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Friday, December 02, 2011

NBA THREAD DECEMBER: POST-LOCKOUT

With the lockout over, I estimate that there may be more than 10-12 Primates who want to talk about the NBA, and with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: fractional reserve banking, and Tim Tebow.

rr Posted: December 02, 2011 at 12:26 AM | 3254 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: general

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   2701. The Essex Snead Posted: January 24, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4044199)
Stop me if you heard this before: the Wizards are (outside of John Wall & the rookies on the team) a bunch of uncoachable knuckleheads that could give a fig about anything besides their own business. Maybe McGee & Young are salvagable, if the team brings in someone (either a player or coach) that's not opposed to cracking skulls & showing some tough love. But Blatche needs to be fired ASAP. Or maybe Randy Wittman can annoy him enough that he'll do something suspension-worthy.

At least they're not the Kings?
   2702. rr Posted: January 24, 2012 at 01:43 PM (#4044224)
1. Kobe is obviously more high profile (yay page views!)


Uh-huh. Melo's first game against Denver, in MSG, no less, and the guy who replaced him goes 11/19 and outplays him...very low-profile set-up, to be sure. Plus, people are burned out on the Kobe thing and the comment numbers are way down... if Abbott gets Melo in his sites, he pulls in a bunch of poeple from ESPNNY.

2. 2. IIRC, Melo's game winning shot numbers, which is a big part of what this is all about (I think...I may not remember at this point) are actually pretty good, or at least better than Kobe's. I almost typed Satan for Kobe just now and it made me think of how Melo is a homeless man's Kobe. So...who/what is a homeless man's Satan?


Sure. And in this game, Anthony tied the game with a heroballshot that you yourself commented on and then bricked shots/looked awful in OT trying to shoot against double-teams and the Knicks lost--exactly what Abbott is supposedly trying to get teams to stop doing.



   2703. andrewberg Posted: January 24, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4044234)
Maybe McGee & Young are salvagable, if the team brings in someone (either a player or coach) that's not opposed to cracking skulls & showing some tough love. But Blatche needs to be fired ASAP.


McGee's overbearing mom worries me. If she is always in his ear telling him he's the future of the NBA and a superstar already, it is going to be hard to get him to understand that he needs to systematically reprioritize his game. He has the tools to be a productive player, but does many, many, many of the wrong things. Even Tyson Chandler went through some humbling experiences before becoming the intelligent, motivating defensive rock that many hope McGee will become. Will he be willing to submit himself to that effort and lack of grace to win games if he already believes he's a star?

Blatche, yeah, everything bad I have said about Beasley goes double for him. I don't even think he's suited for a bench scorer role.

I agree that Young is salvagable. I think he's simply overexposed now. He'd be a very good 7th man to stretch the floor off the bench in the way that Korver does. Stretching him to do more is going to make him do things that he does not do efficiently.

---

One part of the Melo fallout that interests me is the impact on STAT. I have seen the graphs that show how much he's shooting outside this year- do you guys think it's by design, something that will be fixed, Melo's responsibility... what's up?
   2704. Chicago Joe Posted: January 24, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4044266)
So...who/what is a homeless man's Satan?


Sterling.
   2705. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: January 24, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4044271)
One part of the Melo fallout that interests me is the impact on STAT. I have seen the graphs that show how much he's shooting outside this year- do you guys think it's by design, something that will be fixed, Melo's responsibility... what's up?

STAT is shooting jumpers because 1.) Chandler is in the paint 2.) Even if Chandler weren't in the paint, he just isn't quick enough in his current +20 pounds of muscle state to outquick 4s like he did 5s last year (worst case scenario, this is also knee-deterioration related) (the other side of this is the fact that literally every player he has attempted to guard this year has blown by him at least once a game) 3.) Melo is incapable of/refuses to run the PnR with him despite being rather adept at it with Chandler.
   2706. Fourth True Outcome Posted: January 24, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4044272)
One part of the Melo fallout that interests me is the impact on STAT. I have seen the graphs that show how much he's shooting outside this year- do you guys think it's by design, something that will be fixed, Melo's responsibility... what's up?


I am admittedly not all that informed on this one, but isn't a chunk of this the lack of pick-and-roll opportunities for him? The Knicks don't really have anyone to initiate it with him.

Edit: Or what NJ said, minus a bunch of details.
   2707. The Essex Snead Posted: January 24, 2012 at 02:19 PM (#4044280)
Free Sebastian Telfair (or any point guard worth a lukewarm darn) (so the Knicks can run a little thing called "offense")
   2708. andrewberg Posted: January 24, 2012 at 02:24 PM (#4044288)
So maybe STAT will show some improvement once BD comes back and they have someone facilitating his dives to the hoop. I like his game, so I'm looking for reasons for optimism.
   2709. madvillain Posted: January 24, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4044293)
Chicago is 16-3. They are 2nd in defensive rating and 1st in offensive rating. This is with Rose missing 4 games, Noah 1, Deng 1, and Gibson 2. Mike James was forced into action against the Bobcats and had 10 points and 9 assists. Brian Scalabrine was a key part of the 2nd quarter run that doomed the Nets.

Seriously. The biggest worries right now are 1) Deng's wrist (non shooting hand but seems pretty bad, the sort of thing you either have surgery on and miss 2 months or you try and play with but maybe isn't right all year) and 2) Rose's toe -- which seemed fine last night.
   2710. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: January 24, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4044296)
So maybe STAT will show some improvement once BD comes back and they have someone facilitating his dives to the hoop. I like his game, so I'm looking for reasons for optimism.

Such is the hope. I forgot to add that as far as the other potential PnR partners, I have better handle than Toney Douglas, Shump Shump gets out of whack when dribbling in tight spaces such as on the PnR despite how good he is at dishing on the interior after penetration, and Mike Bibby is dead.
   2711. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: January 24, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4044299)
Chicago is 16-3. They are 2nd in defensive rating and 1st in offensive rating.

Wow, did not realize this one. This is actually pretty shocking.

