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I have a theory that Vujacic is either one of your 3 favorite players or one of your 3 least favorite players, so I try to take as many subtle digs at him as possible. If there was a stat for message board conversations per in-game contribution, he would probably lead the league.
LOL
I don't think that's even figurative.
I have no idea if this means anything, but this is the ordination of 2008-09 Win Shares for PGs:
Chris Paul 17.5
Chauncey Billups 10.4
Rajon Rondo 9.7
Mo Williams 9.4
Andre Miller 8.6
Deron Williams 8.5
Jason Kidd 8.4
Tony Parker 8.3
Steve Nash 7.6
Devin Harris 7.4
With the exception of Mo Williams, who probably is overrated by Win Shares due to playing alongside LBJ, this list looks fairly accurate to me (give or take say 1 WS each) as to the best PGs of the past season (esp if you account for time lost to injury).
I meant it literally. I think Sasha must be the most annoying guy in the league. I don't know what it is that he does out there, but people seem to just hate him.
If kevin were here he could tell you how peja is better than kobe, but let's not speak ill of the dead....
As to KG not being "clutch." He's not. Great team player. Great defender. But when the game is on the line, he's got Chris Webber-itis, he can't get rid of the ball fast enough. Basketball and baseball are completely different sports. In basketball, part of being clutch is wanting the ball for that final shot. You can easily run and hide and let someone else take the last shot. In baseball, if it's not your turn to bat, there's nothing you can do.
And the bully act of KG he does wears thin on me. Reminds me a lot of Alonzo Mourning and the #### he used to pull to be a "tough" guy.
Besides, none of them can live up to the my favorite bully: Bill Laimbeer. :)
True, true. At least that's the impression I got when I watched my beleaguered Hoyas play some of their worst D since the Esherick years.
I think the reason the basketball threads are fun is that they aren't as common. Maybe the two most popular threads right now are basketball and newspapers, but there have still been more posts today on baseball threads. And once my other hobby's thread goes away, I'll go back to baseball. Unless somebody posts a WWE, Grateful Dead, or NCAA Football 2009 thread...
The point was that the perception of many of the two IMO has to do with context, not any changes in the guys themselves. Many Lakers fans (and now Bulls fans) think KG is a prick now--but I think he's probably the same guy he was in Minnesota. You may think he is a great guy, like andrew does, or that he is just a guy who competes hard and has some annoying mannerisms, like I do, but it is the situation that has changed, not him. If the Lakers had him, 99% of those same people would love him. Same with the Bulls--both fanbases were lusting after KG when he was on the block two winters ago. A lot of people seem to think Kobe's dickishness (which, like his playing skill, is I think a bit overamplified) was a big reason the Lakers sucked three years ago and that he is more mature now; I think he is probably pretty much the same guy, just with better players around him.
As to their games, it is tougher in some respects for a post player to be a go-to guy in the 4th due to double-teaming and zones. Garnett does have some moves he can go to when he is facing the rim, but it is easier to get the ball out of his hands than it is to get the ball out of a guy like Kobe's--which is, of course, both good and bad. Sometimes Kobe forces shots when he shouldn't, and that generally gets attributed to his "being a dick." But the last couple of years, he usually only "takes over" or tries to, when the team seems to want that, (like Game 4 in Utah) and I think the 5-for-24 games, like Game 3 in Utah, are as much about his limitations as a player as they are about his personality. I recall an article about Bill Bradley which said that Bradley had some unique elements in his visual perception and peripheral vision that made him able to be a great passer.
Don't get me wrong--having played a lot of ball, I know that passing is partly a decision. But it is also a talent, and I think that Kobe is about as good as he can be.
This is an understatement. The Lakers kicked Cleveland's ass both times they saw them, once without Bynum, and went 65-17 even though Bynum missed 32 games. I think it will go 6 or 7, if they both get there. LeBron will have to go "40-12-8" four or five times for the Cavs to win.
And he may well do just that. Before I get dismissed as a Laker fanboy, I picked the Celtics (in 7, not 6) last year before the Finals when a lot of people in the
But first things first. Houston is not going to be easy.
