The Hornets are bringing back Scott to coach next season. Interesting.

The Hornets are bringing back Scott to coach next season. Interesting.

I'm assuming they're just trying to avoid paying 2 coaches, right? Why on earth else would they do this?

Paul didn't sign an extension yet, did he? He must be counting the days until he can leave that place.

The Hornets are bringing back Scott to coach next season. Interesting.

Free Julian Wright!

Free Julian Wright!

As a KU fan, I really wish Julian got more minutes. He's got the problem of being a tweener size-wise, but he's got talent, and he could at least be a great sixth man on many teams in the league in my opinion.

More love for the Denver Nuggets:
Before the playoffs started, I thought they'd probably win the first round, might win the 2nd round, but be out no more than 5 games against the Lakers. I am thinking now they CAN beat the Lakers, which is not to say they will, but a positive sign.
The key will be the next two games in Dallas. For all the amazing things they've done in the playoffs, the two things they haven't experienced much of is overcome adversity and winning close games.
If you're in the East and not following anyone out west besides LA, here are the score differentials of the Nuggets' games so far:
+19, +15, -2, +58, +21, +14, +12.
I did not see the loss, but by all accounts the Nuggets manage to do as many things wrong as they could. I saw most of game 2, and it was by far their worst game that I saw them play, and they were up by about 20 w/ 2 minutes to go. In the first quarter alone, they missed 1 uncontested dunk and 3 uncontested layups, and I don't think Billups hit a outside shot until the 4th.
Here are some reasons that they can beat LA:
1-9, actually 2-9, they are more athletic than the Lakers. Kobe stands alone. But you think of guys on the Lakers like Lamar Odom and Gasol who are extremely athletic for their positions, but the Nuggets have guys like J.R. Smith, Dahntay Jones, Kenyan Martin, Nene, Chris Anderson who can easily guard players bigger and shorter them and love to run up and down the floor all game, and you realize that this is amazingly athletic team. Someone mentioned Nene eating up Erik Dampier in the post, and while that's somewhat true, Nene has probably 10 points in each game running the break! The Nuggets create a lot of matchup problems for any team.
Chauncey Billups is a true leader. If you're a stat guy, compare the Nuggets record this year before and after the AI/Billups deal. Since he arrived, they went from a .500 team to an elite level team. If you're a visual guy, watch him coming off the floor getting on someone for not playing defense, watch him taking over the huddle in the 4th quarter. The rest of the Nuggets understand he has a ring, they don't, and they're listening.
They can be a very good defensive team. I haven't yet seen them play a great defensive game start to finish in the playoffs, but they have 10 minute stretches, usually in the 2nd and 4th quarters of every game where they make it really difficult even to get a shot off. Combine that w/ releasing someone just as the ball is being turned over, and there a lot of easy fast breaks.
J.R. Smith can win one game in LA. He goes in and out of the zone even w/in games, and there will be a game he costs them, but he is capable of scoring 30+ in 20 minutes, and if he happens to do that in LA, the Nuggets will steal one.

What else they need:
A lot rests on Melo. He reminds me of Clark Kellogg at Ohio State. Kellogg was a 6'8" point guard in high school, and he was a few years younger than Magic. He wanted to be the next Magic, and he was horribly inconsistent his first year, but in his 2nd year he realized he was amazing rebounder, a great inside passer, and he became a really good player and future NBA-er, just not the next Magic. I think Anthony wants to be, not the next LeBron, but at least the same type of player. But, he doesn't have LeBron's separation ability, passing ability, or outside shot. He can't take over a game with the ball. During the playoffs, when he tries to do that, he really hurts them. If he plays post-up, runs the floor, looks to make quick passes off the double teams, he can be really impressive. He needs to keep trying to be a 20 point scorer w/ 8 rebounds and 5 assists (and no turnovers) than a 30-point guy with no assists and 5 turnovers.
More confidence. They seemingly have unlimited confidence, but I think that they need to win a few close ones and gain confidence in doing that.
More defense. They seem to lose interest in playing defense for stretches of each game. They are getting away with that against New Orleans and Dallas, they won't be able to against LA.
Oh, and a sprained ankle for Kobe wouldn't hurt either.

As a KU fan, I really wish Julian got more minutes. He's got the problem of being a tweener size-wise, but he's got talent, and he could at least be a great sixth man on many teams in the league in my opinion.

He's been that for the Hornets intermittently but Scott's unwillingness to let young players make any mistakes currently keeps Wright from fulfilling whatever NBA destiny he might have.

RIDICULOUS.

1. Rafer is a better basketball player than Eddie House. He's better offensively (because he can actually handle the ball and can create his own shot) and he's better defensively.
2. The drop-off from Rafer as starter and Johnson as backup to Johnson as starter and ??? as backup is MUCH, MUCH greater than House to Marbury (or it just means a few more minutes for Allen). Besides, House has only had 2 good games so far in these playoffs (last night and game 7). He's too streaky, and when he's not ON he's worthless. IOW, losing your starting PG is worse than losing your backup SG.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Rafer isn't a worthwhile defensive player. That ground has been covered fairly well.

Offensively though, he may be able to create all the shots he wants, but he is an abysmal shooter. I don't know if he'd be any better if he was given the Bruce Bowen corner three-pointer offensive role, but he was part of the problem as a Rocket and I'd estimate about 60-70% of his three-pointers were taken wide-open. Which isn't to say that he's not a big upgrade on Anthony Johnson, or that he's not a worthy starter. When the Rockets flipped Mike James for him, it was probably one of the worst moves of Morey's influenced tenure (IIRC Dawson was still in charge technically but Morey had a lot of say from here on out). Not because he wound up being a worse player overall, since James faded into mediocrity within a few years, but because James fit the Yao offense and Rafer never did.

