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and to be fair, the rookie stiff is putting up a 25 PER in about 10 minutes per game.
What is the WAR of Ugg boots?
I'm assuming this is a joke?
I'm assuming this is a joke?
It's not a joke. Put him on ignore and his screen name history shows up. And if you put him on ignore, he'll be the only one reading his own posts, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of his silly little game. He's obviously still enraged about Posnanski or something.
Rose was just coasting for almost the entire 2nd half. He missed a couple layups with his left (injured) hand that would have made it an even easier win.
I Thought SVG comments after the game were telling, "quite frankly, we aren't at that (Chicago's) level". And, "two days ago we didn't show up, tonight was fine, we just got our ass kicked".
IMO, Miami and Chicago are on a different plane than anyone else in the league, including OKC, LA and the Sixers.
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As for the scuttlebutt (I too love that word and use it often in this thread) wrt to Howard, Chicago and Adidas -- it just doesn't make any sense to me. If Howard goes to Chicago and wins 2 titles, how in the world is that bad for Adidas? Does the local market really make that big of deal? Maybe it does.
Chicago is a better a team than Orlando; everyone knows that. They are a serious contender. But that game was not a signature, league-redefining win. Take Miami by double digits twice in a row or go to OKC and work them over, and we'll talk. Chicago's depth and all the crappy teams in the East set them up to run up a big W-L this year, so they will probably have HCA. But they had that last year. Also, I am not sure which "LA" Matt meant, but neither LA team is in that conversation.
As far as the Howard situation, Orlando is now 5-3. One loss was just an NBA grind-of-the-season loss--an off-game in Detroit. But the other two were worth noting. On Christmas in OKC, Orlando got down by about 18 or so, closed it some, but wound up losing by 10, and now has had a similar type of game against Chicago. SVG likes to yap so I wouldn't overreact to his comments, but I do think they reflect the "reality", as he said, that Orlando is a couple of steps below the best teams. Howard is out there on the floor, so he knows this as well.
A guy on an Orlando blog I looked at a few days ago hit on the Nash idea we have kicked around here, suggesting that Howard might do the Paul/LAC thing, and sign a two-year deal if Nash did the same. He said Orlando could offer Nelson and Redick, who are not useless by any means (Nelson has played very poorly this year; it may be that his age and lack of height will run him to ground quickly. Redick has played pretty well so far.) but obviously are not what Phoenix needs. Sarver would more or less just be doing Nash a favor, which is why I said that it would probably need to be a three-way.
There was also a rumor that the Knicks might get into it, offering Stoudemire, who is from FL. Howard and Chandler together would seem to be a bad idea. I have no idea if that has any legs; I would think they would then need to turn around and trade Chandler if they actually got Howard.
If Orlando can make a move, I think they might be able to envision themsleves as "this year's Dallas." Not saying it will happen, but almost no one saw Dallas coming, so I can see Orlando thinking they could do it, too. The problem there is that they have to deal with Chicago and Miami.
There are no league defining wins for serious contenders in the regular season. You and I both know that, this is the NBA for Pete's sake, nothing matters for the elite teams until the playoffs.
That said, it's not this one game, it's going 7-1, 5-1 on the road and an 11 ppg differential. Only the Heat stack up with Chicago by those measures. I'm telling you, it's a two team race, Chicago and Miami. Of course, you Robinred, maestro of all things Lakers and a reasonable person, don't consider LA a contender, but many mainstream people, and probably a few lurkers on this thread, consider them one.
And in my nomenclature, LA is the Lakers, LAC is the Clippers.
I've said my feelings on Howard many times. Unless he has an elite scoring wing to pair with him he's the easiest superstar in the game to defend. Chicago owns Orlando, they've won the last 5 against them. It's because they let Howard get his and stay on their 3 point shooters. At the end of the game you hack Howard. It's an easy strategy when you have the incredible depth Chicago does.
That's from Chicago's RealGM board, it's spot on.
Does Asik ever get "hot"?
Agree with the larger point, though. I don't see any team in the East, certainly, that approaches Miami or Chicago. Will be curious to see what OKC proves capable of out West. No other team out there seems, barring trades, to have the potential Miami and Chicago have flashed so far.
i think syracuse just went on a 21-1 run against a ranked marquette team.
according to them, the sixers have 4 of the 20 best lineups in the league, and the team's best lineup (holiday-turner-iguodala-young-hawes)* isn't even listed on the page, due to a lack of minutes (which is likely related to the fact that the sixers have played the fewest games in the NBA).
