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Friday, December 02, 2011

NBA THREAD DECEMBER: POST-LOCKOUT

With the lockout over, I estimate that there may be more than 10-12 Primates who want to talk about the NBA, and with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: fractional reserve banking, and Tim Tebow.

robinred Posted: December 02, 2011 at 12:26 AM | 3254 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: general

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   3101. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: January 31, 2012 at 08:17 PM (#4050758)
re: FT shooting,

i think arm length and hand size is also an issue that affects consistency. with more length comes more movement, and the more movement there is, the greater the chance to get out of sync.

i could be wrong, but i believe that's been the explanation used to defend rajon rondo's poor FT shooting.


   3102. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: January 31, 2012 at 08:25 PM (#4050762)
The physics of the underhand ft shot might be a little better, but if 7'6" Yao Ming can shoot 85% and 7' Dirk Nowitzki can shoot 90% overhand, the traditional method seems like it can work just fine even for tall players. It also seems like it should be easier to learn because it is so similar to their regular shot mechanics.


I think this may be more important than it's given credit for. I can easily see how shooting free throws underhand would totally break your rhythm. Now, this may be total junk and we don't have any real data on whether this is true, but it doesn't seem impossible.
   3103. robinred Posted: January 31, 2012 at 08:39 PM (#4050770)
Do you consider it a burn when the crazy man on the street corner yells at the voices in his head?


Uncalled for.
   3104. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: January 31, 2012 at 08:48 PM (#4050776)
Uncalled for.


Come on, that was funny. :)
   3105. Zipperholes Posted: January 31, 2012 at 09:37 PM (#4050812)
Andrew [3097]:
I do not mean to say that all of these guys should refuse to try underhand free throws. In fact, I have always thought it would be a good experiment for a guy like Dwight. Still, I am in the skeptical camp in which I think the presumption ought to be that it will not make a bad shooter a good one. It might happen, but I won't bank on it.
You're talking about whether you think it would work=. That's not the point. The point is they refuse to even try. Why? Because vanity and stubbornness rules over personal and team improvement.
It's hard to find a perfect analog for the FT thing because Dwight, Shaq, etc are excellent players who are abjectly bad at one facet of the game that is only tangentially connected to the rest of the sport, and maybe even at odds with what makes them dominant (raw power).
It's not tangentially connected to the rest of the sport. It's directly connected, because this single deficiency often dominates both teams' strategy and personnel, particularly in the highest leverage situations. Also, I don't see how changing his approach to FT shooting would affect Dwight Howard's powerful rebounding.
   3106. Zipperholes Posted: January 31, 2012 at 09:45 PM (#4050817)
The physics of the underhand ft shot might be a little better, but if 7'6" Yao Ming can shoot 85% and 7' Dirk Nowitzki can shoot 90% overhand, the traditional method seems like it can work just fine even for tall players. It also seems like it should be easier to learn because it is so similar to their regular shot mechanics.

Often times the guys that really struggle are more suffering from a mental block as opposed to something physical, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the guys that are poor during game make them just fine during practice.
Yes, of course the traditional method can work just fine. But it obviously isn't for many players. Time to try something new.
They also might be guys that can't consistently make a 15 ft shot in any circumstance, they just lack the skill, but get by because their play to close the basket is so good.
I would find this extremely difficult to believe. I think the average person has the minimum level of motor skills to become a good FT shooter, and these are world-class athletes. In any case, they haven't tried.
   3107. Zipperholes Posted: January 31, 2012 at 09:54 PM (#4050821)
Culture is a big deal in any profession. The sports world does not appear to be an exception. Just the opposite I think.
Agreed. All of us are often too closed-minded, lazy and stubborn when it comes to self-improvement. We think we can't do something just because we've failed in the past. Also, we tend to practice things we're good at rather than our weaknesses because it's more pleasurable.
   3108. Into the Void Posted: January 31, 2012 at 10:21 PM (#4050840)
Knicks fans have it good tonight...up big on Detroit, Carmelo's back, Landry Fields with 18, and to top it off a halftime interview with Whoopi Goldberg.

Loved this exchange:

Mike Breen: The Knicks are clearly a much better defensive team this year!
Walt Frazier (with not an ounce of enthusiasm): yep.
   3109. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: January 31, 2012 at 11:49 PM (#4050897)
Nuggets about to blow another tight game. I understand that Gallo was playing like #### (and that I'm not exactly unbiased here) but I don't get Karl benching him for essentially all of the 4th and OT. Don't you WANT one of your best ballhandlers/creators available in a tight game?
   3110. Maxwn Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:03 AM (#4050904)
Huge win by the Grizzlies tonight against Denver. If they had dropped this one, they were in serious danger of dropping 9 straight. The next 4 are TH @ ATL, FRI @ OKC, SUN @ BOS, and back in Memphis on MON against SAS. The Grizz offense right now is definitely showing the effects of losing a 25 usage player on a team with not much offensive depth. They have to get a ton of the offense through the defense in order to get going.

From Matt H on the last page:
On a side note, I saw NBA2k11 for $7 at my local used record place, and picked it up. What an amazing game. I am seriously addicted to "my player" mode. The presentation in that game is unreal, there are many times during gameplay where it feels like I am really playing an NBA game. I would compare it to Fifa in that regard, maybe it's not 100% simulation, but when it gets it right, it gets it right and you are hooked.

Anyone with NBA2K12? I've heard mixed reviews compared to '11, is it worth picking up?

My cousin and I have played every one of these since 2K9, I think. They are some of the best sports games I've ever played. We are playing 2K12 right now and I think it is as good or better as any in the franchise. I can't speak to the my player mode because we usually play the association/franchise mode, but the overall in-game mechanics are probably my favorite set in the series. It should be very recognizable if you played a lot of any of the others though.
   3111. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:19 AM (#4050910)

from outside the lines:

The wannabe smugglers brought a PowerPoint.
That may be the most startling detail in a story full of them about future NBA Hall of Famer and humanitarian Dikembe Mutombo.

While Mutombo was asking the U.S. Department of State to help him stop the illegal export of "conflict minerals" from his native Congo in late 2010, he also was allegedly giving a secret PowerPoint presentation to a Houston oilman to show how easy it would be to smuggle $10 million in gold from the country.
   3112. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:34 AM (#4050915)
Anyone with NBA2K12? I've heard mixed reviews compared to '11, is it worth picking up?