I've always thought Rafer would do much better on a running team. Frankly, I'm puzzled that the Magic aren't running.

Scott coming back next year:
Do the Hornets even win 30 games? I've never seen a team quit so egregiously. If CP gets dinged up at all, I would imagine he sits. It's bizarre. I don't know what happened, but all of a sudden they all just hate Scott. Same thing seemed to happen in NJ, so I wonder what it is.

Rockets/Lakers:
The only reason the game was close last night was the small lineup that the Rockets ran out there with Chuck Hayes. Yao was -28 last night in +/-. Lakers got a lot of turnovers while Yao was on the court. That'll be the adjustment next game. Can the Rockets adjust to make Yao's moves quicker? That 20 footer he was shooting in g1 seems to be too far out, but he was drilling it. Maybe you post up Ron Ron and play backwards? Kills your chance at offensive boards.
As the pace goes in game 3, so goes the game. If the game is fast, with lots of running by the Lakers' second unit, they'll win. If Houston keeps it around 90, Houston probably wins.

Fisher Foul:
First of all, this is why people in LA love Fish. Play was a Flagrant 2, and Fish will probably be suspended, however, the play had no risk of injuring anyone. That's how you send a message. Not dirty, but hard. There's a huge difference between a play like that, where a smaller guy leveled a big and the play where Rondo went for the head. Fish lined up the hit, so he deserves a suspension, but he knew what he was doing. Him being suspended isn't a great loss for one game, and it forces Farmar to step up.
Apparently it was because Lakers players felt that Scola was setting a lot of dirty picks and wanted to send a message.

Apparently it was because Lakers players felt that Scola was setting a lot of dirty picks and wanted to send a message.

Not aiming this at you, tshipman, but talk about bush league. Losers feel the need to send messages. Just win. This is the playoffs; in today's NBA, a foul like that is getting you ejected and getting you a one game ban. Fisher is a smart veteran who obviously knows that. It's just a dumb move, nothing else.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Rafer isn't a worthwhile defensive player. That ground has been covered fairly well.

Look at the specific post I was responding to. He's softened his stance (he claimed the Celtics would miss House more than the Magic would miss Rafer and he also used the phrase "His imaginary defensive prowess"). You do make good points, and having someone who doesn't feed the post does hurt the Magic as well.

Frankly, I'm puzzled that the Magic aren't running.

It's in the Van Gundy blood to slow things down.

But, he doesn't have LeBron's separation ability, passing ability, or outside shot.

When you say outside shot, what are you referring to?

But, he (Carmelo) doesn't have LeBron's separation ability, passing ability, or outside shot.

When you say outside shot, what are you referring to?

Good question, NJ. At some point over the past couple of years, Carmelo became absolutely deadly on the mid-range and long-range twos. He's still not a great 3 point shooter, but he can really spread the floor with his shooting ability.

Not aiming this at you, tshipman, but talk about bush league. Losers feel the need to send messages. Just win. This is the playoffs; in today's NBA, a foul like that is getting you ejected and getting you a one game ban. Fisher is a smart veteran who obviously knows that. It's just a dumb move, nothing else.

Well, I think that Fish knows that he's not exactly staying in front of Brooks. So it was a calculated move where he doesn't really care if he gets suspended for a game.

Second: if a guy is doing something that isn't going to be called, the way to deal with it is not to cry to the refs, but to send a message. Every championship team has been able to send that message. That's not bush league, that's playoff basketball.

Apparently it was because Lakers players felt that Scola was setting a lot of dirty picks and wanted to send a message.

If you go back and watch the game, you can see that on the previous play Scola did something message worthy: Odom was going to the basket and Scola gave him a clean foul, but as Scola was going out of bounds, he reached back and grabbed Odom's jersey. IOW, after the play was dead Scola was trying to jerk Odom off his feet and out of bounds. Odom's jersey came loose and nothing happened, but that's why Odom and Scola started barking at each other, and eventually the entire Laker squad on the floor was pointing and jawing at Scola.

Not aiming this at you, tshipman, but talk about bush league. Losers feel the need to send messages.

Ron Artest felt the need to send Kobe a message last night. In all seriousness, getting physical is exactly how players in every sport police each other. This was the basketball version of a fastball in the ribs.

Second: if a guy is doing something that isn't going to be called, the way to deal with it is not to cry to the refs, but to send a message. Every championship team has been able to send that message. That's not bush league, that's playoff basketball.

Up to and through the 80s, sure (Side note- I saw a Rockets-Lakers playoff game from 86 on Classic a while back. Punches exchanged. I'm not even sure there were any ejections). The refs don't let you play like that anymore.

Also, I'm not buying the idea that an NBA player is going to change the way he plays because a guy threw an elbow, got tossed, and got suspended. Is Kobe going to change the way he boxes out Artest because Artest lost his cool and got tossed? It seems much more likely that the opposite is true, and Scola and Kobe will dig in even more in the next game. These guys aren't chumps.

Losers feel the need to send messages. Just win. This is the playoffs; in today's NBA, a foul like that is getting you ejected and getting you a one game ban. Fisher is a smart veteran who obviously knows that. It's just a dumb move, nothing else.

Like I said, against physical teams that try to get in their jocks and heads, like Houston and Boston, the Lakers need to get chippy sometimes, given their personnel and rep. Nature of the game. Fisher was 4/7 from the field in Gm 2, so they may miss that, but I think, like tshipman said, right or wrong, it was calculated. Fisher is a very smart, self-aware type of guy--that is not just media hype. I have heard him speak many times on a variety of issues.