*in playing around with the data there, i've come to the conclusion that the sixers are absolutely awesome when xxx-turner-iguodala-young-hawes are in the lineup together. combined, the lineups with those 4 players (and either lou williams or jrue holiday) have outscored the opposition 95-56 in just 34 minutes of gametime. the offensive number could just be dumb luck related to shooting, but these lineups have also been pretty elite on the defense end of the floor.
seriously. they're about to beat an NBA team by 30, and none of their players are going to have scored more than 14 points.
final score: 97-62
Random observation: Lawson (and Andre Miller) seem to do a terrific job protecting the ball with their body. I always think they are about to get their shot blocked due to height (Lawson) or lack of athleticism (Miller) but somehow they make shots and then when I see the replay the difference is how they position their bodies.
the team won by 35 and their leading scorers finished tied with 14 points (holiday, iguodala). i'm not sure if there's an easy way to figure this out, but i can't imagine there's ever been a larger margin of victory in the NBA by a team whose leading scorer had fewer points.
anyway, hawes left late in the 2nd quarter with apparent back soreness. he came out to start the 2nd half, but he only made it 2 minutes before getting pulled from the game. with how well he's played to start the season, it'd suck a big, long, hard, hairy, slippery, salty, fat one if he's limited by this in any way.
eurogoon picked up some of the slack left in hawes absence, putting up 9 and 10 with 2 assists, 2 blocks, and a steal in 19 minutes. the guy just looks like a player.
there's really no need to single out anyone else's performance. the team was basically perfect, yet the individual performances were decidedly mundane. iguodala and holiday led in points. iguodala and eurogoon led in rebounds. holiday led the way with 6 assists, but 5 other players finished with between 2 and 4.
best player on the floor: iguodala*
*that's not really true, but i'm gonna give it to him anyway in recognition of the fact that he was 6/6 from the FT line.
I feel very conflicted about how to use their stuff. On the one hand, I do believe that combinations and matchups are really important. On the other, you're always dealing with tiny sample sizes. (Probably need a few years of data to feel really comfortable with a lot of it - and that's too long a period of time to treat the commodities involved as 'constants' + too long to wait in general.)
Glad to see Danny Green have a big night for SA (24-7-2-2-2) - I've long liked that guy as a 3nD type.
(fwiw, his stats from the d league and limited minutes in the bigs suggest that he's a rotation caliber player ... and hollinger's draft rater loved him (relatively speaking) coming out of school.)
Atlanta was 9/12 on 3s, 56% overall, and the Bulls were due for a loss. There will be many ups and downs like that throughout the league all year. Carlos Boozer was -39 in 22 minutes of floor time; Hollinger had four separate Tweets mocking Boozer. Rose was -33 in 28 minutes.
It's early, and some of that is the Memphis game, which was a bit of an outlier. Also, the West is more balanced than the East, so it will be harder to pile up big victory margins in the West, in general. The West teams lost a few games against the East's weak sisters for commercial/schedule reasons. The Bulls beat the Lakers by 1, lost to GS by 8, beat Sacto by 10, and LAC by 13.
As far as Howard, the Bulls don't really have a Howard-slower like Collins or Perkins. They always beat Orlando because they have Rose and two or three other guys better than Orlando's other guys.
I'm not knocking Chicago, but I don't see a big separation between them and OKC in terms of which of them is more likely to beat Miami four times.
Hollinger is in love with them. Seeing them against the Lakers, I was not overwhelmed. But, this year could be a window in the West for Portland, Denver or Memphis if everything clicks. Oklahoma City is very young and may need to make a tweak or two and/or move Westbrook to take the next step, LAC needs a couple of more rotation guys, and SA and DAL have age on their stars and other issues. But the good-at-every-spot plan is tough to pull off unless you have elite defense and a couple of good big guys, like the Pistons team in 2004.