Agree with Maxwn, I'm really enjoying 2k12 (I have an xbox, if any of you ever want a game). In particular, I've had fun playing the "NBA's Greatest" mode, where you unlock classic teams (each centered around an all-time great) by them play (and beat) a rival - so you can play as the '87 Lakers, or '86 Celtics, or one of Russell or Wilt's teams, or about a dozen others (plus their contemporary rivals as well). The "broadcast style" of the game will reflect what it looked like at the time to watch that game on TV, and the rules are correct by era as well (right down to nitpicky things like rules on resetting the shot clock after a foul). They did a nice job with it.
   3113. kpelton Posted: February 01, 2012 at 02:12 AM (#4050936)
You're talking about whether you think it would work=. That's not the point. The point is they refuse to even try. Why? Because vanity and stubbornness rules over personal and team improvement.

I think what really bothers me is the assessment that they don't care to improve. Here's my analogy. There is ample evidence indicating that football coaches, in particular, are much too conservative with their decision-making, hurting their teams. Would you therefore say that they aren't interested in winning?
   3114. smileyy Posted: February 01, 2012 at 03:20 AM (#4050947)
The "broadcast style" of the game will reflect what it looked like at the time to watch that game on TV


WANT
   3115. Zipperholes Posted: February 01, 2012 at 03:31 AM (#4050949)
I think what really bothers me is the assessment that they don't care to improve. Here's my analogy. There is ample evidence indicating that football coaches, in particular, are much too conservative with their decision-making, hurting their teams. Would you therefore say that they aren't interested in winning?
As a whole? No. Certain individuals? Possibly. But are we talking about coaches whose styles have proven to be utter failures? Because I don't think those guys become head coaches in the NFL, and if they do, they don't last long.

An analogous specific aspect of the game, rather than an entire philosophy of playcalling, might be blitzing on 3rd and long. Let's say the Steelers blitz every 3rd and long and are the best in the league at preventing 3rd down conversions, year after year. Experts show why this is always a good strategy (regardless of personnel). No other teams ever blitz on 3rd and long. When the DCs of the poor defenses are asked why, most don't have an answer and the ones who do say it looks silly. Would I say these teams don't care about improving their 3rd down defense? Of course.
   3116. The Essex Snead Posted: February 01, 2012 at 08:51 AM (#4050970)
Mike Breen: The Knicks are clearly a much better defensive team this year!
Walt Frazier (with not an ounce of enthusiasm): yep.


Mike Breen has become all but useless as an announcer, both on a local & national level. It's like he wants to be either an unrepentant homer or a no-holds-barred straight-shooter (no Dolan), but doesn't have the stomach or true drive to really go for either one of those, so instead we're treated to insights like the quote above or "pretty" plays up the wazoo or "gee whiz, come on guys" rhetorical talking-tos when the Knicks play like the Knicks. It's even more obnoxious when he's doing the ESPN / ABC games, as he's tying this milksoppy stance to pre-defined narratives and the even-handedness that comes with doing a national broadcast, as well as a weasely "play the right way" outlook that I swear is one Randy Moss moon away from inspiring the type of woe-is-us tirade that'd make Bob Costas happy in his pants.

In actual news / fantasy concern-trolling: what's going on w/ Brandon Knight in Detroit? Is he spitting the bit all on his own, or is Frank just not giving him enough leeway to be a rookie (i.e. make mistakes)?
   3117. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: February 01, 2012 at 11:38 AM (#4051084)
Uncalled for.

I...honestly don't know if this a joke or if you're upset.
   3118. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:18 PM (#4051124)
Mike Breen has become all but useless as an announcer, both on a local & national level. It's like he wants to be either an unrepentant homer or a no-holds-barred straight-shooter (no Dolan), but doesn't have the stomach or true drive to really go for either one of those, so instead we're treated to insights like the quote above or "pretty" plays up the wazoo or "gee whiz, come on guys" rhetorical talking-tos when the Knicks play like the Knicks. It's even more obnoxious when he's doing the ESPN / ABC games, as he's tying this milksoppy stance to pre-defined narratives and the even-handedness that comes with doing a national broadcast, as well as a weasely "play the right way" outlook that I swear is one Randy Moss moon away from inspiring the type of woe-is-us tirade that'd make Bob Costas happy in his pants.

Wow. This is an unbelievably accurate summation of Breen as an announcer. Spot on.

You should have heard him talking about Greg Monroe last night. It was Tim McCarver on Derek Jeter levels of on-air mancrushing.
   3119. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4051126)
KCJHoop: Rip and Lu out vs. 76ers. #Bulls

KCJHoop: Thibodeau confirming #Bulls are going to sit Rip until he gets completely healthy. #Bulls


I have a feeling Rip is going to sit for a long time.
   3120. andrewberg Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4051136)
In actual news / fantasy concern-trolling: what's going on w/ Brandon Knight in Detroit? Is he spitting the bit all on his own, or is Frank just not giving him enough leeway to be a rookie (i.e. make mistakes)?


Pruiti did a little capsule on him this week. He said that Knight is having huge turnover problems because he mostly plays with his head down. He got credit for being more aware on PNRs in the last couple of weeks, but is still giving the ball away because he doesn't know what is going on around him a lot of the time as he barrels to the basket. That is exactly the type of thing rookies can improve, especially when you're taking a combo guard and trying to fashion him into a true point.

It's not tangentially connected to the rest of the sport. It's directly connected, because this single deficiency often dominates both teams' strategy and personnel, particularly in the highest leverage situations. Also, I don't see how changing his approach to FT shooting would affect Dwight Howard's powerful rebounding.


