BBTF's Newsblog Discussion :: Murray Chass on Baseball: STAN MUSIAL NO MAN OF HONOR, MR. PRESIDENT

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Thursday, March 24, 2011

Murray Chass on Baseball: STAN MUSIAL NO MAN OF HONOR, MR. PRESIDENT

This is more outrageous than Borrah Minevitch and his Harmonica Rascals complete career!

With the economy and international turmoil, President Obama has enough headaches; he doesn’t need any more. But his staff has created one for him with its failure to investigate fully the career and life of Stan Musial before recommending him for a Presidential Medal of Freedom that Obama bestowed on him last month.

It turns out that the 90-year-old Musial is not the Saint Stan he is considered in St. Louis. For sure, Musial remains the great player he was in his Hall of Fame career and deserves all of the accolades he has received for his achievements in that career.

As a person, however, he left much to be desired. Marvin Miller raised the issue in a recent conversation and provided the evidence to make his case. It is a convincing one.

...“Curt Flood organized this group of African-American players,” Miller related, “He got together a group that had known Musial as a teammate and they thought it was appropriate that they should go. As he said to me, ‘We didn’t always dress up but that night we did. We wore freshly pressed pants, shirts, ties, jackets and off we went to help celebrate with our former teammate.

“When we got to the restaurant, the maitre d’ refused to seat us,” Flood told Miller.

“He said they wanted to know why that was,” Miller continued, “and the maître d’ finally pointed around the restaurant and said, ‘Do you see any black faces here?’ Flood said he asked ‘Is this your idea?’ No, he said. The owner had given him instructions. They left.”

Repoz Posted: March 24, 2011 at 04:45 PM | 271 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: awards, cardinals, hall of fame, history

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1. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:12 PM (#3777298)

As a person, however, he left much to be desired. Marvin Miller raised the issue in a recent conversation and provided the evidence to make his case. It is a convincing one.

So someone told Murray Chass that Marvin Miller told him that Curt Flood told him that a maitre d' told him that Stan Musial doesn't like black people? Case closed!

2. 'Spos Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:15 PM (#3777302)

Murray Chass on Baseball: BABE RUTH OBSCURE, LOUSY HITTER

3. SoSH U at work Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:22 PM (#3777311)

Oh, and Murray has it on strong authority that it was Musial who kept Marvin from getting in the Hall of Fame. He's sure this time's he right.

4. jingoist Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:24 PM (#3777312)

Ah yes; painting a wide swath with a semi-bristless brush.

My father-in-law used the N word during the 40's and 50's claiming that was the standard lingo in Pittsburgh in those days.
It was unacceptable in my house because my folks were ardent readers and, while self taught, were a bit more worldly than many blue-collar workers of the day.

Jim Crow attitudes still persist today in Pittsburgh; many didn't vote for Obama purely due to his mixed racial heritage.

Musial was a child of the 20's and 30's; tolerance for African Americans was in short order in the working class towns along the Mon river like Donora.

Not excusing any aberant behavior on Stan's part with my post; just trying to understand and explain the milieu into which Stan was born and raised.

5. Traderdave

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:24 PM (#3777313)

This seems to be the dumbest thing Chass ever wrote, but maybe I missed something dumber. I haven't been keeping up w/ Chass lately.

6. Bitter Calculus Instructor Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:24 PM (#3777314)

or sure, Musial remains the great player he was in his Hall of Fame career

He can still play like he did back then? That is impressive!

7. kthejoker Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:26 PM (#3777317)

Joe Black used to tell a story — he was pitching against the Cardinals, and as usual the taunts were racial. “Don’t worry Stan,” someone in the Cardinals dugout shouted, “with that dark background on the mound you shouldn’t have any problem hitting the ball.” Musial kicked at the dirt, spat, and faced Black like he had not heard anything. But after the game, Black was in the clubhouse, and suddenly he looked up and there was Stan Musial. “I’m sorry that happened,” Musial whispered. “But don’t you worry about it. You’re a great pitcher. You will win a lot of games.”

-- http://kate-my-mind.blogspot.com/2008/07/stan-musial.html

8. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:27 PM (#3777320)

Oh, and Murray has it on strong authority that it was Musial who kept Marvin from getting in the Hall of Fame. He's sure this time's he right.

He must be. The alternative is that he has some sort of axe to grind, and a good journalist would never do that. Only filthy bloggers do that.

9. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:28 PM (#3777323)

Musial had bacne.

10. Bob Dernier Cri

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:29 PM (#3777325)

From Joe Poznanski's 2010 Sports Illustrated feature on Musial:

"Stan Musial," his teammate Bob Gibson says, "is the nicest man I ever met in baseball." Gibson smiles. "And, to be honest, I can't relate to that. I never knew that nice and baseball went together."

...

