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Friday, December 02, 2011

NBA THREAD DECEMBER: POST-LOCKOUT

With the lockout over, I estimate that there may be more than 10-12 Primates who want to talk about the NBA, and with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: fractional reserve banking, and Tim Tebow.

rr Posted: December 02, 2011 at 12:26 AM | 3254 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: general

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   1101. Sam M. Posted: December 14, 2011 at 07:43 PM (#4016399)
But whatever collusion there is doesn't prevent CP3 from getting a Bird rights max contract; it prevents him from getting a Bird rights max contract from the team he's traded to.


That is true enough, but I think it underestimates the extent to which it reflects -- or perhaps reinforces -- the very point of the (alleged) collusion. The whole argument Paul would be making is that the league is acting improperly, and to his detriment, to keep him in New Orleans and thus coerce him into staying there instead of leaving as a potential FA on any other team could so. If the league comes back and tells the court he hasn't been harmed b/c he can just sign a max contract in New Orleans, he'd respond by saying that this just gives them the benefit of their collusion -- it achieves the goal the league was seeking all along.

That's why I brought up the Howard hypothetical. If the league colluded with all of Orlando's potential trading partners to get them to stand down and not trade with Orlando to give Howard a way out, and he challenged this as a violation of the CBA's anti-collusion principle, the league couldn't come back and say, "But he hasn't been harmed! He can just sign a max contract in Orlando." I say that because -- while it is true that the CBA envisions the gap between what a FA can get resigning with his current club (more) and a new club (less) -- it also balances that by giving the current club a strong incentive to deal (and making it explicit that this trading market must be free of league interference) the player rather than take a chance of losing him. So it's not enough to say that the player isn't hurt because of the max contract being available; he's hurt if the trade market that gives him options isn't available, and which can allow him to get not just the max contract, but to exploit the team's incentives to get it in a place he might wish to play.

Equity. Equity says that if there has been a violation, you attempt to put the injured party back in the place he would have been absent the violation. If the arbitrator or court thinks that there has been a violation, and that Chris Paul would have been traded to the Lakers or Clippers absent that violation, and thus been in a position not only to get the max contract, but to get it somewhere other than New Orleans, he wins.

All that said, again ... emphasize that showing collusion here would be a dicey proposition. But IF he can, I have very little doubt he can get himself out of New Orleans and have one of the trades implemented (or at least have Demps put back in charge, which is basically the same thing) as the remedy.
   1102. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 14, 2011 at 08:47 PM (#4016457)
WojYahooNBA: Orlando has ended trade talks for Dwight Howard, league sources tell Y! Sports.


---

KCJHoop: Rip has cleared waivers. Sounds like he'll be at #Bulls practice on Thursday after 2/$10M deal is finalized.
   1103. steagles Posted: December 14, 2011 at 09:39 PM (#4016505)
Chad Ford: Nets offered everything they could for Howard: Brook Lopez + FIVE 1st Rd picks. Theirs in 2012, 2014, 2016, 2018 + Rockets 2012 pick. about 18 minutes ago

Emiliano Carchia: Los Angeles Lakers Derrick Caracter out 4-6 weeks after surgery http://www.sportando.net/eng/us… about 10 minutes ago

Emiliano Carchia: Nuggets didn't match Raptors offer for Gary Forbes who is officially a new player of Toronto about 15 minutes ago

Marc Berman: D'Antoni trying to recruit Crawford to Knicks http://www.nypost.com/p/blog… via @newyorkpost about 22 minutes ago


   1104. JC in DC Posted: December 14, 2011 at 09:41 PM (#4016509)
Nets offered everything they could for Howard: Brook Lopez + FIVE 1st Rd picks. Theirs in 2012, 2014, 2016, 2018 + Rockets 2012 pick. about 18 minutes ago


No offense, but that's a bunch of ####. Lopez and five late 1st round picks? No way I do that deal if I'm Orlando.
   1105. rr Posted: December 14, 2011 at 09:48 PM (#4016517)
As I mentioned earlier, Orlando has the ASG this year and is opening a new building. Makes sense that they want Howard there the first part of the year.

But the team around him still isn't good enough, so obviously this issue is not going to go away. NO started off like 9-1 last year and Paul was "happy." We all know where that situation is now.
   1106. rr Posted: December 14, 2011 at 10:14 PM (#4016551)
Twas the Dwight before Chris-Mas
And all through the league, many players were watching--probably even Jeff Teague!
The cap space was cleared on the spreasheet with care
In hopes that a franchise player soon would be there

The fanboys were glued to their laptops and phones
While rumors of SuperTeams spread on their own
And me in my sweatpants and my GF in her dress
Our hearts all aflame hoping to hear Stern say YES!

Then all on the net I saw so much chatter
That I jumped on my keyboard to see what was the matter
Away to the websites I clicked like a flash
I searched NBA pages and hoped not to crash

(Gotta grade some more finals--can't finish yet. Anyone wants to make changes, complain to the site admins, or pick it up from there, be my guest--I am just being a faciliator here).
   1107. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: December 14, 2011 at 10:16 PM (#4016556)
No offense, but that's a bunch of ####. Lopez and five late 1st round picks? No way I do that deal if I'm Orlando.


I don't think it's a gimme that they will be late first rounders. I don't really see any reason to believe that Houston will be particularly good this year and... I mean, things happen. Players decline and get injured. It's not 100% that Williams is going to re-sign. If something happens and the Nets become a lottery team, you've hit the motherlode there. Five 1st rounders and a legit if flawed center is certainly a great return if you don't think you're keeping Howard past this year.

I admit to being biased, I would love to see Deron (one of my favorite players) and D12 play together, would be a very fun and interesting foundation for a team.