I'm not really in material disagreement with you about whether it would be a theoretically good idea for guys to test this out, but I would like to clarify a misunderstanding here. I'm not saying that shooting underhanded would make Howard a worse player overall, I'm saying that nothing in his skill set that makes him an excellent basketball player contributes to him being a good freethrow shooter. In other parts of the game, there might be some correlation- a guy who is an explosive scorer also likely has the athleticism to stay in front of someone on defense, for instance. On the other hand, if you make an inventory of the three or five best physical attributes Howard has, a smooth stroke or a good shooting eye would not be on the list. In other words, for all we know, he is just a bad shooter and does not have the specific type of coordination that it takes to put the ball in the basket (as I was saying earlier, I know I don't have it, and I think a guy like Steve Kerr would be a better shooter than me no matter how much more I practice).
   3121. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4051137)
You should have heard him talking about Greg Monroe last night. It was Tim McCarver on Derek Jeter levels of on-air mancrushing.
greg monroe's a hell of a player.



and since tonight is bulls-sixers, the first thing i have to say is that jodie meeks just needs to have an -on- night. i don't think the sixers can be beat when he gets his, and tonight is a night where i would really like to not be beat.
   3122. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:35 PM (#4051142)

I...honestly don't know if this a joke or if you're upset.


I assumed you were kidding. I wouldn't take it personally, rr. We've all mostly been around each other enough over the past (almost) three years.

I have a feeling Rip is going to sit for a long time.

He probably ought to. I know you guys would want HCA over Miami come the Conference Finals, but a healthy roster has to be the greater concern. The Bulls have nothing to prove in the regular season.

I am hoping the Celtics are doing the same with Rondo to some extent. I don't want any Celtic playing hurt in the regular season, lest the Celtics blow their 15% chance of upsetting the Bulls or Heat come playoff time.

WANT

Yeah, it's pretty well done. Playing, say '86 Celtics vs '86 Hawks, it really looks like an old CBS game from the '80s - I mean, they don't have the awesome theme music, graphics, or Tommy Heinsohn on hand to compare Jerry Sichting to Bob Cousy - but the mix of colors, the uniforms, the court - all of that stuff is spot on.

The only mark for me in that feature is that the '85 Sixers (one of the two Dr. J teams you can unlock) don't have Barkley* coming off the bench. Otherwise, every roster I've played has been correct for at least the 8-9 rotation guys (they seem to have used essentially generic scrubs).

* Apparently, and unsurprisingly, this was a money issue. You can supposedly find out how to make a pretty good Barkley in the custom player functionality from YouTube, though I haven't personally investigated.
   3123. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4051146)
STEAGLES, you've singlehandledly made me want to root against the 76ers.
   3124. andrewberg Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4051159)
greg monroe's a hell of a player.


Despite being biased, I think that raving about Monroe is much more fresh than raving about Jeter. He's a guy a lot of casual fans probably know little about.

We've all mostly been around each other enough over the past (almost) three years.


This thread syncs up almost exactly to when I started dating my girlfriend. Luckily, I don't think I have to worry about buying the internet any diamonds.
   3125. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:47 PM (#4051161)
STEAGLES, you've singlehandledly made me want to root against the 76ers.
i know. that's one of my great gifts.
   3126. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4051166)
greg monroe's a hell of a player.

I'm actually a big fan of Monroe and thought a lot of the criticism about him around draft time was unfounded...but literally every second Monroe was on camera Breen gave a speech about how Monroe "just looks like he could have played in the 50s or 60s" or "is just an old school kind of player" etc. The undercurrent to the praise was the issue touched on in [3116], Breen generally dislikes the modern NBA and kind of hates his job.
   3127. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4051169)
Pruiti did a little capsule on him this week. He said that Knight is having huge turnover problems because he mostly plays with his head down. He got credit for being more aware on PNRs in the last couple of weeks, but is still giving the ball away because he doesn't know what is going on around him a lot of the time as he barrels to the basket. That is exactly the type of thing rookies can improve, especially when you're taking a combo guard and trying to fashion him into a true point.

Clyde, who does a great job analyzing PGs, echoed this as well during the telecast.
   3128. jmurph Posted: February 01, 2012 at 12:58 PM (#4051176)
Breen generally dislikes the modern NBA and kind of hates his job.


Doesn't Breen work with Van Gundy on the ESPN telecasts? I like him just fine. Actually, I loved the Breen/Van Gundy/Jackson team of the last few years. I think this mostly just means I like Van Gundy, but Breen certainly doesn't stand out to me as being bad.
   3129. andrewberg Posted: February 01, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4051179)
Doesn't Breen work with Van Gundy on the ESPN telecasts? I like him just fine. Actually, I loved the Breen/Van Gundy/Jackson team of the last few years. I think this mostly just means I like Van Gundy, but Breen certainly doesn't stand out to me as being bad.


Yeah, I feel like he calls the game and mostly stays out of the way of the analysts. He's not a good analysts, but that's not his job. I never got the "doesn't like the NBA" thing.
   3130. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: February 01, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4051190)
[3128, 3129] Well maybe he just doesn't like the Knicks then, which is an entirely defensible position.
   3131. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: February 01, 2012 at 01:25 PM (#4051213)
Simmons:
Barkley declared emphatically on Thursday night that Miami and Chicago were playing in the Eastern Conference finals and nobody else had a chance. With all due respect to the Chuck Wagon, can we really say anything definitively yet? I haven't seen a single 2012 team that made me say, "That team is ready to play in the Finals, they don't need anything." Sunday's Bulls-Heat game was a perfect example: Everyone came away thinking, "Chicago still relies on only one guy down the stretch" and "Miami still gets tight when it matters."
I suppose anything is possible and perhaps STEAGLES is right, but...I really don't see any possible way a non-MIA/CHI team will represent the East in the Finals.
Here's my vote: Howard, Hedo Turkoglu's contract atrocity ($34.8 million through 2014) and the Duhon/Richardson cap-cloggers for Elton Brand (expires next year), Evan Turner, Andres Nocioni's Expiring Contract, Spencer Hawes and no. 1 picks in 2012 and 2014. Howard, Iguodala, Thaddeus Young, Lou Williams, Jrue Holiday, Nikola Vucevic, Jodie Meeks … now that's a potential rebounding/defense/transition menace!
That one's for you STEAGLES.
Wow, it's hard to believe that things might play out badly for an NBA franchise owned by a free-spending Russian oligarch who splurged on Travis Outlaw, Johan Petro, Jordan Farmar and Anthony Morrow as his first four signings, hired Billy King, lost interest within nine months and decided to run for the presidency of Russia.
Remember when the Nets were going to be awesome because of their billionaire Russian owner? No, oh, for some reason I seem to remember some media guy really pushing that story. Can't remember who though.
   3132. robinred Posted: February 01, 2012 at 01:31 PM (#4051218)
I...honestly don't know if this a joke or if you're upset.

