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Friday, June 27, 2014

Mushnick: Keith Hernandez goes from insightful to bully in one inning

The FB BULLY Project has 642,873 likes, so let’s keep at it!

But in the next half inning, he went from enlightened analyst to schoolyard bully Nelson “Ha-Ha!” Muntz. SNY presented a photo of Padres pitcher Alex Torres from the night before, wearing a cap that bulged at its sides from a protective liner.

Yes, Torres looked odd. Yet, clearly, if he were determined to diminish the chances of a fractured skull or brain injury from a line drive to the side of his head, his head, if not his cap, was on straight.

Well, Hernandez took a macho, style-over-function stance, mocking Torres for looking “absurd.” (The same was heard when batting helmets arrived then grew larger until they included earflaps and would be worn by base coaches.)

He wasn’t done. He suggested Torres and anyone who would wear such a thing are cowards: “If you’re scared, get a dog.”

Ugh! Either Hernandez was unaware of the dozens of annual, all-levels episodes that have pitchers rushed to hospitals — some with permanent neurological damage — or such episodes have not yet left an impression on him.

In Torres’ case, last year with the Rays, he replaced Alex Cobb after Cobb was nailed in the head with a line drive. After Saturday’s game, Torres recalled he still could hear the crack against Cobb’s head — and Torres was in the bullpen. “I’m glad he’s alive.”

Cobb, depending on how one looks at it, was lucky — he was out just two months.
Good Keith, bad Keith. For better and worse, he keeps both in the game.

Repoz Posted: June 27, 2014 at 09:38 AM | 82 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: media, mets

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   1. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 27, 2014 at 10:34 AM (#4737331)
Just another Seinfeld cast-member who isn't funny away from that show.
   2. base ball chick Posted: June 27, 2014 at 11:02 AM (#4737361)
the seinfeld show wasn't funny

any more than head injuries are funny. and yes we all know that the cap won't help with hits to the face )bryce florie) or side of the neck (coolbaugh)

and i am getting really damm tired of various males sneering that attempts to protect any other body part than the genitals is cowardly and/or female-ish. or both, seeing as how too many males use female or female genitals to mean cowardly
   3. Rough Carrigan Posted: June 27, 2014 at 11:37 AM (#4737380)
Who does he think he is?
   4. Howie Menckel Posted: June 27, 2014 at 11:40 AM (#4737382)

Keith is - usually - very funny on the Mets broadcasts. this is a miss, obviously

   5. John DiFool2 Posted: June 27, 2014 at 11:41 AM (#4737383)
the seinfeld show wasn't funny


Indeed.

url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny

   6. AROM Posted: June 27, 2014 at 12:08 PM (#4737405)
The jokes are old. It probably wouldn't be funny if I clicked on one of the reruns. But in its time Seinfeld sure was funny. At least I laughed. And I'm certainly not alone considering the ratings the show got. Hard to believe its been about 15 years since the show went off the air.
   7. haggard Posted: June 27, 2014 at 12:09 PM (#4737407)
They let you have a dog on the mound? Cool
   8. Jeff Francoeur's OPS Posted: June 27, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4737409)
A by-product of the hypermacho American culture.
   9. bunyon Posted: June 27, 2014 at 12:14 PM (#4737410)
Seinfeld is Derek Jeter.
   10. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 27, 2014 at 12:16 PM (#4737412)
The jokes are old. It probably wouldn't be funny if I clicked on one of the reruns. But in its time Seinfeld sure was funny. At least I laughed. And I'm certainly not alone considering the ratings the show got. Hard to believe its been about 15 years since the show went off the air.

It's still enough of a draw that it runs for two straight hours on TBS every night. I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't see the humor in it.

And Hernandez was beyond moronic with his comment about Torres. I'm sure that old Keith only wore a batting helmet because he was being forced to.
   11. JE (Jason) Posted: June 27, 2014 at 12:27 PM (#4737414)
A by-product of the hypermacho American culture.

Seinfeld may have been a lot of things but definitely not this. Oh, wait...
   12. Howie Menckel Posted: June 27, 2014 at 12:36 PM (#4737421)

"Seinfeld is Derek Jeter."

nah, Jeter was always a really good hitter (for a SS) and almost never a great one. Friends, maybe?

Seinfeld's peaks are unmatched, and sometimes it was awful (in fact, Jeter is having a much better finale than Seinfeld did).
   13. pthomas Posted: June 27, 2014 at 12:47 PM (#4737428)


"Who is the girl in the dugout, with the long hair?" Hernandez said during the broadcast. "What's going on here? You have got to be kidding me. Only player personnel in the dugout."

"I won't say that women belong in the kitchen, but they don't belong in the dugout," Hernandez said.
   14. Bourbon Samurai Posted: June 27, 2014 at 12:48 PM (#4737429)
Frasier might be a good comp for Derek Jeter. Good pedigree, immediate success, high quality for a long time, kept on playing past its prime...
   15. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: June 27, 2014 at 12:52 PM (#4737433)
Nice job, pretty boy!
   16. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 27, 2014 at 12:57 PM (#4737437)
Seinfeld's peaks are unmatched, and sometimes it was awful (in fact, Jeter is having a much better finale than Seinfeld did).

I say that Seinfeld's finale was real, and it was spectacular.
   17. Karl from NY Posted: June 27, 2014 at 01:55 PM (#4737468)
Seinfeld was the XKCD of the 90's.
   18. bread and rice Posted: June 27, 2014 at 02:09 PM (#4737477)
Seinfeld was the XKCD of the 90's.


But, XKCD isn't funny.