Crawford and NYK would seem to be a natural fit.
   1108. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 14, 2011 at 10:58 PM (#4016601)
@MagicInsider: Magic trying to smoke out L.A. with Nets trade tease. Lakers didn't bite. Magic want PGasol and ABynum for DHoward


In an alternate timeline where the Lakers haven't already given away Odom for nothing, shouldn't the Lakers make a Gasol/Bynum trade for Howard (leaving Odom at PF and taking back Turk's bad contract)? Obviously they were trying to get Paul with one of them, but...

I admit to being biased, I would love to see Deron (one of my favorite players) and D12 play together, would be a very fun and interesting foundation for a team.

I agree. I've said it before, but I want him to play with a top PG, be it Paul (not in LA), DWill or Rose.

Crawford and NYK would seem to be a natural fit.

Yes, and it'd be great for them to get him so cheaply.
   1109. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 14, 2011 at 11:30 PM (#4016624)
I don't agree with Simmons trying to get into Howard's head and judging his character based on his list of teams he'd be ok being traded to, but as a Bulls fan, I do wonder why he isn't considering Chicago more just like Bill did.

And if I were GarPax Reinsdorf, I'd still seriously considering trying to trade for him without the guarantee he'll resign. I think it would make the Bulls a better bet to beat Miami (even if by losing Deng, they're losing their best LeBron defender) this year. And I think once he's here, he's more likely to resign because 1. he'll get more money and 2. playing here and winning would be a damn good reason for him to want to stay. And if he shuns the extra $26mil and goes somewhere else, the Bulls aren't starting from scratch and could still be a contender in short order.
   1110. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 14, 2011 at 11:48 PM (#4016633)
In an alternate timeline where the Lakers haven't already given away Odom for nothing, shouldn't the Lakers make a Gasol/Bynum trade for Howard (leaving Odom at PF and taking back Turk's bad contract)? Obviously they were trying to get Paul with one of them, but...
Or an Odom/Bynum trade with other pieces, yes. That the team had to trade Odom is understandable (and I completely understand why Odom would want to force that trade), but why immediately? to Dallas? for basically nothing? After the veto, the Lakers should have turned around and offered an Odom-Bynum package to Orlando for Howard.

It's really hard for me to read Lakers news right now. I feel like we got screwed with our pants on.
   1111. JC in DC Posted: December 15, 2011 at 12:21 AM (#4016655)
I don't think LA got screwed to the extent NO is. Aside from that, as you point out, they've kinda screwed themselves as well. The Odom trade seems rash. I understand the desire to get rid of him as he wouldn't have been practicing, but they could've let some of the craziness settle a bit and have seen what moves were left (including as you point out a move for Howard).
   1112. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 12:33 AM (#4016663)
And if I were the Lakers and could only have one of Howard and Paul, I'd prefer Howard.
   1113. madvillain Posted: December 15, 2011 at 12:35 AM (#4016665)
I don't agree with Simmons trying to get into Howard's head and judging his character based on his list of teams he'd be ok being traded to, but as a Bulls fan, I do wonder why he isn't considering Chicago more just like Bill did.


It's not about winning as priority #1 for Dwight, it's about the glamor of NYC or LA or taking over the mantle from Dirk in Dallas, or whatever. If winning was priority #1, he'd demand a trade to chicago ASAP. It's really the perfect fit.

And Chicago would be foolish to throw in Deng as well. The deal would be some combo of Noah, Gibson, Asik, the Charlotte pick and filler.
   1114. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 12:35 AM (#4016666)
Rip to Bulls official, he'll be at practice tomorrow.

KCJHoop: Sources say Rip's deal is guaranteed 2 years/$10 million. Third year is team option with partial guarantees on $5,150,00


Bulls also have option/partial guarantees on the last year of the 3 year deals they gave Brewer, Korver and Watson last year. I think that's a smart move, for a number of reasons.
   1115. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 12:36 AM (#4016668)
KBergCBS: As @FisolaNYDN reports, it's down to Portland and Sacto for Jamal Crawford. Knicks will redouble efforts to re-sign Shawne Williams.


Good. The Knicks don't deserve players signing to play there cheaply. :)
   1116. madvillain Posted: December 15, 2011 at 12:41 AM (#4016669)
Bulls also have option/partial guarantees on the last year of the 3 year deals they gave Brewer, Korver and Watson last year. I think that's a smart move, for a number of reasons.


I really like what the Bulls FO is doing with all these team options. It is setting them up to be creative and flexible should any trades arise. Your average Internet fan boy thinks it's being cheap. It's being smart.
   1117. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 12:50 AM (#4016673)
And Chicago would be foolish to throw in Deng as well. The deal would be some combo of Noah, Gibson, Asik, the Charlotte pick and filler.

The thought of that tax bill just gave Jerry an aneurysm.
   1118. andrewberg Posted: December 15, 2011 at 12:50 AM (#4016674)
If Howard and Paul really want to win, they'll opt out next summer and take pay cuts to sign in Miami. Think about it, what team is near a title level but needs a distributing PG and rugged, defensive C more than anyone? Duh.
   1119. madvillain Posted: December 15, 2011 at 12:56 AM (#4016683)
The thought of that tax bill just gave Jerry an aneurysm.


The Chairman is getting old, perhaps he'd like one more 3 peat before he kicks it.
   1120. smileyy Posted: December 15, 2011 at 12:56 AM (#4016684)
[1118] And they'll be unstoppable when they get the multiball power-up. Blernsketball?
   1121. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 12:58 AM (#4016687)
The Chairman is getting old, perhaps he'd like one more 3 peat before he kicks it.