And after all, you can't expect the Lakers to be classy, clean, and restrained like Rajon Rondo and Kevin Garnett.

Humorous note: supposedly some people thought Jack Nicholson should have been ejected for ref-baiting and cussing/gesturing. In the old days, Nicholson would often travel to road playoff games. Now that he is past 70, I doubt he does that, but it would be funny to see him in Houston. Maybe Joel Osteen will be courtside.

And after all, you can't expect the Lakers to be classy, clean, and restrained like Rajon Rondo and Kevin Garnett.

See I think this is actually my point. Throw elbows all you want to send a message, but the Lakers absolutely folded up shop last year in Boston in Game 6. When the Lakers are criticized for not being tough enough, it has nothing to do with their willingness to throw elbow-messages, it has to do with Odom and Gasol disappearing in the last half of the finals last year.

The message Fisher was sending wasn't just to Houston, though Scola deserved a pop for the Odom play. The message was to Odom and Gasol as well. Something like, do not lay down this time, I will not allow it.

Fisher's play was a cheap hit and he should be suspended. That said, he wasn't within 100 miles of the Rondo-Miller play. That was ####### WWF, I'm just glad he didn't throw a chair at the guy. Of course had he done that, Boston still probably ends up at the line shooting free throws.

When the Lakers are criticized for not being tough enough, it has nothing to do with their willingness to throw elbow-messages, it has to do with Odom and Gasol disappearing in the last half of the finals last year

.

Yeah, no shitt. I have talked about that game twice in this thread. I even said, earlier in this thread, that "Anyone can throw an elbow." Fisher's "message"--and Kobe's--was not just delivered to the Rockets. It was also to the Lakers. The Rockets, like the Celtics, are a physical, grabby, chippy (and talented) team. Artest and Garnett set the tones for these teams. Part of what Fisher was doing was telling everybody, "Fukc this shitt." Was it "smart basketball?" No, but there is a visceral element to the game--particularly at playoff time--as well.

But, really, it is a minor thing. The Lakers won because they controlled Brooks/Lowry better, they got Gasol involved and he hit his shots, they forced the pace and scored a few times in transition, they defended Yao better, and Kobe shot the lights out.

I owe Dagoberto a Coke.

And yes, Fisher should be suspended. Looking at the replays again, I do not think Bryant should.

And yes, Fisher should be suspended. Looking at the replays again, I do not think Bryant should.

I think Bryant's elbow guaranteed Fisher's suspension. If Walton or Odom or someone of lesser stature threw the elbow into Artest's throat, *maybe* there'd be a suspension. I think it's borderline. But a star like Bryant is not going to be suspended for that. But, since the refs screwed that play up, the league will definitely want to punish the Lakers, so any chance of mercy Fisher had is gone. Although it's debatable whether Fisher being suspended punishes the Lakers.

I just said it won't happen, but if Bryant DOES get suspended for Game 3, then Artest's beeline across the court becomes a very smart play. There's no way that play even gets looked at if Artest doesn't draw attention to it.

I think this is the second playoff game I can remember where Kobe threw an elbow and the opponent on the receiving end got a foul for it. Didn't he elbow Mike Bibby in the face at the end of a Kings-Lakers game a few years ago, with Bibby picking up the foul?

I just said it won't happen, but if Bryant DOES get suspended for Game 3,

500% guarantee this will not happen. Elbows get thrown in the post all the time. This one just happened to catch Artest. Foul, yes. Suspendable, no. Besides, it's Kobe Bryant, Mr. Bulletproof.

Didn't he elbow Mike Bibby in the face at the end of a Kings-Lakers game a few years ago, with Bibby picking up the foul?

Hey, Bibby was clearly guilty of reaching in... with his face. ;-)

Edit: And now, looking at ESPN.com, it seems that Bryant was given a flagrant 1, but that's it. No suspension.

And now, looking at ESPN.com, it seems that Bryant was given a flagrant 1, but that's it. No suspension.

That's a joke. Elbows get thrown around all the time, and they were jostling for position. To call that a flagrant 1 and not call Rondo's slap across the head a flagrant? Come on now.

Bryant's flagrant is because of the resulting Artest dramatics, nothing more. I think of it like an umpire's warning to both dugouts before the game: Ronnie got an ejection, Kobe gets the F-1, now don't make us start suspending stars.

Rondo must have pictures of somebody ####### some goat somewhere.

The Hawks aren't putting up much a fight. To their credit, this game has definitely been officiated in favor of Cleveland so it should probably only be a 15-20 point deficit instead of 30, heading to the 4th.

Atlanta is going to win a single game this series.

Kobe should test his limits. Impale Artest on a table leg, and see if he gets suspended.

Atlanta is NOTgoing to win a single game this series.

FIFY

If Joe Johnson's still gimpy from the ankle sprain, then Atlanta isn't going to get within 15 points in a single game this series. I stopped watching after the Williams no-look alley-oop to James. Spectacular, but there's only so much garbage time one can take.

If Joe Johnson's still gimpy from the ankle sprain, then Atlanta isn't going to get within 15 points in a single game this series. I stopped watching after the Williams no-look alley-oop to James. Spectacular, but there's only so much garbage time one can take.

Agreed, thanks for the edit, 428.

Can't Marvin Williams suit up just long enough to drop a couple of flagrants on James? At least make it entertaining.

Can't Marvin Williams suit up just long enough to drop a couple of flagrants on James? At least make it entertaining.

