I don't think that'll happen. I think the Cavs watched L.A. cough it up in last night's Rockets-Lakers game and told themselves, "That's not gonna be us tonight," especially on the defensive end of the ball.

Easier said than done. EVERY team knows they might be rusty after a long layoff, not everyone has the ability to just not be rusty. I'm guessing LeBron carries them in the first, but it's going to take a little time on the court for the offense and defense to click.

Atlanta is horrible (couldn't even beat Miami) on the road and Cleveland is really tough at home. I'd be shocked if Cleveland dropped a home game in this series.

I assume you are just feeling cocky because of the way Game 1 of the Hou/LA series went after the stuff you said about it.

Yes, I'm 1 out of 3 so far. I had the Celtics beating Orlando rather easily, and Dallas beating the Nuggets. And actually, come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I picked the Lakers, too, I just thought Houston would give them more of a series than a lot of you guys expect. So make that an Oh-fer. That said, I couldn't be more confident in this Cavs team.

Ernie: For Atlanta to win Game 1, what do they have to do?
Barkley: ...Shoot LeBron James

Atlanta is horrible (couldn't even beat Miami) on the road and Cleveland is really tough at home. I'd be shocked if Cleveland dropped a home game in this series.

Atlanta won one of the three games played in Miami.

Atlanta won one of the three games played in Miami.

Nothing to see here, move along.

I thank you for correcting me and pity you for following that series closely enough to do so. In any case, I like Atlanta but I would still be very surprised if they collect any more road wins this season.

Nothing to see here, move along.

I thank you for correcting me and pity you for following that series closely enough to do so. In any case, I like Atlanta but I would still be very surprised if they collect any more road wins this season.

Only those of us who suffer through their inconsistency get a free pass to call them horrible. Nothing personal.

Ernie: For Atlanta to win Game 1, what do they have to do?
Barkley: ...Shoot LeBron James

LOL

Has Kenny The Jet ever said anything slightly amusing?

Why did the Cleveland PA system just play a few notes from the theme from "The Godfather"?

Now I want somebody to photoshop LeBron's head onto Michael Corleone at the end of the movie when his hand is being kissed.

In the early game, I think Atlanta will do what everybody else does- coming out focused on Lebron-, and Lebron will be a distributor and opportunistic scorer for the first quarter, and the game will be within 5 points at the end of the first. By the end of the third he will quietly have 20+ points and about 7-8 assists, and Cleveland will lead by about 10. Atlanta will start trying to force offense in the fourth quarter, which plays into Cleveland's disciplined approach, and they will keep Atlanta under 15 points for the first 10 minutes of the 4th quarter, eventually winning about about 17 points. I'll say the final is 98-81. Al Horford won't show up, Murray will have less than one point per shot, and Ilgauskus will have a surprisingly efficient game.

I'm taking a moment to pat myself on the back for a good prediction before I prove to know nothing in the late game.

I'm wondering why, exactly, James needs help from the officials as well. I mean, he's pretty good without getting Jordan rules. Here's hoping for a bad landing.

Here's hoping for a bad landing.

What do you mean by this?

In my world, there are two types of people. People who help my team win and people who should be injured.

Are the Nuggets this good?

Are the Nuggets this good?

Yes, they are.

In my world, there are two types of people. People who help my team win and people who should be injured.

There only scenario I can conceive wherein LeBron is injured involves speeding, a bit of alcohol and three Los Angeles Police Officers. Even then, the cops would be in for a rough time.

As an SU fan, I'll gladly root for a Carmelo-led team to take down a LeBron-led team in the finals.

I might even watch. Er, if there's nothing else on.

(Oh, Sam, I started Drood today. I'll let you know what I think when I'm done.)

Oh hell. I tried to put up some snarky Chick Fil A link.

http://www.cfasugarland.com/images/menu_nuggets_8.jpg

Whatever.

In contemplating the Nuggets, I'm torn between my hatred of Syracuse and my love of Lithuania. (The same conflict also arises with the Wizards, oddly enough.) But the fact that the Nuggets' centers are this guy, and a guy named after a flightless Hawaiian goose, make it tough to root against them.

There only scenario I can conceive wherein LeBron is injured involves speeding, a bit of alcohol and three Los Angeles Police Officers.

Oh, I'm sure ZaZa could clothesline him on his way to the basket and do some harm. I'd trade a couple of games from Z for a DL stint from James.

Does anybody not like Chris Andersen? He's America's favorite recovering addict! I was really glad to see that he'd actually improved his game a bit during his absence (particularly wrt his jumper).

I do not like Chris Anderson.

Yeah, but Chris Andersen is loveable. I'd also like to see David Andersen get some run next year, as might the rest of us Hawks fans...

In my world, there are two types of people. People who help my team win and people who should be injured.

Stay classy, Sam. :)

The only guys who deserve to be injured are the dirty players, like Rajon Rondo or Bill Laimbeer. As much as I find myself rooting against great players (Pujols, for instance), I'd feel like missing out on that greatness is worse than my team's loss. Not all the time, of course. I sure wouldn't complain if Pujols had to miss an NLCS series against the Cubs. Then again, KG being out helped the Bulls this part series (but not enough) and his sideline antics really made me wish he was in the game and that dumbass Tyrus Thomas could dunk on him.

I'm wondering why, exactly, James needs help from the officials as well.

I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hate the superstar officiating in the NBA. It's terrible. The most painful one for me was Wade in the Finals. I was a huge Wade fan, but the officials managed to turn me against him that series, and I know I'm not the only one who felt that way. Then again, complaining about officiating in a 27 point loss is kinda sad.

---

The Cavs were a little off early, but looked great in the 2nd half. I'm not officially in the group that will be surprised to see Atlanta win a single game. And Denver looked great offensively, I didn't think they could that consistently. I still think that'll be a long series, but damn the Nuggets look good now.

The only guys who deserve to be injured are the dirty players, like Rajon Rondo or Bill Laimbeer.

See, this is where we disagree on technical merits. You think dirty players deserve to be injured. I think any player who annoys me or detracts from my enjoyment of the game deserves to choke on his own snapped hamstrings. To that point, any player that contributes to my team not winning every time detracts from my enjoyment of the game.

And seriously, the Jordan rules aren't applied only to James. They're universally applied to his team as well, especially at home (just as the Celtics got absurd calls at home last year.) Wally Absurdslovakiannameishouldneverhavetotryandspell set about 400 moving picks last night, the ones on the defensive end being called charges on Atlanta. It's completely unacceptable. I'm hoping that ZaZa inbounds a ball into the refs face in game two.

