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Monday, April 23, 2012

Murray Chass on Baseball: VALENTINE FEET STRETCHING HIS MOUTH

Get your MR. PRESIDENT ammo here!

If they somehow missed the critical elements of Valentine’s managerial history, they could do worse than read any of the columns I have written on the subject:

  IT DIDN’T TAKE VALENTINE LONG
  NEW SOX SPRING DRILL: INSERT FOOT A IN MOUTH B
  JETBLUE RED SOX SEEK EARLY COMEBACK
  TWO OF A KIND: VALENTINE, ROYSTER
  VALENTINE-RED SOX WED FOR BETTER OR WORSE
  WITH THIS WOULD-BE MANAGER, V IS FOR LOSER
  VALENTINE VEERS INTO FANTASY LAND
  GETTING IT WRONG ON SANTANA AND VALENTINE
  “V” IS NOT FOR VICTORY
  ADVERTISEMENT FOR HIMSELF

Repoz Posted: April 23, 2012 at 09:30 AM | 31 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, red sox

Reader Comments and Retorts

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Textbook Editor Posted: April 23, 2012 at 09:38 AM (#4113530)
It's really too easy at this point.
   2. Guapo Posted: April 23, 2012 at 09:51 AM (#4113534)
MAKE THE VOICES IN MY HEAD STOP, BOBBY V
THE TIME MY DOG TOLD ME TO KILL BOBBY VALENTINE
BOBBY VALENTINE: EVEN WORSE THAN STAN MUSIAL
   3. fra paolo Posted: April 23, 2012 at 10:03 AM (#4113546)
Chass also writes about the San Jose situation:
Santa Clara County was originally a shared territory between the Athletics and the Giants...In 1990 the Giants were unable to get a new park in San Francisco and wanted to move to Santa Clara or at least use it as leverage with San Francisco....Wanting to help the Giants, Walter Haas Jr., the A’s owner, magnanimously agree to give up his share of Santa Clara, getting nothing in return for it.
Arbitration between competing claims has been part of the commissioner's job since even before there was a commissioner, when there was a National Commission instead.
   4. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: April 23, 2012 at 10:11 AM (#4113553)
I had valentine feet once. It cleared a couple of weeks after I broke up with that girl, but it never completely goes away.
   5. zonk Posted: April 23, 2012 at 10:12 AM (#4113555)
Will someone please explain to Mr. Chass how to toggle the caps lock key off already...
   6. SoSH U at work Posted: April 23, 2012 at 10:19 AM (#4113561)
But there could be another explanation, one that would fit the Machiavellian motives of the manipulating Mr. Valentine. What if he left Bard in the game long enough to look bad and show the general manager who was right? Walk, single, walk, walk in a scoreless game.


Yes, I'm sure in the middle of a crappy start by the team, on the same day he had to apologize to his third baseman because of foolish remarks, he risked losing the game with a move that everyone in his brother questioned, because it WOULD MAKE HIS GM LOOK BAD.

That's genius.

   7. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 23, 2012 at 10:43 AM (#4113575)
I don't see a lick of evidence that Bobby Valentine has anything to do with the Red Sox' bad start.(*) They did the same thing last year and the roster isn't as good as last year's. The team played terribly in September and has continued playing terribly.

Theo Epstein definitely got out when the getting was good.

(*) And when exactly was it that a manager opining that a player wasn't as physically or emotionally into the game -- so as to try to light a fire under him -- became a capital offense?
   8. James Newburg is in awe of Cespedes' CORE STRENGTH Posted: April 23, 2012 at 10:58 AM (#4113591)
FEED ME A STRAY CAT, BOBBY V
   9. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: April 23, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4113610)
THESE PRETZELS ARE MAKING ME THIRSTY, BOBBY
   10. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: April 23, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4113617)
If Chass was doing these columns for a reputable sports blog network, they would be accompanied by amusing illustrations. Except the illustration for this one would be horrifying.
   11. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 23, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4113669)
If Chass was doing these columns for a reputable sports blog network, they would be accompanied by amusing illustrations. Except the illustration for this one would be horrifying.

You'll have to take that up with Chass's agent.
   12. LionoftheSenate (feels sorry for the Pirates) Posted: April 23, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4113714)

(*) And when exactly was it that a manager opining that a player wasn't as physically or emotionally into the game -- so as to try to light a fire under him -- became a capital offense?