You seriously are all about that ########, huh? Wouldn't Marvin break his arm if he tried to hit LeBron?

Maybe, yeah, but at least I'd get some joy out of the deal.

That Bryant trey was huge.

WOW. They're calling a flagrant 2 on Artest. I can see perhaps a flagrant 1 — Artest obviously shoved Gasol with his left arm even as he went for the ball with his right — but a 2? I bet it gets downgraded overnight.

A flagrant foul-penalty (1) is unnecessary contact committed by a player against an opponent.

A flagrant foul-penalty (2) is unnecessary and excessive contact committed by a player against an opponent. It is an unsportsmanlike act and the offender is ejected immediately. The offender will be subject to a fine not exceeding $35,000 and/or suspension by the Commissioner.

I thought Commissioner Stern was being excessive when he suggested castration.

And that's it. Derek who? Farmar goes for 12 points, 7 assists, and just one turnover. Aaron Brooks nets just 7 points, only one assist, and 3 turnovers.

Hopefully, Yao will be ambulatory for Game 4.

RIP Chuck Daly.

Missed the game; was at the movies. Bryant/Gasol 15/39 and the Lakers win by 14 on the road. Good sign. This matchup is good for Farmar and Walton, and they showed it. I hope Yao is OK.

Odom, Bryant and Ariza 9/12 on 3s won't happen again, but it sort of balances out Game 1.

Missed the game; was at the movies. Bryant/Gasol 15/39 and the Lakers win by 14 on the road. Good sign. This matchup is good for Farmar and Walton, and they showed it.

I don't know if I agree with the Walton matchup. Most of the night, he was matched up against nobody. The Rockets were giving him that shot.

I agree on Farmar. As I mentioned earlier, he gives you a lot more than Jurassic Fisher.

Nevertheless, I think the story of last nights game was the Lakers defense. The did a very nice job, particularly in the third quarter. The only matchup that wasn't plus for them was Scola/Odom. Quite often, Scola was the Rockets best option.

I hope they downgrade the Artest foul. I don't think that was a flagrant 2. Otherwise, I thought it was another pretty good officiated game.

LeBron was something last night.

The Lakers, well, are not good enough to play half-assed as they sometimes do, and give Houston credit for showing up w/o Yao.

Big Baby gets a foul in the first minute of the game, and Doc pulls him - apparently this isn't an unusual move?

Magic couldn't take advantage of Rashad Lewis having a mismatch before he got his 3rd this half.

Oohhh! Another long thread for me to bookmark and read during my spare time.

I really enjoyed watching that Celtics - Bulls series, even though I watched the whole thing after the fact (they didn't show a single game from that series here in China). The NBA does have a lot of problems, but, man, that was still a great series to watch.

I'm rooting against the Rockets. I guess that's because I'm sick of China.

One more note: You NBA fans should really take a look at Sport-Scene if you get a chance. It's hard to get a registration spot, but you'll like it if you do. I've never seen such a remarkable archive of classic (and current) NBA anywhere else. Among other things, I was able to download a 1974 ABA playoffs game, the complete 1984, 1985, 1986 and 1987 NBA Finals, Game 6 of the 1963 NBA Finals, and more.

I love the NBA of the early 1980s.

I'm rooting against the Rockets. I guess that's because I'm sick of China.

Well now that Yao is gone, shouldn't you root for them since it would make him look bad?

Not that it really matters. This is Lebron's coronation year.

Is anybody watching the game?

I watched, back and forth with the Rays/Red Sox game.

Howard needs to work on his low-post moves, as Moses Taylor said. Nice game by Pierce.

A lot of folks missed a heck of a game.

60 Minutes was running their profile of Bill James opposite the last 3 minutes of the Celtics' game. Bad timing for them.

No matter what happens for the rest of Big Baby's career, I will never forget his ineptitude last season, and his shocking improvement in this year's playoffs. He would have to go OJ Simpson for me to have another primary association for him.

@450

Hollinger wrote a piece a few years ago about how much many guys improve--their rate stats, not just counting stats--as they get more minutes.

I missed the games yesterday, so I'm shocked to see that Rockets/Lakers score. I was glad to see the NBA downgrade Ron-Ron's foul from game 3, but was disappointed to hear the NBA admit they screwed up the ending of the Dallas/Denver game. Not because they didn't screw up (they did, in quite the shocking fashion), but because it pisses me off again about the stupid Rondo fouls and makes it look even more like favoritism. UGH.

I'm shocked Denver has played well enough in 3 games in a row against a good team to be up 3-0. I'm starting to believe in them having a shot to beat LA. Nothing I've seen from either Boston or Orlando makes me think either can seriously challenge Cleveland. I mean, the Cleve has won every game by double digits. That's just almost unfathomable, even adjusting for their competition.

I have to wonder for the general and casual fan if the screwed-up last-minute intentional foul call is going to be really focused on, as the practice of those continual intentional fouls is one of the things that keeps casual fans from taking basketball more seriously.

EDIT: I didn't mean for that to sound as dismissive/snarky as it does. I just think if the Carmelo non-call doesn't have legs, that's going to be a big part of the reason.

Aaron Brooks is awesome.

Hollinger wrote a piece a few years ago about how much many guys improve--their rate stats, not just counting stats--as they get more minutes.

Coincidentally, I looked for (and found) this Saturday night. It's in one of his abstracts - the subject is discussed in both the Atlanta and Washington essays. The work wasn't particularly rigourous (not faulting, just noting) and I doubt the magnitude of the effect he found but - yeah, it was substantial.