And Denver looked great offensively, I didn't think they could that consistently. I still think that'll be a long series, but damn the Nuggets look good now.

Yeah, I've been wildly wrong on that series, and I think it's effectively over. Denver will lay at least one stinkbomb in Dallas and lose by double-digits, but they're clearly just the better team.

I'm not officially in the group that will be surprised to see Atlanta win a single game.

Get on board! I'm actually starting to think they might sail through the East 12-0. There isn't enough hyperbole to describe how good they look right now.

I think he meant "now officially", not "not officially" (though I could obviously be mistaken). FWIW, I think ATL will win one, albeit through unknown means.
Laimbeer, Rondo, etc... - these are all guys (or archetypes of them) I really admire(d) as players, from when I first started watching the game. Of course, this could explain why people have twice broken my nose in games...

Wally Absurdslovakiannameishouldneverhavetotryandspell set about 400 moving picks last night, the ones on the defensive end being called charges on Atlanta.

The moving pick has a new unofficial interpretation. The league seems to be allowing a moving pick unless the movement T-Bones a player (they will allow a blind side pick) or the defender is following the player with a sidestep.

Likewise, travelling seems to only be called if the player is out of direct control of their action, e.g. readjusting on a trap, changing a shot. Most every player is going to be allowed to pick both feet off the ground if they start their move sometime after that. (Kobe and Jordan always have both feet off the ground).

As for fouls, the "superstar" foul predates Jordan. It was around for the Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics. Jordan just took it HNL. He was once:

(1) Allowed to grab (not foul, grab) Hersey Hawkins;
(2) On a game tying FGA
(3) While he was caught underneath the basket and Hawkins was in optimal position
(4) on the last play of the game

Then in the press conference thereafter, admitted he grabbed him and told the Hornets to stop crying about it.

Of course everyone knows about the Bryan Russell play. Also, pre-Jordan there was an unwritten rule that if you entered the paint, the other team was allowed to plant you on your ass. Jordan AD indicates the star player can fling themselves at someone else and get a bailout foul call.

Lebron, to his credit, has not done as much egregious sh1t. Maybe he will when he gets older and loses a step. Wade and Kobe use the star rules more to their advantage.

What Lebron does that cracks me up, is react to every foul like it injured him.

Laimbeer, Rondo, etc... - these are all guys (or archetypes of them) I really admire(d) as players, from when I first started watching the game. Of course, this could explain why people have twice broken my nose in games...


I don't admire the dirty sh1t. I admire a player that plays hard and tough, like Oakley, Wallace, etc. On the Bad Boyz, I liked Mahorn. Laimbeer is just trash.

Here's where you regale me with anecdotes (and no doubt prove me wrong - I'll certianly grant that mine is a minority opinion), but I never saw Laimbeer as dirtier than Mahorn. Whinyier and more annoying (and less skilled), but not dirtier.

I never saw Laimbeer as dirtier than Mahorn

I think he was. There were a couple of times I saw him do stuff where someone could have really gotten hurt, against the Bulls and the Celtics in the playoffs. Mahorn was just mean and tough, but I don't recall him doing anything that was really dangerous. I may be misremembering.

Here's where you regale me with anecdotes (and no doubt prove me wrong - I'll certianly grant that mine is a minority opinion), but I never saw Laimbeer as dirtier than Mahorn. Whinyier and more annoying (and less skilled), but not dirtier.

As a Piston's fan since the mid 80's, I I never thought that Laimbeer was not dirtier. Both were dirty players. I always thought that Mahorn's was less subtle about it. I do think that many consider that type of play less dirty than some of the shenanigans that Laimbeer engaged in.

I do not agree that Laimbeer was less skilled. Different skills, but not less. He carved out a nice career in Detroit rebounding and hitting that quick jumper after setting the pick.

The only guys who deserve to be injured are the dirty players, like Rajon Rondo or Bill Laimbeer.

Seriously? Usually, when you're making the funny, you put the joke guy at the end of the list. And if you (and other folks) are seriously calling Rondo "dirty," then y'all seriously need to get one (1) clue.

Here's where you regale me with anecdotes

Bill Laimbeer would intentionally elbow, or in his words "chuck" players, many times trying to hurt them. He was Kenyon Martin's worse day, every day. Mahorn just set some nasty screens. Laimbeer admitted he did these things saying that he had to use every weapon at his disposal. Yes, Laimbeer whined like a infant Derrick Coleman with diaper rash, but he was also just dirty.

Nevertheless, I'll let others do the talking, Here is Rod Thorn over just a brief two year period (I can't find all records of fines or fights):

May 23, 1987 Fined $5,000 for committing a flagrant foul on Larry Bird of Boston.

Nov. 11, 1988 Fined $1,000 for a shoving match with Robert Parish of Boston.

Jan. 27, 1989 Fined $5,000 and suspended for one game for fighting with Brad Daugherty of Cleveland (bl-after elbowing him in the throat).


Lenny Wilkins:

''Don't tell me some of the stuff Laimbeer does isn't intentional,'' Wilkens said. ''I played this game. There are a lot of physical players in this league, guys like Karl Malone and Moses Malone. But you never see them getting in as many incidents as Laimbeer. Laimbeer keeps saying he never punched anyone before he swung at Brad, but so what? That's like saying I've pushed people in front of cars, but I've never actually run anyone over until today.''

Source


Kurt Rambis

Former Laker, Kurt Rambis, on Laimbeer: “I assume his parents like him. But you’d have to verify that.”

Frank Layden

Former Utah Jazz GM, Frank Layden, on Charles Barkley: “I would gladly chip in and pay part of his fines every time he smacks Bill Laimbeer.”

Jan Hubbard

Sportswriter Jan Hubbard: “Detroit center Bill Laimbeer was considering seeking an injuction against the Olympic selection process because he was deprived of a chance to make the team. Laimbeer said that as a tax-paying citizen, he should have had the opportunity to try out for the team. It would have been great if he could have tried out for the team, because then he would have been excluded on merit rather than logic.”

Sir Charles

Letter from Charles Barkley to Bill Laimbeer, I think in 1989:
Dear Bill,
F*ck You.
Charles

Sources

Robert Parish let his fist do the talking.

I think he meant "now officially", not "not officially" (though I could obviously be mistaken). FWIW, I think ATL will win one, albeit through unknown means.

Correct. I meant now. I think Orlando will win a game or two against Cleveland on a night their 3 point shooting is especially hot.