Since America turned itself into a mob culture over the past 3-4 years fueled by social media.
   13. Bob Evans Posted: April 23, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4113730)
BOBBY V MAKES OZZIE GUILLEN LOOK LIKE CORDELL HULL
   14. Gotham Dave Posted: April 23, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4113741)
Good intentionally outrageous comment from LotS as usual, but is it offensive enough to anyone to get something started? And if so, what? Stay tuned, readers.
   15. Gotham Dave Posted: April 23, 2012 at 02:00 PM (#4113744)
And of course there's nothing wrong with Bobby V trying to motivate Youk, but aren't these generally considered closed-door matters? Otherwise I suspect we would see similar comments pretty much every day of the season from one skip or another.
   16. The District Attorney Posted: April 23, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4113748)
So apparently Jerry Royster had one very unsuccessful season managing the Brewers, and is now the Red Sox third base coach. I didn't know any of that until I looked it up just now, and I know absolutely nothing about Royster's personality or style. Comparing Bobby Valentine to him is not exactly a great way to make a cogent point about Valentine.

Is being "JetBlue" bad? I really like JetBlue. (Is he trying to say the Red Sox are cheap? That'd be a tough argument to make.)

As for "needling" Youk, obviously that type of thing comes off completely different from someone you barely know than from someone whom you have grown to trust.
   17. villageidiom Posted: April 23, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4113779)
I decided at the beginning of his tenure to give Valentine the benefit of the doubt. I know a lot of the info I was getting prior to his being hired was all about what Valentine thinks - he think's he's so smart; he thinks he's better than you; he prefers to manipulate people through the media; etc. None of what I heard had any kind of citations or examples of this behavior, only tautologies - he thinks XXXX, and to prove it I'll point out that he did YYYY, which some reasonable people do but he did it because he thinks XXXX, QED. All of it is based on conclusions of what goes on in Valentine's mind, which is obviously not knowable. So, I figured I should disregard the opining on Valentine's mind from the past and just start over.

The impression I have, based on what I've seen so far, is the following:

1a. Valentine is bright and honest, but is not the most gifted communicator.

1b. When he says something in a way that is not interpreted the way he intends it, he finds fault in the ineptitude of the person interpreting the message, and not with the person giving it. (He explicitly gave this message in spring training. If he says a fact, and someone misinterprets it, it's on them.)

1c. When was the last time someone in sports media misinterpreted what someone else said? If you ask the sports media, it appears as if it never has happened. If someone says they were misinterpreted, when does that ever change the message the media gives? When is that correction seen as anything other than an attempt to save face from the PR fallout?

All of the above creates a nasty feedback loop. There's a misinterpretation, and both sides blame the other. So, in the recent Youk kerfuffle, we had this:

a) question to Valentine: Youkilis doesn't seem like himself, does he?
b) Valentine: he doesn't, physically or emotionally. But he had a good day and hopefully he'll be doing fine going forward.
c) media: VALENTINE QUESTIONED YOUK'S EFFORT. TO US, NOT TO YOUK.
d) Pedroia: We don't do that kind of thing around here.
e) Schilling, Chass, etc.: I told you Valentine is no good.
f) Youk to Valentine: WTF?
g) Valentine to Youk: I wasn't questioning your effort. Remember when you told me you had a groin injury? You're physically not yourself. Y'know how down you are that you can't go full tilt because of the injury? You're emotionally not yourself. That's all I was saying. Sorry you had to endure those idiots who suggested I was trying to send a message to you.
h) Youk to Valentine: OK. Guess we're good.
i) Valentine to media: See what you did there? I answered a question honestly and you blew it up. Stop it.
j) media to Valentine: Did you tell Youkilis you were sorry?
k) Valentine: Yes.
l) media: VALENTINE APOLOGIZED TO YOUK FOR QUESTIONING HIS EFFORT, WHICH JUST CONFIRMS HE WAS QUESTIONING HIS EFFORT IN THE FIRST PLACE, MR. PRESIDENT
m) media (subheading): Sure, Valentine denies scheming in this way. But that's exactly what a schemer would do!

   18. villageidiom Posted: April 23, 2012 at 02:52 PM (#4113783)
Is being "JetBlue" bad? I really like JetBlue. (Is he trying to say the Red Sox are cheap?
I didn't click through. The Red Sox new spring training facility is named JetBlue Park, so maybe it's just a reference to that?
   19. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 23, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4113789)
vi, you got it down from a) to m), and you can use it as a template for just about every media-stoked "controversy". Valentine should have known how this was going to play out and he should've bitten his tongue, but I'm still glad I'm not a manager in Boston.
   20. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: April 23, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4113808)
17 is spot on.