I've largely dropped out of my APBR-lurking (time, not interest), but would anyone here like to summarize recent developments there over the last few years? I came across some Eli W. stuff on diminishing returns in rebounding + impact of cumulative usage rate on offensive efficiency yesterday (I'm doing a quick n' dirty basketball project) that I thought was very good.

Nothing I've seen from either Boston or Orlando makes me think either can seriously challenge Cleveland.

We'll see how well the James Rules apply when playing a team with an actual backcourt.

On one hand I think it is patently ridiculous to question Kobe when the guy already has 3 rings...sorta like I think the criticism of Wilt is ridiculous when he had two rings and had the misfortune of losing to teams with 4-6 Hall of Famers.

Still, my perception is that other players of Kobe's stature have not lost as many games/series against thoroughly beatable performances.

Still, my perception is that other players of Kobe's stature have not lost as many games/series against thoroughly beatable
performances.

Considering Kobe wasn't the top dog on any of those championship teams, it's perfectly acceptable to question him. He should be, without a doubt, held accountable for the Lakers' poor showings after he helped exile Shaq. Speaking of Shaq, I've always found it interesting how many times his teams were swept in the playoffs. Look it up sometime, it's rather shocking.

On one hand I think it is patently ridiculous to question Kobe when the guy already has 3 rings


That was back when he was a practitioner of ShaqFu.

Hollinger wrote a piece a few years ago about how much many guys improve--their rate stats, not just counting stats--as they get more minutes.


This makes player evaluation really hard, particularly if you do it off the numbers. For instance, consider a person who has had the following first four years of their career:

MIN 458 PPG 4.1 RPG 2.8
MIN 808 PPG 4.5 RPG 3.3
MIN 310 PPG 2.6 RPG 2.8
MIN 859 PPG 3.9 RPG 3.3

You wouldn't think this guy was around for much more than being a good defender off the bench.

Of course, when his minutes tripled the next year to 2641, you stated to get seven years of this

PPG 12.9 RPG 9.8
PPG 19.0 RPG 10.5 All Star
PPG 20.8 RPG 10.3 All Star
PPG 20.1 RPG 10.0 All Star
PPG 24.3 RPG 8.8 All Star
PPG 20.1 RPG 9.3 All Star
PPG 19.4 RPG 9.6

after he helped exile Shaq

How did he do that Stephen A? And even if he did, aren't the Lakers in a much better position than they would be if they owed Shaq 20 million next year and didn't have the players they obtained in his absence?

How did he do that Stephen A?

Is this close enough? That is just what happened in public.

And even if he did, aren't the Lakers in a much better position than they would be if they owed Shaq 20 million next year and didn't have the players they obtained in his absence?

Depends on what you mean be better. First, I think LA might win another championship or two with the Big Scapegoat in the post.

Second, I am betting you would have gotten a better package than Caron Butler, Lamar Odom and Brian Grant in a Kobe trade (heck, you might could have got the same package AND Dwayne Wade).

Without Kobe's salary, I am betting you could have made just about any move that you make now (and probably have at least a good 2 guard around). Heck, without Kobedonna, you might could have had enough shots to keep Caron Butler around.

How did he do that Stephen A? And even if he did, aren't the Lakers in a much better position than they would be if they owed Shaq 20 million next year and didn't have the players they obtained in his absence?

Are you being intentionally dense here? And what does Shaq's contract next season have to do with Kobe or the Lakers? We already went through this Kobe crap earlier in the thread, and based on your post here you don't know my opinion on the matter (or Kobe's role in breaking up that team).

Is this close enough? That is just what happened in public.

You could also look at Phil's book on that team.

FWIW, my opinion on the biggest problem in the NBA:

The NBA is reviewing a postgame confrontation between Mark Cuban and the mother of Denver Nuggets forward Kenyon Martin during which the Dallas Mavericks owner referred to Martin as a "thug" or a "punk," according to a report in The Denver Post.

...

Cuban came onto the floor near the front of the Mavericks' bench after Anthony hit the shot, before Mavericks forward Dirk Nowitzki took the inbounds pass and missed a long shot at the buzzer.

As he left the court after the game, Cuban slightly shoved a TV cameraman, pushing his forearm to move him aside as the owner walked by.





Link

At least Cuban gives a crap about his team, but he really does make a scene far too often.

FWIW, my opinion on the biggest problem in the NBA:

...TV cameramen?

At least Cuban gives a crap about his team

I don't think you measure care by the degree you act like an ass. Do you think he cares more about his team than Gavin Maloof, Jerry Buss, Jerry Reinsdorf. In fact, if he gave a crap about his team, he wouldn't have sent Nellie packing.

Kobe didn't cause Shaq to leave. Shaq left because his contract was up and he wasn't going to get a max extension from the Lakers. That had nothing to do with Kobe and everything to do with Jerry Buss being smart enough not to give Shaq what he wanted because it would cripple the team long-term, just as Shaq's contract is doing with the Suns.

Now Kobe's "role" is that he was also a free agent in 2004. Due to a quirk in the CBA, the extension that Kobe could sign was substantially smaller than the extension Shaq could sign. As such, signing Kobe was a given and the Lakers made it clear they would re-sign him given the chance. Kobe made it clear that he wouldn't re-sign with the Lakers if they re-signed Shaq because doing so wold guarantee that the Lakers wouldn't ever be better than they were in 03 and 04- and neither of those teams were good enough to win.