Wally Absurdslovakiannameishouldneverhavetotryandspell set about 400 moving picks last night, the ones on the defensive end being called charges on Atlanta. It's completely unacceptable.

They almost never call moving picks now. It's almost as if they're unofficially legal now. Maybe a token one or two if the guy sticks his ass out or his elbows. It was a problem the whole Bulls/Celtics series. Bulls fans (including me) were complaining about every pick that either Perkins or Davis set (look at any of Allen's clutch 3's and you'll see either one or both of them blocking for him as if they were an NFL fullback) and the Celtics fans complained about all of Noah's picks (he's always moving, partly being of his hyper-activeness and partly because he needs to move to keep from getting knocked over).

I don't admire the dirty sh1t. I admire a player that plays hard and tough, like Oakley, Wallace, etc. On the Bad Boyz, I liked Mahorn. Laimbeer is just trash.

Agreed.

Seriously? Usually, when you're making the funny, you put the joke guy at the end of the list. And if you (and other folks) are seriously calling Rondo "dirty," then y'all seriously need to get one (1) clue.

It's partly a joke and partly true. Like BL said above, there's a line between a hard or playoff foul and dirty. Rondo WAS dirty in that series, we'll see if he stays a dirty player or not. I'm still pissed how the league covered up for Rondo's crap in the playoffs (not to rehash an argument I've had, not here though, Rondo's foul on Miller was without a doubt a flagrant 1 and while the no-call didn't cause the Bulls to lose, it virtually eliminated the chances of them winning, and the league refusing to acknowledge it afterwards just to avoid controversy really really pisses me off; and then he got away with only a flagrant one for tossing Hinrich into the scorers table AND throwing an elbow at him - although lucky for him he missed on the elbow).

Mahorn just set some nasty screens.

I am not sure that is quite true.

From an SI article in 1989:

"That assessment of Mahorn's blow might surprise Price, and it definitely would surprise Rod Thorn, the NBA's vice-president of operations, who fined Mahorn $5,000 for his love tap. The fine was Mahorn's third this season for playing too rough—total cost: $11,000—and it only enhanced his image as the NBA's chief bully. "I'll play, I'll help us win, if it kills me. If it kills you," he says."

SI cite

That is not to say that Laimbeer was not dirty.

Sorry - I meant Laimbeer was more skilled than Mahorn (thinking specifically of his shot).
To be clear, I never claimed Laimbeer isn't/wasn't perceived as dirtier (wikipedia could clear that up for me pretty quickly), just that I never saw that difference when I watched them play (also of note: my NBA watching was in its relative infancy in their heyday - it really bloomed circa '91 or so).

I think Rondo is a dirty player, though not as much as, say, Chris Paul (and almost everybody likes Paul).

I think Rondo is a dirty player, though not as much as, say, Chris Paul (and almost everybody likes Paul).

The elbow to the groin? That was college though. Has he done anything like that in the NBA? I haven't noticed it or heard it mentioned at all. That doesn't mean it isn't true though; no one ever talked about how dirty John Stockton was. Pat Riley always accused Kirk Hinrich of being dirty while guarding Wade and blamed Wade's wrist injury a couple of seasons ago on Hinrich (he claims Hinrich grabbed his wrist when it got hurt, replays show that wasn't true). James Posey was a dirty #### when on Miami, he targeted Luol Deng for some reason.

I hadn't paid that close of attention to Rondo before this last series, so I can't speak beyond that.

I think Rondo is a dirty player, though not as much as, say, Chris Paul (and almost everybody likes Paul).

The elbow to the groin? That was college though. Has he done anything like that in the NBA? I haven't noticed it or heard it mentioned at all. That doesn't mean it isn't true though; no one ever talked about how dirty John Stockton was. Pat Riley always accused Kirk Hinrich of being dirty while guarding Wade and blamed Wade's wrist injury a couple of seasons ago on Hinrich (he claims Hinrich grabbed his wrist when it got hurt, replays show that wasn't true). James Posey was a dirty #### when on Miami, he targeted Luol Deng for some reason.

I hadn't paid that close of attention to Rondo before this last series, so I can't speak beyond that.

From speaking with guys who played against him at Duke, apparently he was a notorious nut puncher. In addition, from watching him play in the NBA, despite the fact that he is my 2nd favorite player, he does strike me as a dirty player. He just does it in a way that is sneaky enough that he probably won't get called on it for a while. Kind of like an insanely more talented Charlie Ward.

Paul was also accused of punching Bruce Bowen in the nether regions. Bowen likely deserved whatever he got, mind you.
I think the Paul/Stockton comparison is apt in this (general) context.

I remember seeing Rondo undercut people while at UK.

Paul was also accused of punching Bruce Bowen in the nether regions. Bowen likely deserved whatever he got, mind you.

Oh yeah, forgot about that one. I think it was revenge, but aiming for the nuts is dirty.

I remember seeing Rondo undercut people while at UK.

I understand when it occasionally happens, espeically with a smaller player, but that is one of the more dangerous dirty plays around.

Pat Riley always accused Kirk Hinrich of being dirty ...

The only recent vintage Bull that would come to my mind would be Nocini. Most of that Laimbeer crap got legislated out of the NBA. Last night, K-Mart got a technical foul for walking away from a fight (which I think is going to be counterproductive).

The only guys that I think about now as being dirty are Bowen, K-Mart, Jason Terry (another member of the all nutpunch team).

On the all time teams, I think about

Laimbeer
Stockton
Malone

It's going to take a good player getting his knee blown out by someone setting a moving screen for enforcement of the rule to revert to something resembling how it's written.

It's going to take a good player getting his knee blown out by someone setting a moving screen for enforcement of the rule to revert to something resembling how it's written.

Yep, the "old picket fence" is starting to turn into "student body right"

The only recent vintage Bull that would come to my mind would be Nocini.

Noce is closer to Vujacic than someone like Bowen. And I'm not defending Nocioni, because I hated him on the Bulls. Annoying and physical, but not all out dirty.

Here's Riley on Hinrich:

"Hinrich pulled his hand. He does it all the time," Riley told reporters. "That's what he does. Anytime Dwyane comes off screens, they will always grab his shirt or grab his hands. It's a tactic down below the body -- the official can't see it. He had Dwyane's hand, and [when Wade] tried to pull it out of there, I think something happened."

Same game, and link, talk about one of Posey's many shots on Deng. The link also talks about some of Posey's previous exploits against the Bulls. One of which was a play where he hip checked Hinrich on a fast break during the playoffs. IIRC, he was suspended for that play (or maybe he was just ejected).

