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Wednesday, February 25, 2009

Murray Chass on Baseball: No Book Burning But No Printing Either

Monday, we burn Miller; Tuesday, Tolstoy; Wednesday, Murray Chass…

If this is too much inside baseball, I apologize, but I am too devastated and outraged to write anything else at the moment. Major League Baseball, which can’t kill steroids, has killed the Red Book and the Green Book.

Baseball officials would say the books died of atrophy. No one was using them any more. But I used them, often on a daily basis. They sit on a shelf an arm’s length away from my desk. I can get them that quickly when I need information from them.

...Phyllis Merhige is senior vice president for club relations. “We asked the clubs, and they said we should do it online only,” she said. “Nobody wants them anymore. You’re the only person. I take that back. Marty Appel wanted one.”

...I don’t blame MLB for abolishing the books. I wish they hadn’t, but if they find that no one uses them, it’s just another unfortunate development of today’s coverage of baseball.

Younger writers, more attuned to the use of the Internet than their older colleagues, may not have a problem with the disappearance of the books. But in past years they didn’t have the Internet as an alternative reference site. They apparently just didn’t feel the need for any information the books provided.

That says more about them than it does about baseball’s decision.

Repoz Posted: February 25, 2009 at 12:28 PM | 41 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: baseball geeks, books, business, fantasy baseball, media

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   1. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: February 25, 2009 at 01:07 PM (#3085651)
AFAIC the highlight of the Red Books and Green Books was when a friend of mine and I snuck into the press box at DC Stadium after a Senators' game and grabbed some writer's Red Book, and discovered two unopened condoms tucked in the pouch in the back of the book. It was the thrill that comes but once in a lifetime.
   2. dlf Posted: February 25, 2009 at 01:14 PM (#3085652)
Until about a decade ago, the leagues gave copies of the Red and Blue books to the salary arbitrators. Around then, they switched to the Baseball Register. Then maybe 3-4 years back, they switched again to the Bill James Handbook. Pretty soon, they'll just wi-fi the hearing rooms and tell the panel to click on baseball-reference.
   3. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: February 25, 2009 at 01:31 PM (#3085655)
But in past years they didn’t have the Internet as an alternative reference site. They apparently just didn’t feel the need for any information the books provided.

Oh, come on Murray. They've had the internet since Al Gore was a rookie.
   4. tfbg9 Posted: February 25, 2009 at 02:34 PM (#3085681)
That says more about them than it does about baseball’s decision.



???
   5. HowardMegdal Posted: February 25, 2009 at 03:40 PM (#3085729)
Younger writers, more attuned to the use of the Internet than their older colleagues, may not have a problem with the disappearance of the books. But in past years they didn’t have the Internet as an alternative reference site. They apparently just didn’t feel the need for any information the books provided.

That says more about them than it does about baseball’s decision.


I mean, am I being silly taking this on? I have my rites of spring, too- I read Baseball Prospectus, Sickels prospect book cover-to-cover. This year, I added The Hardball Times baseball preview. My rite of every day is, of course, Baseball-Reference.com.

But is the point seriously that younger writers aren't steeped in information?

As to Murray's point about the disappearance of the Red and Green books and how that relates to the two leagues, I'm pretty sure the difference in colors is a bit less vital to that process than interleague play.

And while I appreciate the unique history of the two leagues, if they wanted to ban the DH in the American League tomorrow, I'd be all about ending the distinction once and for all, since there's very little left in the league distinction at this point anyway.
   6. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: February 25, 2009 at 03:57 PM (#3085771)
That says more about them than it does about baseball’s decision.


This phrase drives me absolutely crazy. What the hell does it mean? It's a lazy way of making some kind of vague innuendo about, well, what exactly? If you have a problem with the decision, then just say it. Use of this phrase illuminates exactly nothing. It's a fart on a page (or screen).

Maybe my objection to this phrase says more about me than it does the phrase, but it just seems like vague, crappy writing to me. Boooooo!
   7. Chris Needham Posted: February 25, 2009 at 04:04 PM (#3085783)
Maybe we should all chip in and buy Murray a printer?