I don't think the Sox are winning the WS again in his lifetime, much less 3 more.
   1122. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:03 AM (#4016691)
sportsguy33: Heavy buzz that CP3/Clippers might be going down. Clips staff was just summoned to the office. Trying to get more info.
   1123. andrewberg Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:05 AM (#4016695)
Eric Gordon found out about the trade through a text message from Kelvin Sampson. So disrespectful.

Clips staff was just summoned to the office.


Obviously not Hornets' staff.
   1124. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:06 AM (#4016696)
And it's done.

Gordon, Kaman, Aminu and the T'Wolves pick. Good deal for both teams, I think.

They get to keep Bledsoe, so they now have 4 PGs on the roster. They're the new T'Wolves.

EDIT: Clips get 2 2nd round picks also.
   1125. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:13 AM (#4016701)
Except that the Clippers' point guards are actually good.

I would think both Billups and Williams could play the 2 with Paul. I think I could play the 2 with Paul.

I was joking last night that the future of Chris Paul's knees was dependent on whether he ended up with the Lakers or the Clippers. I hope I was wrong. The Clips, if healthy, are going to be a joy to watch.
   1126. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:13 AM (#4016702)
Eric Gordon found out about the trade through a text message from Kelvin Sampson. So disrespectful.

A single text? More like 300 hundred texts.
   1127. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:14 AM (#4016703)
The Clips, if healthy, are going to be a joy to watch.

Agreed, in spite of VDN. The sooner they fire him and get a real coach, the better.
   1128. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:20 AM (#4016709)
Does anyone know if Paul had agreed to an extension beforehand?
   1129. steagles Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:22 AM (#4016712)
EDIT: Clips get 2 2nd round picks also.
not a bad bit of GM'ing there. i think they'd have been better off keeping aminu over bledsoe, but from the rumored deal of a few days ago, they pulled bledsoe back and got those 2nd rounders on top.
Does anyone know if Paul had agreed to an extension beforehand?

i think he has to wait 6 months to get his full bird rights, so i doubt he signed anything.
   1130. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:26 AM (#4016716)
I think Derrick Rose is overrated, but man...if he were my guy, I'd love him.
   1131. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:26 AM (#4016717)
Ah, gotcha, thanks. Man, they better hope he signs. It's a good deal for LAC, but not a cheap one.

If I'm the Lakers, I'm furious. Chris Paul's going to be living in their city, playing in their building, and chipping away at their brand.
   1132. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:28 AM (#4016719)
Does anyone know if Paul had agreed to an extension beforehand?

At the time of the first trade agreement, there were rumors that he agreed to pick up his option for the 12/13 season to stay with the Clips; I'd have to assume this was the case again for the Clips to put more in the deal.
   1133. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:31 AM (#4016722)
So, updated POOMA '11-'12 Playoff Picture (tiered)

East
-MIA
-CHI

-BOS
-NYK

-ORL
-ATL
-IND

-PHI

West
-OKC

-LAL
-SAS
-MEM

-DAL
-DEN
-POR
-LAC
   1134. rr Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:36 AM (#4016725)
Dan Gilbert and Mark Cuban can rest a little easier tonight.

If I'm the Lakers, I'm furious.


Well, for the first time, there will be a real rivalry between the teams.

This whole thing is a good object lesson for both Laker fanboys and Lakerhaters, on a number of levels. The Lakers have had a combination of bad luck and bad management that landed them in the spot they are in. The Clippers had some of both to land them here.

I was going to write a couple of days ago that Howard would be next on Dr. Simmons' couch.
   1135. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:40 AM (#4016727)
I think this is a much better trade for the Hornets. I don't think it legitimizes Stern's decision to block the Lakers deal, but at least it didn't prevent the Hornets from making a good deal.
   1136. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:41 AM (#4016728)
I'd have to think about it some more, but I'd probably put Dallas up a tier, move LAC to the top of that bottom tier, and maybe replace Portland with Houston.
   1137. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:48 AM (#4016734)
I'd have to think about it some more, but I'd probably put Dallas up a tier, move LAC to the top of that bottom tier, and maybe replace Portland with Houston.

No quibbles with the other stuff but I just don't see DAL as dangerous, in any real sense, this year. They lost the backbone of their defense and Dirk and Nash are a year older.
   1138. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:52 AM (#4016740)
So, I just took a look at Aminu's numbers...I had no idea he was so terrible last year. For some reason I assumed he was better.

EDIT: Ah, I see, he was solid through December and then everything fell apart. If Gordon can develop and they hit it big with the unprotected pick they should be fine.
   1139. JJ1986 Posted: December 15, 2011 at 01:55 AM (#4016741)
I don't understand why the Hornets didn't force Okafor on LA. He'd even be useful there as the third big.
   1140. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: December 15, 2011 at 02:00 AM (#4016744)
I don't understand why the Hornets didn't force Okafor on LA.

Or Ariza and Jack. While not as bad as the Okafor deal, collectively they cost way too much for the type of team NOH will have.

The Hornets haul looks alright, and things are a bit different now with the salary floor, but the refusal to force interested teams to take bad contracts for Paul makes zero sense to me. If I were a "co-owner" of that team, I would not be pleased. And if I could stop it, I would. You simply can't unload that type of player without dumping some dead money along the way.
   1141. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 15, 2011 at 02:01 AM (#4016745)
EDIT: Ah, I see, he was solid through December and then everything fell apart. If Gordon can develop and they hit it big with the unprotected pick they should be fine.
I like Aminu, but the Clips never knew what to do with him. He came out of school with questions about his shooting, so of course the Clips had him shadow Rasual Butler and shooting 30% of his shots from beyond the arc. Aminu's strength is 15 ft. and in, and he's terrific flying to the basket. I would bet a good coach can really turn that guy around.
   1142. madvillain Posted: December 15, 2011 at 02:05 AM (#4016747)
Is David Stern eligible for the Executive of the Year?
   1143. Tripon Posted: December 15, 2011 at 02:09 AM (#4016749)

No quibbles with the other stuff but I just don't see DAL as dangerous, in any real sense, this year. They lost the backbone of their defense and Dirk and Nash are a year older.