Shaq felt personally slighted by the whole deal and lashed out publicly (he had also lashed out, much to his detriment, at the Lakers owner during pre-season in 03.) During the Summer of 04, people in LA were treated to the hilarious spectacle of Shaq's agent (or preferred parrot) appearing on AM radio at noon, and then ESPN reporting what ever he said as gospel at 3:30. The truth was the Lakers had to pick one or the other for business reasons and they picked the younger, cheaper guy. The fact that the guys in question couldn't stand each other made for great copy, but it had nothing to do with the decision.

Keeping Shaq might have allowed the team to steal another title (I doubt it but it's very hard to speculate) but it would have cost the team a great young player. In short, it would have been a bad move, as history has shown. And Jerry Buss doesn't make a lot of those.

Um, the 2004 Lakers were a titanic favorite over the Pistons and were mostly undone by Kobe's selfishness. If that team wasn't good enough to win, then none of the Kobe-led teams since have been, either.

If Malone stays healthy they might have won. And if they could have milked another season out of him they might have had a chance the following year, despite Shaq's rather pronounced drop-off. The point is that they didn't win and they weren't getting any better.

Shag's age was showing and yet he still wanted a nine-figure deal- which he ultimately received, just not from the Lakers.

I imagine this has been pointed out before, but after noticing the drop-off in wins for the Lakers after Shaq's departure, I decided to check the win-loss records of all of Shaq's teams. Until the absymal 07-08 Heat, for whom Shaq played 40 games, not one of his teams had a losing record. His rookie year, the Magic were 41-41. Other than that, most of the teams had 50 and even 55+ wins.

Of course, this mostly just means that dominant big men, which don't come around very often, are the best players you can possibly have in the NBA. Groundbreaking, I know.

What it means for my opinion of Kobe, though, is that while he's a great, great player -- probably one of the best shooting guards ever -- he has always been overrated by many NBA fans because 1) he can do incredible, beautiful things with the ball, and 2) he spent his first several seasons with Shaq, picking up three titles in the process. Not that he was incidental to those titles; he was, I'm guessing, the second-best player on those teams. But he could have ended up on any number of other squads and be title-less to this day. I don't think you could say the same about Shaq, who was dominant enough in his prime to make almost any team he joined a contender (and of course went to Miami and won a title while LA became a losing team in his immediate absence).

if they re-signed Shaq because doing so wold guarantee that the Lakers wouldn't ever be better than they were in 03 and 04- and neither of those teams were good enough to win.

So Dwayne Wade + Shaq O'Neal + White Chocolate + Toine Walker + Udonis Haslem > Shaq O'Neal + Kobe Bryant + Karl Malone + Devean George + Gary Payton

Does balancing that equation give us

Wade > Bryant

or do we think White Chocolate >> Devean George

And Jerry Buss doesn't make a lot of those.


Except that one of his possible moves would have been to trade Bryant. I'm not sure that he could not have gotten anything he wanted for Bryant, except maybe the Cavs first round pick that year. Unless he chose to go out and get Darko, its likely that most any talent evaulator would have gotten him back a package that makes the Lakers as competative.

The showtime Lakers didn't let Kareem walk, because they had a young Magic Johnson and thought the team that lost to the Celtics was as good as they would get.

The point is that they didn't win and they weren't getting any better.

But they proceeded to get a lot worse - and only returned to their '04 level last year, and only after the remarkable good fortune of having Pau Gasol fall into their lap. If the Gasol trade doesn't happen (and I don't think you can chalk that up to a "plan" by the Lakers), they would essentially have wasted Bryant's prime.

Um, the 2004 Lakers were a titanic favorite over the Pistons and were mostly undone by Kobe's selfishness.

This is a popular misconception. The Lakers were favored in the popular media, but that was an illusion. After acquiring Rasheed Wallace at the deadline that year, the 2004 Pistons were as dominant as a team can be without a Magic/Bird or Jordan/Lebron type star--a nightmare on defense with a very efficient offense. The series was a rout; it has been called the "five-game sweep."

The Lakers lost Karl Malone to injury in that series, and were giving heavy minutes to guys like Slava Medvedenko, Devean George, Kareem Rush, and Brian Cook. Gary Payton still had a little gas in the tank, but his skill set did not fit the triangle, and Jackson never did adjust to that. If the Lakers had transplanted Magic Johnson's brain into Kobe Bryant's body, they would have lost that series. Maybe in 6, but they would have lost.

Wait -- so good players teamed up with other good players and a good supporting cast win championships, and good players with no support don't win championships? Say it ain't so!

I totally agree with PJ. Big men are more valuable than shooting guards and Shaq was an absolute monster.

Kobe's lack of size and strength will always limit his value. He's still amazing to watch though, IMO.

(My last post was in response to [471], for what it's worth.)

But they proceeded to get a lot worse - and only returned to their '04 level last year, and only after the remarkable good fortune of having Pau Gasol fall into their lap. If the Gasol trade doesn't happen (and I don't think you can chalk that up to a "plan" by the Lakers), they would essentially have wasted Bryant's prime.

No question. A rebuild is always tough and since that one started with a pretty lousy Shaq trade it was doubly so. Getting worse however, was a given. They were losing on of the two men either way. The question was do they try with Shaq for the next couple years and then who knows, or do they build around a top young shooting guard. It was a tough choice and one with downside either way. I still think they made the right move- of course the Gasol thing makes it a lot easier to think that way.

were giving heavy minutes to guys like Slava Medvedenko, Devean George, Kareem Rush, and Brian Cook

Any minutes to Slava Medvedenko is too many minutes, but Brian Cook--he played 21 minutes in the finals. Malone still played almost as much as Medvedenko and Rush put together. As for Devean George, he was Phil's BJ Armstrong, Shannon Brown. He was going to get minutes even if Karl doesn't go hunting for little Mexican girls.