Oh...I see what you did there.
   19. McCoy Posted: June 27, 2014 at 02:42 PM (#4737497)
When you compare Seinfeld to what came before it, and especially immediately before it-re the 80's, it is an extremely funny show. Then when you look at what came after it you discover how much of an influence it had on comedies on TV.
   20. Canker Soriano Posted: June 27, 2014 at 03:12 PM (#4737515)
When you compare Seinfeld to what came before it, and especially immediately before it-re the 80's, it is an extremely funny show. Then when you look at what came after it you discover how much of an influence it had on comedies on TV.

What Bill Cosby did for the revival of the family sitcom, Jerry Seinfeld did for every subsequent sitcom where a bunch of people just sit around talking.
   21. Canker Soriano Posted: June 27, 2014 at 03:13 PM (#4737516)
XKCD is not always funny, but sometimes it hits the mark in a perfect way.

And the whole sequence he drew for "Time" with the floods and the people was fascinating to watch. I was sad that it ended.
   22. base ball chick Posted: June 27, 2014 at 03:39 PM (#4737548)
Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: June 27, 2014 at 12:16 PM (#4737412)

I'm certainly not alone considering the ratings the show got. Hard to believe its been about 15 years since the show went off the air.

It's still enough of a draw that it runs for two straight hours on TBS every night. I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't see the humor in it.


- well, that's me. i don't get their humor any more than i get grumpy cat telling people to drop dead. or pics of 50s housewives telling other people how awful they are, so awful that they are justified in drinking all the time. or maybe i'm just so d**n tired of all the cruelty, viciousness and hate out there that i just can't find it funny at all. and if those horrible people really have set the tone for the nastiness that is supposed to pass for Funny, then i detest them even more
   23. Karl from NY Posted: June 27, 2014 at 04:34 PM (#4737596)
But, XKCD isn't funny.

Oh...I see what you did there.

That's the point. They're both ordinary slice of life stuff filtered through a lens of wickedly precise snark. You'll either get both or not.
   24. Enrico Pallazzo Posted: June 27, 2014 at 04:43 PM (#4737607)
and if those horrible people really have set the tone for the nastiness that is supposed to pass for Funny, then i detest them even more


If this is really how you feel, I recommend staying away from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

Nevermind, I wouldn't recommend that to anybody. IASIP is hilarious.
   25. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: June 27, 2014 at 04:43 PM (#4737608)
That's the point. They're both ordinary slice of life stuff filtered through a lens of wickedly precise snark. You'll either get both or not.


Nah. I think Seinfeld is great and XKCD is insufferably smug about its nerdiness.
   26. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 27, 2014 at 04:54 PM (#4737620)
Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: June 27, 2014 at 12:16 PM (#4737412)

I'm certainly not alone considering the ratings the show got. Hard to believe its been about 15 years since the show went off the air.

It's still enough of a draw that it runs for two straight hours on TBS every night. I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't see the humor in it.


- well, that's me. i don't get their humor any more than i get grumpy cat telling people to drop dead. or pics of 50s housewives telling other people how awful they are, so awful that they are justified in drinking all the time. or maybe i'm just so d**n tired of all the cruelty, viciousness and hate out there that i just can't find it funny at all. and if those horrible people really have set the tone for the nastiness that is supposed to pass for Funny, then i detest them even more


Hey, different strokes. I couldnt stand Seinfeld either until I got into the rhythm of it and started getting to "know" all the side characters like Puddy and Uncle Leo and Mr. Pitt and Mr. Peterman and all the others. It was only my wife's persistence that got me to give it time to sink in.

But then when it comes to the great humor divide, I'm usually walking down the path to the right. I plan to repent on my deathbed and join the Harmless Joshers.

   27. Enrico Pallazzo Posted: June 27, 2014 at 05:00 PM (#4737625)
Can we take this as an opportunity to bash The Big Bang Theory and Two and a Half Men?

Because those are terrible shows with absurdly high ratings.
   28. Canker Soriano Posted: June 27, 2014 at 05:25 PM (#4737644)
Nevermind, I wouldn't recommend that to anybody. IASIP is hilarious.

I've just gotten into it, and I agree. They're horrible, but so so funny.
   29. Howie Menckel Posted: June 27, 2014 at 05:29 PM (#4737649)

the writing on 27's hate list is often crisp. the overall shows have big flaws, as the characters just move around like puppets to get you to the punch line. but teh writing.

and Penny.
   30. cardsfanboy Posted: June 27, 2014 at 05:34 PM (#4737651)
- well, that's me. i don't get their humor any more than i get grumpy cat telling people to drop dead. or pics of 50s housewives telling other people how awful they are, so awful that they are justified in drinking all the time. or maybe i'm just so d**n tired of all the cruelty, viciousness and hate out there that i just can't find it funny at all. and if those horrible people really have set the tone for the nastiness that is supposed to pass for Funny, then i detest them even more


This is exactly my problem with Seinfeld, it inspired a whole ton of comedies in which everybody is just a crappy human being (The Office, Sunny in philly, Louis, etc even traditional comedies took on that look, with Raymond, King of Queens, 2 1/2 perverts, etc.) At least shows like Roseanne had ultimately decent but flawed people...there is no such thing as a decent person on Seinfeld, and it personally colors my perception about people in New York, if this is representative of even a handful of people there, then it's a place for the lowest dregs of humanity to occupy.


I like Seinfeld for the most part, but it wouldn't break my personal list of 20 best comedy tv shows. It does have some memorable moments though, and is probably in the top 5/10 all time in quoted shows.
   31. cardsfanboy Posted: June 27, 2014 at 05:36 PM (#4737653)
Can we take this as an opportunity to bash The Big Bang Theory and Two and a Half Men?

Because those are terrible shows with absurdly high ratings.


Love Big Bang... :)
can't stand 2 1/2.(except the eye candy).