Steve Nash still plays for the Mavs?
   1144. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 15, 2011 at 02:15 AM (#4016751)
Sorry about that, Kidd.
   1145. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: December 15, 2011 at 02:19 AM (#4016755)
Agreed, in spite of VDN. The sooner they fire him and get a real coach, the better.


Crap, I forgot about this. :(

Trade seems fine. I'm pretty sick of all this discussion and legal imbroglios and more than ready to actually watch some hoops.
   1146. Tripon Posted: December 15, 2011 at 02:20 AM (#4016756)
Maybe Phil Jackson should come out of retirement. He got his PG and Big already on the Clippers.
   1147. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: December 15, 2011 at 02:39 AM (#4016765)
So, it seems to me that for all the fuss, Stern wound up getting a better deal for CP3.
   1148. rr Posted: December 15, 2011 at 02:46 AM (#4016769)
A lot of the fuss wasn't really about the quality of the deal.
   1149. andrewberg Posted: December 15, 2011 at 02:48 AM (#4016770)
All hail Herr Stern!
   1150. Into the Void Posted: December 15, 2011 at 02:57 AM (#4016773)
Well, with the developments over the past few days it looks like us Warriors fans can mainly look forward to a high lottery pick.
   1151. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 15, 2011 at 03:06 AM (#4016780)
Well, with the developments over the past few days it looks like us Warriors fans can mainly look forward to a high lottery pick.


And the Jazz get it unless it's one of the first seven picks, IIRC.
   1152. steagles Posted: December 15, 2011 at 03:07 AM (#4016782)
East
-MIA
-CHI

-BOS
-NYK

-ORL
-ATL
-IND

-PHI
haters gonna hate. sixers gonna win.
   1153. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: December 15, 2011 at 03:15 AM (#4016785)
A lot of the fuss wasn't really about the quality of the deal.


Oh, completely understood. I can't believe Demps hasn't resigned yet. But (and baby, it's a big one), Stern wound up pulling a much better deal for the Hornets. I wonder how Simmons will respond to this? I assume it'll just fit into the Mr. McMahon motif: to be a credible heel, you have to deliver on your promises.
   1154. yb125 Posted: December 15, 2011 at 03:21 AM (#4016789)
Yes Jeff Van Gundy, made the point that a regular owner would've killed the Laker deal way earlier in the process and avoided the public mess, that is where Stern really messed up, I assume that he if have give the directive from the get go that Demps was to get a high pick and young talent for Paul and noting else was suitable then a lot of this doesn't happen.
   1155. rr Posted: December 15, 2011 at 03:30 AM (#4016797)
I wonder how Simmons will respond to this?


A combination of gloating and mild rebukes. Will talk about Gordon some. Won't say anything about Cuban. Will say it marks a turning point for both Lakers and Clippers franchises.
   1156. steagles Posted: December 15, 2011 at 03:31 AM (#4016798)
Stern wound up pulling a much better deal for the Hornets.
yeah, i think that's arguable. scola, odom, and martin are really good players.

and again, they paid a price to get minnesota's pick. that pick wasn't added on to LA's previous offer, it was added in place of eric bledsoe, and it cost NO (2) second round picks in addition.



i mean, maybe i'm wrong; maybe my disdain for tanking is clouding my judgment, but i'd have taken the 3 top 50 players and gone to war.
   1157. rr Posted: December 15, 2011 at 03:34 AM (#4016799)
With Gordon + the lotto pick, IMO this is a better deal.

I am skeptical about the return they get flipping Kaman, and about the value of Aminu, but we'll see. Odom makes less than Kaman and is guaranteed only 2.5 M in 12/13. But the pick + Gordon puts the Clippers deal over the top for both optics and basketball reasons.

Key to remember again that Stern screwed Houston to do this. Some may say that doesn't matter. I think it does.
And JVG has no idea what a "regular owner" would have done or said or what directives would have been given.

As to Moses' question about cost-cutting, the Vujacic TPE expires tomorrow. They have a year to use Odom's. They still need a guard and a backup 5.

And yes, as I said earlier, Bynum + Gasol for Howard might have worked with Odom here. His face-up game, handle and passing would have complemented Howard well.

Buss's challenge is to turn the Odom deal into a +.
   1158. yb125 Posted: December 15, 2011 at 03:38 AM (#4016800)
JVG has no idea that owners typically kill deals before they are agreed to by both teams and submitted for league approval? I think that is something he'd have knowledge on.
   1159. rr Posted: December 15, 2011 at 03:45 AM (#4016804)
JVG has no idea that owners typically kill deals before they are agreed to by both teams and submitted for league approval?


No, he has no idea what the non-existent owner of the New Orleans Hornets would have:

a) Told Demps to get for Paul
b) Said about the LAL offer

One of Simmons' "theories" is that the Hornets have an owner-in-waiting who ran this behind the scenes.
   1160. Norcan Posted: December 15, 2011 at 03:46 AM (#4016806)
This was a great trade for the Hornets. Instead of getting older and trapping themselves in the dreaded middle territory like with the rejected deal, an inexcusable return for their superstar player imo, they got promising young pieces. Gordon is a potential all-star 2-guard who may or may not make any appearances any time soon in the game because of his team's record but could play at a deserving level. I'm not sure the Minny pick will be in the high lottery because I'll they'll be much improved this season but I still can't see them making the playoffs so it should at the very worst fall in the late lottery. Aminu has promise and Kaman could be potentially be traded for a young player with the ability to be like 4-7 in the rotation. That's a great return.