Rondo's foul on Miller was without a doubt a flagrant 1 and while the no-call didn't cause the Bulls to lose, it virtually eliminated the chances of them winning, and the league refusing to acknowledge it afterwards just to avoid controversy really really pisses me off; and then he got away with only a flagrant one for tossing Hinrich into the scorers table AND throwing an elbow at him - although lucky for him he missed on the elbow).

I completely agree with both of your points. I was discussing this issue with a friend yesterday, and we figured that it was a slippery slope where the league kept having to excuse more and more of his behavior to justify what he had done before/keep the suspension from deciding the series. The league never got as much heat for rough play (I'm not counting fighting fans as "rough play") as it did for suspending Amare in the SA series, so they're hyper-aware of over-penalizing.

In that light, I agree that it was dumb to give double T's to KMart and Hollins (I think it was Hollins) last night. What's wrong with a ref taking each guy aside on a dead ball and telling him to chill out or else he's going to get a serious penalty?

Did the total lack of the Mavs' transition D bother anyone else? Denver jumped in every passing lane and gambled on every possible over-play because throughout the game, every deflection led to an uncontested dunk. If you have to execute a 3-2 or a 2-1 to score, there's some deterrent to gambling on D, but if you have a 100% chance of getting a bucket, that skews the calculation. Maybe Kidd and Terry are tired from playing a lot of minutes in the playoffs, but it seemed altogether unacceptable.

The league never got as much heat for rough play (I'm not counting fighting fans as "rough play") as it did for suspending Amare in the SA series, so they're hyper-aware of over-penalizing.

In that light, I agree that it was dumb to give double T's to KMart and Hollins (I think it was Hollins) last night.

I think that is the problem. The league does not think about unintended consequences when it tweaks the rules.

They don't want players to get involved in massive brawls--that is understandable. They create penalties for the behavior-- that is understandable. The penalties have the ability to make a huge impact on the competitive landscape for innocent behaviors---that is not acceptable.

It would be much easier to:

Leaving the Bench - a fine
Entering the court - a second fine
Participating in a fight - a third fine
Swinging fists, kickes, other assaultive behavior -- a suspension

Likewise, refs shouldn't be allowed to have the "easy out" double technical in the regular season, and then in the post season have them aggregate to a suspension. If an event can lead to a suspension, it should be subject to league review, appeal, and seperate adjudication.

Moreover, I thought that whining like a baby was suppose to be grounds for a technical. Why didn't Kobe get T'ed up after that out-of-bounds display?

Does anybody not like Chris Andersen? He's America's favorite recovering addict!

Even over Josh Hamilton?

Please, Hamilton is so last year. Even over Downey Jr.

"Hinrich pulled his hand. He does it all the time," Riley told reporters. "That's what he does. Anytime Dwyane comes off screens, they will always grab his shirt or grab his hands. It's a tactic down below the body -- the official can't see it. He had Dwyane's hand, and [when Wade] tried to pull it out of there, I think something happened."

This is why I think there was more to the Rondo toss of Hinrich than the replays showed. I think that ref on the back side saw something with Hinrich on Rondo during the box out. His arm had to get in there somehow.

The replays of the Hinrich / Rondo "throw-down" I saw showed Hinrich aggressively boxing / screening Rondo out and pushing Rondo out of bounds towards the bench area during a Bulls shot attempt -- the two of them probably traveled 15 feet, Rondo riding Hinrich's back, and Hinrich unwilling to unhook him. When Rondo (supposedly) couldn't disengage himself from Hinrich after the Celtics got the rebound (and were just about past Rondo going down towards their basket), he yanked one arm free and flung / swung Hinrich around with the other into the scorer's table. That led to Hinrich stepping up to Rondo.

Saying that Rondo's the only one @ fault in that showdown is disingenous at best. The call during the game was a Flagrant 1 on Hinrich & a technical on Rondo, right? Or was it the other way around?

Two other thoughts about the late game last night:

The Mavs are a different team with Josh Howard. He can get easy baskets by getting to the rim when he's crowded on defense. The team sorely lacked that ability last night, as was abundantly clear every time Kidd got by a defender, but was afraid to try to finish at the rim.

Also, Denver is insanely, obscenely, obesely deep. They're using an 8 man rotation, which is about the right number for a good team. I think Karl is doing a really good job with playing time, but Dallas's failure to get to the rim has made it easy for him not having to work around fouls. But Andersen is a super-sub- he'd never work as a full time starter at the level of intensity he plays, but he's incredibly valuable for two 6 minute stretches per game. J.R. Smith is a legitimate starter. Microwave guys like him are fun to watch, and he and Jones complement each other nicely as an offense-defense platoon. And Johnson is the kind of steady backup PG that will not hurt you in the playoffs- sort of a poor man's Eric Snow. Even if somebody gets hurt, Kleiza and Balkman are legitimate rotation guys who could play 15-20 minutes per night and be very useful. I know LA gets a ton of credit for their deep bench, but I think Cleveland is the only team in the playoffs with a better working rotation than Denver at this moment.

Saying that Rondo's the only one @ fault in that showdown is disingenous at best. The call during the game was a Flagrant 1 on Hinrich & a technical on Rondo, right? Or was it the other way around?

Tech on Hinrich and Flag1 on Rondo. Hinrich is not innocent, but if an Irish Whip into the scorer's table does not rise to the level of the highest penalty, you might as well get rid of that classification.

I will say this, you guys talking about basketball is far more interesting to me than actually watching basketball.

And Johnson is the kind of steady backup PG that will not hurt you in the playoffs- sort of a poor man's Eric Snow.

I think you may be mixing up Anthony Johnson with Anthony Carter.

Denver looks very strong right now, but I think this may be one of those "home cookin'" series, where everything looks different in Dallas and it goes 7.

I think you may be mixing up Anthony Johnson with Anthony Carter.

Yeah, good call. Got his name wrong. Analysis applies to Carter. Johnson is probably better though.

Denver looks very strong right now, but I think this may be one of those "home cookin'" series, where everything looks different in Dallas and it goes 7.

That's what I was thinking when Howard was healthy. If he can't be near 100%, I don't think Dallas can keep up with Denver's scoring, and I don't think they're athletic enough to defend in the open court.

This is why I think there was more to the Rondo toss of Hinrich than the replays showed. I think that ref on the back side saw something with Hinrich on Rondo during the box out. His arm had to get in there somehow.