I bet he could even take it down to Kinkos and have it spiral bound for under $20.
   8. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 25, 2009 at 04:09 PM (#3085789)
"Get off my lawn!", he added.

(Yes, cliched, but had to be said. How retarded is this column?)
   9. BDC Posted: February 25, 2009 at 04:24 PM (#3085806)
I am almost wholly electronic in my professional life (as one might guess from my being on BTF all day and can verify by a few clicks on my profile). But I don't think that Chass is being retarded here. Not only are books a great archival technology, but just the way they open and lie flat and their pages can be flipped back and forth is a way of delivering information that can't be duplicated on-line. I revere Sean Forman and am addicted to B-Ref, but even there the fact remains that there's something in the old encyclopedia pages that give all the rosters of all the teams on a single page that even Sean can't duplicate. Chass sounds to me like a very efficient user of book technology, and he is quite justified in mourning its passing.
   10. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: February 25, 2009 at 04:35 PM (#3085814)
Chass sounds to me like a very efficient user of book technology, and he is quite justified in mourning its passing
Which is fine. And I do understand that to a large extent. But that's an almost entirely different column from the one Chass has written, which seems to have been created exclusively to take a shot at the internet generation of writers, espcially since--as pointed out in #7--even Murray Chass could figure out how to get this information into book form.
   11. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: February 25, 2009 at 04:37 PM (#3085820)
Chass sounds to me like a very efficient user of book technology, and he is quite justified in mourning its passing.

From the article:

One explanation given for the elimination of the printed books is the repetition of some of the elements of the books. The previous season’s statistics, for example, are in the average book that is published after the season. Rosters of the 30 teams appear in the spring training media guide.


It seems like he could get the same stuff from the postseason book, the spring media guide, and last year's red and green books. Even if he really wants to avoid B-R at all costs, he's not really losing any information AFAICT.
   12. Ron Johnson Posted: February 25, 2009 at 04:41 PM (#3085825)
The one thing I found truly useful in the Red/Green books was the service time. Yes, you can get that at Cots, but I didn't know that until fairly recently.
   13. jwb Posted: February 25, 2009 at 04:50 PM (#3085833)
It's a lazy way of making some kind of vague innuendo about
someone who is not like you.
   14. KJOK Posted: February 25, 2009 at 05:34 PM (#3085882)
I wish he were outraged instead that MLBPressBox.com is no longer accessible to the general public, so 'regular fans' now can't even get access to the electronic version of these books.
   15. Tom Nawrocki Posted: February 25, 2009 at 05:45 PM (#3085902)
I haven't seen the Red and Green books in years, but one thing that I thought was really cool in there was the pronunciation guide to the players' names. Wah-keen AHN-doo-har.
   16. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: February 25, 2009 at 05:53 PM (#3085912)
I haven't seen the Red and Green books in years, but one thing that I thought was really cool in there was the pronunciation guide to the players' names. Wah-keen AHN-doo-har.

There was that, and there were usually capsule bios of all the newcomers on the roster, and a fair amount of non-statistical info that was nice to have together in one place (not to mention the condom holder).

But like nearly all publications of this type, pretty much everything in there is now easily available to anyone with an internet connection. Just about the only statistical info that's still worthy of printed format are the minor league stats that were always found in the old Spalding, Reach, and Sporting News Guides, and are now found in the Baseball America version. AFAIK even today there is no internet database for most older minor league stats (and certainly not the many thousands of photos), which is why I'm glad that I hung onto all those old guides.
   17. Repoz Posted: February 25, 2009 at 06:00 PM (#3085922)
I could see if Chass got worked up over the lack of Green on Red bookings...but not this.
   18. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 25, 2009 at 06:03 PM (#3085926)
"if they wanted to ban the DH in the American League tomorrow, I'd be all about ending the distinction once and for all"

Well, you've got my vote.
   19. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: February 25, 2009 at 06:09 PM (#3085938)
Chass sounds to me like a very efficient user of book technology, and he is quite justified in mourning its passing

Yes, it is a shame that books are going away, such as BPro, THT, Sickels, BA, BJ Gold Mine, and all the other baseball books that have stopped going to print.
   20. esseff Posted: February 25, 2009 at 06:16 PM (#3085954)
The one thing I found truly useful in the Red/Green books was the service time. Yes, you can get that at Cots, but I didn't know that until fairly recently.