Clippers made out well too because they got Paul. The only thing I would be concerned about him is that he was a different player in the regular season last year when wore a balky knee brace as opposed to in the playoffs when he played without one. It was night and day in terms of his quickness and activity level. Just guessing but if it turns out that playing without a knee brace compromises his long-term durability, then that'd be worrisome.
   1161. rr Posted: December 15, 2011 at 03:53 AM (#4016809)
@ yb125

If JVG just meant in general, sure--I think most people know that.
   1162. yb125 Posted: December 15, 2011 at 04:17 AM (#4016820)
Yes that is exactly what he meant, I only cited him since it was in my head because he said it today, and feel to need to cite things right now. His point was in response to idea that owners kill deals all the time and the league acted no different then a single owner would've.
   1163. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 15, 2011 at 05:01 AM (#4016838)
Chris Sheridan thinks this was a terrible deal for LAC and NOH because all it did was create two lottery teams.
   1164. King Mekong Posted: December 15, 2011 at 05:30 AM (#4016849)
I'll be the first to draw the parallel of the Paul/Griffin Clips to the Payton/Kemp sonics. I think they have the potential to be better because they are better at the top. Going down the starting 5 and 6th man (I will probably be wrong about the sonics and am guessing at the clips)

Paul / Payton
Billups / Hawkins
Butler / Schrempf
Griffin / Kemp
Jordan / Perkins

6th man
Williams / McMillan?/Askew?


Probably not as deep as those sonics, but you have to be pretty excited as a clippers fan. Especially at the top, I think the pairing of Paul and Griffin is stronger than Payton and Kemp. I'm also pretty high on DeAndre Jordan.
   1165. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:08 AM (#4016860)
Chris Sheridan thinks this was a terrible deal for LAC and NOH because all it did was create two lottery teams.
I don't know that it's terrible, but the price was really steep — Gordon, their lottery pick from last season, their lottery pick for next season, and Kaman and his expiring contract. For a team that was short on depth and talent to begin with, that's a pretty deep hole to dig out of. Building around Blake and Paul (let's assume he signs) is huge, but after that? They're essentially the Knicks. Jordan, Blake, Paul… and then you have to start buying talent because that team's too good to get low lottery picks but not good enough to be truly competitive. The Clippers are definitely better. I just don't know that they're good.

I'm not sure the Minny pick will be in the high lottery because I'll they'll be much improved this season but I still can't see them making the playoffs so it should at the very worst fall in the late lottery.
Did they get better? If they did, I missed it.
   1166. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:16 AM (#4016865)
RT @LoMoMarlins I forgot 2 leave her a signed baseball RT @realKeithK: LoMo how did ur twitter account not get u on Barbra walters most fascinating list?
   1167. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:21 AM (#4016870)
The other thing that strikes me about this deal as it pertains to Gordon is that NOH isn't going to be very good, and he's going to draw the max RFA contract next season. The assumption, of course, is that NOH matches to keep Gordon, but… Gordon's contract is expiring and Kaman's is expiring. The team's still locked into Ariza, Jack and Okafor for $25 million per for two more seasons (and Ariza for one more after that), and the team's on the block. David Aldridge made the point that, to the NBA FO, "basketball reasons" meant "finding a buyer", and part of that meant trimming the Hornets' contract commitments. IOW, they're not so much looking to get better as they're looking to get cheaper. They're a lottery lock right now, and with this trade they'll have two lotto picks. That's a big deal for a team that's going to be pretty horrible for at least a few years. I wouldn't rule out the Hornets dealing Gordon for another pick by the end of this season.
   1168. Norcan Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:31 AM (#4016874)
Did they get better? If they did, I missed it.


Not enough to make the playoffs maybe but they upgraded their coach, got a point guard who is a superb passer and above average defender and better than Ridnour or Flynn and drafted a pretty talented player with the no.2 pick. I think the combination of a good coach and infusion of young talent climbs them out of bottom five status in the league. They still have an unbalanced roster but it wouldn't surprise me if their first round pick comes in at the 8-11 range.

With the Clippers it's going to be interesting to see how Billups plays as a full-time 2. He really wasn't much of a passer so he's not going to have to change his style much but in matching up against bigger 2s for longer stretches, he's going to lose the size and strength advantage he enjoyed over most of his point guard counterparts. It's not a stretch to think he might be the worst defensive 2 in the league next season. That said, just seeing a foursome of Paul, Griffin, Billups and Butler out there, that's an impressive collection of shotmakers and high basketball IQ guys.
   1169. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 15, 2011 at 07:08 AM (#4016892)
...got a point guard who is a superb passer and above average defender and better than Ridnour or Flynn and drafted a pretty talented player with the no.2 pick.
Nobody at BTF was more excited about Rubio than I was when he got drafted, but we don't anything about how he'll pan out in the NBA. He's probably better than Flynn (I never liked Flynn much), but it's hard to say just how much "young talent" they actually added.
   1170. Norcan Posted: December 15, 2011 at 07:56 AM (#4016895)
Griffin's response to getting Paul was, "It's going to be Lob City." Truer words were never spoken. Paul, Griffin and DeAndre form the perfect lob trio. If there weren't so many scorers around him, DeAndre might average 10 points a game like Chandler did playing with Paul, although his foul rate would also be a big factor. With Griffin, I expect at least 20 mesmerizing aerial hookups with Paul this season.

