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Wednesday, June 25, 2014

Native American group planning 9 billion lawsuit against Cleveland Indians

A Native American group is planning to file a $9 billion federal lawsuit against the Cleveland Indians and their “offensive” Chief Wahoo logo, according to CBS Cleveland. The suit is expected to be filed next month

The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: June 25, 2014 at 11:28 AM | 370 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cleveland indians

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   1. JRVJ Posted: June 25, 2014 at 01:43 PM (#4735284)
9 Billion?

Are they using Ta-Nehisi Coates as expert witness?

Good grief.............
   2. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 01:48 PM (#4735291)
Local supporters of the Chief Wahoo logo say it is only a small minority of people who are offended by the logo.


So as if helping perpetuate a hateful stereotype weren't enough, now they're making fun of the Natives' height, too?
   3. Harlond Posted: June 25, 2014 at 01:48 PM (#4735292)
Their fund-raising could easily exceed the sanctions that ought to be imposed.
   4. GregD Posted: June 25, 2014 at 01:51 PM (#4735296)
Are they using Ta-Nehisi Coates as expert witness?
What a strange non sequitur.
   5. JRVJ Posted: June 25, 2014 at 02:02 PM (#4735308)
4, are you aware of Coates' recent article in the Atlantic arguing for reparations for the African-American community?

It's not really a non-sequitur if you understand the comment.
   6. GregD Posted: June 25, 2014 at 02:07 PM (#4735316)
4, are you aware of Coates' recent article in the Atlantic arguing for reparations for the African-American community?

It's not really a non-sequitur if you understand the comment.


I am aware. It is an article about government action toward African-Americans in compensation for prior government actions in slavery, discriminatory state action, and Jim Crow.

He explicitly says he has nothing original to say about any potential reparations for American Indians.

This lawsuit is not about government reparations but about a claim against a private business, not for its ancient misdeeds but its present practices.

I suppose the connection must be your distaste for each of them, but that's the weakest possible connection to draw since it is a connection about your subjective state not about anything intrinsic to either issue.
   7. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: June 25, 2014 at 02:10 PM (#4735318)
Lead counsel for the plaintiffs: Dr. Evil.
   8. robinred Posted: June 25, 2014 at 02:11 PM (#4735319)
Yeah, Coates' article was very interesting--read it yesterday. And yes, very different kind of thing, as GregD notes.
   9. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 25, 2014 at 02:15 PM (#4735323)
Local supporters of the Chief Wahoo logo say it is only a small minority of people who are offended by the logo.

If only the genocide worked, there wouldn't be anyone offended.
   10. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 02:19 PM (#4735329)
A Native American group is planning to file a $9 billion federal lawsuit

There should be some law that if you ask for damages more than an order of magnitude higher than you could ever hope to win, your case is immediately dismissed, with prejudice.

Asking for $9B just makes you look insanely foolish. I'm pretty sure that many time the Indians total revenue in their entire history.
   11. cardsfanboy Posted: June 25, 2014 at 02:19 PM (#4735330)
are you aware of Coates' recent article in the Atlantic arguing for reparations for the African-American community?


That was an excellent episode of The West Wing.
   12. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 02:29 PM (#4735344)
The ass-handing demonstrated @6 is as concise and succinct a beat down as you're ever going to see.
   13. GregD Posted: June 25, 2014 at 02:30 PM (#4735345)
Asking for $9B just makes you look insanely foolish. I'm pretty sure that many time the Indians total revenue in their entire history.
I assume the number was picked because it would get media coverage. Suing for, say, $100,000 would barely get a blurb in the Cleveland newspapers, right?

So it is likely a rational decision even if it also on its face looks ridiculous. But their goal is not to win $9 billion. Their goal, I assume, is to get attention, which they've done.
   14. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 02:30 PM (#4735346)
This heap big fiasco.
   15. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 02:48 PM (#4735371)
I love this. And I really hope the Indians get rid of Chief Wahoo.
   16. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 02:55 PM (#4735378)
I suppose the connection must be your distaste for each of them,


I hate it when people like Steve Garvey, Chris Truby & Albert Belle testify as expert witnesses in lawsuits against the Cleveland Indians.
   17. winnipegwhip Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:07 PM (#4735396)
How many beads is that?
   18. theboyqueen Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:18 PM (#4735408)
Instead of $9 billion, they should ask for Cleveland back. On second thought...