Neither, really. Let's move on.
   3133. Maxwn Posted: February 01, 2012 at 01:33 PM (#4051223)
Agree with Maxwn, I'm really enjoying 2k12 (I have an xbox, if any of you ever want a game).

Hey, Joe, I'd be up to play some time. I've never actually played online in 2k12, so I have no idea how I stack up against any one but my cousin, but I'd enjoy giving it a shot.
   3134. robinred Posted: February 01, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4051226)
Bulls/76ers. I can feel the anticipation all the way out here in SoCal. ;-
   3135. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: February 01, 2012 at 01:38 PM (#4051232)
and since tonight is bulls-sixers, the first thing i have to say is that jodie meeks just needs to have an -on- night. i don't think the sixers can be beat when he gets his, and tonight is a night where i would really like to not be beat.

Whatever. Once again the Bulls are severely limited tonight (and are not the type of team to take advantage of the Sixers missing their centers), and will be hard pressed to handle any type of pressing defense. And Jodie 13.7PER Meeks is most certainly not the missing link to invincibility.

I suppose anything is possible and perhaps STEAGLES is right, but...I really don't see any possible way a non-MIA/CHI team will represent the East in the Finals.

He has an off chance of being right, but how exactly does that game - and even the odd finish - change the big picture?
   3136. jmurph Posted: February 01, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4051240)
He has an off chance of being right, but how exactly does that game - and even the odd finish - change the big picture?


Like Simmons, I'm sort of prone to reading too much into one game, but I came away from Sunday's game thinking that too many things will have to go perfectly for the Bulls to actually have a chance of winning a series against the Heat. So I expect another 4-1 or at worst 4-2 in this year's conference finals.

But then I remembered Rip was hobbled and Deng was out. So in the end we probably learned nothing.
   3137. robinred Posted: February 01, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4051246)
I personally think that the only thing that stops MIA/CHI in the ECF is a bad injury to Rose, Wade, James, or Bosh, or if the Bulls go in without Deng and without another pretty good guy. IND and PHI have do have nice well-balanced teams, but I don't see a 2004 Pistons squad with either.

I also think that if the Clippers can make one more small bench add, and maybe even if not, they have a shot to go to the Finals this year. The West is balanced enough 2-11 that they could also lose in RD 1, and you have the Del Negro factor. But I like the way Paul/Billups have reversed the Clippers TO numbers, as noted upthread, and with those guys plus Griffin, I think they will be dangerous in a seven-game series against anyone. OKC is of course the clear favorite, but I think the Clippers have about as good a chance as anyone else.
   3138. Fourth True Outcome Posted: February 01, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4051257)
I personally think that the only thing that stops MIA/CHI in the ECF is a bad injury to Rose, Wade, James, or Bosh


I think the flipside of Wade and LeBron's overlapping skillsets is the fact that the team is uniquely constructed to not be torpedoed by the loss of one of them. (Likely Wade, given injury histories...) Losing one of them would be a blow, but I don't know that it would be a big enough one to keep the Heat from being favorites to make the ECF. I mean, look at how the team played with Wade sitting out. One of LeBron/Wade paired with Bosh is still a hell of a lead tandem.
   3139. andrewberg Posted: February 01, 2012 at 02:05 PM (#4051265)
you have the Del Negro factor


You kind of get at this idea, but Paul really help undermine the Del Negro factor. I suppose they will still have trouble with defensive schemes. On offense, though, Paul basically makes in game adjustments and calls plays late in games and does not need a coach to guide him through it. He appears to have the gravitas to get other players to follow his lead. That might help suppress the impact of VDN's shortcomings.
   3140. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: February 01, 2012 at 02:26 PM (#4051299)
You kind of get at this idea, but Paul really help undermine the Del Negro factor. I suppose they will still have trouble with defensive schemes. On offense, though, Paul basically makes in game adjustments and calls plays late in games and does not need a coach to guide him through it. He appears to have the gravitas to get other players to follow his lead. That might help suppress the impact of VDN's shortcomings.

So what you're saying is the lack of practices and shootarounds in this compressed season is actually an advantage for the Clippers? Unless Paul is going to be game planning and working on adjustments during the playoffs, this is going to be a problem for them.
   3141. andrewberg Posted: February 01, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4051307)
So what you're saying is the lack of practices and shootarounds in this compressed season is actually an advantage for the Clippers? Unless Paul is going to be game planning and working on adjustments during the playoffs, this is going to be a problem for them.


That, and they don't need to rely on VDN to draw up plays or make adjustments during games because Paul, in many cases, does it on his own.

Edit- I agree that it will be a relative disadvantage in the playoffs. As good as Paul is, he's not a head coach, meaning they're operating at a deficiency no matter what.
   3142. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 02:41 PM (#4051323)
Here's my vote: Howard, Hedo Turkoglu's contract atrocity ($34.8 million through 2014) and the Duhon/Richardson cap-cloggers for Elton Brand (expires next year), Evan Turner, Andres Nocioni's Expiring Contract, Spencer Hawes and no. 1 picks in 2012 and 2014. Howard, Iguodala, Thaddeus Young, Lou Williams, Jrue Holiday, Nikola Vucevic, Jodie Meeks … now that's a potential rebounding/defense/transition menace!
That one's for you STEAGLES.
i don't do that. that's too much bad contract to take on, and i don't believe in tossing draft picks into deals (even deals for players as good as dwight howard) as if they're skittles.

i like the framework (turner, brand, hawes for howard), but rest of that deal is just too ugly for me to be enthusiastic about it.
Whatever. Once again the Bulls are severely limited tonight (and are not the type of team to take advantage of the Sixers missing their centers), and will be hard pressed to handle any type of pressing defense. And Jodie 13.7PER Meeks is most certainly not the missing link to invincibility.
with the way the sixers play, iguodala, brand, young, turner, williams, holiday, and hawes are all gonna give you consistent production game in, game out. but when meeks adds 4 or 5 3s on top of everything else that everyone else gives you, i believe the team is unbeatable.


he's not a good player (his 13 PER adequately portrays his overall performance), but he is capable of having runs that can turn a 3 point lead into a 12 point lead in 60 seconds, and when he has those runs, well, you know.
   3143. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: February 01, 2012 at 02:57 PM (#4051350)
I'd like a club salad, but hold that green ####.^
Of course the junk* for Dwight Howard part is appealing - to get a stud, you're going to need to give them something too (cap relief).
If I'm Philly, I definitely do a deal *like* that (presuming Howard agrees to a max deal beforehand) - Howard is probably the second best player in the league.
Also, if Philly is as good as you like to believe/pretend, then those picks kind of are skittles (well, maybe Reese's pieces - tasty, but no entree). That is, there's nothing magical about an end of the first round pick that makes it way better than an early second rounder (which fans tend to blow off).