Who went 2 for 0? They need to keep getting that guy involved.
there are 7 rotation players whose PER is above 15 (eurogoon leads the way with a 28, though he's done his damage in only 59 minutes--everyone else has more than 180 minutes), plus evan turner, who's lagging behind with a 14.
on monday, the team hosts the pacers, so hopefully that'll be a stiffer test than TOR, DET, or GSW. monday's game is also the first of a back-to-back-to-back, and it's the 3rd game of a stretch where they'll play 7 in 9 days. and the 3rd game of that back-to-back-to-back is @ the knicks, so that should be another good test for the team, at least if they have any spring left in their legs.
Teams that Philadelphia has beaten so far: Phoenix, Golden State, New Orleans, Detroit, Toronto. Not exactly a murderers row. Granted, they've beaten them by a lot, which is generally a very good sign. And their two losses were both away, and both close. Still, it's obviously a bit early to draw big conclusions.
They've gotten off to a good start. I'll be curious to see how they do against Indiana at home tonight.
Kings are still losing to ORL by 3.
Eric Maynor tore his ACL and will miss the rest of the season.
they were also both home openers. both buildings were absolutely electric.
i'm very excited for it. i've got a feeling that if meeks goes off early, the game will be an absolute rout. he's averaging about 20 minutes per, but the bulk of those minutes have come in the 1st quarter, when the team has really struggled to execute offensively, and he's really been absolute ####. the team has (basically) gotten nothing from him, and they have a 15 point per game differential. if he actually starts hitting his shots, my preseason predictions may even wind up being pessimistic.
i'd say that's pretty impressive.
and, since all things i post in this thread must always connect with the sixers, i believe that earlier in this thread i said that the thunder are the only other team in the league who could match up against the sixers in terms of youth, athleticism, experience, and continuity. i think there's a certain kind of destiny that's becoming apparent, as both teams shot out to 5-2 records going into a back-to-back-to-back.
i'd say that's pretty impressive.
I think saw someone tweet something about teams being undefeated in the last game of the back to back to back thus far.
That's probably the most alert thing Speights has done on the floor.
The turd the Bulls laid in Atlanta on Saturday night was the Hawks' third game of their back to back to back. Of course, the Hawks also played 4 OTs in the first two games of that stretch.
As for the game itself...
Atlanta was 9/12 on 3s, 56% overall, and the Bulls were due for a loss. There will be many ups and downs like that throughout the league all year. Carlos Boozer was -39 in 22 minutes of floor time; Hollinger had four separate Tweets mocking Boozer. Rose was -33 in 28 minutes.
I think the Hawks started 8 for 8 on 3's (Radmonovich was 5/5 in the first half, IIRC). The Hawks jumped out to a huge lead in the first (I think they were up 16 early) thanks to nailing open shot after open shot. The Bulls pulled it to within 2 late in the 2nd quarter, only to see the Hawks finish the half on another huge run and go into halftime up 15 or so. They didn't stop missing in the 3rd quarter, and built the lead up to 27 or so before Thibs threw in the towel. It was, by far, the worst performance I've seen out of the Bulls - effort-wise at least - under Thibs. It's like the Bulls assumed it would be a schedule win for them because of the Hawks games Thu/Fri, and then were shocked the Hawks actually tried.
It is also odd that the Clippers have played 4 fewer games than the Lakers and some others.
"why spencer hawes could be the next lebron james"
i wouldn't bother clicking the link (there's really not anything of substance that's there), but i did want to point out its existence.
which includes the following table, related to the sixers:
Wins ProducedExpected Actual Forecast (takes current record as given)
7.0-0.0 5-2 64 - 2
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While fooling around with the (way too small of a sample size to draw any sort of meaningful information) league rankings, something odd is going on with the SOS at BB-Ref. Sort the Misc Box by SOS and the first 14 teams ranked with the hardest schedules are all from the West; the East occupy 15 of the 16 easiest schedules (only the T'Wolves aren't in the group at top with the West, they're 18th). That's entirely freakishly coincidental, or something ain't right.
and i think the SOS for the east gets dragged down pretty heavily by washington, detroit, new jersey, and charlotte. all of those teams have an average margin of defeat over 10 points per game, and even the worst teams in the west are significantly more competitive.
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I'm saying I think that with teams playing only between 6 and 10 games we wouldn't see such a stark difference in East/West SOS yet, especially since some teams have played more from the other conference than their own or vice versa, etc.
Oh, whoops. And it's not even that generic a name. There's only 3 Andersons in the NBA, compared to 10 Johnsons and 12 Williamses.