The scary part about the Cavs for me, as a Laker fan, is that Odom will have to play consistently well for the Lakers to win. The idea of Odom NEEDING to be consistent over a 7 game series scares the hell out of me.
IIRC, I mentioned at that relevant time that I thought Kobe had has best season yet and was starting to grow as a player and a person (he was the epitome of spoiled brat in his early years). IIRC, that all changed in the playoffs when he started that "Its not me, its them" crap, and wanted to reprise his Theo Epstein drama queen performance.
In fact, I thought our major disagreement during that period was whether guys like Odom, Vujacic, etc were "good players." I think we did agree that your team has a problem if Luke Walton is your third best player.
Regardless, it is not a fair assessment of Kobe's growth and change as a player. The transformation wasn't last year after the Gasol trade. It was about three years ago. It just hit its peak, and we saw what kind of player Kobe could be, last summer on Team USA.
I haven't watched the Lakers as much this year as in previous years. If for no other reason, Phil Jackson gives me the sour belches worse than Kobe. However, in the games I have seen, he has learned how to play a role with his team rather than worrying about whether someone else is going to get a little attention from the media.
If Bynam stays healthy, and Pau remembers this isn't the Euroleague or dancin with the stars, then the Lakers are going to be tough to beat, even with their Jurassic Point Guard.
Every time I see news on Wall, his colleges under consideration seems to grow.
Reggie Miller advocates for young players to go to smaller D1 programs. He thinks Steph Curry was able to get better experiences making his own mistakes at a Davidson than just rotating to an open perimeter shot at a Duke or UNC.
Nevertheless, I presume Ol' Roy is still going to make a strong run. I don't think he is comfortable with Drew at the point. K likes him and would like to move Eliot Williams to SG.
Nor should he be. That said, I don't see Wall in CH, not at all.
Reggie Miller dropped this one on us earlier in the game: "When Davis doesn't come back on defense, it gives the other team the advantage on offense."
The second half of that game was one of the worst looking stretches of playoff basketball eva. Three-point brick put up by Orlando- followed by two-point brick by Celtics- followed by bail out whistle and two free throws. Wash, rinse, repeat. I'll bet the total number of field goals by both teams in that second half couldn't have been much higher than 20.
I'm a Laker fan and in my life "I" have received the benefit of more star calls than probably any other fan, but I'm convinced that NBA officiating is reaching new lows in terms of deference to certain teams and players. The first half of the Rockets-Lakers game was no exception. Call the game- not the jerseys please.
Fisher isn't even guarding Brooks when he's standing still. It's awful. And Odom has been asleep. Without Kobe heating up, this would be a blowout.
Who says the stars get all the calls? Kobe prayed for that loose ball, and the ref almost laughed at him. That was a great exchange.
Seriously. wtf.
Anti-semite.
However, I think the Magic/Celtics game is more typical of what we should expect this series. Boston is drained right now. Pierce tried to carry the team for a couple of stretches, but he just doesn't have the legs to work that hard an entire game. Ray Allen is going to have games likes this just because of his age. This is more typical of what we should expect out of Rondo (not the 22/10/10/1TO from the Bulls series), but 7TO for him is ridiculous. But that's the difference between Rose and Skip defensively. I don't expect both teams to go through huge shooting slumps like both did tonight, that was crazy.
When those dopes actually focus on the damn game (and by "dopes" I mean Breen & Van Gundy, as Marc Jackson is a waste of space), they're one of the best announcer / analyst combos available. Contrast that w/ Marv & Mike Fratello, where I don't mind if they talk about the game or their love-hate relationship, mostly because NOTE TO ABC they save the shtick for when the game's not happening. If I had my druthers, Dan Schulman and Hubie Brown would do as many games as possible, and Reggie Miller would be dropped off the coast of Florida with his sister & Craig Sager's sartorial flair.
The RM moment re: Big Baby getting bopped on the head and "causing" the 5-on-4 was a highlight, but I was also partial to Reggie talking over a clip of Marbury hitting a 20-foot jumper, and misidentifying it as a 3. On two seperate occassions. With Marbury's feet & the 3-point arc (& Marbury's back foot clearly ON THE LINE) in the shot.