Does anyone know why OKC refuses to play Ibaka starter's minutes? Is it part of a plan to depress his value so they can keep the team together or something?
   2712. steagles Posted: January 24, 2012 at 02:32 PM (#4044300)
re: wizards,

they have more than a few salvageable parts. mcgee and wall are elite athletes with inconsistent basketball skills, but wall is only 21, mcgee is only 24, and there's plenty of time for either of them to reach their athletic potential.

singleton has a ton of potential on defense, and booker is a solid rebounder.

crawford and young are gunners, but neither offers much of anything else. i think either of them could succeed in a jason terry type of roll, where they come off the bench with a bunch of defensive minded role players and just light up the scoreboard.

seraphin, mack, and vesely have potential but they haven't really had the opportunity to flash it in games just yet.


if we're just looking at the surface of this team, though, i think the most eye-popping thing about it, is that, of the 6 players on the team who have taken 100 shots, 5 of them are shooting at 40% or below. wall, young, blatche, crawford, lewis, they're all just woefully inefficient.


they're not without hope, but the combination of players they have on hand is just awful.
   2713. madvillain Posted: January 24, 2012 at 02:52 PM (#4044338)
Chicago is 16-3. They are 2nd in defensive rating and 1st in offensive rating.

Wow, did not realize this one. This is actually pretty shocking.


It's been fun to watch. Adding Rip and a vastly improved Ronnie Brewer (and subtracting Bogans) has done wonders for the offense. Rip is really a master at drawing attention and making the right pass. Brewer is knocking down his open jumpers and doing his usual great work along the baseline. I'm doubtful he can keep up his hot start from outside, but so far so good.

Rose has evolved into a hybrid of Wade and Deron Williams. Whatever the game calls for he gives you. If the Bulls need to slow it down he slows it down, speed it up he speeds it up. If they need him to score he scores if Boozer is hot he gets it to Boozer in his sweet spots. If Korver is open he nails him.

I'm a huge Rose homer but the evolution of his game from skittish and uber-talented to supreme commander and uber talented has been nothing short of amazing.
   2714. rr Posted: January 24, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4044402)
The biggest worries right now are

LeBron James and Dwyane Wade.
   2715. madvillain Posted: January 24, 2012 at 03:41 PM (#4044404)
LeBron James and Dwyane Wade.


This is true. I am of the believe that if Chicago wants to beat Miami, they need HCA. Thus, Deng's injury, if it prevents that, is a worry.

But yea, bring on the playoffs. I've seen enough wins and injuries.
   2716. rr Posted: January 24, 2012 at 03:44 PM (#4044407)
yea, bring on the playoffs. I've seen enough wins and injuries.


Indeed. When your team is on that level, you just want to avoid injury until the money games.

At the level above that--Sixersville--you just laugh at injuries and see them as yet another way to toy with the emotions of the opponents.
   2717. rr Posted: January 24, 2012 at 03:45 PM (#4044411)
Saunders got fired.
   2718. APNY Posted: January 24, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4044421)
STAT is moving around like Frankenstein out there. I fear he may be permanently damaged.
   2719. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: January 24, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4044423)
LeBron James and Dwyane Wade.

Am I the only one here who buys into the theory that the Heat are more dangerous without Wade?
   2720. rr Posted: January 24, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4044434)
Am I the only one here who buys into the theory that the Heat are more dangerous without Wade?



An interesting question. I have not looked at any data, so I am just opining here, but I tend to think that while they may might be better in stretches, as they have been, over time, not having him would catch up with them, and they sure as hell will need him to beat Chicago.

Against bad and mediocre D, they can look better in stretches because of better ball movement, matchup edges, etc. Against tougher D or in bad matchups, you need those rare guys who can consistently create something out of nothing.
   2721. steagles Posted: January 24, 2012 at 04:29 PM (#4044502)
Am I the only one here who buys into the theory that the Heat are more dangerous without Wade?
if you look at the heat--without wade--versus the cavs team that went to the NBA finals, miami is much, much more talented. using PER as a shorthand, that 2007 cavs team had only 4 players who were above average. there was ilgauskas, gooden, and marshall, but none of them were in bosh's league. in the playoffs, varejao and gibson kind of broke out, but the heat have anthony and chalmers for almost the exact same roles. and beyond those 3, the heat also have haslem and battier and miller and jones.


the difference in the caliber of offense between this heat team and the cavs team that lebron dragged to the finals is gargantuan.



here's the thing, i don't think there's any way that dwayne wade can come back and improve on the heat's current offensive performance. so, from that standpoint, i think there is an argument they are more dangerous.

   2722. Al Peterson Posted: January 24, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4044508)
Saunders got fired.

Let the tanking continue! Who takes this mess of a job?
   2723. Fourth True Outcome Posted: January 24, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4044520)
Let the tanking continue! Who takes this mess of a job?


I hear Phil Jackson is available!
   2724. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: January 24, 2012 at 04:42 PM (#4044554)
Deng has a torn left wrist ligament. He's opted for rest over surgery and there's no timetable now. He should miss several weeks though.
   2725. jmurph Posted: January 24, 2012 at 04:58 PM (#4044604)
Let the tanking continue! Who takes this mess of a job?


Anybody willing to take this job without all three of the following happening has decision-making problems, and thus shouldn't be hired:

1. A win in the lottery in hand
2. Blatche off the team
3. Lewis amnestied, and a majority of his cap space available to be spent
   2726. steagles Posted: January 24, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4044615)
3. Lewis amnestied, and a majority of his cap space available to be spent
i'm wondering about this. lewis's contract for next season is only partially guaranteed. if they waive him before amnestying him (which could be necessary depending on the wording of the contract. chaunce billups' salary for this year was only partially guaranteed as well, but the date they had to cut him by fell before the amnesty period (hell, it came before there even was an amnesty period, since his date was 4/30), are they committed to paying his salary against the cap, or can they amnesty him after they waive him, and thus save 10 million?
   2727. steagles Posted: January 24, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4044660)
Alvaro Martin: NBA-TV: #AveryBradley said #JameerNelson told him last night "Don't pick me up, don't pick me up" as he crossed midcourt to go on offense. about 8 minutes ago


Michael Lee: Flip: "Job description changed drastically, when we experienced gun in the locker room situation. We went to..all of a sudden survival mode" about 14 minutes ago
Ethan J. Skolnick: Already, that's AHorford, ZRandolph, LDeng, EGordon, Ginobili who have suffered month-long injuries. That team would win a division. about 39 minutes ago

Ethan J. Skolnick: For those telling me that I forgot Kwame Brown -- yes, I forgot Kwame Brown. about 21 minutes ago
   2728. Fourth True Outcome Posted: January 24, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4044680)
I would love to watch that team.
   2729. Famous Original Joe C Posted: January 24, 2012 at 06:06 PM (#4044750)
Alvaro Martin: NBA-TV: #AveryBradley said #JameerNelson told him last night "Don't pick me up, don't pick me up" as he crossed midcourt to go on offense. about 8 minutes ago

Trying to parse out what he meant by this - "please go away, you are a pain to have guarding me?"
   2730. Fourth True Outcome Posted: January 24, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4044769)
There’s a moment in the game when Avery Bradley knows he has done what he set out to accomplish. It happens when the man he’s guarding starts to talk to him. Sometimes he tells him to back off, give him some room. Other times he tell Bradley that he doesn’t have to pick up fullcourt all the time.