^ Actually, I really like salads and ought to eat them way more often.
* No, they aren't junk but - comparatively speaking...

he's not a good player (his 13 PER adequately portrays his overall performance), but he is capable of having runs that can turn a 3 point lead into a 12 point lead in 60 seconds, and when he has those runs, well, you know.
That's also true for Willie Green and, as you know, Willie Green stinks. (Meeks definitely does not stink but - meh.)
   3144. andrewberg Posted: February 01, 2012 at 02:59 PM (#4051355)
League average PER is down to something like 13.5 this year, too, so that bolsters Meeks's offensive portfolio every so slightly.
   3145. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: February 01, 2012 at 03:01 PM (#4051361)
League PER should always be 15 - it's an index. (Unless I'm missing a joke.)
   3146. andrewberg Posted: February 01, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4051376)
That's what I previously thought. Then I saw this and figured I had misunderstood it. What's up there?
   3147. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: February 01, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4051384)
I was under the same impression (league avg has to be 15). I checked some of the past years on the link in 3146 and the league average dips into the 12s. Not sure what's going on.
   3148. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 03:27 PM (#4051388)
Of course the junk* for Dwight Howard part is appealing - to get a stud, you're going to need to give them something too (cap relief).
there's no reason to bid against yourself. if LA isn't offering bynum, there's noone who can touch that offer (hawes, turner, brand).

i might be wrong (and at the very least, i'm fairly sure i'm premature on this), but this season, hawes is playing better than brook lopez ever has. he's rebounding better, shooting better, and playing defense just as well as lopez, and since age isn't an issue (hawes is actually younger than lopez, despite having an extra year in the NBA), i'm not seeing new jersey's offer as being head and shoulders above the sixers'.


Also, if Philly is as good as you like to believe/pretend, then those picks kind of are skittles (well, maybe Reese's pieces - tasty, but no entree). That is, there's nothing magical about an end of the first round pick that makes it way better than an early second rounder (which fans tend to blow off).
i thought the common wisdom was that an early second round pick was actually better than a late first, due to the contract not being guaranteed.
   3149. robinred Posted: February 01, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4051408)
So what you're saying is the lack of practices and shootarounds in this compressed season is actually an advantage for the Clippers? Unless Paul is going to be game planning and working on adjustments during the playoffs, this is going to be a problem for them.


One of the ESPN guys--don't recall if it was Pelton, Arnovitz or Hollinger (I think Arnovitz) said that Paul would help a lot in this respect during the season, but in the playoffs, against a smart guy, like say Carlisle, it is likely to be a bigger issue.

But Paul's ability to run a possession and get the team a good shot, as we talked about in the Abbott stuff and LAAFP broke down well, will help the Clippers at money time.

Anecdote along these lines: the Lakers had a lot of trouble with Minnesota's zone, but got a few good looks later by hitting the bigs in the middle of the key for high-low action, which is HS stuff. Bynum got a couple of easy throwdowns from this action, and when he was asked about it after the game, said that Fisher was the one who "drew it up" and told them to attack that way. Not sure if he was kidding or not, but it didn't seem like it.
   3150. robinred Posted: February 01, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4051417)
if LA isn't offering bynum,


I don't think the Lakers will get Howard, but I am assuming you mean "Gasol." The issue with the deal is whether the Lakers will give up both Gasol and Bynum for Howard and probably Turkoglu. Orlando understandably wants that if they deal with the Lakers, but Buss supposedly doesn't want to do "14 for 7" as it is called by some in LakerLand.
   3151. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 03:55 PM (#4051426)

I don't think the Lakers will get Howard, but I am assuming you mean "Gasol." The issue with the deal is whether the Lakers will give up both Gasol and Bynum for Howard and probably Turkoglu. Orlando understandably wants that if they deal with the Lakers, but Buss supposedly doesn't want to do "14 for 7" as it is called by some in LakerLand.
i think bynum alone would be a more attractive offer than the sixers package above, but i don't think gasol is on that level anymore. he makes too much money, and if he's on the downside of his career, he's not a player who's gonna make the difference between winning and losing a playoff series against the bulls or heat.

i actually think the magic would be better off to let dwight howard walk in free agency than they would be if they traded him for pau gasol.
   3152. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4051439)
johnschuhmann: The Plus-Minus Player of the Month for January is Jrue Holiday, who was a +181 in 17 gms. Next: Chalmers (+153) T.Young (+151) Korver (+140)

Jessica Camerato: #Cavs Kyrie Irving and #Timberwolves Ricky Rubio named #NBA Eastern and Western Conf. Rookies of the Month for gms played Dec. 25 - January. now

Jared Zwerling: Tom Thibodeau (East) and Scott Brooks (West) were named Coaches of the Month ... 1 minute ago
Darnell Mayberry: KD: "It was a layup, I think. He threw the ball in and got fouled and made a free throw. So it’s three points at the end of the day." about 12 minutes ago

Darnell Mayberry: KD when asked what kind of appreciation he has for Blake's dunk on Perk: "I have no appreciation for it at all." about 14 minutes ago
   3153. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:10 PM (#4051444)
i actually think the magic would be better off to let dwight howard walk in free agency than they would be if they traded him for pau gasol.
If it comes down to that, I think the Magic will, too. It's one thing to be locked in to Bynum for a half-decade, it's an entirely other thing to be locked in to Gasol for two or three or whatever.