That was a great game last night. Far better than any of the "basketball" that was played.
Feel free to submit an NHL Playoffs thread to bookend this one.
There's more than enough time and space in the world to enjoy baseball, hockey, and basketball. Why does basketball get scare quotes? I could do the same thing for the "hockey" game last night. Ovechkin's 3rd goal was nice, but Fleury really should have been able to stop it. And I don't know if Crosby's third goal goes in without the suspension-worthy cross check on Varlamov. But the home team winning isn't as big of a story as the road team winning 2 game 1s. Especially the Rockets beating the Lakers.
I was trying to be a bit snarky, but that got lost.
To be clear -there has been some very good basketball played this year, just not last night. This is why I put it in quotes.
Ouch!
There are few telecasts by Brown where I don't learn something new. He was also the coach of the Hawks when I started watching the NBA, so I mark out for him. I remeber one game, Tree Rollins got into a scuffle with Wes Unseld; Hubie hit the floor and was about to go after Unseld.
Boston is drained right now. Pierce tried to carry the team for a couple of stretches, but he just doesn't have the legs to work that hard an entire game. Ray Allen is going to have games likes this just because of his age. This is more typical of what we should expect out of Rondo (not the 22/10/10/1TO from the Bulls series), but 7TO for him is ridiculous.
Yes, Rondo looked the most tired. Those 2 free throws where he hit an airball and then barely hit the front of the rim were very telling.
But that's the difference between Rose and Skip defensively.
Alston's contribution to the Magic is a bit underrated. They would still be a far different team with Jameer, but he does provide good on ball defense, and can run the team adequately.
Nevertheless, I don't think he could have done what Aaron Brooks did last night. (more below)
But like someone up thread said, the Rockets still had to work hard all night to score.
Except with Brooks. Last night, the Lakers got outcoached. Phil Jackson has always had this strange habit of getting a woodie on some mediocre player and giving them minutes when there are much better options. Right now he's got a hardon for Shannon Brown, and has put Farmar in his doghouse. Farmar is the defender he needs for Brooks. Jurassic Fisher is not going to be able to guard him. Jackson's one good move of putting Vucacic on Wafer was immediately nuetralized when Adelman went to Brooks and Lowery.
Also, props to Yao. I think some of Artest has rubbed off on him. At one point, I think he told Pau, "You're my #####, this series."
LA looked a little rusty and out of sync early, and I think anytime Kobe takes 31 shots it's too much (unless he's hitting about 2/3 of them).
I agree. I think he took just about the right number in the first half. Very few were forced. He just shot poorly and that is going to happen from time to time. However, in the 3rd quarter we saw the transition to Mamba. What is worse for the Lakers is that he made a few shots, so you got a full game full of Mamba. In most of those shots, Battier had a hand so far in his face he could have picked his nose.
Instead of exploiting the mismatch and spacing the Lakers were getting with Bynum and Odom, it was Mamba jumpers. When they didn't fall, it was Kobe flinging himself against other players in the painted area.
Houston can defend the penetration; survive contested Js, etc. Houston is going to have major trouble defending all of the Lakers post options and spot up shooters. Houstan's best chance is More Mamba.
That was a major secret to the success. During most of the time when the game was originally in question, Houston kept Mamba off the free throw line IN LA. If the Rockets can keep the clamps on Mamba and pull off another win, expect to see the Stern Squad (Dick Bavetta's crew or Bennett Salvatore's crew) to show up in Game 3 and give Mamba about 27 free throws.
Farmar can't defend anyone, particularly not Brooks. Farmar's also played very poorly in the second half and is not, in any way, a better defensive player than Fisher or Brown. Brown is a vastly superior defensive player to Farmar and because he's been shooting well (which may be a fluke) he's been getting the minutes.
In any case, if the Brooks problem persists, expect to see Ariza on him for crucial stretches. His length allows to play back a step and he is as quick as any guard on the team.
I hope not. After watching the third quarter of the Celtics game I'm beginning to wonder if the league isn't going to just put jerseys on certain officials to avoid anymore confusion.