That was my first thought as well. MLB doesn't publicize that info much, and the red and green books were the one place I knew I could find it.

My second thought was, what if the books were the source for Cot's? What then?
   21. esseff Posted: February 25, 2009 at 06:19 PM (#3085962)
Yes, it is a shame that books are going away, such as BPro, THT, Sickels, BA, BJ Gold Mine, and all the other baseball books that have stopped going to print.


Not to mention the Macmillan. Can still find a quick fact faster grabbing my '96 edition of the Macmillan off the shelf than I can clicking thru bb-ref. And, no, I am not Murray Chass.
   22. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: February 25, 2009 at 06:20 PM (#3085967)
My second thought was, what if the books were the source for Cot's? What then?

The may have been a minor source for Cot's, but it sounds like web surfing is the primary source. There was an article posted a while back about the guy who runs the site and his methods.
   23. TVerik Posted: February 25, 2009 at 06:21 PM (#3085971)
Oh, some people freaked out when the pocket calculator killed the slide rule. Get over it, and adopt.
   24. Bunny Vincennes Posted: February 25, 2009 at 06:37 PM (#3086011)
"if they wanted to ban the DH in the American League tomorrow, I'd be all about ending the distinction once and for all"

Well, you've got my vote.


Am I the only one who mourns the passing of the distinctness of the AL and NL?
   25. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: February 25, 2009 at 09:09 PM (#3086278)
Am I the only one who mourns the passing of the distinctness of the AL and NL?
No.

I am almost wholly electronic in my professional life (as one might guess from my being on BTF all day and can verify by a few clicks on my profile). But I don't think that Chass is being retarded here. Not only are books a great archival technology, but just the way they open and lie flat and their pages can be flipped back and forth is a way of delivering information that can't be duplicated on-line. I revere Sean Forman and am addicted to B-Ref, but even there the fact remains that there's something in the old encyclopedia pages that give all the rosters of all the teams on a single page that even Sean can't duplicate. Chass sounds to me like a very efficient user of book technology, and he is quite justified in mourning its passing.
If he had said, "I find the Red & Green books easier to use than bb-ref," I would not have called him retarded. I like books, too, and I even own a bunch of Red & Green books myself. I still often print things out when I want to read them, rather than reading them on the screen.

It's the "What does this say about <strike>kids</strike>sportswriters today?" that I found retarded.
   26. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 25, 2009 at 09:40 PM (#3086320)
I loved my 1977 American League Red Book I got at a game and have often thought of buying one back on ebay (and eventually will). There's nothing like being able to read a down-to-the-last-colored-thread description of the Seattle Mariners' inaugural uniform design.(**)

That said, I assumed for obvious reasons that they stopped publishing them sometime late in the last century or very early in the current one.

Get off my lawn seems about right.

(**) Which if memory serves was the primary source for Mitchell and Ness's modern remake of throwback unis.
   27. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: February 25, 2009 at 09:41 PM (#3086322)
Can still find a quick fact faster grabbing my '96 edition of the Macmillan off the shelf than I can clicking thru bb-ref.

OK, who won the 1999 AL batting championship? Took about 10 seconds on BB-ref to come up with Nomar. How's that '96 Big Mac doing?
   28. HowardMegdal Posted: February 25, 2009 at 09:47 PM (#3086330)
Which is fine. And I do understand that to a large extent. But that's an almost entirely different column from the one Chass has written, which seems to have been created exclusively to take a shot at the internet generation of writers, espcially since--as pointed out in #7--even Murray Chass could figure out how to get this information into book form.

Exactly.

Am I the only one who mourns the passing of the distinctness of the AL and NL?