Is he trying to say the Red Sox are cheap? That'd be a tough argument to make.


Sadly this is the prevailing wisdom in Boston right now. A high percentage of fans seem convinced that the Sox are cheap because they didn't spend any money this off-season. The $185 million payroll is not evidence that they are willing to spend.

It's fascinating sometimes.
   21. vortex of dissipation Posted: April 23, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4113938)
Is being "JetBlue" bad? I really like JetBlue. (Is he trying to say the Red Sox are cheap?


It's probably a reference to this.
   22. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: April 23, 2012 at 06:12 PM (#4114027)
And of course there's nothing wrong with Bobby V trying to motivate Youk, but aren't these generally considered closed-door matters?


This. I have bad days at work, but my boss doesn't talk about it on WHDH.
   23. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: April 23, 2012 at 06:40 PM (#4114052)
(*) And when exactly was it that a manager opining that a player wasn't as physically or emotionally into the game -- so as to try to light a fire under him -- became a capital offense?

There's a right way and a wrong way to do these things. The right way: Call out the talented Latin guy whose numbers don't quite match his physical ability (think Andruw Jones). The wrong way: Call out the heart and soul white guy on the team who sells all the jerseys (Chipper Jones).

Stereotypes exist, might as well use them to your advantage.
   24. bobm Posted: April 23, 2012 at 07:46 PM (#4114093)
Terry Francona on BBTN on Sunday:

As far as the Bobby thing goes, we've all been there. They are going to boo the manager. In 2004, 2 months into my new job (as Red Sox manager), I thought my name was 'You Suck,' because that's all I ever heard. Every time I left the dugout, that's what I heard. It'll change. When they win 4 or 5 in a row, Bobby will become a lot smarter."


http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox
   25. Downtown Bookie Posted: April 23, 2012 at 07:49 PM (#4114097)
I had valentine feet once. It cleared a couple of weeks after I broke up with that girl, but it never completely goes away.


When you walk, do you sometimes get a burning sensation in your feet?

DB
   26. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: April 23, 2012 at 08:02 PM (#4114099)
Tempted to boycott this team until it shuts the #### up.
   27. Gamingboy Posted: April 23, 2012 at 11:37 PM (#4114456)
IT DIDN’T TAKE VALENTINE LONG, MISTER PRESIDENT
NEW SOX SPRING DRILL: INSERT FOOT A IN MOUTH B, MISTER PRESIDENT
JETBLUE RED SOX SEEK EARLY COMEBACK, MISTER PRESIDENT
TWO OF A KIND: VALENTINE, ROYSTER, MISTER PRESIDENT
VALENTINE-RED SOX WED FOR BETTER OR WORSE, MISTER PRESIDENT
WITH THIS WOULD-BE MANAGER, V IS FOR LOSER, MISTER PRESIDENT
VALENTINE VEERS INTO FANTASY LAND, MISTER PRESIDENT
GETTING IT WRONG ON SANTANA AND VALENTINE, MISTER PRESIDENT
“V” IS NOT FOR VICTORY, MISTER PRESIDENT
ADVERTISEMENT FOR HIMSELF, MISTER PRESIDENT
   28. Chip Posted: April 24, 2012 at 02:02 AM (#4114508)
In the 9th of tonight's game against the Twins after Aceves gave up a deep fly ball to left center that went for the second out, but had everyone's hearts in their throats at the crack of the bat (there was a man on, so could have been a walk off), Valentine made a surprise mound visit. Aceves thought he was getting yanked. Instead, Valentine said something that had Aceves and all the gathered infielders laughing, then returned to the dugout. Aceves proceeded to get a weak grounder back to the mound for the high-leverage save.

After the game, NESN sideline reporter wanted to know what Bobby said to Aceves. "I asked him if he was trying to kill me."

   29. Guapo Posted: April 24, 2012 at 09:03 AM (#4114553)
After the game, NESN sideline reporter wanted to know what Bobby said to Aceves. "I asked him if he was trying to kill me."


It would have been justified under MLB's "stand your mound" law.
   30. SandyRiver Posted: April 24, 2012 at 12:11 PM (#4114704)
Once again Terry F. takes the right path - quite the gracious answer.
   31. Nasty Nate Posted: April 24, 2012 at 12:23 PM (#4114711)
I have bad days at work, but my boss doesn't talk about it on WHDH.


If WHDH was already covering your bad day on their broadcast, he/she might...

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