"I'm sorry that happened," [Brooklyn pitcher Joe] Black remembered Musial whispering [about racist taunting from a Cardinal during Black's MLB debut]. "But don't you worry about it. You're a great pitcher. You will win a lot of games."

I've also read Flood himself quoted as admiring Musial; in fact, Musial's only enemy, living or dead, appears to be Joe Garagiola (long story, has to do with a business venture turned sour).

I think suggestions of Musial being racist are BS. In particular, I don't know where that anti-Jackie-Robinson stuff is coming from. I have never heard that associated with Musial. Everyone quoted to that effect here is an anonymous source explicitly said to have no direct knowledge.

Edit: Joe Black's favorite soft drink to kthejoker :)

11. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:30 PM (#3777327)

Wasn't Musial credited with preventing the Cardinals from boycotting a game against the Dodgers and Jackie Robinson?

Looking for a cite...

EDIT: Found a quote from Musial that there was no attempted boycott of the Dodgers and Robinson.

12. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:30 PM (#3777328)

I'm not going to click the article so am I right in assuming that Chass means to say Musial wouldn't serve black people in his restaurant? The excerpt is kind of muddled. Or was it just some random restaurant Musial happened to be having his shindig at?

13. bobm Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:31 PM (#3777330)

From TFA:

Musial, with a partner, had a restaurant (a “posh restaurant,” Miller said) in St. Louis called Stan Musial & Biggie’s. Flood and some of his teammates, also African-American and all former teammates of Musial, Miller said, made plans to attend a celebration at the restaurant. This was some time after Musial retired following the 1963 season.

Who was "the owner" who left these instructions? Was Musial involved, or an absentee partner?

I guess Chass thinks Mickey Mantle ran the front of house on Central Park South and Jack Dempsey ran his Times Square restaurant. Is he that naïve?

14. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:32 PM (#3777331)

I think this post moves Chass from "crank" all the way to "Simers-esque."

15. phredbird

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:36 PM (#3777336)

I think this post moves Chass from "crank" all the way to "Plaschke-esque."

ftfy.

come on, i read simers on occasion and seriously that is not his style.

16. kthejoker Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:38 PM (#3777337)

And just to stress:

Even if the poor son of a Polish immigrant growing up in late 1920s America had some beliefs in the supremacy of the white race, he certainly didn't show it on the field, and the fact that so many of the stories within this article are at worst completely fabricated and at best weak circumstantial evidence - when compared to someone from the same era like Dixie Walker - is reprehensible. This entire article casts tons of aspersions on Musial's character (using qualifiers like "no first-hand knowledge of the incident"), and then meekly retracts them *in the following paragraph*, and still expects to us to believe he "discriminated" against black people.

Disgusting.

Also, no, it is not ironic for a black person to give an award to someone who doesn't like black people, unless either a) the person he is giving it to is black, or b) the award is being given for hating to receive awards.

17. Moloka'i Three-Finger Brown (Declino DeShields) Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:39 PM (#3777339)

The poor guy is 90 years old. Couldn't Chass wait until the fella died to rip him?

18. 33Boots Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:39 PM (#3777340)

Some people believe that even earlier, in 1947, Musial displayed that view, opposing Jackie Robinson’s entry into the major leagues. When it became known that the Dodgers were going to bring up Robinson,” said a lawyer with no first-hand knowledge of the incident, “Musial tried to organize a boycott against playing them if he was on the team. Musial was outraged.”

Absolutely disgraceful reporting, or blogging, or whatever the hell Chass is doing.

19. Alex Vila Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:39 PM (#3777342)

I, unfortunately, clicked on the article, looking for the part where Stan explicitly told the maitre d' to refuse service to the black players. I seem to have missed it. Can someone point it out to me?

20. Gamingboy Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:39 PM (#3777343)

Chass: BROOKS ROBINSON A PRICK
Chass: ROBERTO CLEMENTE NOT A CHARITABLE PERSON
Chass: PEE WEE REESE ACTUALLY WAS CONDESCENDING

21. Guapo Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:39 PM (#3777344)

Stan Musial & Biggie’s

The first restaurant conceived to cater to sports fans and gangsta rappers.

22. Alex_Lewis Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:40 PM (#3777345)

What a cynical article. I'm ashamed to have read that.

23. The District Attorney Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:40 PM (#3777346)

TFA:

Musial, with a partner, had a restaurant (a “posh restaurant,” Miller said) in St. Louis called Stan Musial & Biggie’s.

If Musial was an owner, then I do think it'd be fair to criticize him for being a partner in a whites-only restaurant (even if the order was given by the partner.)

(And especially if it was "some time after Musial retired following the 1963 season"! Not that it would have been acceptable previously, but at least it would have been more understandable.)

However, Chass has become a total attention whore, and I don't trust him for a second. I do respect Miller, but we're still talking about hearsay from a 95-year-old. Someone needs to ask one of the players involved.

24. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:44 PM (#3777350)

come on, i read simers on occasion and seriously that is not his style.

You're right. On second thought, Chass is a lot worse than either Simers or Plaschke.

25. DCW3 Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:46 PM (#3777352)

I have a book on the history of the Cardinals that includes an interview with Flood where he says that he tried to go to Stan & Biggie's with a date in the early '60s and was denied service. The next day at the ballpark, Flood told Musial what had happened. Stan was "livid" and promised Flood he'd look into it, and the next time Flood went back to the restaurant, he was treated with extreme courtesy.

26. SoSH U at work Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:49 PM (#3777359)

The poor guy is 90 years old. Couldn't Chass wait until the fella died to rip him?

Speaking of 90-year-olds, he really ought to consider no longer taking Miller's phone calls. It's not really doing him any good.

27. JRVJ Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:50 PM (#3777361)

DCW3, if you have a chance, post the name of the book, the page and (if you are willing to), the quote.

That's the best way to combat Murray Chass - with direct evidence.

28. The District Attorney Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:52 PM (#3777364)

I have a book on the history of the Cardinals that includes an interview with Flood where he says that he tried to go to Stan & Biggie's with a date in the early '60s and was denied service. The next day at the ballpark, Flood told Musial what had happened. Stan was "livid" and promised Flood he'd look into it, and the next time Flood went back to the restaurant, he was treated with extreme courtesy.

If that's the story, well, Musial was negligent, but his reaction makes it inappropriate to call him "not a man of honor".

TFA:

The incident appears in some books about Flood, though in one book in a different form. In that version, Flood was with a date when they were not seated. But that author’s version didn’t come directly from Flood.

29. Alex_Lewis Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:54 PM (#3777366)

Chass: BROOKS ROBINSON A PRICK
Chass: ROBERTO CLEMENTE NOT A CHARITABLE PERSON
Chass: PEE WEE REESE ACTUALLY WAS CONDESCENDING

Chass: BIG BAMBINO? MORE LIKE BIG SHAMBINO
Chass: CHRISTY MATHEWSON WAS REALLY A JEW
Chass: JACKIE ROBINSON FOUND TO BE INVENTOR OF DOG FIGHTING
Chass: THEY SAY HEY KID IS MORE LIKE GIGANTIC COWARDLY ####### WHO IS A DISGRACE TO AMERICA KID

That was fun.

30. tshipman

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:54 PM (#3777367)

Pretty bad to not have verified the source. It would be better if the article had better reporting, including a comment hopefully by the ownership.

That being said, if what was said is true, then Musial certainly bears responsibility for owning a restaurant that wouldn't serve blacks. I won't judge him based off the rantings of a blogger, but if true, it's pretty bad.

31. Alex_Lewis Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:56 PM (#3777374)

That being said, if what was said is true, then Musial certainly bears responsibility for owning a restaurant that wouldn't serve blacks. I won't judge him based off the rantings of a blogger, but if true, it's pretty bad.

Plenty of athletes 'own' restaurants that they have no part of running. And it sounds like when he learned of it, he made a change.

32. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 24, 2011 at 05:58 PM (#3777378)

Chass: JACKIE ROBINSON - SECRETLY HATED BLACKS?
Chass: THE MOST HATED MAN IN BASEBALL: YOGI BERRA
Chass: CAL RIPKEN - WORLD CLASS LOAFER

33. Bob Dernier Cri

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:00 PM (#3777380)

34. Dan Szymborski

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:01 PM (#3777383)

I RECEIVED A TELEMARKETING CALL TODAY DAMN YOU ELISHA GRAY AND YOUR SUPPORT OF CAR WARRANTY SCAMS.

35. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:03 PM (#3777385)

What a cynical article. I'm ashamed to have read that.

I'm glad that I read only the excerpt, which was more than enough to know that Chass is a dirtball. This is about as low as a writer can get.

I have a book on the history of the Cardinals that includes an interview with Flood where he says that he tried to go to Stan & Biggie's with a date in the early '60s and was denied service. The next day at the ballpark, Flood told Musial what had happened. Stan was "livid" and promised Flood he'd look into it, and the next time Flood went back to the restaurant, he was treated with extreme courtesy.

And I've read that followup story in several different places, which makes it doubly obscene that Chass would repeat his story without even making a pretense of trying to verify its poisonous implication.

36. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:04 PM (#3777389)

I have John Holway's books here: Musial barnstormed in the 1940s against Negro All-Star teams, and in 1946 complained that he was getting less to play in the World Series than he would have barnstorming. (That story is told by both Verdell Mathis in Black Diamonds [153] and Hilton Smith in Voices from the Great Black Baseball Leagues [293].) Hardly the profile of a segregationist.