Yeah, Hubie Brown is far and away the best. He's just dry, and can come across as uninterested to a casual fan. But he's a natural teacher, and he's always teaching. I love it. I wish we would have had a game during the Bulls/Celtics series just to hear him talk about everything VDN and Doc were doing wrong. I hate Doug Collins at times. He does know a lot, but he's wrong a lot too. Here's a nice rant by Kelly Dwyer on Collins (scroll down to the Philly/Chicago section).
Alston's contribution to the Magic is a bit underrated. They would still be a far different team with Jameer, but he does provide good on ball defense, and can run the team adequately.
He's a much better defender than Jameer, but a worse shooter and more turnover prone. Orlando has had problems all year when they just fall in love with shooting 3s, and that's stayed with they had to go with Skip; the problem of course is that Jameer is so much better at shooting 3s and for the most part picks better spots to shoot them.
Also, props to Yao. I think some of Artest has rubbed off on him. At one point, I think he told Pau, "You're my #####, this series."
I missed that. But yeah, that's great to hear. He needs a bit of a mean streak. Houston really struggled getting him the ball early (which was surprising after Bynum's quick fouls), but Artest was making shots so they never really fell behind.
Except with Brooks. Last night, the Lakers got outcoached. Phil Jackson has always had this strange habit of getting a woodie on some mediocre player and giving them minutes when there are much better options. Right now he's got a hardon for Shannon Brown, and has put Farmar in his doghouse. Farmar is the defender he needs for Brooks. Jurassic Fisher is not going to be able to guard him. Jackson's one good move of putting Vucacic on Wafer was immediately nuetralized when Adelman went to Brooks and Lowery.
Good point. I kinda forget about Fisher, and then always wonder why he plays so much. He's basically House or Pargo with a better reputation. Phil has always loved him more than he should. I think Brown is adequate defensively (he was quite good in college), but he hasn't been with the Lakers long enough really fit into the team defense as well as Farmar.
And I wanted to put this in another post, but this deserves a hearty "Well said." I 100% CONCUR.
Don't get me started on this; I could go on and on for hours just on the Bulls/Celtics series. And it's not just the officials....ok, rant averted.
Jackson seems to be coaching scared. He's afraid to leave Bynum on the floor, he's afraid to take his beloved Fisher off the floor, he's afraid to use Farmar. And allowing 57 points allowed in the second half, at home? In the playoffs? Embarrassing.
I definitely agree with this. However, as frustrating as last night's game was, I'm not really that concerned with the series. The Lakers shot horribly, executed horribly, and forgot to guard Brooks.
I feel like that was a horrible game by the Lakers and they still had a decent chance to win. Shooting 2/17 from three or whatever it was at the end is no way to win a basketball game.
The prescription is simple: fix the Brooks penetration problem, knock down some threes, go hard in the post against Scola's man. I'd expect a game 2 blowout win (which always seems to happen after a favorite loses game 1).
We won't really know much about the series until game 3. Winner of game 3 wins the series, I think.
Oh, and I think Boston is cooked.
We'll find out in Game 2 if that disparity was just a fluke. It isn't uncommon, though, to have one team make it the the free-throw line far more than the other in a series. That doesn't reflect officiating bias (normally). It's usually a byproduct of aggressive, penetrating offense (Hou) versus a team of jump-shooters (L.A.?).
*Odom is a weak outside shooter in general (beyond 15 feet), and has become a poor free-throw shooter. He made just 62 percent of his FT's this year, his worst ever.
I don't think it was a fluke, since the Rockets won the game without shooting lights out--.479 overall and 5/18 on 3s. The Lakers were 2/17 on 3s, which probably won't happen again but nothing else says "fluke." I see three keys to Game 2:
1. I posted at FBG and said the same thing tshipman said: everyone is pissed off about the offense, but first and foremost they need to do a better job on Brooks, by using Farmar and Brown more, and adjusting the scheme to keep him out of the lane more. And Kobe needs to work harder on Artest. Like my HS coach said, "If you need to rest, rest on on the bench or offense. Never on defense." You can live with Yao scoring 28--but not with Artest and Brooks combining for 40. As frustrating as it is watching Kobe launch contested jumpers all night (he shot 26 jumpers, making 9), the team still scored 92 points, enough to beat the Rockets if you do the job on D. You give up 100 to the Rockets, you are done.