But Paul's ability to run a possession and get the team a good shot, as we talked about in the Abbott stuff and LAAFP broke down well, will help the Clippers at money time.
When you get a chance, go back and look at the Griffin/Perkins dunk. The possession was essentially CP3 trying one PnR, saw nothing, drew the ball out, and tried another with Griffin. They didn't run a play, it was just CP3 probing the defense, trying to create a mismatch or a lane for whomever set the pick. It's very reminiscent of the Nash-to-Amare PnRs that worked so well for so long. If Paul-to-Griffin is anything like that, that's a scary combination for the rest of the league. (Which makes the Stern screw job all that much worse for Laker fans. #foreverbitter)
   3154. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4051445)
johnschuhmann: The Plus-Minus Player of the Month for January is Jrue Holiday, who was a +181 in 17 gms. Next: Chalmers (+153) T.Young (+151) Korver (+140)
Maybe the Heat can package Chalmers and some picks for Howard.
   3155. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:15 PM (#4051454)
i thought the common wisdom was that an early second round pick was actually better than a late first, due to the contract not being guaranteed.
Right. (There's also the issue of being able snagging a Euro who might sign in a few years but would never come over for low 1st rookie scale - like a Pekovic or Asik.)
In any case, the #25 pick, while great, doesn't stop you from getting Howard.

As for Hawes, well, I don't believe in him yet - simple as that^. Hopefully for you, I'm wrong. Also, salary aside, I'd rather have Brook Lopez and it's not all that close.

^ - I actually own him in fantasy, btw. Wanna move him to get some forward depth.

***

I have to think that's an error in hoopdata's calculations.
   3156. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4051463)
Good preview of Bulls/Sixers for Zach Lowe.

I didn't realize Philly relies so much on long two's; yet another reason not to like their long term chances.
   3157. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4051464)
In any case, the #25 pick, while great, doesn't stop you from getting Howard.
i agree. but there's no reason to just toss it in when you could get howard without it.

As for Hawes, well, I don't believe in him yet - simple as that^. Hopefully for you, I'm wrong. Also, salary aside, I'd rather have Brook Lopez and it's not all that close.
i don't know that you're wrong about hawes, but lopez just isn't as good as people like to think he is. he doesn't block shots, he doesn't rebound, he doesn't shoot a high percentage.

if hawes plays like he has to start this season, and lopez plays like he has through his career, there's no doubt that hawes is the better player. but there's no guarantee that hawes will continue shooting as well as he has, and if the back issue is chronic, he's probably not gonna defend or rebound as well as he has, either.
   3158. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:41 PM (#4051479)
I didn't realize Philly relies so much on long two's; yet another reason not to like their long term chances.
i think you're looking at it in the wrong way. most of the elite defenses try to force other teams to shoot long twos, so the sixers proficiency at it should (could) prove to be an advantage against better teams.

   3159. JJ1986 Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:44 PM (#4051483)
I have to think that's an error in hoopdata's calculations.


If the average PER for all NBA minutes is 15, then most players are going to be below that. Maybe 13.5 is the median player.
   3160. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4051489)
i think you're looking at it in the wrong way. most of the elite defenses try to force other teams to shoot long twos, so the sixers proficiency at it should (could) prove to be an advantage against better teams.

How many elite defenses have they faced? If they're relying on that against inferior defenses, they're just flat out going to struggle against elite ones.
   3161. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:55 PM (#4051500)
Ah - that's true! Their averages, iirc, are averages of the totals above. So, in this instance, a median. Good job!

I think Lopez is overrated but...

_______Lopez_____|___Hawes_____
Age  PER
/WS /WS48  PER/WS WS48
 19 
------------- 11.6/0.6/.033
 20 17.9
/5.8/.112 13.0/0.8/.016
 21 20.1
/7.9/.125 13.8/2.1/.054
 22 19.3
/6.3/.105 12.8/2.4/.066
 23 
------------- 22.4/1.7/.256 (so far... Hawes has played 323 min)
tot 19.1/20 /.114 13.4/7.6/.051 


12 good games do not overrule the preceding 200-300.
   3162. andrewberg Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:55 PM (#4051501)
Which makes the Stern screw job all that much worse for Laker fans. #foreverbitter


David didn't screw the Lakers, the Lakers screwed the Lakers.

i don't know that you're wrong about hawes, but lopez just isn't as good as people like to think he is. he doesn't block shots, he doesn't rebound, he doesn't shoot a high percentage.


Prior to this year, Lopez had these ts%: 57, 57, 55. Hawes was 49, 51, 51, 48. Lopez's reb rates were: 16, 14, 10, Hawes with 15, 14, 16, 13. Lopez also has a better block rate (3.8 to 3.2) for the career.

It is disturbing that Lopez had such a valley for rebounding as a 22 year old. Still, he has scored at a higher volume while doing so more efficiently, has defended better (to my eyes and by stats), and takes a tremendous amount of crap for having Kris Humphries pathologically steal every uncontested rebound in his contract year.

And before someone says Lopez is fragile, guys like Oden, Walton, etc who could never get healthy didn't start their careers by playing in their first 246 games without missing one like Lopez did.
   3163. madvillain Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:56 PM (#4051506)
i think you're looking at it in the wrong way. most of the elite defenses try to force other teams to shoot long twos, so the sixers proficiency at it should (could) prove to be an advantage against better teams.

How many elite defenses have they faced? If they're relying on that against inferior defenses, they're just flat out going to struggle against elite ones.


Yea, Steagles, this is just crazy talk. The long 2 point shot is the worst in basketball, any sort of "hot streak" from 16-20 feet is unsustainable long term unless you are Lebron, Chris Paul or Steve Nash, as according to Synergy those guys are some of the best from mid-range. And by best it means they shoot about 45% from that range, which still, isn't efficient in isolation. Obviously it opens up the lane for those guys, but I don't see any "pure shooters" on the Sixers, certainly not Iggy or Young.

______________

I'm with Moses, just another regular season game where someone can get injured. Rose seems to be personally on a mission to carry this team without Lu and Rip, and we'll see if he can put up another 30 points on 20 shots tonight. Hopefully Boozer can take advantage of the Sixers' weaknesses inside and get it going, otherwise it's gonna be another night of Derrick and 4 guys hustling.