“When they start talking to me like that,” Bradley said. “That’s when I know I got them.”

How often does he hear it?

“Everybody says it to me,” he said. “Everybody.”

From Paul Flannery's article on the C's D last night.

I don't know if Bradley is ever going to develop a shot good enough to be the new Bruce Bowen, but watching him D point guards up is electrifying.
   2731. steagles Posted: January 24, 2012 at 07:10 PM (#4044859)
KC Johnson: FWIW, Deng told 2 teammates he hasn't ruled out trying to play Sunday vs. Heat. #Bulls 4 minutes ago

Ira Winderman: Erik Spoelstra says Dwyane Wade will travel to Wednesday's game in Detroit even with sprained right ankle. about 11 minutes ago

Joseph Goodman: Wade is traveling to Detroit with the Heat but his status remains doubtful. 1 minute ago





also, i believe the new series of "the association" debuts at 6PM tomorrow on NBATV, focusing on the denver nuggets.
   2732. Fourth True Outcome Posted: January 24, 2012 at 07:51 PM (#4044914)
Between DRose playing on his injured toe and Deng not ruling out playing Sunday, does it seem to anyone else like the Bulls are playing with a bit of fire with injuries? I appreciate the grit they're showing, but given the pounding of this season and the relative sureness of the Bulls' playoff position, wouldn't it be smarter to err on the side of making sure guys aren't risking aggravating something, even if it means losing them for a few games extra?
   2733. madvillain Posted: January 24, 2012 at 08:02 PM (#4044933)
Between DRose playing on his injured toe and Deng not ruling out playing Sunday, does it seem to anyone else like the Bulls are playing with a bit of fire with injuries? I appreciate the grit they're showing, but given the pounding of this season and the relative sureness of the Bulls' playoff position, wouldn't it be smarter to err on the side of making sure guys aren't risking aggravating something, even if it means losing them for a few games extra?


This topic is burning up the Bulls Internets and the beat guys are starting to question Thibs on it as well. The Bulls were up 17 with about six minutes left last night. Noah, playing on a bit of a tweaked ankle, an ankle that kept him out the previous game, was inserted back into the game. Asked about it, Noah laughed and said, "You never know with Thibs".

I don't think the players are worried about, they have bought what Thib's is selling, and why not? The Bulls are simply running roughshod over everyone. Since last December they have played (I could be wrong on the specifics I read this last night on the forums) the Heat, Thunder, Mavs, Lakers and Magic 13 times -- they have won all 13 of those games.

That's pretty amazing.

I am a bit concerned they should hold Rose out longer, but whatever. If Rose says he's good to go he's good to go. I think it's something to keep an eye on, but the injuries they have had so far are just due to bad luck. Deng banged his wrist on the rim, Rose got his toe stepped on, Rip is old and groin strains hit older guys (yep, I went there) and Gibby and Noah turned ankles, the most common basketball injury.
   2734. steagles Posted: January 24, 2012 at 08:10 PM (#4044943)
[Josh Robbins] Josh Robbins: The #Orlando #Magic will not pick up their 2012-13 team option on Daniel Orton: http://ht.ly/8F9TV. He will be an UFA in July. now

Al Iannazzone: Josh Harrellson had surgery on his wrist, expected to miss six weeks. 1 minute ago


Since last December they have played (I could be wrong on the specifics I read this last night on the forums) the Heat, Thunder, Mavs, Lakers and Magic 13 times -- they have won all 13 of those games.
but how many times have they played the sixers?
   2735. Sean Forman Posted: January 24, 2012 at 10:19 PM (#4045055)
Basketball-Reference: every game in NBA history

Just a heads up that basketball-reference.com launched scans of every NBA box score ever. Many of them are just things like FGM, FTM-FTA, Pts, but it's still every game in NBA history. At some point in the future we may get them digitized.
   2736. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 24, 2012 at 10:30 PM (#4045060)
So Knicks blow out the Bobcats with Melo scoring only 1 point.
   2737. rr Posted: January 24, 2012 at 11:10 PM (#4045096)
they have won all 13 of those games.


Uhh, OK, but all that matters to the Bulls at this point is beating Miami four times. That is a compliment. And last year they didn't come close.

electrifying.


Heh.
   2738. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: January 25, 2012 at 12:31 AM (#4045172)
Uhh, OK, but all that matters to the Bulls at this point is beating Miami four times. That is a compliment. And last year they didn't come close.

They most certainly did come close. Trailing 2-1 in game four, they missed a shot on the final possession of regulation that would've tied the series, then had a late lead in game five erased by a miraculous series of heaves by shitty 3-point shooters.

The Boston series followed almost that exact script, by the way. The notion that the Vinegar Trio somehow breezed through the Eastern Conference last year really needs to be put to bed.
   2739. rr Posted: January 25, 2012 at 12:42 AM (#4045185)
They most certainly did come close.


Closer than 4-1 might indicate at face value, perhaps, but Miami was clearly the better team in a short series--they contained Rose pretty well, and if you can do that, the Bulls have a lot of trouble scoring. Boston couldn't score enough either, particularly in crunch time. Miami closed them out with a 16-0 run in Game 5, IIRC.

The Bulls may have done a wise thing in adding Hamilton in terms of that matchup. Wade has often had difficulty chasing guys around screens and Allen has given him trouble. I assume Thibodeau was aware of this and that was one reason Chicago wanted Hamilton.

   2740. rr Posted: January 25, 2012 at 12:53 AM (#4045193)
Looking at BaskRef, Miami beat Boston by 9, 11, 8, and 10, and lost by 9.