Noah just flat out sucks so far this year (38% shooting). Even his defense isn't quite right. Well, I guess his passing has been ok (in key spots anyway).
i know kevin used to be a big proponent of the guy, but i'm really not at all familiar with his work. is he aware of the fact that the sixers are not likely to finish the season by winning 63 games in a row?
I applaud Berri for trying to bring some rigorous academic study to what wins basketball games, but his analysis starts from a flawed premise, that you can regress the box score stats into meaningful team wide predictors. Berri once claimed that Rodman was more important to the Bulls than Jordan.
i believe that's a whole lot of good ju-ju.
Complete link, this is just meant to be on how the teams have played so far, not predictive (clearly 5th would be at least 4 spots too low for the Sixers if we're talking predictive).
i'd like to see the team jump out of the gate to start the 3rd, but if it stays close, i'll be pretty curious at what the rotation will look like in the 4th quarter. they really haven't had an opportunity to run meaningful late game sets, so that might be something to look for.
EDIT: Aaron Affllalo (sp?) has been really unimpressive to me thus far. He plays like a star, but lacks the star athleticism/skill. Way too much dribbling and wild drives from him.
eurogoon put up 11 and 8 in about 18 minutes. he hit a 3 and showed some post moves. that's another really good game for him off the bench.
thaddeus young had 12 and 8, plus steals, assists, charges, and a really sweet chasedown block in transition that probably should have been called goaltending.
iguodala had 20, 9, and 5 in a season-high 39 minutes. seeing as this was the first game of a back-to-back-to-back and the 3rd game of 7 in a 9 day span, that amount of run could be problematic.
hawes with 12 and 8, brand with 6 and 5.
the sixers bench outscored indiana's bench 41-19. lou, thad, ET, and eurogoon combined to shoot 17/29 from the field.
paul george wound up with 13, 7, and 5, but he only shot 4/16 from the field.
that's a hell of a win.
Sorry, but I don't see it that way. They were at home. Granger didn't play, and neither did George Hill. Paul George had to go 44 minutes and lead the Pacers in shot attempts. He wasn't up to it.
As a few people here and elsewhere have noted, the 76ers have a good "lockout year" team: depth, youth, continuity, balance. Add that to the lousy teams 9-15 in the East and the 76ers are going to have a good record. But as up and down as most teams have been, it seems very clear that the league at the moment is:
Miami
Chicago Oklahoma City
______________________
Then a knot of 13 teams. Not that all these teams are exactly the same, but I think it is pretty clear that most of the following teams will very probably make the post-season:
EAST PHI BOS ORL NY ATL IND
WEST SA DAL LAC POR DEN LAL MEM
I think the East is pretty locked in to the eight teams above. Even if Orlando trades Howard, I think they will get something good enough in return that they will still make it to the post-season. In the West, I could see injury-driven scenarios such that the Lakers or the Grizzlies hit 9th place, and Houston or Minnesota or Phoenix (I think Minnesota is better than Utah, even with the records) makes it to 8th. Memphis will obviously miss Randolph and Arthur, although I think they have covered about as well as they could with Cunningham and Speights.
Where the 76ers are in that knot...they are probably better than many people realize. Hawes appears to be better, they will get more out of Turner, and Vucevic looks like a nice get. But they have played only two of the other 15 teams on that list. They lost to one, and beat the other at home by 10, when it was short-handed. The best player is probably still Iguodala. It is hard to seriously contend that way, no matter how many guys you have who are pretty good.
One thing that could happen for them is that Jrue Holiday could be a second-tier star. But I don't see that happening this year.
It's early January and the Sixers just beat, at home by 10 points, a team that will (at best) be a seven or eight seed. They should definitely send the game ball to the Basketball Hall of Fame. I think it's fair to say it's one of the most impressive and important wins in sports history.
and right after he was drafted:i was wrong about him having no athleticism. he's got some move in him. the size thing seems like it was a bit overblown by me--he doesn't really look that big, and he's not really at all lumbering. watching him play, even in limited action, it's really easy to see how he played 35 minutes per game at USC. not having really seen him play there, i don't know if he was this good, but he's got a jump shot, post moves, passing ability, he's good in the pick and roll, he's a great help defender, he's not worthless one on one in the defensive post. he rebounds well on both the offensive and defensive glass. and to say he has a good head was really spot on. on both ends of the floor, he's just always in the right position.
and then there's this
and also, jon leuer (who i was pimping for a few months prior to the draft) is putting up 13 and 9 per 36 minutes for milwaukee, adding some steals, blocks, assists, and shooting 51% from the floor for milwaukee. he looks like he's really one of the only bright spots they've had so far this season.