As for Rip, I put the over under at 2 weeks for his return. The Bulls are on a 9 game road trip, but honestly, looking at the schedule, they should win 80% of this months games without him. The league just isn't that good relative to Miami and Chicago, Wade out, Lu out, Rip out, it hardly matters for them they are so superior to the rest of the league, other than perhaps OKC.
   3164. andrewberg Posted: February 01, 2012 at 04:57 PM (#4051507)
If the average PER for all NBA minutes is 15, then most players are going to be below that. Maybe 13.5 is the median player.


Thanks, and good point.
   3165. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 01, 2012 at 05:23 PM (#4051531)
I really don't see any possible way a non-MIA/CHI team will represent the East in the Finals.

I agree with this. I do think that with the right combination of injuries and luck, there are a few teams that could sneak into one of the ECF spots against the one of the top two, but the EC Champ will be Miami or Chicago unless something REALLY crazy happens (e.g. Rose and Lebron are out of the playoffs).

i know. that's one of my great gifts.

Heh. Nothing personal, mind you.

Hey, Joe, I'd be up to play some time. I've never actually played online in 2k12, so I have no idea how I stack up against any one but my cousin, but I'd enjoy giving it a shot.

Maxwn, I'd enjoy giving it a shot as well. Don't worry about your level of play; I play maybe 3-5 games per week, and have also never played anyone online.
Best times for me are evenings between 9 and midnight EST and weekends. Drop me a line via BBTF mail - my address should be current - and we can continue the plan there.

(Which makes the Stern screw job all that much worse for Laker fans. #foreverbitter

I love it when you bring this up.

(Commence jokes about how KG can barely dunk now eventhough he's 7 feet because his knees are so shot)

Matt H./[3613] is mostly spot on, I think. In particular, a) the point about the sustainability of making so many long 2 pointers and b) that this game means anything other than "just another regular season game" to the Bulls. Frankly, it shouldn't matter much to either team.
   3166. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: February 01, 2012 at 05:58 PM (#4051560)
'm with Moses, just another regular season game where someone can get injured.

Agreed, what you guys really need to be looking out for is the matchup with the Knicks where Toney Douglas will come out of his season long shooting coma to light up Rose once again. Yep.
   3167. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4051569)
12 good games do not overrule the preceding 200-300.
i could counter that by arguing that PER overrates lopez because of his high usage rate.

hawes is a better rebounder than lopez, and a better facilitator (both of which predate his emergence this season), so the question is whether his improvement in efficiency is for real, or if he's gonna go back to shooting 46% from the field.

i don't know the answer either way (and it's important to also note that lopez may improve his deficiencies in the same way that hawes has improved his), but right now, i'll put it this way, neither brook lopez nor spencer hawes are going to be the best or second best player on a championship contender.

and since this is in reference to a dwight howard trade, is the second best player in new jersey's offer likely to be better than evan turner? and is the third best player likely to be better than elton brand?

Yea, Steagles, this is just crazy talk. The long 2 point shot is the worst in basketball, any sort of "hot streak" from 16-20 feet is unsustainable long term unless you are Lebron, Chris Paul or Steve Nash, as according to Synergy those guys are some of the best from mid-range. And by best it means they shoot about 45% from that range, which still, isn't efficient in isolation. Obviously it opens up the lane for those guys, but I don't see any "pure shooters" on the Sixers, certainly not Iggy or Young.
this isn't something that's going to be answered tonight. it's the kind of thing that either will, or will not show up towards the end of the season.


also, when boston was getting to the NBA finals, their offense was successful despite also being heavily dependent on long 2s. so, it's not as if this single attribute will derail any hope the sixers have of advancing in the playoffs.


in other words, i think your concern is well overblown.
   3168. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:12 PM (#4051575)
also, when boston was getting to the NBA finals, their offense was successful despite also being heavily dependent on long 2s. so, it's not as if this single attribute will derail any hope the sixers have of advancing in the playoffs.

That was a team that won because of its amazing defense, not its stellar offense. The '10 team struggled badly to score at times. Those teams also featured Ray Allen, as pure a shooter as they come, Paul Pierce, and Kevin Garnett (deadly from 18 feet, or at least he was 3-4 years ago). Not a typical team in that way.

As you say, though, we will see as the season progresses how that shakes out.
   3169. madvillain Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:13 PM (#4051577)
also, when boston was getting to the NBA finals, their offense was successful despite also being heavily dependent on long 2s. so, it's not as if this single attribute will derail any hope the sixers have of advancing in the playoffs.


Get back to me when the Sixers have the best defensive rating in the league by a solid margin, as did the Celtics their championship year. Their offensive rating was 10th, good, but hardly the main reason for their success.
   3170. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:15 PM (#4051578)
That was a team that won because of its amazing defense, not its stellar offense. The '10 team struggled badly to score at times. Those teams also featured Ray Allen, as pure a shooter as they come, Paul Pierce, and Kevin Garnett (deadly from 18 feet, at least he was 3-4 years ago). Not a typical team in that way.


Sure, but the Sixers feature Jodie Meeks, as pure a shooter as they come, Jrue Holiday, and Evan Turner (deadly from 18 feet, at least he was 3-4 years ago). Not a typical team in that way either.
   3171. Famous Original Joe C Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:16 PM (#4051582)
Sure, but the Sixers feature Jodie Meeks

And if he takes 6-7 threes per game and shoots 70-80% on them, the Sixers are unbeatable.
   3172. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:24 PM (#4051588)
And if he takes 6-7 threes per game and shoots 70-80% on them, the Sixers are unbeatable.


It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.
   3173. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:24 PM (#4051589)
i could counter that by arguing that PER overrates lopez because of his high usage rate.
Which is why I added WS/WS48.

Going into the season, it looked possible that Lopez would be. Going into the season, Hawes looked like someone I wouldn't want in my rotation (but still young enough to turn into something more).
I'll give you that Hawes is a better playmaker - sure. Also, a slightly better rebounder. Lopez was an infinitely more efficient shooter/scorer (don't forget that Lopez is good at getting to the line, where he hits his attempts - while Hawes is arguably the worst big man in league history* at getting to the stripe relative to his number of two point attempts (not an exaggeration - also, not an area he's improved at). Neither was great defensively, I'd give the advantage to Lopez.

