I am sure Murray would appreciate someone needing to supply evidence of guilt if he were say, accused of being a child molester because he was standing near a pre-school.
   31. Walt Davis Posted: November 18, 2012 at 07:53 PM (#4305683)
OTOH, does anyone here REALLY have the stomach for defending ANY player from that era with regards to whether or not they used ?

I don't find this hard:

is there evidence he used? No. Move along.

There is a reason accusers are supposed to provide the evidence. In this case, there is nothing to defend Piazza against so there is no moral qualm for me to have.

I could understand if Piazza was accused of something truly heinous like Sandusky because the stakes are higher (if you will) and you don't want to be on the wrong side of that one.

Well, it's a coin flip. Most likely half the players in the league during that era tried them at least.

If you include legal use (e.g. via the DR) and unintentional use (i.e. tainted supplements), I'm pretty sure it's a lot higher than that. I am confident that almost every professional athlete is doing as much as they possibly can while staying within the (self-defined) rules.
   32. Walt Davis Posted: November 18, 2012 at 07:57 PM (#4305686)
By the way, not wanting to give Chass the click-through, but what does any of this have to do with Eric Gagne and HGH? Gagne and Piazza weren't ever even teammates ... and HGH is not performance-enhancing to the best of anybody's knowledge (unless there have been new studies).
   33. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: November 18, 2012 at 08:26 PM (#4305696)
If a player played in the 90s, he did PEDs.


And Piazza has never denied playing in the 90s.
   34. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: November 18, 2012 at 08:33 PM (#4305701)
I'm just wondering how RJ would know. As far as I can see, they never played in the same league together, much less the same team. I suppose they could have been in winter ball somewhere together, or RJ could just be repeating something someone else said, or making it up. Of course it's not implausible that two players would know each other even if they never crossed paths on the field, but having a connection would add at least a little credence.
An unsubstantiated claim from a single source is never credible, to me. There are too many reasons one person can have to smear someone else, especially a public figure who comes into contact (albeit often peripherally) with thousands of people.

Then again, I'm one of those peculiar people who hear an accusation not as "Anne did something", but as "Bob said Anne did something". Drives my female friends crazy, when they hear accusations of sexual misconduct and worse against men. "But why would she lie??" is the most common follow up.
   35. Good cripple hitter Posted: November 18, 2012 at 08:42 PM (#4305702)
By the way, not wanting to give Chass the click-through, but what does any of this have to do with Eric Gagne and HGH?


It probably has something to do with both of them having biographies released. Gagné's book talked about his HGH use, and Chass believes that Piazza's book will be similar.
   36. Bob Tufts Posted: November 18, 2012 at 09:42 PM (#4305728)
If a player played in the 90s, he did PEDs.


If a sportswriter went to college in the 70's or 80's, they probably did cocaine.


   37. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: November 18, 2012 at 11:09 PM (#4305752)
If a sportswriter went to college in the 70's or 80's, they probably did cocaine.
That their friends with real jobs actually paid for.

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