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Tuesday, December 24, 2013

Nadel: Hall Call: Maddux (duh!), but not Jacque Jones (double-duh!)

The always exciting JAWS-fueled Matt Nadel HOF ballot! Biggio, Bagwell, J. Morris, Raines, Schilling, Piazza, Glavine, Maddux, F. Thomas, Mussina.

Mussina? Now there’s an interesting one.

The very first thing I do when perusing my Hall ballot every year is the “feel test.” Does this guy “feel” like a Hall of Famer? And I must admit that, at first blush, Mussina didn’t. His numbers are very good (270-153, 3.68 ERA, 2,813 K), but not one of them screams: “I’m a Hall of Famer!” He had only one 20-win season (his last, at age 39), he never won a Cy Young and he never won a title.

Then again ...

In many key sabermetrics, Mussina compares quite favorably to Glavine and comes out well ahead of Morris. He also had more wins, a lower ERA, more strikeouts and fewer walks than Morris. The more I delved into the numbers, the more I felt guilty about the prospect of voting for Morris but not for Mussina.

Then there’s this: I didn’t want to contribute to Mussina getting knocked off the ballot for good. If a candidate doesn’t get 5% of the vote in any year, he no longer can be considered in the future. Given that it often takes years for voters to warm up to certain candidates—Bert Blyleven was named on only 17.5% of the ballots his first year but finally made it in his 14th try—I didn’t want Mussina to go away forever.

So, MIKE MUSSINA, welcome to my Hall of Fame “team.”

Repoz Posted: December 24, 2013 at 01:24 PM | 25 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hof

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   1. Best Regards, President of Comfort Posted: December 24, 2013 at 01:38 PM (#4623537)
Mike Mussina *should* have won the Cy Young Award in 2001 -- but Roger Clemens won it, because, you know, Won-Loss Record Over Everything.
   2. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 24, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4623538)
Morris is making his final ballot appearance and it'll be close -- he received 67.7% of the vote last year (75% is required). I know his ERA is a little too high for some and his victory total is a little too low. Still, his status as a workhorse during an era in which both baseballs and bodies were juiced,


I thought he pitched primarily in the 80s?
   3. cardsfanboy Posted: December 24, 2013 at 01:42 PM (#4623539)
I like this article. I do not agree with everything he says, but at least he fully admits he's swayable. (going so far as to say he might vote for Clemens and Bonds as early as next year) I like that he honestly said last year he was going to give Piazza another year to see if the rumors gained traction, waited, saw nothing in the rumors and gave up the fight.

Add in a ten man ballot, and the reasoning for Mussina, and I have to like this ballot, again even with the Jack Morris vote.

Best line of the article.
Maddux, well, you know ... I'm not even going to bother throwing any stats out there. If he doesn't get in, it's time to take the vote away from me and my peers.
   4. Bitter Calculus Instructor Posted: December 24, 2013 at 01:45 PM (#4623541)
For those tallying +- compared to last year: Nobody dropped from last year, Bagwell and Piazza added in addition to the four new guys.
   5. SoCalDemon Posted: December 24, 2013 at 01:47 PM (#4623542)
I liked most of the article, except for the end. Why rip on Mike Timlin or Jacque Jones? I suspect being on this ballot is some of these guys personal hall of fame. They know that they arn't hall of famers, but to carve out a respectable 10+ year career is still a heck of an achievement, and to see it recognized by the selection committee; why not?
   6. cardsfanboy Posted: December 24, 2013 at 01:49 PM (#4623546)
If you read the comments, I liked what he said about Mussina and by extension Lofton. He was upset about Lofton being off the ballot because of the 5% rule, even though he doesn't think he is a hofer, he would have liked to have the chance to be convinced.

He did mention liking Jacque Jones as a person...which is a very common refrain you see in regards to Jones.
   7. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 24, 2013 at 02:16 PM (#4623567)
His numbers are very good (270-153, 3.68 ERA, 2,813 K), but not one of them screams: “I’m a Hall of Famer!”


As opposed to Gossage and Morris, whose mouths scream "I'm a Hall of Famer!" loudly and often.
   8. JRVJ Posted: December 24, 2013 at 02:36 PM (#4623585)
It might be me, but it seems to me that these public ballots are a lot fuller (or actually full) than in other years.....
   9. Moeball Posted: December 24, 2013 at 02:38 PM (#4623586)
FTFA:

Schilling, like Morris, is a borderline pick and I can understand why he didn't get more votes last year, his first on the ballot: low-ish win total, a less-than-spectacular ERA.


Oh, good grief. You say that Morris' almost-4.0 ERA is ok because it happened during the juicer era (which it really didn't), but then you criticize Schilling's ERA for being a bit high without mentioning that unlike Morris, he actually was pitching during the height of the high-offensive sillyball era.

Context is everything, but it conveniently gets left out when you're trying to get somebody you worshipped elected. I say this knowing Nadel is actually one of the better BBWAA voters. Most of them are far more atrocious than this. Yikes!