   32. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 27, 2014 at 05:46 PM (#4737658)
there is no such thing as a decent person on Seinfeld,

But there's no really evil people, either. Except, of course....NEWMAN. What you get are beautifully crafted portraits of people with various inane quirks and obsessions that are taken to comical extremes. For example, I suppose that Elaine's tirade at the woman who made a "comment" about her "Botticelli shoes" could be taken seriously as a sign of a horrible person, but in reality it's just a beautiful parody of certain women's fashion obsessions, played to utter perfection. If that sort of outburst makes you in the slightest bit uncomfortable, then I can see why you might not like Seinfeld.
   33. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 27, 2014 at 06:19 PM (#4737677)
I don't really like Seinfeld, because all the characters come across as narcissistic ########.

XKCD can be a little twee sometimes, but is usually pretty good.
   34. Howie Menckel Posted: June 27, 2014 at 06:37 PM (#4737689)
The inside joke of Seinfeld was precisely that these central characters were so unlikable - but you laughed anyway. The perfect precursor for The Sopranos (The character actor who was the other finalist, once Liotta demurred, grew up in my neighborhood and has had a good career; Chase said he would have been really good but he had a likeability that would have made it easier on the audience - true. Gandolfini didn't even give you that out.)

That's also why the Seinfeld finale was so awful - the script treated the audience as being so stupid that they didn't "get the joke," so the last episode had to clue everyone in.
#sigh

   35. bobm Posted: June 27, 2014 at 06:43 PM (#4737691)
And Hernandez was beyond moronic with his comment about Torres. I'm sure that old Keith only wore a batting helmet because he was being forced to.

To be fair, he could and did wear a batting helmet without ear flaps because he debuted in the majors before flaps were mandatory.
   36. cardsfanboy Posted: June 27, 2014 at 06:47 PM (#4737692)
Except, of course....NEWMAN.


Wasn't Newman and Puddy about the only decent human beings on that show?

Don't get me wrong, I liked Seinfeld, even with the personal problems I have with the characters.(This is the big difference in my opinion between Frasier and Seinfeld....Seinfeld actually was funny because the events that happened happened more or less organically, based upon the particular characters personality, Frasier emulated the Threes Company routine, where everything happened because the main characters were idiots), but I think ultimately I enjoy shows where I want to root for the characters. Bad characters are fine in small doses(although I still can't get past an episode of Sunny/Office/Community) or as a foil(Jon Larroquette's Dan Fielding for example) but not an entire cast.
   37. bobm Posted: June 27, 2014 at 06:48 PM (#4737693)
The character actor who was the other finalist, once Liotta demurred, grew up in my neighborhood and has had a good career; Chase said he would have been really good but he had a likeability that would have made it easier on the audience

Michael Rispoli?
   38. Canker Soriano Posted: June 27, 2014 at 06:50 PM (#4737694)
the writing on 27's hate list is often crisp. the overall shows have big flaws, as the characters just move around like puppets to get you to the punch line. but teh writing.

and Penny.


I resisted watching it for a long time because of the negative reviews. Like you, I find the writing to be sharp at times (but very lazy at other times). It suffers as most shows do from having been on the air so long - each character moves gradually toward a caricature of what it originally was. That said, the addition of Amy and Bernadette has really helped things (though I think Raj is a lost cause at this point). It can be surprisingly heartwarming at its best moments, and has some real clunkers as well. It's generally not deserving of the hate that it gets.

Plus, Penny.

(Two and a Half Men, OTOH, can die in a fire.)
   39. cardsfanboy Posted: June 27, 2014 at 07:00 PM (#4737699)
It suffers as most shows do from having been on the air so long - each character moves gradually toward a caricature of what it originally was.


That is the exact opposite of my opinion on Big Bang, I think that the characters are moving towards "normal" instead of maintaining all their idiosyncrasies. Arguably to the point that the characters aren't going to be the central part of the show and it's going to be about the happenings in their lives. The characters started off as caricatures and all of them have evolved beyond that point (with the possible exception of Leonard who is more or less stagnant, since he was the 'normal' one to begin with.)
   40. Canker Soriano Posted: June 27, 2014 at 07:04 PM (#4737702)
Bad characters are fine in small doses(although I still can't get past an episode of Sunny/Office/Community) or as a foil(Jon Larroquette's Dan Fielding for example) but not an entire cast.

The thing about Dan was, he was bad - but there was always something redeeming underneath. He was a good guy with a major character flaw, not a bad guy. A lot of that was Larroquette's portrayal, as in the wrong hands he could have just been a jerk (I'm picturing... oh, maybe Jere Burns' character in Dear John, or Jefferson D'Arcy in Married with Children, or anyone played by Charlie Sheen).

You lump Sunny/Office/Community together, though they're fundamentally different shows. The characters on Sunny are bad, almost uniformly, to each other and the world (but so bad that it's funny). The characters on The Office were cringe-worthy but not bad (Scott's Tots excepted) - Michael was always a good guy trying to do the right thing, but with a horribly misplaced understanding of how to act around other people. Compare it with Curb Your Enthusiasm, which is both cringe-worthy and usually filled with bad characters.

I wouldn't call anyone on Community a bad character (except maybe Pierce toward Seasons 3 and 4, but that was just bad writing as the off-screen problems between Harmon and Chase spilled into the show). Community nailed it in the first scene of the show - these were flawed characters at a transition point in their lives, trying to figure out where to go next. Underneath all of the gimmick episodes that got so much attention, it's maybe the most heartfelt and emotionally honest show that I've seen. I can't recommend it enough (and if you're looking for characters to root for, there's a whole study group of them - it's just a lot more difficult than in an average show where everything wraps up neatly in 22 minutes).
   41. Canker Soriano Posted: June 27, 2014 at 07:12 PM (#4737705)
The characters started off as caricatures and all of them have evolved beyond that point (with the possible exception of Leonard who is more or less stagnant, since he was the 'normal' one to begin with.