2. Adelman said the game plan was based on keeping Kobe away from the rim, and they did that. keying the FT disparity. Of course everyone SAYS they want to do that, but the Rockets actually have the personnel to make it happen. If they can do it consistently, they can take the series. The Lakers also need to force the pace--that is yet another reason Farmar, warts and all, should get more burn.
3. Use Gasol/Odom/Bynum in high/low to attack Scola/Hayes/Landry on the blocks and move the ball better in general (this is the one thing Luke Walton brings to the table and he's out).
One macro-note: I was very wrong about the Lakers two years ago--I never thought this team would be this good (and even if they lose to Houston or Denver, that statement still holds). One reason for that is that I never thought that Kupchak would be able to get a good big man without trading Odom or Bynum. Wrong. Another reason was while the team has a vet core, it does have a few young guys, notably Bynum, Vujacic, and Farmar, who are rotation players. And Phil Jackson, in his 60s with nine rings, is a guy who is going to go with vets. Last year, it seemed I was wrong about that, too. But this year, Farmar and Vujacic have regressed; working Bynum in with Odom and Gasol seems to be becoming a problem rather than an asset. That is not all on Jackson, of course--Farmar and Vujacic just aren't that good and Bynum is still a kid who gets hurt--but some of it is. And, in this series, Farmar and Bynum do specific things that the team needs that Fisher and Odom can't do. We will see if Jackson gets that.
Honestly, it's central to how they've built the team (to my eyes).
I wasn't picking on that word, per se. But like I said, Houston didn't shoot 55% or make 13 3s or something that is not repeatable percentage-wise. Brooks and Artest, who were 15/29 from the field, with three treys from Artest, were the key. If they do that three more times, Houston will win. EDIT: they probably won't .862 from the stripe again, either.
Farmar maynot be able to defend Brooks, but he has a better chance than Fisher. Fisher seldom makes mistakes, so he is useful in a situation where the Lakers are picking the other team apart, he can spot up and shoot jumpers, and move the ball in the half-court set. But in this matchup, the Lakers need to be aggressive and play some in transition, which means PJ should give Farmar a chance. When Fisher goes 0-4 on 3s, as he did last night, he is hurting the team.
As far as Kobe, again, the truth is in the middle. He forced some shots, but he does that when the other guys are playing like crap, and he is not Magic Johnson (or even Michael Jordan) as a passer.
BTW, I think Artest deserves extra credit for getting Kobe's attention. I'm curious to see how disciplined Bryant will be the rest of the series, what with Artest having called him out in the past and then getting the upper hand in this series.
He shot .567 for the year but was 6/14 last night. I would hit him on the blocks against Scola early in Game 2.
We are all victims of the liberal media.
I didn't say they were wholly successful. :)
Well, it all goes together–-the visceral part of the game and the Xs and Os. This team is very good but not truly dominant. Yet, sometimes they play as though they think they are truly dominant, which leads to mediocre effort on defense–-the most tangible sign of an overconfident team. Then when they get in trouble they tighten up, and count too much on Kobe--which might work if he really were Jordan, but he isn't. Add in Phil Jackson's detachment...it can be a problem when things go poorly.
I do think the fanbase was collectively overconfident about this series. And, it is sometimes tough for the hardcore blue-collar/middle-class fans to get playoff tickets. I think there will be more fire/noise tomorrow.
Bynum played a good game when he was on the floor. It isn't like he caught MikkiMoore diesease either. He only had foul problems in the 1st quarter.
We are all victims of the liberal media.
Lakers bias?
he is not Magic Johnson (or even Michael Jordan) as a passer.
Last night, I'm not even sure if he was Jeff Jordan as a passer.
Yep. Bynum scored 10 points in 15 minutes and was 5-10 from the field. He did have 3 PFs, but he should be getting 25-30 minutes a game in this series.