I've never really understood the arguments against reparations. It's sort of like paying college athletes -- the details are obviously complicated, but the morality of the situation seems quite clear.
   19. Rusty Priske Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:19 PM (#4735412)
Anything that gets them to change their logo is worth the effort.

If they can convince them to change their NAME, well, that would be gravy.
   20. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:26 PM (#4735420)
I've never really understood the arguments against reparations.


There's a notable segment of the population who still don't really admit that the US was founded on two genocidal events.
   21. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:28 PM (#4735425)
I dunno, Rusty. "The Cleveland Gravy" doesn't sound particularly awful, I guess, but I detest team names that don't end in -s.
   22. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:29 PM (#4735429)
I'm pretty sure that many time the Indians total revenue in their entire history.


According to the National Indian Gaming Commission, Indian Casinos have averaged gross revenues of about $25billion a year the last 10 years...

Oh you mean the Cleveland Indians :-)

9 billion, 114 years, they'd need to have averaged $79million a year for their entire existence...
good question, obviously they're over that in recent years, obviously 100 years ago their revenues were far less, my guess is that if you adjust historical revenues for inflation, then yes they are over $9billion in total revenue.

FWIW Indian Payroll since 1985 totals about 1.4billion, player salaries tend to hover around 50-60% of revenue (in the free agency era), so Indian revenues were around $2.5billion last 30 years?

So my guess is that without adjusting for inflation there is no way the Cleveland Indians total historical revenue is $9billion
   23. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:30 PM (#4735430)
the details are obviously complicated, but the morality of the situation seems quite clear.


not to white southerners... (Sam excepted)
   24. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:32 PM (#4735432)
not to white southerners... (Sam excepted)


What am I? Chopped chitlins?
   25. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:32 PM (#4735433)
not to white southerners... (Sam excepted)


I'm pretty sure most of Manhattan would oppose value-for-value reparations for the island, too.
   26. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:32 PM (#4735434)
I've never really understood the arguments against reparations.

I've never really understood the arguments for reparations.
   27. theboyqueen Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:34 PM (#4735438)
I am reading this Coates article and it's a freaking tour de force. I thank the poster in #1 for pointing it out to me. From the article:

In 2001, the Associated Press published a three-part investigation into the theft of black-owned land stretching back to the antebellum period. The series documented some 406 victims and 24,000 acres of land valued at tens of millions of dollars. The land was taken through means ranging from legal chicanery to terrorism. “Some of the land taken from black families has become a country club in Virginia,” the AP reported, as well as “oil fields in Mississippi” and “a baseball spring training facility in Florida.”


There is no reparation for genocide, but the state theft of land for subsequent private profit is an entirely different matter. This is THE fundamental libertarian issue, is it not? So where are the libertarians on this?
   28. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:35 PM (#4735441)
I've never really understood the arguments against reparations.


They'd be impossible to implement.

I've never really understood the arguments for reparations.

Wholesale government-sanctioned theft against African American lives and property. The problem is that reparations should've been implemented in the 1860's and 1870's when there was more of a direct connection between the victims and their victimizers. If you tried to implement it today, the chief beneficiaries would be the ambulance chasers.
   29. Willie Mayspedester Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:36 PM (#4735442)
I was trying to think of a new name for the team and thought Scrappers would be good. Not sure if people stealing metal from abandoned buildings is as prevalent in Cleveland as it is in Detroit but that was going to be my joke.

Name already taken.
   30. Gaelan Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:36 PM (#4735443)
Reparations won't right past wrongs. What it will do is transfer wealth from people who never benefited from past wrongs to people who weren't harmed by them. I'm not sure why people think that's a moral outcome.
   31. Howie Menckel Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:37 PM (#4735444)
I lol'd at some of these comments, but Keith Law will call me out if I say which ones, and say I should have my typewriter taken away (and yes, I graduated from college typing stories on a typewriter).

So I'll say I laughed at ... 4 and 12
   32. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:37 PM (#4735446)
They should rename them the Cleveland Burning Lakes.
   33. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:38 PM (#4735447)
"Scrappers" was the Nashville, Ark., school's team name when I was a kid.
   34. theboyqueen Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:39 PM (#4735448)
What it will do is transfer wealth from people who never benefited from past wrongs to people who weren't harmed by them.