A lot of white ballplayers enjoyed the payday they got barnstorming with the Negro Leaguers without necessarily enjoying the close proximity. I think a better argument against Stan Musial has against this kind of attack from Chass is a lifetime of being a guy people genuinely seem to love, including the black ballplayers that were his teammates.

37. Guapo Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:06 PM (#3777394)

Chass: ED DELAHANTY - POLLUTER OF WATERFALLS
Chass: THREE FINGER BROWN - SELF-MUTILATING CHEATER
Chass: MOONLIGHT GRAHAM- THE MAN WHO QUIT ON HIS TEAMMATES TO BECOME AN ORGAN HARVESTER

38. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:06 PM (#3777395)

This is the worst kind of hatchet job. Completely based on third-party hearsay. WTF?

39. DCW3 Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:08 PM (#3777397)

DCW3, if you have a chance, post the name of the book, the page and (if you are willing to), the quote.

It's from The Spirit of St. Louis by Peter Golenbock. Pg. 442-443:

CURT FLOOD: "One night I decided to make a big impression on a girl by taking her to a famous restaurant.

"The maitre d' stopped me at the door.

"'Can I help you?' he asked, as if wondering why I was stupid enough to make a delivery at that hour of the night--and through the front entrance to boot.

"'I want a table for two,' I said.

"'I'm sorry,' he answered without sorrow. 'We don't serve you here.'

"Thank God I had the poise not to identify myself as Curt Flood, baseball star. The bastard might have given me a table.

"The next day in the Cardinal clubhouse I went to Stan Musial, one of the proprietors of the famous restaurant.

"'Stan, what kind of eating place are you running there?'

"He looked at me. 'What do you mean?'

"'They stopped me at the door. I tried to take a girl to dinner last night and they wouldn't let me in.'

"Musial turned livid. He said he'd look into it. I never raised the topic with him again, nor did he with me.

"When I returned to the restaurant a few years later, St. Louis was no longer so blatant a Jim Crow town. This time the man at the door nearly piddled with joy. It was 'Mr. Flood this' and 'Mr. Flood that' and 'Please let me kiss your fanny, Mr. Flood.' I accepted the adulation with practiced grace, as if it were my due. I assume that I would have been treated courteously, even if I had been a menial on his night out."

40. Alex_Lewis Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:11 PM (#3777399)

I don't typically email writers in response to an article, but I wrote a fairly hyperbolic letter to Chass after reading that link. I'll post it if anyone is interested. Definitely lost my cool for a second.

41. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn)

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:12 PM (#3777400)

If you're a caucasian of a certain age, then your grandfather was probably a racist by modern benchmarks. If Stan was indeed racially unenlightened in his younger years (neither I nor Chass nor Marvin Miller has any idea whether this is the case), which is thoroughly understandable given his era and environs, then by all accounts he reconstructed himself and rose above the low standards of his time. That says much about a man, and indeed that makes him a man of honor.

Also, Murray Chass can go #### himself.

42. Alex Vila Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:14 PM (#3777403)

Chass: ROGERS HORNSBY - THE PERFECT GENTLEMAN
Chass: ROY CAMPANELLA - CRASHED SO HE WOULDN'T HAVE TO PLAY
Chass: ALBERT BELLE - ACOLYTE OF CHRIS TRUBY

43. tshipman

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:17 PM (#3777406)

Wow. The follow up version of that story that DCW3 posted--just wow. That Murray Chass didn't bother to check the other side of the story before writing this piece is just inexcusable.

44. Mark Armour Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:17 PM (#3777409)

The story Chass cites here was in Flood's book, written forty years ago. At the time, Musial said that there was a misunderstanding, that Flood arrived after the kitchen had closed--it was apparently after 12:30 AM.

There are a lot of things to admire about Curt Flood's life and legacy. But many of his stories about himself do not hold up, to be kind (read Brad Snyder's fantastic book), and I personally would put little weight on his word here. I tend not to get involved in the anti-media threads, but Chass is really being irresponsible here.

45. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:17 PM (#3777407)

CHASS: RICKEY HENDERSON - IF YOU SPLIT HIM IN TWO YOU WOULDN'T EVEN HAVE ONE LUIS POLONIA

46. SugarBear Blanks

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:17 PM (#3777408)

Yeah, okay, but Chass here is channeling ... Marvin Miller. It's St. Marvin doing the smear job.

47. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:18 PM (#3777412)

SBB, you have NO IDEA what Miller said to Chass.

48. Alex_Lewis Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:19 PM (#3777416)

Yeah, okay, but Chass here is channeling ... Marvin Miller. It's St. Marvin doing the smear job.

I'm assuming that Chass twisted Miller's words.