Jeff appears to realize his limitations as a basketball player. I think he's done a good job, considering the implications of being Michael's son. He doesn't try to do things that he can't (sadly, he appears to simply be a solid defender who knows the offense) and has accepted his role.
That was weird to me, too. Even when LA looked a little frisky in the last 3 minutes, the crowd was completely disengaged. Bad traffic, I guess.
I was impressed with Brooks, like everyone else, but both he and Artest shot about as well as they are going to from distance. I wouldn't say they were red-hot from the field, but we better than usual on shot selection. They got the ball into Yao more than usual, which led to a much more efficient offense that usual.
The Lakers should bounce back in game 2; I agree with rr that Gasol will be a much bigger factor, although I will give some credit to Scola for annoying him and keeping him from getting position early in the shot clock. Oh, and Bynum needs to stop thinking he's a jump shooter.
Boston looked dead tired to me, which was obviously a risk going into the series, but that hardly excuses their intense sloppiness. How about some more minutes for Starbury? He's the freshest guy in the series, and he had a hot hand.
Any predictions for tonight?
In the early game, I think Atlanta will do what everybody else does- coming out focused on Lebron-, and Lebron will be a distributor and opportunistic scorer for the first quarter, and the game will be within 5 points at the end of the first. By the end of the third he will quietly have 20+ points and about 7-8 assists, and Cleveland will lead by about 10. Atlanta will start trying to force offense in the fourth quarter, which plays into Cleveland's disciplined approach, and they will keep Atlanta under 15 points for the first 10 minutes of the 4th quarter, eventually winning about about 17 points. I'll say the final is 98-81. Al Horford won't show up, Murray will have less than one point per shot, and Ilgauskus will have a surprisingly efficient game.
I think I have been underrating Denver because Carmelo has been so deferential for the last couple of months. I took it as him not caring, but when he aggressively seeks his own shot like he did in game 1, that team has a very dynamic offensive attack. I think Kidd will bounce back- he has been great in the last couple of months and round 1, but was terrible in the last game. I thought Dallas would win this series going in because they looked so comfortable on offense, but they were definitely disrupted. I will say that Dallas keeps it closer, but Denver pulls out a close one while getting some calls in the last 5 minutes, and Carmelo scoring 30. Denver wins 107-102.
If that is the matchup in the finals (and the Cavs are a lock to get there), the Lakers have no chance. I'll be happy to actually make that wager if/when the time comes. Nothing is stopping the Cavs this year, barring injury.
Talking about the Finals with the Lakers down 1-0 to Houston is pretty pointless, but if they get there, they most certainly do have a good chance. I assume you are just feeling cocky because of the way Game 1 of the Hou/LA series went after the stuff you said about it.
After predictions this thorough, the rest of us cannot top them. I pretty much agree both your margins and results. WRT Denver/Dallas, Dirk no longer has enough help around him, and while Andersen/Smith/Carter will not play like all-stars every game, it is a very solid bench. Denver in 5 or 6. (I had them in 7 before Game 1, so that is my 'real' prediction) Cleveland in 5.
I figure the more specific things I predict, the more likely I am to get one of them right.
In Game 1 he was sort of a combination of Kurt Rambis and Dennis Rodman--with a midrange jumper to boot. If Denver is in the Finals, he will become a lot more famous than he is now.
Who was better tattoos:
(1) Blinn College's most famous alumni's colorful concoction
(2) Sheed's egyptian motif
(3) Haslem's backtoo of the state of Florida
What is it with the Marbury love? Not you, but the announcers. Reggie was riding Doc for not putting Steph back in. Actually, him hitting those 2 lucky runners on back to back possessions might have been the worst thing for the Celtics. That means Steph is gonna start trying to be Steph. It's one thing for him to get his shots in the flow of the offense (and he had a couple of open shots he hit) and not pass on the wide open shots. But if he's going to try and dominate the ball (which he did for the brief stretch, luckily yesterday he made those shots), that's bad, even if he's just out there with the other scrubs. I guess Celtics fans have to trust that Doc isn't going to give him the minutes to let that happen.
---
Tonight should be a big win for the Cleve, but they might be a little rusty early. I think Dallas is going to squeak out a close win tonight in Denver.
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