How many decades do we have to wait for these dinosaurs to go away? It would be nice if the people paid to write about the sport of baseball actually knew something about the sport. From everything I've seen of their work over the last 7 decades or so, I'm absolutely convinced they don't know a damn thing.
   10. cardsfanboy Posted: December 24, 2013 at 02:44 PM (#4623588)
You do realize he did vote for Schilling, and he was giving the reasons why others may not have voted for him, right?
   11. pikepredator Posted: December 24, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4623596)
I love his Thomas comment, "How can there even be a debate?". I think I would just stare blankly at anyone who tried to convince me the Big Hurt isn't HOF material.
   12. Esoteric Posted: December 24, 2013 at 03:08 PM (#4623599)
This may be my favorite HoF ballot so far. Yes, even though it includes Morris. Every other choice is a worthy HoF'er, no PED types, and he picks up some guys who are being left off of other ballots like Mussina, Raines, and Schilling.
   13. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 24, 2013 at 04:07 PM (#4623623)
Actually 270-153 does scream Hall of Fame.
   14. Moeball Posted: December 24, 2013 at 04:09 PM (#4623627)
CFB - yeah, I know, he did vote for Schilling, but I was on a roll and couldn't stop myself! It's tough to get down from that soapbox.
   15. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 24, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4623628)
Referring to #7 unless you don't want any relievers in Gossage'a numbers are easily in. He's no lower than #3 all-time amongst eligible RP.
   16. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: December 24, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4623634)
Referring to #7 unless you don't want any relievers in Gossage'a numbers are easily in. He's no lower than #3 all-time amongst eligible RP.


I'd be quite happy with a Hall of Fame that set the in/out line for relievers between the arguable Wilhelm and the undeserving Goose. So yeah, two is a perfectly legitimate cutoff. Though if pushed, I suppose I'd be fine with one or zero, as well.
   17. cardsfanboy Posted: December 24, 2013 at 04:34 PM (#4623636)
Referring to #7 unless you don't want any relievers in Gossage'a numbers are easily in. He's no lower than #3 all-time amongst eligible RP.


1. Wilhelm
2. Rivera
3. Eckersley... so at best 4th. I would have drawn the in/out line at 2 personally and that is probably too many.

But if you are going to have 6 relievers in the hall, then Gossage most certainly has to be one. (I could see the argument for Gossage over Eckersley or that Eck isn't in strictly as a reliever...don't agree with either one of those arguments, but I could see it)
   18. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 24, 2013 at 05:52 PM (#4623675)
#7 was meant to refer more to Gossage's self-aggrandizement than to his numbers - I personally don't have a strong opinion on whether he should be in the Hall or not, but boy, he sure does.
   19. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: December 24, 2013 at 06:14 PM (#4623682)
This is a solid B+ ballot in my entirely subjective view. I'd have included Clemens and Bonds, and I wouldn't have had Morris, but everything is reasoned out, he has 10 people on his ballot, and he clearly put thought into it. Good job!
   20. Srul Itza Posted: December 24, 2013 at 06:51 PM (#4623689)
This is at least the second or third article saying that Morris pitched during the "juiced" era.

Is this a thing now -- giving Morris special credit when his only years during the "juiced" era were 93 and 94?
   21. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: December 24, 2013 at 07:45 PM (#4623704)
Now here is a much better ballot. All 10 filled in and he's got the new big 3. He's taken the PED stand and though including Morris, does recognise that his candidacy doesn't measure up to the other hurlers on his ballot. Of course he's also recognised that Thomas is a no doubter, as he should be.
   22. Spectral Posted: December 24, 2013 at 07:47 PM (#4623705)
I'm not even particularly bothered by Morris anymore, but I'm utterly gobsmacked by the idea that anyone would vote for Morris, but not Mussina. I can't even fathom how that logic works. Ah well, in the end, this is a good ballot, so I shouldn't complain.
   23. cardsfanboy Posted: December 24, 2013 at 10:11 PM (#4623734)
I'm not even particularly bothered by Morris anymore, but I'm utterly gobsmacked by the idea that anyone would vote for Morris, but not Mussina. I can't even fathom how that logic works. Ah well, in the end, this is a good ballot, so I shouldn't complain.


As I say on every one of these threads, if a voter has 10 votes on his ballot, and one of them is Morris and Mussina isn't one of them, it's not a matter of them choosing Morris over Mussina, it's them choosing Morris period. If I'm a voter, I fully support the concept of "once a guy makes my ballot, he doesn't get removed" it's a perfectly reasonable conceit.
   24. Bhaakon Posted: December 24, 2013 at 10:38 PM (#4623738)
This is at least the second or third article saying that Morris pitched during the "juiced" era.

Is this a thing now -- giving Morris special credit when his only years during the "juiced" era were 93 and 94?


Depends on whether you're commenting on the era of offensive dominance, or just the documented use of PEDs. Canseco was playing in the 80's, after all.
   25. John Northey Posted: December 25, 2013 at 12:46 AM (#4623767)
Morris 93/94 (juiced era beginning) 5.91 ERA 76 ERA+ 17-18 W-L record no playoff appearances
Morris 1988-1994 (Canseco proves steroids work via a 170 OPS+ 40-40 HR-SB as a starting point) 92-81 4.48 ERA 92 ERA+. Playoffs 4-3 4.25 ERA including that 10 inning shutout. 0-3 in his last 4 playoff games (all for Toronto who won despite him).

So in the juiced era, no matter how you determine it, he really didn't do well other than that one game.

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