Boy is this begging the question.
   35. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:40 PM (#4735451)
and yes, I graduated from college typing stories on a typewriter


As did I. Never professionally, though; the first newspaper I worked at had VDTs from the day I started, back in the summer of '80.
   36. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:41 PM (#4735453)
I've never really understood the arguments against reparations. It's sort of like paying college athletes -- the details are obviously complicated, but the morality of the situation seems quite clear.

The morality of taking money from people who had nothing to do with any mistreatment, and most of whose ancestors weren't even in the country when the mistreatment occurred, to give to the descendants of those who were mistreated is not all all clear.

There's a notable segment of the population who still don't really admit that the US was founded on two genocidal events.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Genocide involves intent to wipe out a people. The American Indians were devastated by disease. That devastation was going to happen regardless of the behavior of the Europeans. Slave owners have absolutely no interest in killing their slaves.

Things can be awful (slavery, stealing Indian lands) without being Genocide. Words have real meanings. Use them.
   37. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:42 PM (#4735454)
What am I? Chopped chitlins?


A mongoose. It's right there in your signature. And no, mongeese don't count.
   38. tfbg9 Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:47 PM (#4735464)
I'm pretty sure most of Manhattan would oppose value-for-value reparations for the island, too.


All I know is whatever tribe was awarded re-possession of Manhattan Island couldn't be any worse to me than my landlords were.
   39. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:48 PM (#4735465)
The morality of taking money from people who had nothing to do with any mistreatment, and most of whose ancestors weren't even in the country when the mistreatment occurred, to give to the descendants of those who were mistreated is not all all clear.


Which is probably why Coates doesn't suggest an outright payout for reparations, so much as note that the case for state sponsored theft of long-term African American wealth is airtight.

Genocide involves intent to wipe out a people. The American Indians were devastated by disease. That devastation was going to happen regardless of the behavior of the Europeans. Slave owners have absolutely no interest in killing their slaves.


If you think the intent of the US government's AmerIndian policies from at least the 1800s onward was not to wipe out a people, you're insane. Yeah, disease devastated masses of the population. The government came in to mop up the rest. As for West African slavery, the only point at which the genocide of West Africans was considered problematic was after some small portion of them made it across the Atlantic to be sold as cattle. Stop being a pedantic dick. The US was founded on two genocidal events.
   40. Howie Menckel Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4735470)

"the first newspaper I worked at had VDTs from the day I started,"

ditto
   41. theboyqueen Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:50 PM (#4735474)
The morality of taking money from people who had nothing to do with any mistreatment, and most of whose ancestors weren't even in the country when the mistreatment occurred, to give to the descendants of those who were mistreated is not all all clear.


So if there were a way to determine exactly whom are the hereditary beneficiaries of discrimination, and whom are its hereditary victims, in quantifiable terms, we could be in favor of such a thing? For instance, if the people profiting from this country club in Virginia were forced to pay some sort of fee to the family from whom the land was stolen, would that be morally acceptable? Isn't this the basis of property law?

Keep in mind that under such a scenario Barack Obama is more likely to be paying reparations than receiving them. Seems fair to me.

Now, considering the complexity and expense of determining these facts for every individual case (presumably through the court system), perhaps the more efficient solution would be a class-based "settlement". This is the essence of reparations, no?
   42. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:52 PM (#4735476)
If you think the intent of the US government's AmerIndian policies from at least the 1800s onward was not to wipe out a people, you're insane. Yeah, disease devastated masses of the population. The government came in to mop up the rest. As for West African slavery, the only point at which the genocide of West Africans was considered problematic was after some small portion of them made it across the Atlantic to be sold as cattle. Stop being a pedantic dick. The US was founded on two genocidal events.

The intent of the US Government was to steal the Indians' land. They may not have cared about their deaths, but that was not the intent. People have been stealing other tribes/clans/nations land for millenia. It ain't pretty, but it ain't genocide.

Now you are attaching blame for what private slavers did in West Africa and on the Atlantic Ocean to the US Gov't and its current citizens? How does that make any sense?
   43. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:55 PM (#4735483)
So if there were a way to determine exactly whom the hereditary beneficiaries of discrimination are, and whom its hereditary victims are, in quantifiable terms, we could be in favor of such a thing? For instance, if the people profiting from this country club in Virginia were forced to pay some sort of fee to the family from whom the land was stolen, would that be morally acceptable? Isn't this the basis of property law?