49. jdbkaput Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:20 PM (#3777417)

"When I returned to the restaurant a few years later, St. Louis was no longer so blatant a Jim Crow town. This time the man at the door nearly piddled with joy. It was 'Mr. Flood this' and 'Mr. Flood that' and 'Please let me kiss your fanny, Mr. Flood.' I accepted the adulation with practiced grace, as if it were my due. I assume that I would have been treated courteously, even if I had been a menial on his night out."

Old-timey ghostwriting kills me.

50. Steve Treder Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:22 PM (#3777419)

There are a lot of things to admire about Curt Flood's life and legacy. But many of his stories about himself do not hold up, to be kind (read Brad Snyder's fantastic book), and I personally would put little weight on his word here.

This.

51. DCW3 Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:22 PM (#3777420)

Musial was a child of the 20's and 30's; tolerance for African Americans was in short order in the working class towns along the Mon river like Donora.

I'm sure you know more about the attitudes of the time there than I do, but it wasn't the South, either: Musial had African-American teammates in high school, including Ken Griffey Sr.'s father. So it wasn't like he was unused to playing with/against blacks by the time Robinson came along.

52. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn)

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:23 PM (#3777424)

CHASS: JIM ABBOTT - SECRET SECOND ARM

53. My Grate Friend, Peason's pants are rankled Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:23 PM (#3777425)

Chass: JOSH LUEKE – THE EMBODIMENT OF CHIVALRY
Chass: MIKE PIAZZA - NO BACKNE? THINK AGAIN, #############
Chass: NY TIMES - SUCK IT

54. Guapo Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:24 PM (#3777426)

Chass: OZZIE SMITH - PURVEYOR OF THE BLACK ARTS
Chass: TIM LINCECUM- IS THAT A DUDE OR A CHICK? I'M SQUINTING AS HARD AS I CAN BUT STILL CAN'T TELL
Chass: CORY LIDLE- INSENSITIVELY REMINDING US OF 9/11

55. SoSH U at work Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:24 PM (#3777427)

Yeah, okay, but Chass here is channeling ... Marvin Miller. It's St. Marvin doing the smear job.

Likely true, but largely irrelevant to whether we should be ripping Chass. It's Murray's byline.

This is the third time Murray has taken the word, without corroboration, of a bitter 95-year-old man with a spotty memory, and each time been exceedingly, thoroughly incorrect. At some point, you'd think he'd realize that ol' Marv isn't quite the reliable source.

56. Barnaby Jones Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:30 PM (#3777435)

I know this was mentioned upthread but it's actually even worse:

“When it became known that the Dodgers were going to bring up Robinson,” said a lawyer with no first-hand knowledge of the incident, “Musial tried to organize a boycott against playing them if he was on the team. Musial was outraged.”

Another lawyer, also with no direct knowledge of the situation, has studied the Cardinals in that time and has written about them.

What in the holy Sam Blazes kinda writing is that?

57. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:34 PM (#3777443)

Chass: JOE MORGAN - WHY DID HE WRITE THAT BOOK?
Chass: BUD SELIG - THE SECRET OF HIS UNSTOPPABLE CHARISMA
Chass: HANK STEINBRENNER - BREVITY IS THE SOUL OF WIT

58. Bob Dernier Cri

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:34 PM (#3777444)

Chass goes on to cite unknown (probably because unknowable) sources WRT the imaginary Robinson boycott, though – that's not Miller's story.

Shooty, I agree that barnstorming does not make you anti-racist; it's just that it's part of a pattern. Black players speak admiringly of Musial's talent in those barnstorming games; they realized the value of his presence in legitimizing their own talent. I don't get the sense that Musial was particularly notable for this (among other things, integration came early in his career), but he participated. Some white guys wouldn't.

59. Walt Davis Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:36 PM (#3777449)

Chass: ROB NEYER NEEDS AN EDITOR, NOT ME

60. cardsfanboy

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:40 PM (#3777454)

What in the holy Sam Blazes kinda writing is that?

I'm pretty sure all those "lawyer" quotes are attributed to Marvin Miller.

61. SugarBear Blanks

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:45 PM (#3777459)

SBB, you have NO IDEA what Miller said to Chass.

Chass cites a "recent conversation," and quotes Miller several times. I'm not sure what more you'd want, unless the entire body of journalistic convention is now subject to question -- in which case, no, I can't prove Chass didn't make it up.

Likely true, but largely irrelevant to whether we should be ripping Chass. It's Murray's byline.

This is the third time Murray has taken the word, without corroboration, of a bitter 95-year-old man with a spotty memory, and each time been exceedingly, thoroughly incorrect. At some point, you'd think he'd realize that ol' Marv isn't quite the reliable source.

Yes, Chass should be called on it; and yes, Marvin is a bitter man.