Didn't Kobe say he would never re-sign with the Lakers if they kept Shaq around? That basically was the foot that pushed Shaq out the door and forced the trade.

Also, I think Shaq later signed an extension with the Heat, right? So even if the Lakers hadn't traded him, they wouldn't necessarily still be stuck with his huge salary today (not sure if that extension bought out part of his Lakers contract).

Kobe's lack of size and strength will always limit his value. He's still amazing to watch though, IMO.

I've watched more NBA this season that in a few years, but I remembered Kobe as being more of a slasher than he is now. He's got a lightning-quick release off the dribble and can get a good look almost any time he wants.

Wade > Bryant

I think Wade, in his prime, when healthy, is better than Kobe when healthy and in his prime.

Of course, Kobe has done a much better job staying healthy and at this point his prime includes many more years of NBA basketball than Wade's does.

I've watched more NBA this season that in a few years, but I remembered Kobe as being more of a slasher than he is now.

Someone somewhere recently showed how much Kobe's rate of free throw attempts per field goal attempt (or something) had declined significantly over the last few years -- which is not unusual for an older wing player, and suggests that he is not the offensive force he once was.

After acquiring Rasheed Wallace at the deadline that year, the 2004 Pistons were as dominant as a team can be without a Magic/Bird or Jordan/Lebron type star--a nightmare on defense with a very efficient offense.

While I agree the Pistons team was jacked, they were essentially the same team the following year and Dunkin' Duncan, Ooo la la Parker, and Cheap Shot Rob beat them in the finals. IOW, they were great, but they were beatable. KobeBean shot 38% in that series. The Big Diesel shot 63%. Kobe took more shots than all his non-Shaq teammates put together. He took close to 30% more shots than Shaq.

The Lakers may have been doomed to fail, but there were much better chances of winning regardless of whether they were running a triangle or tetrahedron offense.

Shaq's deal was for two more years at 20 million per. What no one remembers at this juncture was how Shaq had the habit of starting each season horribly out of shape, and playing his way into it over the course of the season. As he got older, this grew to be a riskier and riskier strategy, and caused a large amount of the friction between Kobe and Shaq.

I was for the Shaq trade at the time and still for it now. I wanted Wade back, but supposedly Wade was asked for and deemed untouchable by Miami. Shaq was motivated by the trade and drastically improved his health and conditioning. If LA would have decided to keep Shaq, I remain convinced that he would have started every season at 350 to 400 pounds.

Oh, here it is:

Postgame note after the fact: Kobe has attempted a total of 44 FTs in six playoff games (7.2 per game). Last spring, he attempted 194 FTs in 22 playoff games (8.8 per game). For the regular season, his FT attempts dropped from 10.2 (2005-06) to 10.0 ('06-07) to 9.0 ('07-08) to 6.9 ('08-09). So, no, Kobe doesn't go to the hole as much. Let the record show MJ averaged 10.6 FTA in the '98 playoffs and Wade averaged 10.9 FTA in the '06 playoffs.

This is a popular misconception. The Lakers were favored in the popular media, but that was an illusion. After acquiring Rasheed Wallace at the deadline that year, the 2004 Pistons were as dominant as a team can be without a Magic/Bird or Jordan/Lebron type star--a nightmare on defense with a very efficient offense. The series was a rout; it has been called the "five-game sweep."

So we agree that Kobe is not a Magic/Bird/Jordan/LeBron type star?

I actually predicted that Detroit would win that year right after they acquired Rasheed. However, to suggest they were really dominant or that they shouldn't have been underdogs is clearly revisionist history.

It was Kobe's first turn at being The Man and he failed miserably, as Backlasher notes.

Furthermore, a beaten down Shaq with just as suspect a supporting cast (aside from Wade) won an NBA title two years later.

Furthermore, a beaten down Shaq with just as suspect a supporting cast (aside from Wade) won an NBA title two years later.

I dunno, I'd say Bennett Salvatore was pretty good in the Finals for the Heat.

I think Wade, in his prime, when healthy, is better than Kobe when healthy and in his prime.

Disagree. Wade isn't nearly as good a shooter, and he's not as good defensively.

The Lakers lost Karl Malone to injury in that series, and were giving heavy minutes to guys like Slava Medvedenko, Devean George, Kareem Rush, and Brian Cook

And this was the real weakness of the Lakers. Their bench was terrible. They were Kobe + Shaq and nothing else. If you have three marquee players you can win with nothing else, but with two, you've got to have some guys that can play. The Lakers were giving minutes to Devean George, Rush, and Cook. That tells you how bad their bench was.

Except that one of his possible moves would have been to trade Bryant. I'm not sure that he could not have gotten anything he wanted for Bryant, except maybe the Cavs first round pick that year.

He wouldn't have gotten close to fair value. While he didn't get fair value for Shaq, at least he only gave away two productive years. Kobe still had 7-9 years left. Lebron and Wade were the only two players that were equal value, and he wasn't getting them.

So we agree that Kobe is not a Magic/Bird/Jordan/LeBron type star?

The only players who ARE Magic/Bird/Jordan/LeBron type stars are, well, Magic, Jordan, Bird, and Lebron. Toss in Russell and Wilt if you must.

Bryant isn't Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle. He's merely Joe DiMaggio.

Disagree. Wade isn't nearly as good a shooter, and he's not as good defensively.

I think Wade is far better defensively actually and easily a better overall player when healthy.

I think Wade is far better defensively actually and easily a better overall player when healthy.