Without a doubt his arm got in there. It happens all the time. Most players don't react by tossing the guy into the scorers table. That doesn't make Hinrich's play dirty, and Pat Riley's ######## surely doesn't mean anything.

Saying that Rondo's the only one @ fault in that showdown is disingenous at best. The call during the game was a Flagrant 1 on Hinrich & a technical on Rondo, right? Or was it the other way around?

Other way around. I'm not saying that (no one is saying that anywhere). After the tussle you and andrew describe, Rondo also threw an elbow (that missed). The flip AND the elbow attempt without a doubt are at least a flagrant 2, without a doubt he deserved an ejection and fine (I don't think he really deserved a suspension for that - since he didn't connect - and he didn't deserve a suspension for the game 5 foul). That, plus no penalty for the blow to Miller's mouth the previous game is why I called him dirty, and because the league let both of those calls stand is why I said the league underreacted. Hinrich earned the tech for challenging Rondo, and you could argue for perhaps a personal foul somewhere in there (it could have been on either guy, I think letting the play go is the right call as opposed to the official's tendency to call a double foul). Basically, throwing an elbow is deserving of something on its own, whether or not it connects (same is true of punches). The severity is determined based on contact. At a minimum, Rondo should have gotten a T in addition to the flagrant 1 (which again, wasn't a strong enough call based just on the flip/toss).

Nothing about the Lakers-Rockets game? Talk about chippy...

Random $0.02 thoughts on Rockets-Lakers, from a decidedly Laker perspective:

1. Kobe Bryant is good at basketball. 40 points on 16-27 shooting against a constant stream of multiple defenders is pretty excellent.

2. Fisher deserves a suspension. That shoulder he drilled Scola with would make an NFL linebacker proud.

3. Artest was right about Bryant throwing elbows in the post, and Bryant should have gotten a whistle for it. Running across the court to make a scene was pretty stupid, though. And Bryant has a point: Artest is about as physical a defender as there is in the league, and he's probably got at least 30 lbs. of muscle over Bryant. The only way that Bryant has any chance of boxing Artest out is by giving a little extra. Artest can't lose his head over stuff like this.

3. This is the third time in the playoffs Yao's laid an egg. His inability to stay on the floor let Gasol have his way. (BTW, that drive by Gasol on Yao, going right then spinning to his left for a dunk, gorgeous. How many 7-footers are that deft?) If he plays 36 minutes instead of 26, the would have been a lot closer.

4. Despite all that Laker noise, the Rockets were right there until the end.

I'll be honest - when Artest bee lined it across the hardwood, I was hoping for a football-style spear tackle. Ideally over the press table and into the first few rows of the stands.

I don't like Kobe very much. He is quite a player, though. That play where he passed it to himself off the backboard was incredible. Yao should have had it, but I get tired of repeat that particular line.

Yao's got to get stronger hands. He just has to.

From a decidedly Rocket perspective:

1) Gasol on Yao was a disaster for the Rockets: he's just a step too quick for him. Gasol jumps entry passes well, shifts up the post defense enough to pull the chair out from him a few times a game, and was doing a really good job fronting him as well. This was extremely reminiscent of Game 2 of the Portland series in this regard, and Adelman didn't make a change in-game in that one either, although Yao wasn't really on the floor enough for it to matter. They came back in Game 3 and ran a lot of complicated quick picks to get the ball to Yao before the defense could set. I think if I were Adelman I might also run some more high pick and rolls and let Yao stroke it from 18. He can hit that.

I'll put this question to BTF'ers because I'm worried I'm not completely objective here: Am I the only one who thinks Yao gets hosed on a lot of calls? Especially relative to other stars? It always seemed like officials had a problem officiating Shaq in his prime too.

2) The Rockets basically need about five out of these six things to go right to beat the Lakers in any given game:
-Yao/Brooks decisively outscoring their counterparts, which means Brooks has to be more aggressive even if he does get blocked a few times.
-Keeping their turnovers closer to 12 than 18.
-Hitting at least 40% on their three pointers.
-Have Game 2's Carl Landry show up.
-Not fold tent in the fourth quarter as they have been doing all season.
-Kobe hitting less than 40% on his contested jumpers.

They can keep it close without all these things going right, and they might even steal one or two with dumb luck/poor officiating, but they probably need to string together three games where they get most of these things down to win the series.

3) If Von Wafer's little sideline tirade that had Adelman send him off is something that keeps him from playing in the rest of this series, that's an enormous blow since he is one of the few Rockets that can create his own shot.

4) Is there any way the Rockets can appeal Derek Fisher's potential suspension?

"I knew I was going to get a technical foul. The point was to let the refs know this guy was elbowing me," he said. "I know I went over there with no punches, no shoves to the face, just a confrontation. I told him, 'You're hitting the wrong person. Don't you know you're hitting Ron Artest?' I'm not retaliating, I'm done with that."

Oh, Ron. You crazy bastard. Kobe agreed afterwards that Artest shouldn't have been ejected. I totally agree. That's Artest's reputation preceeding him. Derek Fisher, well, that was just dirty.

And speaking of dirty, WTF Rafer? What good comes of that? Sure, House is having a good game. But that's lame bush league crap and it doesn't get you anywhere. It's not even enough to start a fight, and even if you start a fight, the C's will trade House for you anyday. Congrats on causing the Magic to lose game 3.

It's not even enough to start a fight, and even if you start a fight, the C's will trade House for you anyday. Congrats on causing the Magic to lose game 3.

The love for Rafer Alston here is very strange. He is not good at basketball. The Celtics would most definitely not sacrifice House just to lose Alston.

The love for Rafer Alston here is very strange. He is not good at basketball. The Celtics would most definitely not sacrifice House just to lose Alston.

RIDICULOUS.

1. Rafer is a better basketball player than Eddie House. He's better offensively (because he can actually handle the ball and can create his own shot) and he's better defensively.
2. The drop-off from Rafer as starter and Johnson as backup to Johnson as starter and ??? as backup is MUCH, MUCH greater than House to Marbury (or it just means a few more minutes for Allen). Besides, House has only had 2 good games so far in these playoffs (last night and game 7). He's too streaky, and when he's not ON he's worthless. IOW, losing your starting PG is worse than losing your backup SG.
3. Refer to post 119.

I had Lakers in 6, and that still could happen, but I suspect it may go 7 now.

I also think the Celtics will win in 7.

I also think the Celtics will win in 7.