62. Gold Star for Robothal Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:45 PM (#3777460)

Chass: JIM ABBOTT NEVER RETURNED MY BEAR HUGS, MR. PRESIDENT
Chass: APRIL 25, 1976: THE DAY RICK MONDAY RUINED FATHER AND SON BONDING
Chass: GET OVER IT, PRIMATES: YOUR BELOVED JOHN BRATTAIN HASN'T WRITTEN ANYTHING HUMOROUS FOR LIKE A YEAR

63. cardsfanboy

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:46 PM (#3777462)

I'm surprised that Chass didn't bring up the fact that Stan used to smoke as another stain on his character. Too bad I wasted all my vitriol on Simers. I really can't get too fired up about this hatchet job now. Of course the entire article isn't nearly as one sided as the excerpt makes it out to be, but it's still a bunch of non-named sources, conjecture and hearsay.

64. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn)

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:47 PM (#3777463)

IIRC, Miller does not have a law degree. Not that Chass would know any better.

65. bunyon Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:48 PM (#3777465)

I actually think more highly of old timers born into an era in which it was okay, expected even, to be racist and bigoted who grew to understand what crap that attitude was. Those of us raised not to do this aren't "better" than others, merely raised a different way.

I liken it a bit to many of us born into an era where it was okay, expected even, to tease and harass gays (or, hell, even guys who were merely a little effeminate) who have come to understand that it is a gross distortion of decency to have that expectation.

Basically, there is little honor in simply holding to the ways you were taught as a boy. Some of those principles are, no doubt, honorable, but unless, as an adult, you evaluate your prinicples, dropping those that are abhorent while keeping those that are just, you don't deserve special credit for the honorable principles you do hold.

66. RB in NYC (Now with New iPhone!) Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:54 PM (#3777478)

CHASS: JIM ABBOTT - SECRET SECOND ARM

Winner!

67. Mark Armour Posted: March 24, 2011 at 06:59 PM (#3777482)

I actually think more highly of old timers born into an era in which it was okay, expected even, to be racist and bigoted who grew to understand what crap that attitude was. Those of us raised not to do this aren't "better" than others, merely raised a different way.

I agree completely with this. A few years ago Joe Garagiola was the banquet speaker at the SABR convention. There was at least one person who boycotted, might even have quit SABR, because of an incident that Garagiola had with Jackie R in 1947 (Robinson was spiked). First off, there are a lot versions as to what happened, or what might have been said. We don't know. But second of all, it was more than sixty years ago for crissakes. He was 20 years old then, has lived an honorable life, and headed up the Baseball Assistance Team for many years. Where is the balance here?

In the case of Musial, I doubt the story. But even if it were true, I am more interested in the Man's evolution than rehashing the mistakes he might have made.

68. My Grate Friend, Peason's pants are rankled Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:03 PM (#3777488)

Chass: BUCK O'NEIL - HISTORY'S GREATEST MONSTER
Chass: LOU GEHRIG - THE FIRST HUMBLEBRAGGER

69. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:09 PM (#3777492)

Chass: TOMMY LASORDA- SMARTER THAN 10 DOGS

70. Tom Nawrocki Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:09 PM (#3777493)

Chass: RAFAEL PALMEIRO - DOESN'T ACTUALLY TAKE INFIELD PRACTICE
Chass: JOHN KRUK - HAD TESTICLE REMOVED BECAUSE HE THOUGHT IT WOULD HELP HIM MEET CHICKS
Chass: RYAN HOWARD - SECRETLY HATES THAT KID IN THE RBI COMMERCIAL

71. Hexx Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:11 PM (#3777495)

Chass: MOTHER TERESA - HITCHENS DIDN'T GO FAR ENOUGH

72. Guapo Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:14 PM (#3777497)

Chass: RANDY JOHNSON- MY EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH THE BIRD HE KILLED
Chass: EDDIE GAEDEL- THE GRANDFATHER OF "MONEYBALL"
Chass: RAY CHAPMAN- GET UP AND WALK TO FIRST BASE, DAMNIT

73. phredbird

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:16 PM (#3777500)

I don't typically email writers in response to an article, but I wrote a fairly hyperbolic letter to Chass after reading that link. I'll post it if anyone is interested. Definitely lost my cool for a second.

i don't blame you, this is really a bad article. i'd be interested in seeing chass's response to your email, if any.

74. SoSH U at work Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:23 PM (#3777509)

I don't typically email writers in response to an article, but I wrote a fairly hyperbolic letter to Chass after reading that link. I'll post it if anyone is interested. Definitely lost my cool for a second.

No offense, but I think this does more harm than good (and probably goes a long way toward his stathead hostility). If you write a fairly hyperbolic letter where you lose your cool, then Murray can harp on the uncouth, (possibly) vulgar responses out there and skip over the meat of your objections. If you write a calm, rational one, he's got to deal with the substance.