In this video of a high school basketball game,, something called a double alley-oop dunk transpired. They should definitely start working on this as much as all the other basketball stuff.
   1171. smileyy Posted: December 15, 2011 at 08:09 AM (#4016897)
I had envisioned that dunk a little different, but still neat. I was picturing an alley oop pass being caught, taken down under the hoop and lobbed back up on the other side for a third player to dunk.
   1172. Norcan Posted: December 15, 2011 at 08:16 AM (#4016898)
   1173. smileyy Posted: December 15, 2011 at 09:00 AM (#4016900)
Nice.
   1174. jmurph Posted: December 15, 2011 at 03:01 PM (#4016947)
Fantasy Question:

Looks like I might be a little late to the draft. So as long as I pre-set my auction values, it will auto-draft for me? Does that sound right?
   1175. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: December 15, 2011 at 03:21 PM (#4016949)
I agree with 1167. By making this trade, it's at least a firm decision of the direction of the team (committed to a rebuild). A team of Martin/Odom/Scola/Okafor might have made the playoffs as a #7 or #8 seed, but those guys are mostly past their prime.
   1176. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 04:25 PM (#4016987)
No quibbles with the other stuff but I just don't see DAL as dangerous, in any real sense, this year. They lost the backbone of their defense and Dirk and Kidd are a year older.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm not convinced they're less dangerous than the Lakers, Spurs, or Grizzlies. In fact, I still say they're better than the Lakers at this moment. I'm not sure what I think about the Spurs, but I probably wouldn't pick the Spurs over the Mavs in a series right now.
   1177. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 15, 2011 at 04:49 PM (#4017006)
I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm not convinced they're less dangerous than the Lakers, Spurs, or Grizzlies. In fact, I still say they're better than the Lakers at this moment. I'm not sure what I think about the Spurs, but I probably wouldn't pick the Spurs over the Mavs in a series right now

I just had a really long staff meeting and I may have missed some of the moves that were made, but right now I see three tiers in the West. Tier 1 is OKC by itself. Tier 2 is an LAL, MEM, LAC, SAS mash-up. Tier 3 is DAL, POR, DEN. I was surprised at how high I ranked LAC but I think they have the shooters and athletes to make perfect use of Paul's talents. I assumed LAL would be higher but beyond their Top 3 I don't think much of any of their guys and Bynum is an injury worry and Kobe's got a ton of mileage. I don't necessarily see a ton of separation between the tiers though.
   1178. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 04:49 PM (#4017007)
Huh. From Hollinger's analysis of the Paul deal:

Those two 2015 second-rounders, by the way, are basically nonexistent junk that had to be included, per league rules, because this deal was effectively three separate trades: Paul for Kaman and the first-rounder, a junk second-rounder for Aminu and another junk pick for Gordon. One of the picks is from Memphis and has conditions so tight it will never get to the Hornets to give to the Clippers; the other is from the Hornets and has similar conditions.
   1179. andrewberg Posted: December 15, 2011 at 05:37 PM (#4017045)
I like this new Clipper team a lot, but I have to say that they are going to have to make huge leaps forward on defense to be a contender. Blake floated too much last year, Jordan was hardly the "qb of the defense" in the middle because he was not that fast to rotate if he did so at all. Paul i solid on the ball but gambles a lot and doesn't have guys who can save him (Jordan could become that, but hasn't done it yet), and Butler/Billups will likely both be at a speed/athleticism disadvantage almost every night. Add in the fact that they have a non-creative coach and no history of a defensive culture and i would say it is something to worry about.

As for the Wolves, it is funny to hear Adelman's comments. He is clearly trying to break down the young roster and rebuild it in his own way. They have been such a mess for the last few years that he has said that they are the worst defense he has ever seen and that they petitioned the league to get a point for each turnover because nobody takes care of the ball. They will probably start slow- tons of youth in the lineup and a new system- but I think there will be steady improvement and they will be pretty competitive toward the end of the season.
   1180. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 15, 2011 at 05:45 PM (#4017050)
Chris Sheridan thinks this was a terrible deal for LAC and NOH because all it did was create two lottery teams.

I think this is silly. The West ain't what it used to be. The Clippers might not be contenders, but a team that starts Paul, Billups, Butler, Griffin, and Jordan is going to make the playoffs if everyone stays reasonably healthy.

sixers gonna win

Yep, 34 or so times out of 66.
   1181. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 15, 2011 at 05:49 PM (#4017053)
In fact, Stoudemire said he has worked a lot on his ever-improving perimeter game and could play the role of the "stretch" forward to leave the pick-and-rolls for Chandler. "I've been working on my three-point shot," Stoudemire said.

Would D'Antoni mind seeing his 6-11 All-Star power forward pulling up for threes?

"As long as he makes 'em," D'Antoni said, "I don't care."
-Hahn

Apparently Shawne Williams has decided to sign with the Nets. Really hope Shumpert turns out to be as good as his summer workout/rap videos because he will be needed.
   1182. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:06 PM (#4017066)
I like this new Clipper team a lot, but I have to say that they are going to have to make huge leaps forward on defense to be a contender. Blake floated too much last year, Jordan was hardly the "qb of the defense" in the middle because he was not that fast to rotate if he did so at all. Paul i solid on the ball but gambles a lot and doesn't have guys who can save him (Jordan could become that, but hasn't done it yet), and Butler/Billups will likely both be at a speed/athleticism disadvantage almost every night. Add in the fact that they have a non-creative coach and no history of a defensive culture and i would say it is something to worry about.