Chicago blew Miami out the one time they beat them, 103-82, a game I remember well. Miami won by 10, 11, 3 and 8 in OT.
   2741. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: January 25, 2012 at 11:12 AM (#4045377)
[2740] My memory of the series may be off, and I look forward to being corrected, but it seemed as though the teams were evenly matched except when MIA chose to put LeBron on Rose. This was usually in the closing minutes of games and this usually resulted in Rose not being able to create offense which meant the Bulls as a whole had no offense. So, I think the series was closer than 4-1 would indicate but I also think MIA has a hell of a weapon, if necessary, in that matchup. Of course, it remains to be seen what effect, if any, Hamilton's presence will have.
   2742. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: January 25, 2012 at 12:00 PM (#4045411)
Right, the only game in the series that wasn't close was the game 1 Bulls blowout win. I don't think you'll get any Bulls fans (at least not here) saying the Bulls were the better team, but because all of the games were winnable (or close to winnable), it was a frustrating way to lose the series. In addition to LeBron's defense on Rose (and the help trapping by Wade and Bosh), LeBron hit a high percentage of his hero shots - and #### like that happens. But that run robin mentioned is 2739 was mostly LeBron pull up and fadeaways that are undefendable (and not the best shots).

Between DRose playing on his injured toe and Deng not ruling out playing Sunday, does it seem to anyone else like the Bulls are playing with a bit of fire with injuries? I appreciate the grit they're showing, but given the pounding of this season and the relative sureness of the Bulls' playoff position, wouldn't it be smarter to err on the side of making sure guys aren't risking aggravating something, even if it means losing them for a few games extra?

I also mentioned this at the bottom of the last page. Yes, they most definitely are, but that's the mindset that Thibs has with the team and it's definitely made a difference in their performance both individually and as a team. I can't blame this Deng injury on that mentality (or Rose's initial hurting of his toe), but it is most definitely a risk that we'll have to see how it turns out come playoff time.
   2743. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: January 25, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4045477)
Gallo reportedly signed for 4/40.
   2744. rr Posted: January 25, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4045482)
But that run robin mentioned is 2739 was mostly LeBron pull up and fadeaways that are undefendable (and not the best shots).


You may know this, but that particular run was against Boston, not Chicago, and the point was more that Boston didn't score at all for about four minutes with the game and the era on the line.

As to the "heroshot" thing, a couple of points:

1. The last three champs have all benefited from some unusual/lucky shooting performances in post-season from 3. If the Bulls win it this year, I would be willing to bet Rose makes some heroshots at big moments and someone like Korver or Watson gets hot in the post-season.
2. Guys who make heroball shots make them in part because of who they are and their skillsets. That doesn't make them high percentage shots, but it isn't just luck, either. One reason James is James and Wade is Wade is because they can make amazing shots sometimes. Same with a few other players.
   2745. andrewberg Posted: January 25, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4045510)
Gallo reportedly signed for 4/40.


Seems like a good deal. I think he's worth about 10 right now, and he has a chance to get even better. If he remains what he is, they're still going to be a competitive team over the life of that deal with a core of him, Nene, Lawson, and the solid supporting cast they have built.
   2746. Jimmy P Posted: January 25, 2012 at 01:58 PM (#4045520)
Primer retweet:

@ESPNSteinLine: Wolves' Kevin Love will sign new contract after AM shootaround, sources say.
   2747. andrewberg Posted: January 25, 2012 at 02:01 PM (#4045523)
Whew. I'll be checking for the years, but I'm guessing they caved and went to 5.
   2748. Jimmy P Posted: January 25, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4045527)
Whew. I'll be checking for the years, but I'm guessing they caved and went to 5.


Broussard is reporting 4 years, $60 million, but Love has the opportunity (read: he will) to opt out after three years.
   2749. andrewberg Posted: January 25, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4045528)
It says here it's a 4 year extension with an opt-out after the third year. Works for me. If the team is good by then, he'll stick around. If they're bad, it will be time to blow it up anyway.
   2750. Jimmy P Posted: January 25, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4045542)
I think the Wolves did a good job. I'm not sure Love's a max guy, and I know he didn't have the leverage to force it. This is what restricted free agency is supposed to do, and Kahn played it really well. Now they get three years to convince him that Rubio and Adelman are worth sticking around.
   2751. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: January 25, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4045556)
I think the Wolves did a good job. I'm not sure Love's a max guy, and I know he didn't have the leverage to force it. This is what restricted free agency is supposed to do, and Kahn played it really well. Now they get three years to convince him that Rubio and Adelman are worth sticking around.

They did a good job if they can keep improving. If not, they lose him a year early and get nothing for him.
   2752. Jimmy P Posted: January 25, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4045562)
They did a good job if they can keep improving. If not, they lose him a year early and get nothing out of it.

On this point, I agree with Berg. If they don't keep improving in three years, then it's time for him to go anyway. That'd be five (or six?) years he's there. If they can't build a playoff team around him in that time, he's not a franchise guy, and they'll need to start over.

   2753. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: January 25, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4045572)
Or it's Kahn's fault, and not Love's.
   2754. andrewberg Posted: January 25, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4045576)
Or it's Kahn's fault, and not Love's.


If the Rubio/Love era doesn't produce a couple of 45 win seasons by then, Taylor will hit the reset button on Kahn anyway.
   2755. steagles Posted: January 25, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4045577)
from hollinger:

• Philadelphia will win the Atlantic. The Sixers are 4½ games up on Boston with 49 left to play, but the reason they project as such a lock has more to do with how they're playing than where they are in the standings. Philly is the lone Atlantic team in the top half of the Power Rankings, at No. 2, and wins the division in 98.8 percent of scenarios. Those are by far the best division-winning odds of any team at the moment, even better than those of the Bulls.

The Sixers also project to beat out Miami for the East's No. 2 seed; while that projection seems a bit rosy, it does show they're likely to remain relevant in the East race all season. And print those playoff tickets, Sixers: Philly is one of two teams (along with Chicago) that shows 100 percent odds of making the postseason. (Technical note: A team could miss up to twice in our 5,000 scenarios and still show up at 100.0 percent due to rounding.)
   2756. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: January 25, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4045594)
STEAGLES doesn't know that as a Philadelphia sports fan, you tiptoe around the good times. The sports gods are very vengeful towards Philadelphia.
   2757. andrewberg Posted: January 25, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4045596)
Nah, the whole team would have been struck down several pages ago.
   2758. Jimmy P Posted: January 25, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4045601)
Or it's Kahn's fault, and not Love's.