75. Bob Dernier Cri

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:25 PM (#3777510)

Chass: KLEM CALLED THEM WRONG IN HIS HEART ALL THE TIME
Chass: LITTLE BOY TO JACKSON: I KNOW IT'S SO, YOU CREEP
Chass: ROY HOBBS SHOT SELF TO AVOID CUBS TRYOUT

76. vortex of dissipation Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:27 PM (#3777513)

Chass: ICHIRO - TOOK SECRET PHOTOS FROM THE SPACE NEEDLE TO HELP PLAN JAPANESE ATTACK ON SEATTLE
Chass: MADDUX - PROVIDED UMPS WITH HOOKERS AND BLOW TO GET MORE FAVORABLE STRIKE ZONE

77. cardsfanboy

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:28 PM (#3777517)

No offense, but I think this does more harm than good (and probably goes a long way toward his stathead hostility). If you write a fairly hyperbolic letter where you lose your cool, then Murray can harp on the uncouth, (possibly) vulgar responses out there and skip over the meat of your objections. If you write a calm, rational one, he's got to deal with the substance

agree 100% with this.
Of course the one thing about anyone getting upset by an article like this, is that it has nothing to with stathead hostility. I guess Chass is lucky that for the most part only stat heads read his blog or else I'm sure he'd be getting a lot of hostility from people in St Louis. I hope that Bernie and Goold get a hold of this and rip him for it.(of course this would help the blogger Chass get more hits to be criticized by a real newspaper writer)

78. SoSH U at work Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:34 PM (#3777523)

Of course the one thing about anyone getting upset by an article like this, is that it has nothing to with stathead hostility.

Obviously not. I just meant that I think when Chass posts one of his anti-stat scribes, any angry, name-calling, expletive-laden e-mails he gets in return take the focus away from the crux of the objection.

79. Bob Dernier Cri

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:34 PM (#3777526)

Chass: HARLEM YOUTH: MAYS USED CORKED STICK
Chass: BOB FELLER INVITED KIDS ONTO LAWN
Chass: HOWARD EHMKE OBVIOUSLY ON STEROIDS

80. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:34 PM (#3777525)

I am also a lawyer with no direct knowledge of anything, so if anyone would like to use me as a source to say disparaging things about Murray Chass, I would be happy to oblige.

81. Guapo Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:35 PM (#3777528)

Chass: I'M NOT DEALING WITH THE SUBSTANCE EVEN IF YOUR LETTER IS CALM AND RATIONAL

82. spike Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:35 PM (#3777531)

Good lord, it's patently obvious the man is just a troll at this point. Perhaps Chass' byline didn't carry quite as much cachet as he had hoped - this appears to be the latest pretty obvious attempt to get somebody, anybody, to pay attention to him.

83. My Grate Friend, Peason's pants are rankled Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:36 PM (#3777533)

Chass: MANNY RAMIREZ - MY FAVORITE PLAYER
Chass: JAVIER VASQUEZ - A LIST OF THE GREATEST PITCHERS IN THE HISTORY OF THE NEW YORK YANKEES
Chass: JOHN F. KENNEDY - WHY NO ONE TALKS ABOUT HIS DEATH

84. My Grate Friend, Peason's pants are rankled Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:41 PM (#3777537)

Chass: BOB FELLER INVITED KIDS ONTO LAWN

My favorite.

85. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:44 PM (#3777542)

The coward doesn't even let people post on his blog.

86. Guapo Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:44 PM (#3777543)

Chass: CURT FLOOD- THE MAN WHO TOOK HIS FRIENDS TO A RACIST RESTAURANT
Chass: MARVIN MILLER- DIVERTED PENSION FUNDS TO MEXICAN LEAGUERS
Chass: LAWYERS WITH NO FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUBJECT MATTER- HISTORY'S GREATEST RESOURCES

87. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:44 PM (#3777544)

Chass: LOU GEHRIG: MAJOR LEAGUE QUITTER
Chass: TED WILLIAMS: KOREAN MURDERER
Chass: BUCK O'NEIL PROMOTES SEGREGATIONIST MUSEUM

88. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:48 PM (#3777551)

From # 39:

"Musial turned livid. He said he'd look into it. I never raised the topic with him again, nor did he with me.

"When I returned to the restaurant a few years later, St. Louis was no longer so blatant a Jim Crow town. This time the man at the door nearly piddled with joy.

Worth noting that in the interval between the two incidents, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 became law, with public accomodations provisions that we take for granted today.

89. Alex_Lewis Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:48 PM (#3777552)

No offense, but I think this does more harm than good (and probably goes a long way toward his stathead hostility). If you write a fairly hyperbolic letter where you lose your cool, then Murray can harp on the uncouth, (possibly) vulgar responses out there and skip over the meat of your objections. If you write a calm, rational one, he's got to deal with the substance.

Probably! I'll post my letter because I'm a little proud of it.