Keep in mind that under such a scenario Barack Obama is more likely to be paying reparations than receiving them. Seems fair to me.

Now, considering the complexity and expense of determining these facts for every individual case (presumably through the court system), perhaps the more efficient solution would be a class-based "settlement". This is the essence of reparations, no?


Sure. If an individual person can prove that the ancestors of the owners of a certain piece of property stole it from his ancestors, go ahead and sue.
   44. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:55 PM (#4735484)
Now you are attaching blame for what private slavers did in West Africa and on the Atlantic Ocean to the US Gov't and its current citizens? How does that make any sense?


The US government ran 100+ years of official endorsement of those "private slavers" and their actions, Snapper. You don't think they got to Virginia without the colonies/states knowing about it, do you? The US Constitution explicitly endorsed slavery until 1865 or so. Seriously. Stop pretending the past didn't happen.

The US was founded on West African slavery, which was genocidal. The US expanded by willfully depopulating and relocating American Indians by force, which was also genocidal. We can admit the horrors our forefathers committed. It's okay. It won't make us less real Americans.
   45. theboyqueen Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:57 PM (#4735486)
ure. If an individual person can prove that the ancestors of the owners of a certain piece of property stole it from his ancestors, go ahead and sue.


Current laws do not allow this, unless I am mistaken. I am not a lawyer.

EDIT: I think "treasure trove" principles would preclude winning such a suit, if not a statute of limitations.
   46. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:57 PM (#4735488)
Sure. If an individual person can prove that the ancestors of the owners of a certain piece of property stole it from his ancestors, go ahead and sue.


It should be noted that Coates' argument, which is again more or less airtight and persuasive as anything ever written, shows the theft of land and property continuing up through Jim Crow, well into the 1960s, inclusive of redlining into the 1970s and 1980s. This is not a gauzy issue of historical what-iffing. The theft of African American wealth by government action continued well into the Reagan years.
   47. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 03:59 PM (#4735490)
The US government ran 100+ years of official endorsement of those "private slavers" and their actions, Snapper. You don't think they got to Virginia without the colonies/states knowing about it, do you? The US Constitution explicitly endorsed slavery until 1865 or so. Seriously. Stop pretending the past didn't happen.

The US was founded on West African slavery, which was genocidal. The US expanded by willfully depopulating and relocating American Indians by force, which was also genocidal. We can admit the horrors our forefathers committed. It's okay. It won't make us less real Americans.


My point is not that they weren't horrible, simply that they were not genocidal. It wasn't genocide either when the Romans or Mongols wiped out entire cities that rebelled against them. Killing a bunch of people does not equal genocide.

Look at West Africa. It is fully populated. There was no genocide of West Africans. In fact, the people in West Africa today bear as much responsibility for the slave trade as modern Americans. Europeans didn't control W. Africa during the time of the slave trade, and the people there were willing supplier of slaves.
   48. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:00 PM (#4735492)
Current laws do not allow this, unless I am mistaken. I am not a lawyer.

I don't know, but I'd have no problem if they did.

I'd also really appreciate if the UK would return all the Churches and Cathedrals they stole from the Catholic Church (I'm not even going to ask for the Abbeys back) but I ain't holding my breath.
   49. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:09 PM (#4735499)
My point is not that they weren't horrible, simply that they were not genocidal. It wasn't genocide either when the Romans or Mongols wiped out entire cities that rebelled against them. Killing a bunch of people does not equal genocide.


As I say, stop being a pedantic dick.
   50. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:10 PM (#4735502)
Which is probably why Coates doesn't suggest an outright payout for reparations, so much as note that the case for state sponsored theft of long-term African American wealth is airtight.

So "The Case for Reparations" doesn't actually call for reparations? That's odd.

As I say, stop being a pedantic dick.

So you don't know what "genocidal" means ... or what "pedantic" means. Yikes.

Anyway, this whole Indian thing is getting confusing. Just last weekend, I saw a bunch of Indians from Ray Halbritter's reservation — Halbritter is the guy leading the charge against the Redskins' name — wearing ... Cleveland Indians attire featuring Chief Wahoo.
   51. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:10 PM (#4735503)
They should rename them the Cleveland Burning Lakes.