I think some characters have grown for the better, and some have grown for the worse. Raj has really gone downhill, as they've found nothing at all to do with him and have spent the better part of the last 4 or 5 seasons just making "is Raj gay?" jokes. The whole not being able to talk to women unless drinking thing was silly, and at least they did away with it. The whole Howard and his mother thing, too - we get it, she's fat and he's a mama's boy. Enough. Sheldon and Amy have become the interesting ones on the show, and I think the writers have taken some opportunity to try to find some growth there. But once in a while they (especially Sheldon) slip back into the same place that he was in seasons 1-2.

I really wish they had done more with Penny. I'd love to see a story line where she becomes successful in her acting, and how that success affects her relationship with Leonard and the others. She's never really come away from being the waitress and failed actress, and there have been a couple of points where it looked like they were going to shake things up by sending her in a different direction. But she always falls back into the same place, and now that she and Leonard are engaged I assume we'll get the usual 18 episodes of wedding planning, 3 episodes of last minute cold feet, and then season finale big wedding where everything works out OK.

Maybe my expectations are too high. There have been plenty of good shows where the characters really never changed at all (I loved Newsradio, but those people were the same at the end of Season 5 as they were at the start of Season 1). It's not a pre-requisite. But this is a show where it felt like they gave themselves in the premise some room to explore character development, and they've done too little with it.
   42. cardsfanboy Posted: June 27, 2014 at 07:44 PM (#4737724)
There have been plenty of good shows where the characters really never changed at all (I loved Newsradio, but those people were the same at the end of Season 5 as they were at the start of Season 1).


Most shows are like that. That is why I always find the criticism about BBT not evolving so weird, it's one of the few shows in which the adult characters have changed (obviously shows with children are kinda forced to change them) It may not be to the pace that people want, but it's still tons more evolving than vast majority of successful shows out there. Friends the only thing that evolved was the relationships...and Joey/Phoebe became dumber...but Ross in season one, is exactly the same person he was in the last season, same with Monica, and even Chandler(Rachel might have changed a little, but in comparison to how much Sheldon has changed over the years, there really is no comparison)

I can't think of too many traditional character driven shows, in which the characters did a lot of evolving over the seasons.
   43. Zach Posted: June 27, 2014 at 07:55 PM (#4737728)
Seinfeld was extremely well written. Pretty much every character had a minor flaw that was blown up out of all proportion, and the writers were really good at coming up with a seemingly normal situation that would hit that one flaw perfectly. That held true for the minor characters, too, and they had more memorable minor characters than some shows have characters.

That was actually my big problem with How I Met Your Mother. You have five attractive young people in the middle of New York City, and none of them has any friends or social life outside of their apartment and the bar downstairs.
   44. Canker Soriano Posted: June 27, 2014 at 08:03 PM (#4737729)
Friends is a good comparison, and I guess I'd have the same complaint there. In both shows you're starting with people in their 20s who are just starting out as adults. They established that Monica and Rachel were classmates and younger (Rachel was the last to turn 30), and Joey was in the same general area. Chandler and Ross were supposedly in college at the same time the girls were in high school, yet Ross managed to graduate, get a PhD, and get married and then divorced in the time from the girls' high school graduation to Rachel's aborted first wedding (and if you timeline the show she turns 30 in season 7, which makes her 23 in season 1). So who the hell knows how old some of them were.

(As an aside, I can't get a good fix on how old the people on BBT are supposed to be either - I know Penny was 22 in Season 1, but you'd have to assume that Leonard is a good bit older than her given that at the start of the show he has a PhD and is teaching at a university. Even a conservative estimate would make him 27-28 at the start of the show and in his mid-30s at this point. Sheldon I can buy as younger because they've set him up as someone who went off to college at a young age. But we also know he lived in that apartment for some time before Leonard moved in, and he seems farther along in his career. So he may be around the same age. Ditto Raj. Howard could be younger since he just has a master's. I think the show wants us to think of them as relatively young, but in reality I think they're all (except Penny) probably in their mid-30s at this point.)

What's my point here... oh yeah. I think with younger characters I expect to see some changes, because that's what I'd expect out of a regular 20-something. You're not the same person at 29 that you were at 22, at least for most people. I want to see that growth and not just someone being the same year after year. In that way, Seinfeld didn't bother me - these were adults in their 30s at least, and in their 40s when the show ended. I can see some stability there. But with kids in their 20s, I think as a writer you have more leeway to let them run in different directions instead of just making a character and never wavering from it. You can get funny shows with adults who are set in their ways and won't ever change (All in the Family, or Barney Miller, or dozens of others). But I think you miss something if they're younger and not evolving. (And then you get shows where the adults evolve, and that can be something really terrific - look at Sam Malone in Cheers. What a great character, and a guy who changed starting in his mid-30s.)

(I rambled on here, Grandpa Simpson style. I should check my belt to make sure the onion is still there. Also, I watch way too much TV.)
   45. Canker Soriano Posted: June 27, 2014 at 08:06 PM (#4737731)
That was actually my big problem with How I Met Your Mother. You have five attractive young people in the middle of New York City, and none of them has any friends or social life outside of their apartment and the bar downstairs.