Not at all. But my feeling is that the concept has been essentially eliminated anyway, why not get something useful out of a trade? I mourn the passing of Luis Castillo, too, but if the Mets could get a dependable right-handed bat for him...
   29. BDC Posted: February 25, 2009 at 10:13 PM (#3086371)
Fair enough, guys. OK, Chass is mildly retarded. But I still like books :)
   30. Repoz Posted: February 25, 2009 at 10:17 PM (#3086379)
I miss outside chest protectors.

EDIT: Might have been meant for the Maimed Van Buren thread.
   31. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: February 25, 2009 at 10:20 PM (#3086383)
I like books too. The problem with the Red and Green books appears to be that they did not evolve and were replaced in the market by different, newer books. It has almost nothing to do with the book format.
   32. BDC Posted: February 25, 2009 at 10:26 PM (#3086392)
Am I the only one who mourns the passing of the distinctness of the AL and NL?

I miss only one thing about it: the importance of winning a pennant. "The Giants win the LCS!" is not a particularly thrilling exclamation. And I think that in recent years the loser of the World Series has come to seem more and more like an also-ran and less like a champion in their own right. Interleague play is a major factor in that change; the expanded playoffs with Wild Card are a minor factor. YMMV. I actually like the three-round postseason; interleague play, meh.
   33. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: February 25, 2009 at 10:46 PM (#3086416)
Not only are books a great archival technology, but just the way they open and lie flat and their pages can be flipped back and forth is a way of delivering information that can't be duplicated on-line.

I agree. Sometimes it's easier for me to find a phone number in the phonebook thaan I can online. But more importantly, I might be reading something about Hank Aaron and something about David Aardsma or Don Aase might catch my eye.
   34. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: February 25, 2009 at 10:50 PM (#3086432)
That said, I have the 1975 books and find them more of a curiosity than something useful. Sporting News had better books.
   35. vortex of dissipation Posted: February 26, 2009 at 12:33 AM (#3086570)
I could see if Chass got worked up over the lack of Green on Red bookings...but not this.


That's what you're here for...
   36. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: February 26, 2009 at 12:44 AM (#3086583)
I have to agree with Bob Dernier Mauvais Goût. I deal with law texts. In books like American Law Reports and what not, you'll have what you're looking for placed within the context of other, similar things. So you can easily go back and forth.

With WestLaw or Lexis, you're much less likely to find something valuable by accident since it has no opportunity for open-ended browsing.

Sure, it's a sacrifice worth making 90% of the time, but every now and then...

Well, every now and then my sentences trail off, sucka'.
   37. Exploring Leftist Conservatism since 2008 (ark..) Posted: February 26, 2009 at 02:50 AM (#3086659)
Oh, some people freaked out when the pocket calculator killed the slide rule. Get over it, and adopt.
Um, how would taking in disadvantaged orphans help Chass recover his bearings wrt to losing his books?
   38. Srul Itza Posted: February 26, 2009 at 02:53 AM (#3086664)
How retarded is this column?

On a scale of 1 to Z, I give it a sigma.
   39. Srul Itza Posted: February 26, 2009 at 02:59 AM (#3086669)
Am I the only one who mourns the passing of the distinctness of the AL and NL?

Not at all. But my feeling is that the concept has been essentially eliminated anyway


This could be then next publicity stunt for baseball -- re-emphasizing the league differences. Do away with interleague play for a couple of years [my vote would for a permanent ed], go back to separate umpiring crews, league presidents, the whole nine yards.

After they milk it for all it's worth, they can reverse course again a few years after that.
   40. Meatwad denied pope, reveals he faked it at mass Posted: February 26, 2009 at 03:31 AM (#3086694)
they could market it as being back to our roots i think it would be a big hit and it would get rid of inter league play which would be best! plus then the all star game would have a bit more meaning in that its the only chance outside of the world series to see the leagues go at it
   41. Howie Menckel Posted: February 26, 2009 at 03:40 AM (#3086705)
Were the Red Book and Green Book ever for sale to the public?
That was the cool thing, I thought - tough to get a copy, and you had info the fans didn't.

But that's gone for good, mostly, which does not mean it's a bad thing.
But I wonder if that played into this screed at all....

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