It was the river that burned, no the lake. Now, Great Lakes Burning River, well, that's already taken... and delicious
   52. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:16 PM (#4735513)
So you don't know what "genocidal" means ... or what "pedantic" means. Yikes.


The lawn needs mowing, JoeK. Get back to work.
   53. tfbg9 Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:17 PM (#4735517)
So you don't know what "genocidal" means ... or what "pedantic" means. Yikes.


He doesn't know what odds-on means either.
   54. Rennie's Tenet Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:18 PM (#4735520)
I think the government should set up a series of reparations funds, which would eventually multiply and include subjects that never touch America. They would be funded voluntarily by individuals, with a charitable tax deduction allowed. Each fund would have a board of some sort that would do nothing but determine eligibility, which could be a percentage thing. Each year the money donated would be divided among the eligibles - all the money would be distributed and the eligibles would get a check.
   55. Dale Sams Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:18 PM (#4735521)
My point is not that they weren't horrible, simply that they were not genocidal.


"The only good Indian is a dead Indian"

"Civilization or death to all American savages"-Major James Norris

"It makes no difference. They are Indians, and three-fourths of the people of the United States believe and say that 'the best Indians are all under ground'"-Alfred Benjamin Meacham, ex-superintendent of Indian Affairs 1875

"but I will say that I like an Indian better dead than living. I have never in my life seen a good Indian (and I have seen thousands) except when I have seen a dead Indian. I believe in the Indian policy pursued by New England in years long gone. I believe in the Indian policy which was taught by the great chieftain of Massachusetts, Miles Standish. I believe in the policy that exterminates the Indians"-James Michael Cavanaugh, Congressman 1868

"On the frontier a good Indian means a "dead Indian." Whether the Indians have deserved, or brought on themselves, the injuries they have suffered, and to what extent their treatment might have been ameliorated by honesty in the agents employed by the Government, and by a more humanitarian spirit in the people who have ousted them, can matter little at present. The Indian must go, is going, and will soon be gone. It is his luck"-Major William Shepard 1884

"I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every ten are, and I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth"-TEDDY ####### ROOSEVELT

(drops mic)
   56. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:20 PM (#4735527)
Given that the United States has expended a significant amount of money and blood in its efforts to support marginalized populations in society of the past decades, a demand for reparations can only be acceptable if tied to an overt admission that the American experiment has not worked adequately. As such, while a fairly generous payout may be warranted (perhaps $100,000 per individual), it should be directly tied to a mandate to leave this country and renounce citizenship within a reasonable period of time. A mass efflux of relatively wealthy, Western-educated individuals, freed of the shackles of historic oppression that have suppressed their growth for so long, would certainly be a boon to the recipient nations who take these expatriates in.
   57. theboyqueen Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:33 PM (#4735552)
Given that the United States has expended a significant amount of money and blood in its efforts to support marginalized populations in society of the past decades, a demand for reparations can only be acceptable if tied to an overt admission that the American experiment has not worked adequately. As such, while a fairly generous payout may be warranted (perhaps $100,000 per individual), it should be directly tied to a mandate to leave this country and renounce citizenship within a reasonable period of time. A mass efflux of relatively wealthy, Western-educated individuals, freed of the shackles of historic oppression that have suppressed their growth for so long, would certainly be a boon to the recipient nations who take these expatriates in.


A better idea is to forego reparations and repatriate the white people back to Europe.
   58. jmurph Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:38 PM (#4735560)
So, YR, is that an "Indian voice" joke (#14) and a "go back to where you came from" comment (#56) in the same thread? Always a pleasure to read your contributions.
   59. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:40 PM (#4735563)
If reparations happened, you'd have the lottery payout effect, and within 5 years we'd be back to square one.

   60. SteveF Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:41 PM (#4735564)
A better idea is to forego reparations and repatriate the white people back to Europe.

They'd have to chop me up (and I suspect many, many others) into five or six pieces.
   61. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:42 PM (#4735566)
Early Biological War on Native Americans



Colonial germ warfare


These were the only 2 examples that I have found so far that show Europeans deliberately trying to expose the Native Americans to smallpox
   62. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:44 PM (#4735568)
If reparations happened, you'd have the lottery payout effect, and within 5 years we'd be back to square one.

No, no. That result would just be evidence of continuing racism, which would require a further round of reparations.
   63. Dale Sams Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:46 PM (#4735570)
They'd have to chop me up (and I suspect many, many others) into five or six pieces.