I always got the feeling that Barney had a rich life away from the group. But yeah, Ted in particular seemed to have absolutely nothing else going on in his life (to name another character in his mid-20s who didn't really change at all over the course of the show, despite his voiced-over protestations to the contrary).
   46. madvillain Posted: June 27, 2014 at 08:08 PM (#4737733)
and it personally colors my perception about people in New York, if this is representative of even a handful of people there, then it's a place for the lowest dregs of humanity to occupy.


yea you probably should get help for this. Actually, it's people like you that scare NYCers from ever moving. People that think the version of NYC you see on tv is real.
   47. cardsfanboy Posted: June 27, 2014 at 08:11 PM (#4737734)
What's my point here... oh yeah. I think with younger characters I expect to see some changes, because that's what I'd expect out of a regular 20-something. You're not the same person at 29 that you were at 22, at least for most people. I want to see that growth and not just someone being the same year after year. In that way, Seinfeld didn't bother me - these were adults in their 30s at least, and in their 40s when the show ended. I can see some stability there. But with kids in their 20s, I think as a writer you have more leeway to let them run in different directions instead of just making a character and never wavering from it. You can get funny shows with adults who are set in their ways and won't ever change (All in the Family, or Barney Miller, or dozens of others). But I think you miss something if they're younger and not evolving. (And then you get shows where the adults evolve, and that can be something really terrific - look at Sam Malone in Cheers. What a great character, and a guy who changed starting in his mid-30s.)


I do too, but I think that tv shows have historically set a precedent that changes is minor and gradual. In that context BBT characters evolve at a much higher pace than other shows with similar age characters in the same 'vein'.

   48. Howie Menckel Posted: June 27, 2014 at 08:11 PM (#4737735)
"Michael Rispoli?"

YES
........

BBT

"I resisted watching it for a long time because of the negative reviews. Like you, I find the writing to be sharp at times (but very lazy at other times). It suffers as most shows do from having been on the air so long - each character moves gradually toward a caricature of what it originally was. That said, the addition of Amy and Bernadette has really helped things (though I think Raj is a lost cause at this point). It can be surprisingly heartwarming at its best moments, and has some real clunkers as well. It's generally not deserving of the hate that it gets.

Plus, Penny."

YES

......

"(Two and a Half Men, OTOH, can die in a fire.)"

granted, no heartwarming


   49. cardsfanboy Posted: June 27, 2014 at 08:17 PM (#4737738)
yea you probably should get help for this. Actually, it's people like you that scare NYCers from ever moving. People that think the version of NYC you see on tv is real.


Don't need help for that. It's a conversation board, things get said a little over the top. I mean if I believed tv 100% on New Yorkers, then I would think that nobody cooks for themselves and have everything delivered, that Chinese food is eaten and delivered 5 times more often than Pizza.

My point is that the Seinfeld characters are bad people, and everyone they meet in the course of the show, is another bad person, there is maybe 3 people in the entire series that are decent human beings. It's part of the show I get it, everyone is narcissistic to the point that the only thing that matters to them is how they look and are perceived by others, no matter what. But it was the slice of life of a New Yorker aspect that I was making fun of.
   50. Canker Soriano Posted: June 27, 2014 at 08:37 PM (#4737748)
I mean if I believed tv 100% on New Yorkers, then I would think that nobody cooks for themselves and have everything delivered, that Chinese food is eaten and delivered 5 times more often than Pizza.

I lived in New York, and I definitely knew a couple of people who used their ovens for clothing storage. I looked at an apartment when I was first moving there that had no kitchen - just a refrigerator along one wall. And I rarely if ever had pizza delivered - it was better just stopping for a slice at any of (what seemed like) several hundred Ray's pizzas that were all over the city. But I did eat a lot of Chinese food...

Seinfeld was an over-the-top representation of life in New York, but probably not as over-the-top as people might think. That said, the people were also just as nice as people in other places I've lived (so I don't quite get the stereotype that New Yorkers are brusque and rude).
   51. shoewizard Posted: June 27, 2014 at 08:53 PM (#4737751)
If anything I find New Yorkers to be the most helpful and engaging people you get to meet, compared to most big cities.
   52. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: June 27, 2014 at 08:56 PM (#4737752)
Ugh, Big Bang is awful.

Bad characters are fine in small doses(although I still can't get past an episode of Sunny/Office/Community) or as a foil(Jon Larroquette's Dan Fielding for example) but not an entire cast.

Canker Soriano already addressed this, but I have no idea how Community got lumped in there. Community's characters are fundamentally good but flawed, like most Human Beings are.
   53. cardsfanboy Posted: June 27, 2014 at 09:05 PM (#4737756)
Canker Soriano already addressed this, but I have no idea how Community got lumped in there. Community's characters are fundamentally good but flawed, like most Human Beings are.


I never got past about seven episodes of community, you had the lawyer guy who is the focal character and fully useless as a human being. The chevy chase character, arguably the worst in the group, in a better dynamic, he would be the guy they would be slowly changing to a better person. The self righteous bimbo. The cliched loud black girl. The cliche foreigner. The high school dropout girl (who, from what I understand hooks up with the lawyer in future seasons...EWWW.) I just didn't find any of them engaging enough to stick around for more episodes. The black kid seemed like a cross between a closeted gay guy and them going overboard to portray a black athlete as non-cliched.

I've tried multiple times to go back (of course I have horrible tastes...as these threads show, so my opinion is useless on these matters) and just couldn't get into it. I want to, the stories about how they save jokes for future seasons and a few of the other meta crap they do sounds great, I just can't get into the characters enough to care.

   54. CrosbyBird Posted: June 27, 2014 at 09:09 PM (#4737758)
But there's no really evil people, either. Except, of course....NEWMAN. What you get are beautifully crafted portraits of people with various inane quirks and obsessions that are taken to comical extremes.

I wonder if some of the Seinfeld humor (and especially the humor of the superior Curb Your Enthusiasm, freed from network limitations and canned laughter) is a little too "New York Jew" for some people. It happens to hit just in my wheelhouse. And there's also a little similarity between Seinfeld and Sex in the City, in that Manhattan is itself a character in the story.