We're due for a new thread, by the way.
Just a spambot. Clearly not gaelen, and supposedly confirmed by Jim (only Andy's old ass thought it was him).
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Boozer had a great game for the Bulls last night, obviously it's less impressive when you consider it was against the diminuitve and pathetic Pistons. 23pts on 9/13 shooting (and he wasn't settling for 18ft jumpers on all of them; which has been a habit of his this year). Once again, he tried on defense, which is notable for him (he even dove on the ground for a loose ball; a first in his Bulls career). I am really starting to worry about Noah though, no FGA (4 FTs though). I haven't heard anything about any injuries with him or lingering health problems, but again I'll just say he ain't right. Thibs agrees too, because he's losing a lot of minutes (and key minutes late in games) to Asik. And don't look now, but Ronnie Brewer might have figured out what shots he should be taking; he's been great with Rip out and even though defenses play him differently than Rip (and rightfully so, I should add), the Bulls offense is still looking decent with him on the floor.
And the Lakers are ahead of the Thunder. I respect Hollinger, but the Power Rankings are page-hit conversation piece.
It says that in addition to being a great basketball team, the 76ers are also a great collection of men who have no urge to humiliate lesser foes.
And like almost everything else, the limited sample size also comes into play.
I was sure this was going to be an Albright picture.
Yeah, it suits him to be a contrarian because there is little value in providing an alternative evaluative methodology that produces the same results.
Anyone notice that Byron Don't-call-me-BJ Mullens has been getting double figures most nights in Charlotte? He really likes getting out of the low post. He plays like a slow 3 at times, but at least he can take up space at the other end.
Mullens: He's topping my expectations, that's for sure. He's been like what I thought a more active version of what I thought Hawes' ceiling was (minus Spencer's passing).
http://basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1257&nocache=1326228835
If that doesn't summon a new thread, nothing will.
I don't have an issue with that per se; it's a snapshot, created by formulas, and a conversation piece. People overreact to it all the time. But raise your hand if you think:
a) Philadelphia is the best team in basketball (Have a seat, Mr. Steagles. I will see you after class).
b) The Lakers are better than Oklahoma City.
that's still pretty much the essence of my feelings about the team, except it's a bit different now, because, instead of it just being me asserting my belief that they're a very good team, they're actually going out every night and proving it on the court.yeah, that site has been astoundingly pessimistic. like, trade iguodala, amnesty brand, let thaddeus young walk if he's signed to an offer sheet, and tank for the next 3 years in the hopes of maybe becoming sacramento.
if they weren't actually seriously proposing these things, it would be a pretty awesome parody of the typical person who calls into the local sports radio talk shows.
a) Philadelphia is the best team in basketball (Have a seat, Mr. Steagles. I will see you after class).
b) The Lakers are better than Oklahoma City.
I think this misconstrues the point of the rankings. They aren't saying Team A is better than Team B, they're saying Team A HAS THUS FAR been better than Team B. At least, that's the way I look at it, and that's why I've never understood why these rankings tend to cause so much of an issue on this thread.
Uhhh, yes:
it's a snapshot, created by formulas, and a conversation piece. People overreact to it all the time.
To point out that the Power Rankings are snapshots, created by formulas, that don't always jibe with basic things we know. Hollinger and Pelton have explained this many times, but not that many people seem to have internalized it. I personally care very little about the Power Rankings; they are just kind of a fun thing to look at. The Lakers were too high in them last year for weeks in large part because they beat Cleveland by 55 points one night last year.
I do think that most people HERE get it; I honestly don't recall many BTF arguments over the Power Rankings.
I wonder if, like ESPN's overrulling Simmons and choosing "Grantland" over "The Wheelhouse" or whatever, the term "Power Rankings" is a network thing, and Hollinger would call it something else if he could.
Is this a thing? I had not heard anything like that before.
I think its more just a sports media term now. That's just what you call that sort of ranking, ESPN, SI, CBS they all call them that. No idea why that became the accepted usage, but seems to be widespread.