If he's a max player, then he'll have won more. At some point, Love's going to have to be more than a "good stats on bad team guy" to really be considered a max player. The true max players improve their teams records. Even Bosh at least got his team into the playoffs.

I'm pro player, but all year everyone complains about how GMs overpay players and are dumb. Here, a GM used his leverage well and paid market rate for a guy, and now we're killing him for that. I guess I just don't see where anyone ever wins here.
   2759. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: January 25, 2012 at 03:43 PM (#4045608)
andrew, those gods are just stringing STEAGLES along big time. You'll see, 30 point 3rd period lead over the Miami Hate, up 3-0 and poof! The gods will prick that balloon so fast. The Hate rally to up 1, AI2 misses a pair of free throws with .01 on the clock to lose Game 4. Game 5, Brand literally falls apart on the court, Hawes' back goes haywire, Jodie Meeks goes 0-12 from 3. Then it's all downhill from there.
   2760. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: January 25, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4045616)
I'm pro player, but all year everyone complains about how GMs overpay players and are dumb. Here, a GM used his leverage well and paid market rate for a guy, and now we're killing him for that. I guess I just don't see where anyone ever wins here.

IMO, you don't hold the line on the centerpiece players. Obviously, our disagreement is rooted in our differing evaluations of Love, so it's probably not worth belaboring the point. The Wolves are still paying him the max amount of money they can, but just for one fewer year (actually, 2, since he'll opt out either way and he'll either get more money in year 4 or just leave). So either he's worth the money or he's not, and the Wolves are trying to straddle the middle and risking alienating him.
   2761. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: January 25, 2012 at 04:12 PM (#4045621)
By the way, Forbes' team valuations are out. Once again, I will point out the Bulls lofty position in these rankings (#3 in franchise value at $600mil and #2 in operating income at $59mil), but will note I saw the other day that the Bulls are $700k from the luxury tax line and have no intention of hitting that this year. In the past, Reinsdorf has said he would pay the tax for a winner, he is so far failing this test. Part of the reason Kurt Thomas* is in Portland and not Chicago this season is because of this, and it's also why Brian Scalabrine and John Lucas are the 12th and 13th guys on the roster (and Mike James is 14th, but only because of their injury problems; they have no intention of using all 15 roster spots). Bulls will likely lead the league in attendance yet again, are 2nd in local TV ratings (to the Lakers), but Jerry is pocketing what amounts to pocket change compared to how much money he's squeezed out of this cash cow. It's infuriating when I think about it for too long.

*Scal was the first big off the bench for the 2nd straight game (I'm not sure why he came in before Asik, but it happened), and he doesn't ever deserve seeing the floor, period. A 5th competent big is a luxury, for sure, but it was one the Bulls pissed away for no reason besides Jerry being cheap as ####.
   2762. andrewberg Posted: January 25, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4045651)
he'll opt out either way and he'll either get more money in year 4 or just leave)


I think he'd have to stay on the 7.5% pa raise structure under either deal. It would just be a question of guaranteed years.
   2763. steagles Posted: January 25, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4045675)
STEAGLES doesn't know that as a Philadelphia sports fan, you tiptoe around the good times. The sports gods are very vengeful towards Philadelphia.
i don't subscribe to all that "negadelphian" bullshit. if the sixers play as well as they have been, i'm gonna enjoy it.

   2764. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: January 25, 2012 at 05:34 PM (#4045687)
Rr, Abbott wrote about Melo today. (He also wrote about Kobe again, so...yeah)
   2765. rr Posted: January 25, 2012 at 05:52 PM (#4045702)
NJ-

Well, progress.

Also, David Thorpe, whom Abbott quotes there, is wrong. The Lakers are losing because of a serious lack of talent on the perimeter, because Gasol is getting older and is being somewhat misused, because they still have Triangle players and no Triangle, and because they gave away Lamar Odom for nothing. Abbott jumped on it because, as LAAFP once said, there are simply a lot of guys out there who have a deep need to tell themselves that when the Lakers lose, it's because Kobe is a selfish a-hole, and these guys ignore the rest of the context when they "analyze" the Lakers. Working backward from a conclusion is seldom a good way to approach understanding a problem.

It's pretty clear that Gasol misses Odom and the Triangle--they were a nice pairing on the floor, and even by good-team standards, almost always had good +/- numbers. Odom's size, passing and face-up game made him and Gasol, both good Triangle big men to begin with, a good match.
   2766. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: January 25, 2012 at 07:38 PM (#4045771)
Also, David Thorpe, whom Abbott quotes there, is wrong. The Lakers are losing because of a serious lack of talent on the perimeter, because Gasol is getting older and is being somewhat misused, because they still have Triangle players and no Triangle, and because they gave away Lamar Odom for nothing. Abbott jumped on it because, as LAAFP once said, there are simply a lot of guys out there who have a deep need to tell themselves that when the Lakers lose, it's because Kobe is a selfish a-hole, and these guys ignore the rest of the context when they "analyze" the Lakers. Working backward from a conclusion is seldom a good way to approach understanding a problem.

I don't know what part of Thorpe's article (insider) Abbott quoted (and I'm not giving him the pageclicks to find out). But I think that, along with the title of the article, misstate Thorpe's piece. I don't think Thorpe is trying to say why the Lakers are losing, but to see if Gasol has a point when he complains about his use in the offense.
Is Gasol's criticism warranted? Or is he the problem? With the help of high-level metrics and game footage, we can quickly ferret out the truth.


I don't know if you meant this comment to be about Thorpe or Abbott - "Working backward from a conclusion is seldom a good way to approach understanding a problem." - but IMO, it doesn't apply to Thorpe's piece. Examples of what I mean:

It seems clear that it's not the system that has to change, but rather Bryant's shot selection, for Gasol to get more of the kind of touches he prefers.