I agree that defense could be a problem, but is there evidence that Paul gambles a lot? Subjectively, I don't feel that way at all, but am open to other suggestions.
   1183. steagles Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:17 PM (#4017073)

sixers gonna win

Yep, 34 or so times out of 66.
you know, i'm not gonna be crushed if this season turns to ####, but right now, i think the circumstances of this season play perfectly into the sixers strengths.

there's a short, condensed training camp, but the sixers brought back their top 8 scorers from last season (really their top 12, but only the top 8 really matter), and they were running last season's sets on the first day of training camp. that continuity should give them a huge leg up on everyone else, at least to start the season.

then, the condensed schedule should favor them in 2 ways. 1st, of the top 8 scorers they return from last season (hawes, brand, iguodala, meeks, holiday, young, turner, williams), 6 are younger than 25. the young legs should keep them relatively fresh on those 5 games in 6 nights stretches that are gonna pop up.

but 2nd, they're also very deep. their top 8 returning players all figure to see their minutes from last season go through to this one(though collins has said he wants to give young and hawes more run). plus, beyond them, you've got vucevic, speights, brackins, allen, and i guess nocioni.

but if you look at the actual composition of the roster, the sixers have 4 players in the top of their rotation (iguodala, turner, holiday, and williams) who can function as a primary ballhandler. assuming we see a healthy iguodala, the ability for the team to split their workload on offense should allow for a much more even wear on the team throughout the season.



oh, and also, related to the schedule, the season starts with a 5 game west coast road trip, but after that, the furthest they go out that way is san antonio.


i really think this a year that the sixers can ascend to the top of the league.
   1184. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:27 PM (#4017084)
Quantity does not equal quality, even though a deep young roster will help this year more than most (perhaps that is being overstated in general though).
   1185. Jimmy P Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:32 PM (#4017088)
Gordon is a potential all-star 2-guard who may or may not make any appearances any time soon in the game because of his team's record but could play at a deserving level. I'm not sure the Minny pick will be in the high lottery because I'll they'll be much improved this season but I still can't see them making the playoffs so it should at the very worst fall in the late lottery

I guess. I'm just not sold on Gordon being a franchise building block. I think he's a good player, and he may even be an All-Star, but he's a #3 on a contender. He's a better Kevin Martin, and I'm not a huge Kevin Martin guy (as I've made clear here).

I think the Hornets should be trying to flip all those guys, Aminu, Kaman, and Gordon for a stud. Don't know if it'd be possible, but you never know.

I also think that the T-Wolves pick will be high because while Adelman's good and their offense will improve, their defense is garbage. And, while their offense will be better, Beasley will be chuckin' so much that it'll still hold them back. The sooner they get rid of him, the better their team will be.
   1186. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:33 PM (#4017091)
Huh. From Hollinger's analysis of the Paul deal:
See, that's what I said about the Clips: it's a heavy, heavy price, and all they got in return was the one player. Paul's a really special player, of course, and assuming good health he's now the best player in Los Angeles, but they really paid through the nose for him.

The Clippers might not be contenders, but a team that starts Paul, Billups, Butler, Griffin, and Jordan is going to make the playoffs if everyone stays reasonably healthy.
Absolutely, but like you said, they're not contenders. The Lakers showed last year what happens when you take even supreme talent and surround it with crap, and the Clips are a lesser version of that right now: good enough to show, but not good enough to place.

This is where the Donald Sterling factor becomes important. Jordan's going to be making $10 million x 4 years, Mo Williams $8.5 million for the next two, Griffin $5.2, $7.2, and $9.4 million the next three, Paul $16.4 and $17.8 the next two, Butler $8 million for 3 years... they've gotten very expensive very quickly. They're at ~$64 million for this year -- THAT'S RIGHT, THE CLIPPERS ARE OVER THE SALARY CAP! for the first time that I'm aware of, and will be for at least the next two seasons even if this team does not add anymore talent.

They're much (much) better than they were before, but they're not better than OKC, Dallas, or even Memphis. They'll need to spend money and pay the new tax, be really smart, and navigate without lottery picks as leverage. They've never had to do that before, and organizational history tells us that they've never been particular smart for any extended length of time. Between the Clippers' history and Sterling's idiocy (and the fact that this deal only happened because my favorite team got boned) it's hard for me to get too optimistic about this.

(I can't wait to see them, though. I do have access to some Clipper games in luxury box seats like in the old days, so I'll be able to give game reports from the comfort of the 1%.)
   1187. Jimmy P Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:39 PM (#4017095)
See, that's what I said about the Clips: it's a heavy, heavy price, and all they got in return was the one player. Paul's a really special player, of course, and assuming good health he's now the best player in Los Angeles, but they really paid through the nose for him.

When you have the opportunity to get a guy of Paul's skill, you take it. In the NBA, quality is usually better than quantity.
   1188. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:39 PM (#4017096)
Absolutely, but I don't see the Clips' starting five as being better than the Bryant/Odom/Gasol/Bynum from last year, and the Lakers showed last year what happens when you take talent and surround it with crap.

They don't have to be better than last year's LAL team (which was really good, DAL exit aside). Has any WC team made more improvements than the LAC have? I think DAL, LAL, SAS and DEN off the top of my head are demonstrably weaker due to some combination of age/moves. I know I'm probably alone on this but I have a very difficult time seeing DAL as a top 4 seed and I think LAL are a Bynum injury away from a similar fate (because I think their roster beyond the Big 3 is just absolutely terrible).
   1189. Jimmy P Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:43 PM (#4017101)
I have a very difficult time seeing DAL as a top 4 seed and I think LAL are a Bynum injury away from a similar fate (because I think their roster beyond the Big 3 is just absolutely terrible).