I think it's much more likely since the Magic are punting game 3. I thought they'd (Magic) have a great chance to go up 3-1 and win in 6. Now, I think the C's are in good shape to win in 7. I don't know if the Magic would win game 7 in Boston. But I can't believe how bad Orlando looked last night. Just saying a bomb, after almost choking game 1 away, that's bad.

EDIT: Just saying? I have no idea what I meant to say there. Maybe seeing, I'm not sure.

4) Is there any way the Rockets can appeal Derek Fisher's potential suspension?

I'm as a big a Derek Fisher fan as there is, but his fatal flaw has always been playing defense on quick point guards. The Aaron Brooks's of the world even if not great players, tend to make Fisher look really bad. We would miss Fish's leadership, but combine more minutes of Jordan Farmer guarding the 1 (while admittingly clanging jumpers) and the rallying that a Fish suspension would probably bring, and there is probably an upside to the Lakers in at least Game 3 for a suspension.

Also, yes Yao is ridiculously hard to ref. And as someone mentioned before, the NBA is a superstar league and until Yao proves it in the playoffs he's going to have trouble getting some of those calls that he might deserve.

House is underrated defensively - he's consistently put up good #s on that end throughout his career (even accounting for the easier matchups he's generally gotten) and is a more valuable offensive commodity than Alston in some contexts/systems. That said, I agree with the general premise of 366.

Also, yes Yao is ridiculously hard to ref.

Yep.

I'm not claiming House is better than Alston, though, again, Alston is not a good basketball player. His imaginary defensive prowess not withstanding, this is a guard that shoots 38% overall and 33% from downtown (mostly on open 3s, mind you). He can have that all day.

As for House- agreed, he typically has limited value. However, with this currently depleted Celtics roster, they need his minutes. They can't afford to lose the guy to suspension.

As for this:

IOW, losing your starting PG is worse than losing your backup SG.

I absolutely agree, which is why Orlando is not a great team without Nelson.

What do you not like about Alston's defense? Don't get me wrong - I think Houston moving from Alston to Lowry was an upgrade for their future prospects, but Alston has made vast improvements on that side of the ball the last few years.

But I can't believe how bad Orlando looked last night.

Courtney Lee and Jameer Nelson are not exactly Dumars and Thomas, but the Magic still miss both of them. Alston is not awful, but he and AJ are both backups, not starters. JJ Redick has a nice stroke, but he is a 10-15 min a game guy, a zone breaker, not a guy you want out there a lot. The Magic are not at full strength--no one talks about that because KG is out, but it is still true.

Also, it is my belief that on almost all basketball teams, from high school all the way up to the big guys, the coach and the star set the tone. This is why when the Lakers laid down against Boston last year in Game 6, I put it on Phil Jackson and Kobe Bryant instead of writing it off as "growing pains" as many Laker fans did. The Celtics were a better team than the Lakers last year, so I didn't mind the team losing to them, but I did mind their giving up 131 in an elimination game and losing it by 39.

With the Magic, I have little faith in Stan Van Gundy, and while you have to love Dwight Howard, his nice guy persona may be a little bit of an issue in a star player at playoff time. People said the same thing about the Admiral, of course, but then again Robinson didn't win it all until TD came along. All the greats have a little mean streak in them--nature of the game.

As to the Lakers, I can see why people would be pissed off about the elbows, but I think getting chippy against physical teams is something the Lakers need to do sometimes, particularly with a loon like Artest who is so excitable (and whom they apparently can't guard). IMO Fisher will be suspended; Kobe won't. I won't argue about whether he should be--if people think so, I can see that.

As to the game, Luke Walton, who I mentioned in a post yesterday, did help last night. He is a great passer, so he helps with getting the team good looks and with ball movement. Since the Rockets have some slow, physical guys on the wings, he can get by on defense, and he did a good job on Artest. PJ also did give some burn to Farmar and Brown on Brooks/Lowry, which mostly worked out well. And, as I and roughly 1M Laker fans said between Gms 1 and 2, they needed to get Gasol more involved, and they did.

OTOH, Bynum is out of sync and Phil clearly does not trust him anymore. It is partly the knee, and mostly IMO a mental thing. I have been saying it for months at FBG and will say it here also: the Lakers cannot win the title without some big help from Bynum. They may get by Houston and they may get by Denver, but they will not win the whole thing. Kobe was great last night, but they cannot count on his going 16/27 and scoring 40 as a way to win. He can do that...sometimes. But he can't do it as often as Jordan could, or as LeBron can.

Finally, tip of the hat to the Evil Green Empire. They got a career game from House, and the Magic laid down, but the Celtics deserve credit. And KG will, at some point, suit up.

A few items, responsive to multiple posts

RE: Officiating in Rockets/Lakers

I normally do not like Joey Crawford officiated games, but I thought the crew did well last night. I would not have ejected Artest, but I don't think that is an egregious mishandling of the situation. I agree that Yao is hard to officiate, but there were only a couple of calls that I did not agree with, and I didn't think either were that egregious.

The biggest and most important thing was the crew didn't Bavetta the game into a constant parade to the free throw line. Nobody got bailed out.

RE: Wafer

I have no idea what went down. Obviously, whatever happened, Wafer should not have got into a shouting match with his coach during the game. The amusing part was Daryl Morey's comments to Sages, "Just report the facts." WTF does this mean. Is this guy going to go all DePo on us after the Lewis puff piece?

RE: The Lakers tough guy routine

I think everybody this side of Phil Jackson knows the Fisher play was dirty. I wouldn't be surprised of coat-hanger Phil didn't cook that up to try to get his team look tough. Fisher is obviously expendable for him, b/c he can't D up the Rockets guards. Of course, there is the matter of who he selected. Scola is one of the three guys I wouldn't want to mess with on the Rockets (Artest and Hayes being the other two).

I don't think Kobe's elbow was a Laimbeer job. I just think Kobe was trying to be physical. Of course, he found out pretty quick what Artest thought of the elbow. The most interesting thing to me was how that incident showed how much Kobe and Artest have grown. Kobe was far too pansified to have ever even tried to body up a guy like Artest in previous years. Kudos to him for getting his gonads back from Vanessa. And Artest, major props to him. He went to the ref, he went to the player, and he got off the court. He gave a reasonably composed interview after the game. Optimally, he would not have run across the court to Kobe, but this is a major advancement. (Artest has always been one of my favorite players to watch play, so I do mark out on him a bit).

RE: Rockets and Lakers series

I still think the Lakers have too much talent for the Rockets, but last nights game by the Rockets impressed me more than Game 1.