When Seinfeld is on, though, it's much richer than a traditional sitcom. It's brilliantly written, and it was a huge part of the 90s culture: master of your domain, not that there's anything wrong with that, re-gift, they're real and they're spectacular...

Also, the characters usually end up paying for their selfish behavior. The creators are definitely not encouraging you to behave like these people.
   55. CrosbyBird Posted: June 27, 2014 at 09:16 PM (#4737762)
Compare it with Curb Your Enthusiasm, which is both cringe-worthy and usually filled with bad characters.

My favorite episodes of Curb are ones where Larry does something just a little awkward or selfish or even just misinformed, and it snowballs into something that makes him come off as a terrible human being, even though his sin was relatively minor. He's definitely a schmuck, but he suffers from really bad karma because things rarely go just a little badly for him.
   56. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: June 27, 2014 at 09:17 PM (#4737764)
People who do not like Seinfeld are secretly robots sent to enslave us. I caught two episodes while in Kentucky, and they were both fantastic and had hardly aged a whit.
   57. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: June 27, 2014 at 09:17 PM (#4737766)
who, from what I understand hooks up with the lawyer in future seasons...EWWW.


Doesn't happen.
   58. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: June 27, 2014 at 09:21 PM (#4737767)
url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny


"Seinfeld" was NEVER funny. I hated that show when it was on, I hate it now, and I hate most of its obnoxious, pointless spawn.
   59. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 27, 2014 at 09:29 PM (#4737770)
But there's no really evil people, either. Except, of course....NEWMAN. What you get are beautifully crafted portraits of people with various inane quirks and obsessions that are taken to comical extremes.

I wonder if some of the Seinfeld humor (and especially the humor of the superior Curb Your Enthusiasm, freed from network limitations and canned laughter) is a little too "New York Jew" for some people.


There may be something to that, but I think it's more that some people are just uncomfortable with characters who don't give us any particular reason to like them, as opposed to laugh at them. I actually found nearly all of them quite endearing in their complete comic lack of self-awareness.

I mean how can anyone not love Puddy, when he flexes his muscles to a befuddled Elaine, shows off his leather jacket with a giant 8-ball on the back, and says in dead seriousness, "You got a question? Just ask the 8-ball!" You can't make up characters like that, but somehow Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld managed to do it nearly every week.

When Seinfeld is on, though, it's much richer than a traditional sitcom. It's brilliantly written, and it was a huge part of the 90s culture: master of your domain, not that there's anything wrong with that, re-gift, they're real and they're spectacular...

Also, the characters usually end up paying for their selfish behavior. The creators are definitely not encouraging you to behave like these people.


And yet somehow they managed to pull it off without a single mawkish "happy" ending, which is the bane of nearly all sit-coms other than Seinfeld and Curb. "No hugging, no 'learning'" was the mantra. The closest they ever came to violating this was in the episode where Jerry dumps the unwanted jacket that Kenny Banya gave him onto Elaine's mooching British boyfriend, and then gleefully sics Banya on him while he and Elaine high-five each other as the boyfriend flees in terror. It was a "happy" ending of sorts, but happy/sadistic, not happy/mushy. That was what made Seinfeld and Curb the greatest sitcoms ever: The complete lack of phony "closure" BS. Even the finale (which I loved) held true to that.
   60. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 27, 2014 at 09:36 PM (#4737773)
My favorite episodes of Curb are ones where Larry does something just a little awkward or selfish or even just misinformed, and it snowballs into something that makes him come off as a terrible human being, even though his sin was relatively minor. He's definitely a schmuck, but he suffers from really bad karma because things rarely go just a little badly for him.

My favorite Curb meme is Larry's sometimes relationship with Wanda Sykes. That episode where she hectors him with "That's right, Larry! Blame it on the BLACK man!" still cracks me up every time I think of it. That series is so goddam good that I actually (Ray would appreciate this) broke down and BOUGHT all eight seasons. I almost felt I'd violated some unwritten moral code by doing so, but then we don't get HBO so what could I do?
   61. cardsfanboy Posted: June 27, 2014 at 09:40 PM (#4737775)
I mean how can anyone not love Puddy, when he flexes his muscles to a befuddled Elaine, shows off his leather jacket with a giant 8-ball on the back, and says in dead seriousness, "You got a question? Just ask the 8-ball!" You can't make up characters like that, but somehow Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld managed to do it nearly every week.


But to get to Puddy you had to watch a lot of other episodes which may not appeal to you. Again, I liked Seinfeld, but my brother absolutely hates it, and I can't even talk with him about it, nor does he accept the zeitgeist it had on the world. (as pointed out in post 54)

For the record....post 54 was excellent. It hits pretty much a few things I think about the show. And the line about not encouraging the behavior does matter.

It was a "happy" ending of sorts, but happy/sadistic, not happy/mushy. That was what made Seinfeld and Curb the greatest sitcoms ever: The complete lack of phony "closure" BS. Even the finale (which I loved) held true to that.



and that is a big reason a huge amount of people didn't like it. They aren't watching to see the bleakness of the real world, they want to put on tv, laugh and feel good. It's the same thing I argue with people who say "West Wing dialog is too fake."...who cares, it's a pleasure to listen too, contrary to what people think....people didn't talk like Shakespeare during his time either. Entertainment doesn't need to be grounded and halted by the real world. If you want an apple pos computer to write a virus that blows up alien spaceships, then more power too you, just give me good entertainment that makes me feel joy.