According to Simmons, yes. He said in an interview he wanted to call it something else, but didn't push it because, "you have to pick your battles."
I'm not. Third game in three days, all with travel in between. They looked flat in Toronto last night. My hopes are very low.
I'm not. Third game in three days, all with travel in between. They looked flat in Toronto last night. My hopes are very low.
As mentioned before, the Bulls already lost to a team on game 3 of 3, so, you never know. This is game 2 of 3 in a row for the Bulls, and the only one not in Chicago. Love should have a big game against Boozer though (I think I'm going to predict this every game the rest of the year he has against a PF that is either decent or has any sort of outside shot).
I will boldly predict that he will shoot better than 3/16 tonight. For all the bad things that happened last night, getting Barea back was a big improvement. I like how he plays off the ball when he's in the game with Rubio. He does all of the things I want a SG to be able to do- make enough shots to stretch the defense, slash to the hoop and finish one on one, be able to pass off of penetration without necessarily initiating the offense- but at a height that requires him to play with a PG who can guard a 2. At this point, Rubio is actually probably better off guarding 2's as long as they are not Kobe or Wade.
I also don't mind when Ridnour plays off the ball on offense because he's a very competent spotup shooter. I might have said this before, but he reminds me of when Hinrich used to play off the ball in Chicago. You can see the PG trying to get out, then he remembers that he's more of a scorer, and it works out well enough.
What I don't like is Wayne Ellington. It is striking to see how many different shots he takes every night. What I mean by that is that most elite players kind of have their "spots." It might be a block that they like to work off of, a spot around the arc where they're used to shooting, a two dribbles then a floater in the lane move, etc. Ellington has no conscience. He will take any and every shot, even if it is something he has obviously never practiced before. It leads to lots of inefficiency. I wonder how he has the confidence to take such random and undisciplined shots. I guess the confidence comes from being the only 2 in a 4-man backcourt rotation, and having your 2 competitors out indefinitely.
I mean, I'm aware the switch won't take effect until tomorrow anyway. But it's something I'd prefer to do now...
Just add the new guy and it wil give you an option to drop someone
Chuck Hayes and Marcus Thornton missed tonight's game. Hickson and Fredette, starting, went a combined 3/12.
OKC and MEM, two of my league pass teams, are playing an entertaining game.
the starting unit has generally come out flat. at this point, iguodala, brand, and hawes are really the least athletic players in the team's rotation, and jodie meeks is a fairly one-dimensional offensive player, so the offense from the starting unit has been really ineffective at the starts of games.
about 6 minutes in, collins will bring in some combination of lou williams, thad young, evan turner, and now, nikola vucevic. the players they usually sub for are meeks, brand, and hawes. now, the pace established by the starting 5 is generally very deliberate, and when lou and thad come into the game, the intensity they bring with them has generally led to a fairly significant run in the sixers favor as they run laps around the other team.
at the end of the first quarter, they'll hold a slim lead, maybe 2-8 points.
the second quarter is usually defined by a steady increase in the margin. there's really no explosive run at this point, but the defensive intensity will pick up, and you can usually see that the sixers just have more jump than the opposition.
the third quarter is where the damage is done. this team really comes out with a killer instinct after the half, and they'll just open gaping deficits. they came out 11-0 to start the 3rd quarter tonight, and they had a 30-8 run in the 3rd quarter against toronto the other night.
by the 4th quarter, the game is usually decided. when detroit pulled saturday's game to within 6, the sixers went on an 11-1 run to basically put the game on ice. they added to their lead a few minutes later with a 13-1 run that opened the margin up to 23.
in a game like tonight's, the entirety of the 4th quarter is basically garbage time. the team only has 4 guards, so one of the rotation guys is always on the floor (which is getting to be a bit annoying, because it would absolutely suck if the team lost evan turner for the season because he tears his knee with 3 minutes to go in a game the team leads by 23), but tonight, the lineup that finished the game was turner-nocioni-brackins-allen-battie. the sixers dressed, and played, all 13 players on the roster.
anyway, i'm gonna say that jodie meeks goes off tomorrow and the sixers hang 115 on the knicks at MSG. this is an opportunity to make a statement against the competition in the atlantic division, and i'm optimistic that they do just that.
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