It is obvious that Gasol is not hunting for paint touches or left-block post-ups in quite the same way he has in seasons past. And Bryant is definitely looking for his shot far more than last season, especially from the perimeter. Why? Only Bryant and Gasol know, but this is certainly not what Mike Brown wants. Perhaps he is hoping that over time he can persuade Bryant to get the ball inside more to Gasol, or Andrew Bynum (who, incidentally, is getting more paint touches this season).
   2767. madvillain Posted: January 25, 2012 at 07:45 PM (#4045779)
Can't agree Moses. Scal and JLIII have proven to be legit backups so far. If it comes time to sign Asik and Gibson and JR refuses to go over the tax with a team that is obviously a contender, than I will jump to the front of the ######## about JR line.
   2768. rr Posted: January 25, 2012 at 08:21 PM (#4045804)
You're cutting Thorpe too much slack. He watched tape of one game, focusing on one thing, and claims that he can "quickly ferret out the truth." He's wrong; he can't. Also, the reason that the article is being run in the first place is that....the Lakers are losing. Here is how Thorpe starts it off:

For sure, blaming the new guy is the common thing to do when greatness falters, which is why it's so difficult to follow a legend. And Jackson is certainly one of the biggest legends in American sports because he is the most successful coach in NBA history. So Brown had to know coming into the job that, short of absolute dominance, criticism was coming.


In explaining why Gasol is getting fewer touches down low, Thorpe ignores the fact that one reason is that Gasol spends more time in the high post now...because Odom is gone. Bynum's touches are up, as Thorpe notes. The basic problem the Lakers have is that they don't have 3-pt shooters or playmakers. The Triangle covered that up to a large degree; this system doesn't, and it affects the team's ability to get good shots. Thorpe assumes, like Abbott and Berri do, that the Lakers can just dump the ball inside any time they want and get great shots, but they don't, because Kobe is Kobe. He's wrong. Pau doesn't seal that well (Thorpe acknowledges this, but breezes by it); Bynum has all kinds of trouble with anyone his size (like Hibbert) and is a lousy passer; teams can pack the paint against the Lakers and shade/double Kobe, and Kobe is only a B- passer and not a PG. So...he winds up doing what he does best: shooting the damn ball, as he likes to say. The Lakers offense will continue to struggle until/unless they replace Derek Fisher and Steve Blake and get better backups than Jason Kapono and Metta World Peace, no matter what Kobe does. We have already seen games and parts of games this year in which Kobe didn't shoot much and the team struggled horribly. The shot distribution in the first half of the Orlando game was 10/8/7 for Pau, Kobe, Bynum--and the Lakers scored 31 points. OK, there is only one D12, but that has happened all year. But of course, Thorpe didn't watch THAT tape, and Abbott has yet to mention that game at all.

Pau's USG is down from 21.8 to 20.0--not a huge difference. Thorpe apparently wants it up around 25 or 26, but I realy doubt that Pau's EFG could hold at that USG level. It has dropped this year, even with a lower USG.

For once, I wish these guys would just come out and say it: "I think if Kobe cut his USG from 39 to 32, the Lakers would be 13-5, and here's why I think so."


And if you think Thorpe isn't looking to put this on Kobe:

It would be easy to knock Bryant for launching so many contested shots, and it's clear there are ample sets where Bryant elects to shoot a tough jump shot. But Bryant is simply never called out on it. Shooting guards on other teams would immediately be tasked by their coach with passing up those contested shots and instead finding their big man -- especially one with Gasol's ability -- in the paint.





   2769. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: January 25, 2012 at 08:29 PM (#4045810)
Can't agree Moses. Scal and JLIII have proven to be legit backups so far. If it comes time to sign Asik and Gibson and JR refuses to go over the tax with a team that is obviously a contender, than I will jump to the front of the ######## about JR line.

So you're saying this year's 16.5 PER and 15.6 PER, respectively, mean more than the 7.6 and 12.0 career numbers (and JLIII's is inflated due to such few chances so far), in a manner of speaking (and to use just one metric, one that happens to ignore the negative value both have defensively)? Just because they had a couple of good games doesn't change the fact that both are complete and total scrubs, with virtually no upside or quantifiable value, or should I say no expected future value*. Scal is making almost a mil, if he were dumped they could have easily fit in Thomas' deal without going over the tax line (plus the ####### moron fans wouldn't be able to chant for him every game, which is just flat out embarrassing). I have zero confidence that either of them can duplicate what they've already done in games this year in the next game or any future game, and especially against real competition. The fact that both have had to play non-garbage minutes should not have been a complete surprise considering the schedule, and it's only thanks to a miracle that the Bulls haven't regretted it yet. Perhaps having real backups even allows Thibs to ease on the breaks a little on everyone else's minutes (though that's probably just me wishcasting, as Thibs doesn't know what that means, god bless him).

I may not even get upset at them not signing Taj (he won't be worth whatever he gets), even if they're only doing it to be cheap it might be the right decision. But Jerry's failed his first chance (actually, he's failed many before out of being cheap, even admitting he was probably right on most of those counts) with this team on the Scal/Thomas decision (and the subsequent decision not to fortify any further simply because of money).

Of course, in the grand scheme of things, this is a relatively minor problem. But considering the hundreds of millions of dollars he's pocketed over the years (or wasted on guys like Adam Dunn), I'm incredibly touchy whenever I'm reminded of this subject.

*If either one steps on the court for a playoff game, I'm going to lose my ####### mind.
   2770. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: January 25, 2012 at 08:31 PM (#4045812)
Chicago Bulls forward Luol Deng, sidelined with torn ligaments in his left wrist, will return to the lineup within a week, a source close to him told Yahoo! Sports.

Deng is expected to play against conference rival Miami on Sunday, the source said.

The Chicago Tribune reported that Deng has been telling teammates he plans to play Sunday, but the organization has been more cautious about his outlook. Doctors told Deng he ultimately needs surgery on his left wrist – which isn’t his shooting hand – and that it could sideline him for three to four months.


Thibs isn't going to keep him from playing if he wants to...
   2771. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: January 25, 2012 at 08:39 PM (#4045815)
You're cutting Thorpe too much slack.

Are you're overly sensitive to that type of criticism. I don't recall Thorpe having any sort of history of criticizing Kobe, so I don't see him coming into that piece with any sort of anti-Kobe bias. I totally read that last quote you use differently (as in, "The easy way is calling Kobe out, but there's more to it than that; similar to how early in the piece he also says it's easy to call out the new coach). He does overstate the one game piece, but the shot chart data is in there too. And I see no conclusion where he puts it all on Kobe, or that he even says the losing is because Gasol is getting fewer low post chances (regardless of the reason).