Chass,

You have written some pretty reprehensible articles in your day. That you could sink to a new low is incredible, yet you have managed to do so. I hope that your article on Stan Musial's supposed lack of character finally exposes you for the hack you are. Fortunately, it is littered with factual errors, logical fallacies, and is based purely on hearsay, most of which is probably misquoted. That should make it easy for whoever decides to out or ruin you. Hopefully it will be the president, since you decided to invoke him in your headline. I would go on to say that you have shamed yourself, but it is probable that you have no shame.

I will end this note by saying that my sincerest hope is that you develop some sort of conscience and lose many hours of sleep over your wasted life. You have successfully made the world a slightly dumber place. No need to thank me for your epitaph: That one's for free.

Sincerely,
Alex Lewis

It made me feel better.

90. cardsfanboy

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:51 PM (#3777555)

Obviously not. I just meant that I think when Chass posts one of his anti-stat scribes, any angry, name-calling, expletive-laden e-mails he gets in return take the focus away from the crux of the objection.

again agreee 100% with this. A good response would have been quoting the quotes upthread from another book. Putting up the Quotes in this thread from players and pointing to all the confirmed counter examples to these hearsay examples. Nobody is a saint, but every single person (outside of Garagiola as mentioned) who has dealt with Stan says nothing but positive things about him. Miller is upset because Musial was on a board that negotiated poor pension rights(and feels it's because Stan was being a stooge for the owners), and of course Miller is a (justified)bitter old man.

Good lord, it's patently obvious the man is just a troll at this point. Perhaps Chass' byline didn't carry quite as much cachet as he had hoped - this appears to be the latest pretty obvious attempt to get somebody, anybody, to pay attention to him.

agree, Chass seems to have decided to go on a campaign of trying to say controversial stuff to up his page hit count. To a St Louis fan saying that Musial isn't a deserving human being of this award is about as controversial as you can get. I could understand knocking the award for being given to Musial over some other person in particular, but to say he doesn't have the honor worthy of this award is patently silly.

91. Hack Wilson Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:54 PM (#3777558)

I had no idea that Musial was this evil:

He performed on the television show Hee Haw and in 1994 recorded 18 songs that were sold in tandem with a harmonica-playing instruction booklet.

My God Stan, think of the children.

92. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: March 24, 2011 at 07:58 PM (#3777561)

Murray Chass is the Stan Musial of stupid ####.

93. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 24, 2011 at 08:05 PM (#3777569)

I just can't imagine anyone read that and thought "you know what, Murray has a good point. #### Stan Musial!"

94. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 24, 2011 at 08:05 PM (#3777571)

Chass cites a "recent conversation," and quotes Miller several times. I'm not sure what more you'd want, unless the entire body of journalistic convention

Chass isn't a journalist; he's a blogger.

is now subject to question -- in which case, no, I can't prove Chass didn't make it up.

The issue isn't so much whether he "made it up" -- though I'm not sure I'd put it past him -- as whether he reported it accurately. There's no reason to believe the latter, given his recent track record.

95. My Grate Friend, Peason's pants are rankled Posted: March 24, 2011 at 08:06 PM (#3777574)

Chass: ELIJAH DUKES DESERVES SECOND CHANCE, MILTON BRADLEY SAYS
Chass: STEPHEN MALKMUS – THIS IS THE FAMOUS ROCK ‘N’ ROLL?
Chass: LEAVE IT TO BEAVER – HA HA, VERY FUNNY

96. Repoz

Posted: March 24, 2011 at 08:10 PM (#3777579)

Chass: tina-colin farrell sucked as hell

97. gef the talking mongoose Posted: March 24, 2011 at 08:10 PM (#3777580)

Chass: STEVE GARVEY ONLY SORT OF EVIL

98. True Blue Posted: March 24, 2011 at 08:15 PM (#3777589)

Chass wrote for the New York Times. No one expects logic, facts or honesty from that traitorous rag.

99. gef the talking mongoose Posted: March 24, 2011 at 08:17 PM (#3777593)

Chass wrote for the New York Times. No one expects logic, facts or honesty from that traitorous rag.

I certainly haven't forgiven them for helping lie us into Iraq, either.

100. AuntBea Posted: March 24, 2011 at 08:26 PM (#3777603)

If you're a caucasian of a certain age, then your grandfather was probably a racist by modern benchmarks.

Grandpa is 99 this year and still volunteering 40 hours a week, traveling the country, sometimes driving his truck 4 hours a day on the freeways of south florida. Despite still being a delightful and educated man, with quite a bit of perspective, he can't watch football without making comments about the black players, and he says basketball is a "stupid" (or insert worse adjective here) sport. He also loves flirting with any and all young women--women under 60.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011

Murray Chass on Baseball: STAN MUSIAL NO MAN OF HONOR, MR. PRESIDENT

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