I don't think you can get that type of performance out of Kobe for three more games. He did the same things he did in the first half of game 1 with the same level defense, but this time the shots fell. That doesn't surprise me, and I'm sure it will happen again in both directions. I don't know if you will get that type of efficiency for three more games though. What can't happen is for Kobe to get bailed out with free throws. If that happens the game is over because he'll just drive every possession and offensive efficiency will equal his free throw percentage.

Nevertheless, the Rockets never looked overmatched. They hung in for all but the last half of the fourth quarter (when 5 foul Yao, ejected Artest, and bannificated Wafer were either actually or effectively gone). Landry, Brooks and even Hayes created matchup problems for the Lakers.

People talk about the greatness of the Celtics-Heat series. This is the type of series I like.

RE: Skip to my Lou

He's definately going to get suspended, and the magic will have real depth problems at PG as a result.

His [Alston] imaginary defensive prowess not withstanding

Any comments on Kevin Pelton's defensive analysis of him (linked in post 119)?

As for House- agreed, he typically has limited value. However, with this currently depleted Celtics roster, they need his minutes. They can't afford to lose the guy to suspension.

That's fine, but like robin said, the Magic are even more depleted right now so Alston is HUGE loss, no matter what you think of his basketball skills.

With the Magic, I have little faith in Stan Van Gundy, and while you have to love Dwight Howard, his nice guy persona may be a little bit of an issue in a star player at playoff time. People said the same thing about the Admiral, of course, but then again Robinson didn't win it all until TD came along. All the greats have a little mean streak in them--nature of the game.

Mean streak? You mean like the elbow to Dalembert's head? I think what limits him is that his post game isn't fully developed and he can't hit FTs. That, and like Yao, he can't make his teammates give him the ball and bigs guys are always at the whim of the officials (although that hasn't been a huge problem for Dwight yet).

I still think the Lakers have too much talent for the Rockets, but last nights game by the Rockets impressed me more than Game 1.

Very good points on that series, and I agree. The Rockets are tougher and better prepared than the Lakers, which might be enough to close the talent gap.

Kudos to him for getting his gonads back from Vanessa.

Heh. I'm pretty sure she still has them on retainer though. Who knows when she might want them back.

People talk about the greatness of the Celtics-Heat series. This is the type of series I like.

I'm sure you meant Celtics-Bulls. And part of me does agree. That was a poorly coached and terrible defensive series.

We would miss Fish's leadership, but combine more minutes of Jordan Farmer guarding the 1 (while admittingly clanging jumpers) and the rallying that a Fish suspension would probably bring, and there is probably an upside to the Lakers in at least Game 3 for a suspension.

Having Farmar in the 4th quarter really put a damper on Brooks' uncontested penetration into the lane, and the eight Rocket turnovers in the 4th is a direct result of having more backcourt quickness on defense.

Mean streak? You mean like the elbow to Dalembert's head.

I don't mean that kind of "mean streak." Anyone can throw an elbow. I mean the obsessive compulsion--and that's the right phrase--to try to kick the other guy's ass on the court and make him know that you are better and an intense hatred of losing. I don't see that sometimes with Howard.

But, you are right about the other points. As I said about KG, it is harder for a post guy to "take over" due to needing the ball delivered by teammates, the ability of the other team to double-down, and sometimes the refs. This is why I think people sometimes expect to much from Yao and Howard, and earlier in his career, from KG, in terms of O in the 4th.

I agree about the Rockets-Lakers series; I'm loving it, much more than the Celts-Bulls series, which I saw as two very limited teams playing very equal, but limited, bball. I really would love to see the Rockets come out of this series, for Yao's sake, but as everyone's acknowledging, the NBA has so tilted the game away from big men the refs control too much of Yao's (or any big man's) game.

I don't mean that kind of "mean streak." Anyone can throw an elbow. I mean the obsessive compulsion--and that's the right phrase--to try to kick the other guy's ass on the court and make him know that you are better. I don't see that sometimes with Howard.

In that case, I'm going to disagree. He's *always* trying to dunk hard on guys (like that dunk on Perkins last night) and he *always* is trying to block shots into the upper deck (like the block on Allen in game 1; usually at the detriment of his team - he most assuredly can grab some of those or bat them towards his teammates). I think you're projecting too much of his personality onto his game. That, and when he's further away from the basket (IOW, not in dunking range), he tries to put too much touch on this shots which makes them seems softer. I guess he could try to demand the ball more, or he can jump around yelling like a ####### moron (ala KG). Perhaps that would intimidate people, since unlike KG, he really could kick anyone's ass if he really wanted to.

I don't think you can get that type of performance out of Kobe for three more games. He did the same things he did in the first half of game 1 with the same level defense, but this time the shots fell. That doesn't surprise me, and I'm sure it will happen again in both directions. I don't know if you will get that type of efficiency for three more games though. What can't happen is for Kobe to get bailed out with free throws.

The Rockets have been doing a great job sending two and three guys to keep Bryant out of the paint. That's a recipe for success against L.A.

What the Lakers need as a counter is for Lamar Odom to actually show up on offense. Improved defense and rebounding in Game 2, definitely, but 7 points on 2-7 shooting? Also, another bad shooting night from the arc, just 4-14 from the non-Kobes. The Laker attack is predicated on being an overwhelming offensive squad; they can't have offensive zeroes on the floor, but they're getting them from Odom, Bynum, and the bench. If they can't open the floor a little with their shooting, and if Odom can't find an answer against Scola/Landry, then L.A. is going to need a lot more Kobe just to earn a split in Houston.

His [Alston] imaginary defensive prowess not withstanding

Any comments on Kevin Pelton's defensive analysis of him (linked in post 119)?

I read Pelton fairly regularly, and like his writing; I think their numbers are interesting but not compelling. I'm not suggesting Alston is particularly bad on defense (like Eddie House is, as you rightly pointed out), I'm just saying his defense is a non-factor. He doesn't seem to know how to use his quickness, and with his offensive ineptitude, he would need to be one of the better defenders in the league to be a legitimate starting point guard. I will concede, though, that losing yet another PG hurts them.

That, and like Yao, he can't make his teammates give him the ball

You can't blame their teammates- if Adelman and SVG wanted their big men to get the ball more, they would get the ball. This continues to be the problem with both of those teams.

I think you're projecting too much of his personality onto his game.

Maybe, but I don't think the two can be separated that easily. I think we will know more in about ten days.