   62. cardsfanboy Posted: June 27, 2014 at 09:41 PM (#4737777)
My favorite Curb meme is Larry's sometimes relationship with Wanda Sykes. That episode where she hectors him with "That's right, Larry! Blame it on the BLACK man!" still cracks me up every time I think of it. That series is so goddam good that I actually (Ray would appreciate this) broke down and BOUGHT all eight seasons. I almost felt I'd violated some unwritten moral code by doing so, but then we don't get HBO so what could I do?


I bought all 7 seasons of the new Doctor Who series..... :)
   63. Buzzards Bay Posted: June 27, 2014 at 09:52 PM (#4737787)
Bought the whole "Dallas" for fun...it's better before Jock dies and it's better after Jock dies......Victoria/Pam....Holly Harwood was interesting in her own way too !
   64. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 27, 2014 at 09:59 PM (#4737794)
I mean how can anyone not love Puddy, when he flexes his muscles to a befuddled Elaine, shows off his leather jacket with a giant 8-ball on the back, and says in dead seriousness, "You got a question? Just ask the 8-ball!" You can't make up characters like that, but somehow Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld managed to do it nearly every week.

But to get to Puddy you had to watch a lot of other episodes which may not appeal to you. Again, I liked Seinfeld, but my brother absolutely hates it, and I can't even talk with him about it, nor does he accept the zeitgeist it had on the world. (as pointed out in post 54)


See, I can respect that, and even understand it. Humor is intensely personal. I tried watching Friends and Cheers several times and almost threw up, and It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia just struck me as trying too hard. But I realize that all of those shows had almost as many fans as Seinfeld, so what can I say?

It was a "happy" ending of sorts, but happy/sadistic, not happy/mushy. That was what made Seinfeld and Curb the greatest sitcoms ever: The complete lack of phony "closure" BS. Even the finale (which I loved) held true to that.

and that is a big reason a huge amount of people didn't like it. They aren't watching to see the bleakness of the real world, they want to put on tv, laugh and feel good.


Wait, how is Seinfeld even remotely connected to the "real world"? With the possible exception of Jerry himself, every character in the show is a lampoon of a type, not a "real" character at all. We may "know" people who share their character traits, but never to the extreme extent that those characters displayed them. Not even close. If those characters were actually "real", they would've quickly bored the hell out of everyone, not just a stubborn minority of holdouts.

It's the same thing I argue with people who say "West Wing dialog is too fake."...who cares, it's a pleasure to listen too, contrary to what people think....people didn't talk like Shakespeare during his time either. Entertainment doesn't need to be grounded and halted by the real world. If you want an apple pos computer to write a virus that blows up alien spaceships, then more power too you, just give me good entertainment that makes me feel joy.

I don't watch TV shows in general, but there are plenty of movies with honest sentimental endings that I like. What I can't stand is when those "happy endings" get reduced to a predictable formula, like the obligatory final scene marriages in the old production code era movies. I realize that this is also a matter of taste, and a lot of it just depends on how much you like the characters or the actors. Sleepless in Seattle, for instance, is a hopelessly mawkish movie, but it hooked me in completely in spite of Tom ####### Hanks being the leading man. Go figure.
   65. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 27, 2014 at 10:03 PM (#4737798)
I bought all 7 seasons of the new Doctor Who series..... :)

Out of curiosity, does the name Lloyd Rose mean anything to you? She (not he) used to be one of my favorite book shop customers, and at one point she told me that she was involved with the writing of that show, which I've never seen.
   66. JE (Jason) Posted: June 27, 2014 at 10:05 PM (#4737800)
"Michael Rispoli?"

YES

I'm confused why you brought up Rispoli, Howie. As you know, he appeared on The Sopranos as Jackie. Was he originally considered for the role of Tony?
   67. GregD Posted: June 27, 2014 at 10:09 PM (#4737802)
My favorite Curb line is a small one. "It's a go-home stain....but I didn't go home"
   68. Howie Menckel Posted: June 27, 2014 at 10:16 PM (#4737807)
"I'm confused why you brought up Rispoli, Howie. As you know, he appeared on The Sopranos as Jackie. Was he originally considered for the role of Tony?"

yes, it was down to those 2 (they also considered Little Steven, which would have been the worst choice).

We always got a kick out of how much coin Rispoli has made just being himself (he was the landlord in "While You Were Sleeping," the Sandra Bullock movie, and played the Bernie Kerik character in a "Law and Order" episode and a million other gigs). But of course it's not really that easy.

still, he really was the teenage tough guy with the pack of cigs on his sleeve. and we had a lot of other neighbors who, well, seemed to have it "made." Mike was so tough that he had a shock of red hair at that age (Irish mother?), and still looked tough!



   69. cardsfanboy Posted: June 27, 2014 at 10:19 PM (#4737808)
Out of curiosity, does the name Lloyd Rose mean anything to you? She (not he) used to be one of my favorite book shop customers, and at one point she told me that she was involved with the writing of that show, which I've never seen.


No, but I'm not that well versed in the writers...outside of the show runners and Douglas Adams and Evan Gattis, there aren't many names of writers on the show I remember.
   70. cardsfanboy Posted: June 27, 2014 at 10:23 PM (#4737809)
Wait, how is Seinfeld even remotely connected to the "real world"?

I wasn't saying it was connected to the real world, the act of not having sappy tie it in a bow endings, is one aspect that it resembles the real world. And some people don't want that in a story, they want three parts, beginning, middle end.
   71. shoewizard Posted: June 27, 2014 at 10:41 PM (#4737818)
Bought the whole "Dallas" for fun...it's better before Jock dies and it's better after Jock dies......Victoria/Pam....Holly Harwood was interesting in her own way too !


When I was young and living in Taichung Taiwan in the early/middle 80's they only had 3 TV stations and no cable. The only English Language programs were on Sunday nights. From 9 to 10 they showed Dallas, and from 10:00-10:30 they showed 3's company.