You could always just buy two airline seats.
   64. theboyqueen Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:46 PM (#4735572)
They'd have to chop me up (and I suspect many, many others) into five or six pieces.


As opposed to sending American black guy back to his tribe?
   65. theboyqueen Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:47 PM (#4735575)
To where exactly are we suggesting repatriating the native americans?
   66. Gaelan Posted: June 25, 2014 at 04:53 PM (#4735582)
There are two sides to these issues. The Ukrainian farmers who settled Western Canada for instance, themselves the dispossessed and downtroden of their homeland, took harsh, inhospitable land, and made something of it. Living in clay huts and sod houses. To say that the descendents of these people owe something for this privilege is not simply myopic, but is I would hazard, deeply immoral.

Or the Irish, who have spread all over North America. Have you forgotten how and why there are so many Irish here? Shall they send along their portion of the bill to the British Government?


The very idea of reparations sticks in the craw.
   67. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 05:02 PM (#4735590)
The very idea of reparations sticks in the craw.


Your nebbish refusal to look at the world as it is doesn't constitute a policy position.
   68. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 25, 2014 at 05:05 PM (#4735594)
Your nebbish refusal to look at the world as it is doesn't constitute a policy position.

"Nebbish" brings to four the number of words Sam has misused today. And I thought Bitter Mouse was bad ...
   69. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 05:07 PM (#4735600)
"Nebbish" brings to four the number of words Sam has misused today.


My boots need shining, son. There's a tuppence in it for you.
   70. Dale Sams Posted: June 25, 2014 at 05:24 PM (#4735620)
Two effects this will have:

1) Show that a lot of people don't think it's just a problem with the Redskins.

2) Give idiots more chances to expose themselves. I mean, when some of the comments on other boards are, "9 Billion? Give them some more blankets I say." I invite comments like that. Please. More. It will get everyone talking and eventually people will realize that Indians continue to be the most marginalized society in America.

There's a federal holiday named after Christopher Columbus. That whole enslaving, murdering and chopping people's hands off?...enh. Teddy Roosevelt is deified. Andrew Jackson is on the $20.

"The Indians' disappearance from the human family will be no great loss to the world. I do not think them, as a race, worth preserving." -Henry Clay

"It is my purpose to utterly exterminate the Sioux. They are to be treated as maniacs or wild beasts, and by no means as people with whom treaties or compromise can be made."-General Pope on his assignment by Lincoln.

In 1807, Thomas Jefferson instructed his War Department that, should any Indians resist against America stealing Indian lands, the Indian resistance must be met with "the hatchet". Jefferson continued, "And...if ever we are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, " he wrote, "we will never lay it down till that tribe is exterminated, or is driven beyond the Mississippi." Jefferson, the slave owner, continued, "in war, they will kill some of us; we shall destroy all of them". (reference) (Stannard, David E. AMERICAN HOLOCAUST. New York: Oxford University Press)

   71. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 05:30 PM (#4735634)
So, YR, is that an "Indian voice" joke (#14) and a "go back to where you came from" comment (#56) in the same thread? Always a pleasure to read your contributions.


I suspect my real sin is in assuming that anybody would take such an obviously frivolous and stupid lawsuit with any degree of seriousness. You'd get more traction suing Disney for not including Princess Tigerlilly in the current Disney Princess lineup.

Also, in the interest of the fairness and honesty for which I am well-known on this forum, I'll note that "go back to where you came from" is the farthest thing from my proposal. They can go anywhere they like, with the funds to start a new life. It's a better deal than my family got fleeing the Bialystock pogroms.
   72. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 05:31 PM (#4735638)
A better idea is to forego reparations and repatriate the white people back to Europe.


That seems sorta pushy. The real advantage of my proposal is that it offers a clear voluntary choice for the potential recipients.
   73. Dale Sams Posted: June 25, 2014 at 05:43 PM (#4735662)
They can go anywhere they like, with the funds to start a new life. It's a better deal than my family got fleeing the Bialystock pogroms.


$100,000 isn't even going to get them in the front door. Most countries don't have our liberal immigration policies.
   74. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 05:52 PM (#4735674)
Well the exact details can be worked out - how much they cash out for, how long they have to leave the country, who would be eligible, and so on. The important thing is to start the conversation and agree on it's reasonableness.
   75. Gaelan Posted: June 25, 2014 at 06:11 PM (#4735694)
People in this thread should read The Sonby Philip Meyer.