Thorpe has said on numerous other occasions that it's a coaching league, so if I'm going to read anything into that article that's not explicitly stated it's a criticism of Mike Brown.
   2772. Into the Void Posted: January 25, 2012 at 08:52 PM (#4045821)
RE: Kobe...I was a teenager when Jordan was winning his championships, and obviously the media was different back then, but did he ever get as much grief as Kobe does for his shot selection? I remember plenty of poor shooting nights from Jordan but don't recall seeing too many articles trying to explain why he should shoot less. It just seems insane to me that people are constantly dogging one of the greatest scorers in the history of basketball for shooting too much while complaining about Gasol's attempts being down because of it (down a whopping one shot per game). I'm not even a Kobe fan or anything but the whole thing just makes no sense to me...I mean, Henry Abbott actually wrote this:

A question for Laker fans: Is it good or bad when Kobe Bryant goes rogue and shoots a ton? The answer seems to be: Good when the shots go in. But, of course, that's not fair. Drunk drivers often get home safely, you know? But what you have to judge is not the outcome, but the process, the decision-making. Getting behind the wheel is dumb, we have decided as a culture, whether you get into an accident or not. So ... what about ballhogging by Bryant?



Seriously...he's comparing a guy with five championship rings and who is sixth on the NBA's all time leading scorer list (at the age of 33) with a drunk driver? I mean that is the most amateur, vendetta-driven drivel I've read in a long time.
   2773. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: January 25, 2012 at 09:37 PM (#4045840)
but did he ever get as much grief as Kobe does for his shot selection?

Are you forgetting that Michael Jordan made all of his shots?

Most MJ grief went away once he started winning titles. He still had a couple of detractors (the "MJ Rules" stuff would come up here and there) but he was pretty much immune to criticism once they started winning. And rightfully so for the most part. The primary difference, I think, is that MJ just wasn't polarizing like Kobe is. Just about everyone loved him, or at least, had tremendous respect for his game. Even people like me- who absolutely hated him while he was playing- didn't try to pretend he was less of a player than he was. (And we all wore his shoes, if we could get them.) Kobe sentiment doesn't work like that.

MJ was a better player than Kobe, but Kobe is pretty obviously a better media topic. They just can't get enough.
   2774. rr Posted: January 25, 2012 at 09:51 PM (#4045852)
I don't recall Thorpe having any sort of history of criticizing Kobe, so I don't see him coming into that piece with any sort of anti-Kobe bias.


Ask yourself a question: why did Abbott link and focus on it? So he could go after Mike Brown?

And, yeah, I am sick of it--or "overly sensitive" if you like. Looking at the Lakers right now and zooming in on Kobe's shot selection, without looking at anything else in any detail is, in and of itself, bias by omission, whatever Thorpe's history may be.
   2775. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: January 25, 2012 at 09:51 PM (#4045854)
but did he ever get as much grief as Kobe does for his shot selection?

Are you forgetting that Michael Jordan made all of his shots?


I know this was a joke, but MJ did have a career FG% slightly above .500 prior to those last two years in Washington.
   2776. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: January 25, 2012 at 09:59 PM (#4045858)
I know this was a joke, but MJ did have a career FG% slightly above .500 prior to those last two years in Washington.

I'd shoot over 50% too if you called a foul after every miss.;)
   2777. rr Posted: January 25, 2012 at 10:03 PM (#4045860)
I mean that is the most amateur, vendetta-driven drivel I've read in a long time.


It would be OK if Abbott would just admit he hates Kobe, or if Abbott just wrote for a Blazers blog (he is from POR and is a huge Blazers fan).

>>>I know this was a joke, but MJ did have a career FG% slightly above .500 prior to those last two years in Washington.


Really? Never heard a KobeHater point that out before. ;-

Good example of why the whole thing goes on and on. My posts are as well, of course--but it has always been a two-way thing. Abbott proves that.

   2778. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 25, 2012 at 10:44 PM (#4045878)
I know this was a joke, but MJ did have a career FG% slightly above .500 prior to those last two years in Washington.

I'd shoot over 50% too if you called a foul after every miss.;)


>high five<

In "The Jordan Rules", one player (I forget who) talked about how MJ would slap his thigh with his left hand as he went up with his right. The refs would hear the slap and automatically give MJ a whistle.

_______


Mike Brown on PTI today was asked about Bryant's shooting, and he referred to the Pacers game, saying that when the Pacers started doubling Bryant ("six or seven times" was the count) he made the correct pass each time. Brown essentially said that the bigs weren't aggressive enough running to the basket.

Everyone's initial impression of Bryant was made during those early days when he insisted on taking that last airball against Utah or waving off Mailman's pick in the ASG at 19. Even now, he might take some seemingly ridiculous shot once or thrice a game, and everyone will point to that as proof he's a selfish drunk driver of a player. I don't know what it is about Bryant that makes people forget he's been a stone-cold scoring machine who for nearly a decade and a half routinely figures among the annual leaders in assist percentage by non-PGs (Bryant is 3rd among non-PGs so far this season).

Bryant's massive USG% this season speaks to a very simple fact: That offense doesn't move when he's not driving it. This goes back — again — to the idea of having a great shooting guard be the main facilitator for the offense, then blaming that shooting guard for, well, shooting. In essence, Bryant is being blamed, again and again, for not being Magic Johnson.
   2779. madvillain Posted: January 25, 2012 at 10:53 PM (#4045883)
In "The Jordan Rules", one player (I forget who) talked about how MJ would slap his thigh with his left hand as he went up with his right. The refs would hear the slap and automatically give MJ a whistle.


Not disputing Jordan got his share of calls, but this is just heresy. Also, defenders were allowed to hand check on the perimeter for most of Jordan's prime.

_________

Typical ugly game between Pacers and Bulls. I really hate the Pacers, they give Chicago trouble, for some reason the refs always hold the whistle in these games, which is a big advantage for the Pacers.

Pacers up 1 with about 11 left. Bulls blew a 10 point halftime lead in the 3rd. Outside of Rose and Brewer, nobody is playing that well.
   2780. rr Posted: January 25, 2012 at 10:58 PM (#4045885)
I don't know what it is about Bryant


Heh. Yeah we do, buddy. People in all walks of life have trouble separating the visceral, the aesthetic, and the analytical.
   2781. rr Posted: January 25, 2012 at 11:00 PM (#4045891)
. Also, defenders were allowed to hand check on the perimeter for most of Jordan's prime.