Dallas is weaker. Haywood's the only center on the roster. He's not the defender Chandler is. They'll struggle against the Lakers, and maybe against the Clips. Blake's a handful, Dirk can't cover him and I don't think Haywood can keep up. OKC has to realize their time is right now. It's time to make small tweaks to the roster to get a bit more offense around Durant and Westbrook, and they need to decide if Brooks is the coach to get them there.
   1190. andrewberg Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:45 PM (#4017104)
I alluded to this earlier when I was talking about the defense, but one advantage the Clips have is that they have guys who are young enough to still improve. They have the athleticism to tune up the defense, and there are those other young player progressions (limiting turnovers, getting more efficient shots, fouling less) that could help Griffin and Jordan get even better. And that is without considering the synergy value of having an elite PG. Not a lot distributors change teams in their prime, but remember how much better young Amare and Marion got when Nash got to Phoenix? Some of it was statistical, but some of it was just how the team approached games, and Paul might do the same.
   1191. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:47 PM (#4017110)
When you have the opportunity to get a guy of Paul's skill, you take it. In the NBA, quality is usually better than quantity.
Oh, sure. I'm just saying that the cost of getting Paul may preclude being able to win with Paul if they aren't willing to spend into the cap in a way the owner has never indicated he was willing to go.

Has any WC team made more improvements than the LAC have?
No. They're by far the most improved team in the league.

I know I'm probably alone on this but I have a very difficult time seeing DAL as a top 4 seed and I think LAL are a Bynum injury away from a similar fate (because I think their roster beyond the Big 3 is just absolutely terrible).
I thought that was true of Dallas before they got Odom. Odom vaults them back to the top tier of the West. I don't see the Lakers as being a top-tier team in the West.
   1192. andrewberg Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:49 PM (#4017115)
Jimmy- I hear what you're saying about Brooks (and Klosterman quoted an anonymous coach loudly commenting that OKC is perfect for the triangle and their offensive approach is wasteful). Still, if there time is now, can they afford to change coaches? That's a pretty disruptive change. I am not sure one way or the other on that issue.
   1193. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:50 PM (#4017118)
When you have the opportunity to get a guy of Paul's skill, you take it. In the NBA, quality is usually better than quantity.

Agreed. The best players in the NBA are exponentially more important and valuable than your run of the mill rotation guy - not roughly linear, as it is in baseball.

I think there's a chance - not one I'd bet on, but enough of one that it wouldn't shock me - that the Clippers win 40-45 (translates to 50-55, roughly) games and get a top four seed. It's possible that Chris Paul will just make everyone else that much better.

Man, you'd have to like OKC to come out of the West right now, right? I am bearish on Memphis - I know they finished strong and looked great in the playoffs, but I don't see them as real contenders for the West. They'll probably be good, but I just see them as something closer to last year's Knuggets, almost - deep and good, but without the superstar(s) (sorry Z-Bo) that you typically see on teams that win it all.

Put it this way - I'd pick the Clippers to make the Finals before I picked the Grizzlies, and I don't think the Clippers will sniff the Finals either.
   1194. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:55 PM (#4017122)
Put it this way - I'd pick the Clippers to make the Finals before I picked the Grizzlies, and I don't think the Clippers will sniff the Finals either.


With the Paul trade having gone through and Howard ostensibly staying put, is it time to start up the predictions?
   1195. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 15, 2011 at 06:55 PM (#4017123)
I am bearish on Memphis - I know they finished strong and looked great in the playoffs, but I don't see them as real contenders for the West.
If I had to guess right now, I think the WCF will be OKC and Memphis. Dallas #3, SAS #4, and a scrum for the next four playoff spots.

I really, really like Memphis.
   1196. andrewberg Posted: December 15, 2011 at 07:03 PM (#4017129)
Joe- I think it is rational to question Memphis based on Z-Bo repeating what he just did. He had his most productive stretch of his career at an age where a lot of guys are past their prime. Getting Gay back helps a lot, but the identity of the team, and the thing that makes them special, is when defenses have to double team Randolph in the post or risk him converting at an absurd rate. If he doesn't do that, they're an above average defense and pedestrian offense- not a great team.
   1197. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 15, 2011 at 07:16 PM (#4017143)
Why'm I posting so much today? Jury duty. Time for me to get racist! I'll get us started:

Western Conference
1. Oklahoma City
2. Memphis
3. Dallas
4. San Antonio
5. Denver
6. Clippers
7. Portland
8. Lakers

9. Houston
10. Utah
11. Golden State
12. Phoenix
13. Sacramento
14. New Orleans
15. Minnesota

Eastern Conference
1. Chicago
2. Miami
3. Boston
4. Orlando
5. New York
6. Philadelphia
7. Atlanta
8. Milwaukee

9. Indiana
10. Detroit
11. New Jersey
12. Washington
13. Charlotte
14. Toronto
15. Cleveland

Round 1
OKC over LAL | MEM over POR
DAL over LAC | SAS over DEN

CHI over MIL | MIA over ATL
BOS over NY | NY over ORL

Conference Semis
OKC over SAS | MEM over DAL
CHI over BOS | MIA over NY

Conference Finals
OKC over MEM | MIA over CHI

Finals
MIA over OKC
   1198. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 07:20 PM (#4017148)
With the Paul trade having gone through and Howard ostensibly staying put, is it time to start up the predictions?

I say yes. And I'm already thinking of mine. But won't post until we flip pages.
   1199. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 15, 2011 at 07:24 PM (#4017151)
Baron Davis, btw, is the latest amnesty guy. Right after that happened, his agent told everyone he's got a back injury as is out 8-10 weeks. Now I'm not saying he's not hurt, but that's a much better strategy to becoming a FA than what Billups did.
   1200. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 15, 2011 at 07:24 PM (#4017152)
Well, dammit, I posted. I think we should...
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