Now that's a book that is unflinching in its portrayal.

But spare me the 21st century melodramatic moralizing from the comfort of your condos and your computers.
   76. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: June 25, 2014 at 06:23 PM (#4735706)
A better idea is to forego reparations and repatriate the white people back to Europe.

See my problem is that there are too many of my people (Irish) to fit comfortably in the old Country (Ireland), the obvious solution of course would be to reclaim not just Ireland for the Celts, but all of Great Britain as well and return the Anglo-Saxons to the continent to rejoin their Germanic brothers.

   77. PreservedFish Posted: June 25, 2014 at 06:27 PM (#4735714)
It would be fascinating to see what would happen after the reparations were paid out. Any guesses?

I just spent about a minute thinking about this and I couldn't even get to the point where the checks are actually cut - I'm awed by the complexity (and sensitivity) of deciding who deserves the money, and how much.
   78. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 25, 2014 at 06:33 PM (#4735720)
I'm awed by the complexity (and sensitivity) of deciding who deserves the money, and how much.

You spelled "simplicity" wrong. Given that there are no surviving former slaves, the answers to the "Who?" and "How much?" questions couldn't be simpler: "No one" and "$0."
   79. Dale Sams Posted: June 25, 2014 at 06:33 PM (#4735721)
It would be fascinating to see what would happen after the reparations were paid out. Any guesses?


African-Americans would march endlessly. Marginalization of Indians would go through the roof. "You got your wampum, can you please STFU about mascots now? Go blow your handout on firewater and casinos please."
   80. Howie Menckel Posted: June 25, 2014 at 06:43 PM (#4735735)

"See my problem is that there are too many of my people (Irish) to fit comfortably in the old Country (Ireland), the obvious solution of course would be to reclaim not just Ireland for the Celts, but all of Great Britain as well and return the Anglo-Saxons to the continent to rejoin their Germanic brothers."

Is there a way to "favorite" a post? asking for a friend
   81. Nasty Nate Posted: June 25, 2014 at 06:48 PM (#4735746)

But spare me the 21st century melodramatic moralizing from the comfort of your condos and your computers.


From what century and through what instrument does your moralizing come to internet threads?
   82. Rennie's Tenet Posted: June 25, 2014 at 06:56 PM (#4735754)
I just spent about a minute thinking about this and I couldn't even get to the point where the checks are actually cut - I'm awed by the complexity (and sensitivity) of deciding who deserves the money, and how much.


If this came about, I doubt that the bulk of the money would go to inviduals. I think that it would be directed to institutions, to invest in development within the communities.
   83. TJ Posted: June 25, 2014 at 06:57 PM (#4735756)
I favor Cleveland going back to the Naps and replace Chief Wahoo with a giant cartoonish grinning face of Nap Lajoie- that should install some fear in their opponents...
   84. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 06:58 PM (#4735758)
From what century and through what instrument does your moralizing come to internet threads?


You don't understand. He lives in a split level ranch, single family unit.
   85. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 25, 2014 at 06:58 PM (#4735759)
If this came about, I doubt that the bulk of the money would go to inviduals. I think that it would be directed to institutions, to invest in development within the communities.

We've already spent trillions on that, haven't we?
   86. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 07:00 PM (#4735761)
You spelled "simplicity" wrong. Given that there are no surviving former slaves, the answers to the "Who?" and "How much?" questions couldn't be simpler: "No one" and "$0."


Can we all put to bed the hysterical notion that JoeK is in any way "conservative?"
   87. McCoy Posted: June 25, 2014 at 07:00 PM (#4735762)
It would be fascinating to see what would happen after the reparations were paid out. Any guesses?

Look at what happened after Hurrican Katrina when the government handed out free money. Hell, look at what happened when Bush handed out his tax givebacks.
   88. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 07:01 PM (#4735764)

If this came about, I doubt that the bulk of the money would go to inviduals. I think that it would be directed to institutions, to invest in development within the communities.


I suppose that depends on what countries they relocate to and what sort of financial infrastructure is already in place there.
   89. PreservedFish Posted: June 25, 2014 at 07:03 PM (#4735765)
You spelled "simplicity" wrong. Given that there are no surviving former slaves, the answers to the "Who?" and "How much?" questions couldn't be simpler: "No one" and "$0."