Matt, how many times on this thread have the Lakers fans said Jordan was better than Kobe--including Donde about five posts ago?
   2782. madvillain Posted: January 25, 2012 at 11:10 PM (#4045897)
Matt, how many times on this thread have the Lakers fans said Jordan was better than Kobe--including Donde about five posts ago?


Dunno, don't care, was simply talking about Mike wrt to history, era, and such without specific relevance to Kobe v. Mike.
   2783. rr Posted: January 25, 2012 at 11:22 PM (#4045904)

Dunno, don't care, was simply talking about Mike wrt to history, era, and such without specific relevance to Kobe v. Mike.


Heresy, indeed.
   2784. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 25, 2012 at 11:26 PM (#4045909)
What this threads need is a discussion on how MJ pretty clearly pushed off against Russell.
   2785. rr Posted: January 25, 2012 at 11:30 PM (#4045912)
What this threads need is a discussion on how MJ pretty clearly pushed off against Russell.


Well-played. My point being--we all have our "overly sensitive" spots.

I am hoping the Lakers call up Elijah Millsap from the DLeague to back up the Mamba pretty soon. He can't be worse than Kapono or Goudelock and you gotta like the gene pool.
   2786. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: January 25, 2012 at 11:34 PM (#4045914)
####### Scalabrine.
   2787. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: January 25, 2012 at 11:43 PM (#4045918)
What this threads need is a discussion on how MJ pretty clearly pushed off against Russell.

Which time?

this is just heresy

No, this is heresy. Do you know why they called him "Air" Jordan? Because that's who kept fouling him.

I see my team coming up big tonight!



   2788. Quaker Posted: January 26, 2012 at 12:42 AM (#4045945)
Millsap game tying three with under 5 seconds to go. Averaging 22+ of late.
   2789. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 26, 2012 at 12:45 AM (#4045947)
Kobe needs some lessons from Millsap on hero ball. :)

I am hoping the Lakers call up Elijah Millsap from the DLeague to back up the Mamba pretty soon. He can't be worse than Kapono or Goudelock and you gotta like the gene pool.


I'd love to see it. It'd be bittersweet to see him help the Lakers, but another Millsap blowing away expectations would be fantastic.
   2790. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 26, 2012 at 12:46 AM (#4045948)
Which time?


Ha! I like the cut of your jib sir.
   2791. Quaker Posted: January 26, 2012 at 12:51 AM (#4045950)
Hayward ####### blows.
   2792. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 26, 2012 at 12:55 AM (#4045954)
Hayward ####### blows.


Why Miles hasn't been in is beyond me. Corbin's made some weird decisions today keeping Hayward and Watson in for far too long.
   2793. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 26, 2012 at 01:04 AM (#4045959)
I can't believe they lost to Toronto at home. Horrendous games by Corbin and Hayward, and Harris blew whatever good will he earned clunking those free throws.
   2794. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 26, 2012 at 01:57 AM (#4045971)
Meta World Peace is have about as massive a game as a player can have scoring only 3 points and grabbing 5 boards. The Lakers have a slim lead, 3 minutes left, playing a very strange game.
   2795. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 26, 2012 at 02:03 AM (#4045974)
What this threads need is a discussion on how MJ pretty clearly pushed off against Russell.
I blame myself. I dared to say something about Jordan without his dick in my mouth.
   2796. Spivey Posted: January 26, 2012 at 02:09 AM (#4045978)
It is important to note that the Sixers lost to the Nets. Milwaukee also ended the Rockets' 7 game winning streak, despite playing most of the game without Bogut who sprained his ankle early.
   2797. Quaker Posted: January 26, 2012 at 02:13 AM (#4045979)
Yeah, this is one we should have had. I guess being without Jefferson does hurt. If the Jazz got anything from their wings on a consistent basis they could probably contend for the conference crown.

I want to like Hayward--liked Butler, seems like a nice kid--but I just don't think he's going to put it all together. Paul George was probably the pick there.

I may be pessimistic but I think it's 50-50 at best that they slip into the playoffs. Hopefully we get the GS pick this year (top 7 protected). As of right now, Hollinger's projections have it as a coin flip whether or not it would wind up top 7.
   2798. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 26, 2012 at 02:51 AM (#4045984)
I blame myself. I dared to say something about Jordan without his dick in my mouth.


I'm pretty sure that would have been called a foul.
   2799. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: January 26, 2012 at 03:13 AM (#4045987)
Yeah, this is one we should have had. I guess being without Jefferson does hurt. If the Jazz got anything from their wings on a consistent basis they could probably contend for the conference crown.

I want to like Hayward--liked Butler, seems like a nice kid--but I just don't think he's going to put it all together. Paul George was probably the pick there.

I may be pessimistic but I think it's 50-50 at best that they slip into the playoffs. Hopefully we get the GS pick this year (top 7 protected). As of right now, Hollinger's projections have it as a coin flip whether or not it would wind up top 7.


I loved what I saw from Hayward at the end of last season, but he's back to playing like he has no idea what to do. I get a lot of nervous vibes from him this year -- he's passed up plenty of open shots, and rarely looks comfortable when he does shoot. He has enough athleticism and talent to start in the NBA, but not enough that he can be at all deficient in basketball IQ or confidence. At least Hayward will get the chance to prove us wrong since he will continue to get plenty of minutes with this roster.

I've really liked what I've seen from Burks the little he's played. He looks like he can be a good scorer that can create his own shot and has enough athleticism to be a good defender. I'm not sure about his outside shot or passing, but that just makes Hayward's awful play even more disappointing since they could compliment each other so well if they pan out.

I think that's about right for their playoff chances. I'm fine with that since I expected them to be awful, so even a shot at the playoffs is a nice bonus (especially since they're not bad enough to have a shot at the #1). The only negative to that would be losing their 1st round pick to the Wolves, especially if the Warriors get a top 7 pick. The Jazz have had a lot of home games already and some luck facing weakened teams. Any of the Jazz, Wolves, Rockets, or Grizzlies taking the 8th seed wouldn't surprise me.
   2800. smileyy Posted: January 26, 2012 at 03:22 AM (#4045988)
I wonder how much handcheck rules drove Jordan to a high post game.
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