I guess he could try to demand the ball more,

With Nelson and Garnett out, he needs to do this.

I don't mean that kind of "mean streak." Anyone can throw an elbow. I mean the obsessive compulsion--and that's the right phrase--to try to kick the other guy's ass on the court and make him know that you are better. I don't see that sometimes with Howard.

In that case, I'm going to disagree. He's *always* trying to dunk hard on guys... and he *always* is trying to block shots into the upper deck..... I think you're projecting too much of his personality onto his game.

Howard reminds me of Shaq in this respect. Both these guys are bigger and stronger than everyone else on the floor. There are times when things get a little rough, of course, but nobody ever believes that either Howard or O'Neal are actually malicious characters. Some people demand the KG/Kobe "I'll-claw-your-eyes-out-and-eat-your-soul" approach, but that's clearly not necessary to be great.

Alston ... to be a legitimate starting point guard.

Where's the threshold? Top 30? Top 15 (so as to be a starter for an "average or better" team?) If he's my starter, I want an upgrade but you could do a lot worse.

Also, another bad shooting night from the arc, just 4-14 from the non-Kobes.

The Lakers don't have a true 3-point specialist, so this can happen. Vujacic and Fisher can both hit 3s; Walton and Ariza have gotten better, and Kobe can hit them sometimes. But there is no one who is an awesome guy on 3s. They make up for it to an extent by having several guys who can hit them.

What the Lakers need as a counter is for Lamar Odom to actually show up on offense. Improved defense and rebounding in Game 2, definitely, but 7 points on 2-7 shooting?

Yes, but Houston should be given some of the credit for this--they are good enough that they are going to take stuff away. I think Odom needs to try to post up a little more, but he is not really a back-to-the basket guy. This is another reason that Bynum matters. If they go high-low with Bynum and Gasol, Yao can only guard one of them unless Houston goes zone, which opens up other options. The one Yao is not on needs to be on the block against Scola or one of the backups.

Where's the threshold? Top 30? Top 15

Everything above Chris Duhon.

Quick News Update: In case you guys aren't monitoring other threads, Manny has apparently failed a PED test and is being suspended 50 games.

Back to hoops.

Howard reminds me of Shaq in this respect. Both these guys are bigger and stronger than everyone else on the floor. There are times when things get a little rough, of course, but nobody ever believes that either Howard or O'Neal are actually malicious characters. Some people demand the KG/Kobe "I'll-claw-your-eyes-out-and-eat-your-soul" approach, but that's clearly not necessary to be great.

Well said.

Everything above Chris Duhon.

That's a pretty low bar.

Howard reminds me of Shaq in this respect. Both these guys are bigger and stronger than everyone else on the floor. There are times when things get a little rough, of course, but nobody ever believes that either Howard or O'Neal are actually malicious characters. Some people demand the KG/Kobe "I'll-claw-your-eyes-out-and-eat-your-soul" approach, but that's clearly not necessary to be great.

No, and certainly not if you have Howard's body. But it helps. That was Jordan--he played like a guy who got cut in high school and was a great atnlete.

Yes, but Houston should be given some of the credit for this--they are good enough that they are going to take stuff away. I think Odom needs to try to post up a little more, but he is not really a back-to-the basket guy.

Houston should get tons of credit for this. Scola and Landry are doing a fantastic job keeping Odom from posting up. Myself, I think the Lakers need to bail on Odom as a post option, since he can take any PF in the league off the dribble. Having Odom play point and allowing Kobe to rub off screens forces defenses to constantly rotate to cover both Bryant and the ball. This opens space for Gasol short range and the shooters long range.

Right now Bryant and the ball are always together, so defenses can key Kobe without sacrificing defense in the paint. There's too much standing around by the Lakers, waiting for Bryant to make something out of nothing.

Some people demand the KG/Kobe "I'll-claw-your-eyes-out-and-eat-your-soul" approach, but that's clearly not necessary to be great.

I'm always humored by this approach, as I recall all of the elbows and even clawing that MJ did in his heyday. It's funny how perceptions of certain people can be altered by who you like.

Myself, I think the Lakers need to bail on Odom as a post option, since he can take any PF in the league off the dribble.

Good point, but Houston knows this as well, so Ron-Ron has been on him some.

I recall all of the elbows and even clawing that MJ did in his heyday

That girly slap fight MJ and Reggie Miller had was especially pathetic.

Yep. Jordan's greatness blinds people to Jordan's on-court nastiness. But Shaq has four rings. Duncan has four rings. Billups and Wade have rings. Lebron James is the best player in the game, and nobody has a bad thing to say about him. Carrying a career-long grudge works for some people, but it's not a requirement for greatness... no matter what the liberal media says!

Jordan's greatness blinds people to Jordan's on-court nastiness.

Don't forget the off-court nastiness, espeically with his teammates. How many guys did he supposedly punch in practice? I know the stories always were that Cartright WANTED MJ to hit him so he had an excuse to kick his ass. He knocked out Steve Kerr. He also rode down and took advantage of Pippen's "slowness". Basically, MJ is a total ######### #######. Maybe it helped him win, maybe it didn't.

I know the stories always were that Cartright WANTED MJ to hit him so he had an excuse to kick his ass. He knocked out Steve Kerr. He also rode down and took advantage of Pippen's "slowness". Basically, MJ is a total ######### #######. Maybe it helped him win, maybe it didn't.

Those Bulls teams were really interesting. So many personalities alongside so much talent. Credit to Phil Jackson for keeping the whole thing together for 6 rings (no comment on the Jordan baseball experience -- but I dont buy the secret suspension theory).

Whatever happened to Toni Kukoc?

Don't forget the off-court nastiness, espeically with his teammates. How many guys did he supposedly punch in practice? I know the stories always were that Cartright WANTED MJ to hit him so he had an excuse to kick his ass. He knocked out Steve Kerr. He also rode down and took advantage of Pippen's "slowness". Basically, MJ is a total ######### #######. Maybe it helped him win, maybe it didn't,

I know he punched Will Perdue.

Whatever happened to Toni Kukoc?

After he played in Milwaukee a couple of seasons, he wanted to come back and finish his career with the Bulls. This was right after the Pippen comeback tour, so the Bulls passed. He actually presented the game ball for the ceremonial jump (or whatever the #### they call it) before game 6 of the Bulls/Celtics series. I wish I could find a picture of him, because he looked awesome, like a total stereotypical middle aged eastern European. Total salt and pepper hair, still with the goatee, a sweet salmon shirt unbuttoned halfway.