I am not in favor of reparations. Just interested in the idea of it.
   90. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 07:10 PM (#4735769)
And it's worth pointing out again that Coates explicitly avoids the argument of direct payments to avoid the rabbit hole of 'it's too complex to decide who deserves money.'
   91. Joe Kehoskie Posted: June 25, 2014 at 07:13 PM (#4735773)
And it's worth pointing out again that Coates explicitly avoids the argument of direct payments to avoid the rabbit hole of 'it's too complex to decide who deserves money.'

He avoids the argument because he knows people would have focused on the number and then laughed at it (probably from both sides), not because he doesn't believe there should be reparations to individuals. Otherwise, he wouldn't have used the controversial word "reparations" in the first place. He would have argued for "community investment" or something like that.
   92. zenbitz Posted: June 25, 2014 at 07:14 PM (#4735774)
Since this is about dead people who stole from dead people, maybe we should use increased Estate Taxes to pay Funeral Expenses.
   93. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 07:17 PM (#4735777)
And it's worth pointing out again that Coates explicitly avoids the argument of direct payments to avoid the rabbit hole of 'it's too complex to decide who deserves money.'


Well he lacks imagination. We've put men on the moon, I don't think this is too large an undertaking.

The important and most advantageous aspect of my proposal is the fulcrum of reparations vs continued participation in this great American experiment. Nobody disputes historic mistreatment, and nobody disputes enormous improvements in these areas over recent generations. The question posed to the historically oppressed then becomes, "Do you see the light at the end of the tunnel and wish to continue to move forward as a nation," versus, "Screw this, I'm cashing out and moving on." Only those who feel their historic oppression and loss of potential outweigh the positive benefits of being an American, with all the benefits and disadvantages that entails would seek such reparations, and in all frankness if an individual truly feels so marginalized, it's a moral crime to force them to stay, and a gesture of true contrition to allow them to leave with some degree of awarded wealth.
   94. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 07:18 PM (#4735779)
No, he simply makes the moral case for reparations policy. I'm aware that you haven't read the article, JoeK.
   95. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: June 25, 2014 at 07:21 PM (#4735784)
Nobody disputes historic mistreatment, and nobody disputes enormous improvements in these areas over recent generations. The question posed to the historically oppressed then becomes, "Do you see the light at the end of the tunnel and wish to continue to move forward as a nation," versus, "Screw this, I'm cashing out and moving on."


Somehow I suspect you'd sing a different tune if the world stumbled upon a few vaults full of Jewish valuables confiscated by the Nazis, hanging around a Swiss cubby hole somewhere.
   96. McCoy Posted: June 25, 2014 at 07:22 PM (#4735785)
My grandfather was born in Italy, drafted into WW2 to bomb his old homeland, and had his land taken from him by the government in the 80's. Why exactly should I be paying into a reperation fund? Because I'm white?
   97. PreservedFish Posted: June 25, 2014 at 07:25 PM (#4735786)
YR's plan reminds me of how Zappos offers new employees a nice check for almost immediately quitting.
   98. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 25, 2014 at 07:27 PM (#4735787)
Somehow I suspect you'd sing a different tune if the world stumbled upon a few vaults full of Jewish valuables confiscated by the Nazis, hanging around a Swiss cubby hole somewhere.


I can't imagine why. Am I supposed to feel somehow entitled to any misappropriated "Jewish valuables"?
   99. McCoy Posted: June 25, 2014 at 07:27 PM (#4735788)
Someone should ask Stuart Best what he thinks of it all.
   100. Bhaakon Posted: June 25, 2014 at 07:30 PM (#4735792)
Somehow I suspect you'd sing a different tune if the world stumbled upon a few vaults full of Jewish valuables confiscated by the Nazis, hanging around a Swiss cubby hole somewhere.


The two problems with this are 1) There are still holocaust survivors kicking around who can make a direct and indisputably legitimate claim on said treasure, and 2) As far as I'm aware, there are no stashes of hidden slaver gold. It's one thing to find a cash of stolen treasure that's been sitting in a vault out of circulation for a half a century, it's quite another to seize a piece of real estate that's been bought and sold or inherited a several in public, apparently legitimate sales since it was stolen. The later is much messier process that involves harming one or more innocent, or at least ignorant, parties to right the initial wrong.
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