Wade gambles too much. Kobe's a lockdown on ball defender, while Wade is better in the passing lanes, but gives up some easy baskets because he's always gunning for the steal.

Agree w/Jimmy P. I've seen nothing that makes me think Wade is in Kobe's class defensively or offensively.

Agree w/Jimmy P. I've seen nothing that makes me think Wade is in Kobe's class defensively or offensively.

As a Laker fan, I'd disagree. Platonically, Kobe is a superior offensive player, in that he has a better jump shot, finishes equally as well and is a superior passer. However, Wade makes better decisions and understands his limitations. Wade drives to the hoop more than Kobe does now.

As far as the defense issue goes, it's very hard to evaluate, as they operate in different schemes and systems. LBJ is a better defender than either of them, while being inferior in 1 on 1 defense because he helps from the weak side so well. I'd say they're close enough for it to be within the margin of error.

Wade was more valuable this year, however, I would still take Kobe going forward, as Wade's style is very injury-prone, and will continue to be more so. Wade is a high-variance player, as years where he gets hurt will destroy his value. Years where he stays healthy, he has more value than Kobe. However, health is a skill, too.

Melo's midrange game is what seperates him. He has excellent body control and is pretty deadly from the triple threat position inside 20 feet.

He is never going to be LeBron, and thats OK. He can merely be a great offensive player for a long time. Though he has been on two olympic teams, he is only 2 years, or less, older than the most of the college senoirs entering the draft this year.

Wade drives to the hoop more than Kobe does now.

Right, but the statement was that Wade in his prime is better than Kobe in his. I don't think that's true at all. Kobe in his prime was pretty damn good. Even now, when Wade is in his prime and Kobe is past his, they're just about even. That shows how much higher Kobe's prime was.

As far as the defense issue goes, it's very hard to evaluate, as they operate in different schemes and systems.

Anecdotally, when the 2008 Olympic team put their crunch time team on the court, Kobe always drew the other team's #1 option.

Melo is a nice player and one who is a terrible match-up for the Lakers (assuming they get that far.) Melo is too strong for Ariza and too everything for Walton. It would not surprise me at all to see him do to the Lakers what Pierce was able to do last year- excepting the wheelchair of course.

I didn't realize Kobe is past his prime.

Roland Rating (www.82games.com) has it thusly:

LeBron 23.5
Wade 17.9
Paul 17.7
Kobe 12.6
Roy 12.5
Howard 12.3

So we agree that Kobe is not a Magic/Bird/Jordan/LeBron type star?

You must not have read any of my previous basketball posts. I am a lifelong, (well since age 6 when we moved to CA) hardcore Laker fan--but I know Kobe's limitations. He's about the 6th or 7th best player in the league right now. One trait of Kobe-haters is overstating both his imaginary ceiling and his real faults. As I said--in this thread--I don't love him, but I'll take him.

I actually predicted that Detroit would win that year right after they acquired Rasheed. However, to suggest they were really dominant or that they shouldn't have been underdogs is clearly revisionist history.

I don't think so. The Pistons' numbers after the Rasheed deal were phenomenal; they slipped a little quickly; it was not a young team. But they were still good every year until this year--and would still be pretty good had they kept Billups. But at that moment, they were awesome. Hollinger detailed how good they were in June 2004 before the series. Without Malone, the Lakers had no chance. With him, maybe they lose in 6. The Spurs team the Pistons barely lost to was better and deeper than the 2004 Lakers. BL did not mention Manu Ginobili in his thumbnail sketch of that team.

Furthermore, a beaten down Shaq with just as suspect a supporting cast (aside from Wade) won an NBA title two years later.

Wade was the star of that team, not Shaq. Shaq liked Wade, so he was willing to let him be the man. Wade also, unlike Kobe, was smart enough to be publicly deferential to Shaq. They had some vets who wanted rings--Payton, Mourning, Walker--on the pine, got some help from the refs and beat a good, but soft, Dallas team.

The Big Diesel shot 63%. Kobe took more shots than all his non-Shaq teammates put together. He took close to 30% more shots than Shaq.

Everyone wanted them to get the ball to Shaq more. Part of that was the Pistons' defense. Part of it was Malone's being gone. Part of it was that Kobe is not really much of a passer in terms of ability, not just approach. Part of was Kobe's being a hard-on and forcing shots.

As to the whole trade thing, it is interesting, but I am more concerned about Game 5 of the Houston series than with what happened five years ago.

Two other points: speaking of Shaq and Cuban, supposedly Shaq wants to orchstrate a trade to Dallas. WRT Bryant v. Wade, I think they are about even.

Wade was more valuable this year, however, I would still take Kobe going forward, as Wade's style is very injury-prone, and will continue to be more so.

I agree with most of your post, except for this sentence. I think Kobe is reaching the end. As we talked about earlier in the thread, his mileage/minutes played is getting up there and I'm not sure how much longer we can realistically expect him to play at this level. As demonstrated by the FTA post, his game has already begun to change. You have a valid point when it comes to injuries, but I think Kobe's body is due to start breaking down. Beacuse of that, I prefer Wade going forward.

Melo's midrange game is what seperates him. He has excellent body control and is pretty deadly from the triple threat position inside 20 feet.

Seperates him from whom? He's definitely a really good player, but I'm not quite sure he's at Dirk's level yet, and that's still below the Wade/Kobe level (which is below the LeBron level). I wonder if he'll ever get a chance at an MVP, because LeBron should have a stranglehold on that for a while, with Wade/Howard/Paul his main competition (I say should because votes tend to get bored and give the award to guys like Malone and Barkley when someone like Jordan still deserved it).