We had a group of young Americans living and working together in the company I was at. We partied pretty hard on the weekends, managed to get up to play softball or flag football some times, and partied some more. Mixed in some monopoly or risk overnight marathons in between. Everybody would finally break for home around 8 on Sunday night, go watch Dallas, religiously, and on Monday morning talk about the episodes and what a badass JR was. He was our hero. And it was all we had. Well that and the VHS/Beta Max tapes of bootleg movies.

We were usually drunk and very young and stupid. Be kind. But I swear that was a lot of fun.
   72. vortex of dissipation Posted: June 27, 2014 at 10:42 PM (#4737819)
Out of curiosity, does the name Lloyd Rose mean anything to you?


Very much so, yes. She's never written for the actual show, but she's written three very well regarded Doctor Who novels, and one Doctor Who audio drama.
   73. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: June 27, 2014 at 10:47 PM (#4737824)
And the line about not encouraging the behavior does matte


So I shouldn't build that Merv Griffin set in my living room? To me, that's one of the greatest 30 (22) minute comedy moments in TV history.
   74. cardsfanboy Posted: June 27, 2014 at 10:48 PM (#4737826)
We had a group of young Americans living and working together in the company I was at. We partied pretty hard on the weekends, managed to get up to play softball or flag football some times, and partied some more. Mixed in some monopoly or risk overnight marathons in between. Everybody would finally break for home around 8 on Sunday night, go watch Dallas, religiously, and on Monday morning talk about the episodes and what a badass JR was. He was our hero. And it was all we had. Well that and the VHS/Beta Max tapes of bootleg movies.


I think Dallas was widely considered to be one of the first "water cooler" tv show.
   75. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: June 27, 2014 at 10:58 PM (#4737833)
She's never written for the actual show


Of course she hasn't, that would require Moffat to think women were actually anything other than puppets that look kind of like people. #### Moffat.
   76. bobm Posted: June 27, 2014 at 10:59 PM (#4737834)
We always got a kick out of how much coin Rispoli has made just being himself (he was the landlord in "While You Were Sleeping," the Sandra Bullock movie, and played the Bernie Kerik character in a "Law and Order" episode and a million other gigs). But of course it's not really that easy.

still, he really was the teenage tough guy with the pack of cigs on his sleeve. and we had a lot of other neighbors who, well, seemed to have it "made." Mike was so tough that he had a shock of red hair at that age (Irish mother?), and still looked tough!


He is pretty talented. He's starring in and producing a new movie.
   77. Howie Menckel Posted: June 27, 2014 at 11:07 PM (#4737839)
oh, yeah.
it's just funny in retrospect.
by age 13, or so, Mike was too cool even to play sports anymore, which the rest of us couldn't even fathom (not that he was a great athlete, but he was in the mix, and the first one to move "beyond."). but he had other goals on his mind, we could tell even then.

I went to Mardi Gras in N'Awlins in the 1980s with a close pal of his, and Mike took that guy to Toronto for a movie filming years later. So he still kept in touch with the 'hood.

When people tell me I'm funny, I tell them, it was the coin of the realm. Mike was probably the most serious teenager in town, and he can still prompt a laugh whenever the scene calls for it.
   78. shoewizard Posted: June 27, 2014 at 11:11 PM (#4737842)

I think Dallas was widely considered to be one of the first "water cooler" tv show.


Don't know if it was the first, but was definitely the biggest until just about Sopranos came along.

I was actually in Taiwan in 79-80, and then went back to the States the week they aired the episode revealing Who Shot JR I was hanging out in a bar with a bunch of high school friends, doing the reunion thing, when everything in the bar stopped, music, dancing, talking, and everyone crowded around the TV. I was totally clueless as to what was going on and couldn't believe when my friends explained it to me. Little did I know that I was to get hopelessly hooked on the show just a year or two later.
   79. MuttsIdolCochrane Posted: June 28, 2014 at 06:22 AM (#4737893)
Seinfeld; greatest sitcom ever.....in writing and execution. By the way, if you liked Friends then you never really got Seinfeld. No chance. (And you probably wear Cotton ****** Dockers.)
   80. MuttsIdolCochrane Posted: June 28, 2014 at 06:22 AM (#4737894)
With Curb kind of an extension.
   81. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 28, 2014 at 06:58 AM (#4737897)
Out of curiosity, does the name Lloyd Rose mean anything to you?

Very much so, yes. She's never written for the actual show, but she's written three very well regarded Doctor Who novels, and one Doctor Who audio drama.


Thanks, vortex, and I'm glad to hear that. She used to come into my shop a lot when it was in Georgetown, and for a long time she was kind of floating from freelance to freelance before landing a job as the Post's drama critic, where she finally got a chance to display her amazing knowledge and writing ability. She left the Post after a few years and I've mostly lost touch with her, but it's nice to see she found another niche like this. The closest comparison I can think of for her would be Susan Sontag, which sounds like a stretch, but seems a lot less of one if you've ever had a chance to talk to her at any length.
   82. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 28, 2014 at 07:12 AM (#4737898)
Wait, how is Seinfeld even remotely connected to the "real world"?

I wasn't saying it was connected to the real world, the act of not having sappy tie it in a bow endings, is one aspect that it resembles the real world. And some people don't want that in a story, they want three parts, beginning, middle end.


Or as Macheath put it in Threepenny Opera, when he was given a last minute reprieve from the gallows and awarded a big pension and a Dukedom in Sussex:

Happy ending, nice and tidy,
It's a rule I / learned in school
Get your money / every Friday
Happy endings / are the rule.


Personally I'm glad Larry David is more of a Brecht fan than a fan of Ozzie and Harriet.

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