Are you arguing that Hawes is better than Turner, by the way? If you think this year is his level of ability then sure - but, I figured you were just playing with hyperbole again. Turner's solid, but hasn't shown more than that yet. Elton Brand is pure salary dump (albeit useful in the short term salary dump... you don't want him getting in Anderson's way, minute wise - and I don't think their roster would support giving Brand much time at the five, where his limitations would show a little more.)

* Depends on how you define the question. Rasho would probably be my pick + isn't a bad comp.
   3174. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:25 PM (#4051590)
Get back to me when the Sixers have the best defensive rating in the league by a solid margin, as did the Celtics their championship year. Their offensive rating was 10th, good, but hardly the main reason for their success.
is a 3.7 point advantage in D-rating large enough? because, and i could be wrong, i think that's the advantage the sixers currently have over the bulls this season.
That was a team that won because of its amazing defense, not its stellar offense. The '10 team struggled badly to score at times. Those teams also featured Ray Allen, as pure a shooter as they come, Paul Pierce, and Kevin Garnett (deadly from 18 feet, or at least he was 3-4 years ago). Not a typical team in that way.
i'm just pointing out that there's more give to matt's statement than he's willing to acknowledge.


   3175. Maxwn Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:29 PM (#4051597)
Get back to me when the Sixers have the best defensive rating in the league by a solid margin, as did the Celtics their championship year. Their offensive rating was 10th, good, but hardly the main reason for their success.

Umm...I'm not totally sure what the best way to measure this is, but isn't that true now? BBref has the sixers with the lowest DRating in the league at 94.0. The next best is Chicago at 97.3. In Boston's championship season they led 98.9 to the Rockets 101.6. Hoopdata's Defensive Efficiency also has Philly in the lead at 91.7 to 94.5.

Early season and schedule strength differences all apply, but just thought I'd throw that out there.

Edit: Coke to steagles.
   3176. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:31 PM (#4051599)

Are you arguing that Hawes is better than Turner, by the way?
it was sloppy phrasing.

but if we're talking about it, i would not necessarily dismiss the possibility.
I don't think their roster would support giving Brand much time at the five, where his limitations would show a little more.)
brand can play stretches at the 5. all of last season, the team ended games with brand at the 5 and young-iguodala-turner/meeks/williams-holiday around him. he's not a starter there, but he can eat minutes.

he's still a really effective player.

and actually, if the magic still have earl clark, him and brand at the 4/5 would have a lot of the same dynamic that brand/young have for the sixers.
   3177. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:40 PM (#4051608)
Hopefully Boozer can take advantage of the Sixers' weaknesses inside and get it going, otherwise it's gonna be another night of Derrick and 4 guys hustling.

Well, if Thad Young gets extended time at the 4 tonight, Boozer's going to give those right back. Stretch 4s are his kryptonite (also, good 4s apparently).

As for Rip, I put the over under at 2 weeks for his return.

I'll take the over. Up until today, it's always been let's see how he's feeling. Today, they made it clear he was sitting until everything was healed.

I agree with this. I do think that with the right combination of injuries and luck, there are a few teams that could sneak into one of the ECF spots against the one of the top two, but the EC Champ will be Miami or Chicago unless something REALLY crazy happens (e.g. Rose and Lebron are out of the playoffs).

I said it the other day - most likely scenario is Philly winning the 1 seed and CHI/MIA play in the 2nd round. 2nd most likely is Boston taking one of them out. 3rd most likely, plane crash.

and is the third best player likely to be better than elton brand?

I'm staying out of the rest of this discussion, but Brand, with that contract, has negative trade value.

is a 3.7 point advantage in D-rating large enough? because, and i could be wrong, i think that's the advantage the sixers currently have over the bulls this season.

I will say this and stop - you really need to learn what small sample size means. Because in this discussion, the Hawes one, the Meeks one - basically every one related to the Sixers this year, your posts demonstrate you really don't understand it. There's hyperbole and fandom - you lead the thread in both - but when you try to do actual analysis you keep tripping over this.
   3178. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:43 PM (#4051611)
We were talking about players we hate recently. I hate Brandon Jennings - and I can't put my finger on why. But he is getting better this year (I also like that chart/graphic in the middle).
   3179. madvillain Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:44 PM (#4051613)
I will admit shock at learning the Sixers are currently the #1 rated team in defensive rating. As Moses pointed out, small sample size and all that. If they are still there at the end of the year, I'll send you a care package from Pike Place Market. Hopefully you like seafood. I'm serious about this too, I'll send it if they are #1 at the end of the season.
   3180. Jimmy P Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:46 PM (#4051614)
David didn't screw the Lakers, the Lakers screwed the Lakers.


That's right, Stern screwed the Hornets. Right now New Orleans has zero to show for trading the best point guard in the NBA.
   3181. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:48 PM (#4051615)
I will say this and stop - you really need to learn what small sample size means. Because in this discussion, the Hawes one, the Meeks one - basically every one related to the Sixers this year, your posts demonstrate you really don't understand it. There's hyperbole and fandom - you lead the thread in both - but when you try to do actual analysis you keep tripping over this.
we're 1/3 of the way through the season. how much longer do you want me to wait?

   3182. smileyy Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:54 PM (#4051619)
Wow, it's hard to believe that things might play out badly for an NBA franchise owned by a free-spending Russian oligarch who splurged on Travis Outlaw, Johan Petro, Jordan Farmar and Anthony Morrow as his first four signings, hired Billy King, lost interest within nine months and decided to run for the presidency of Russia.


I wonder if he lost interest after he (1) couldn't get Carmelo's groupies in NJ, (2) discovered that DWill's groupies are only 7s or 8s, and (3) learned that Dwight's groupies (a) don't give it up easy and (b) cry and pray afterwards.
   3183. Into the Void Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:55 PM (#4051620)
we're 1/3 of the way through the season. how much longer do you want me to wait?


Looking at the schedule, I'm guessing the next six games will make a significant difference on the Sixers defensive rating. They've played the Wizards FIVE times already!
   3184. Maxwn Posted: February 01, 2012 at 06:58 PM (#4051624)
Looking at the schedule, I'm guessing the next six games will make a significant difference on the Sixers defensive rating. They've played the Wizards FIVE times already!

The Wizards were their preseason partner, so two of those were preseason and don't count. Nobody plays more than 4 times a season.
   3185. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: February 01, 2012 at 07:47 PM (#4051643)
I too would recommend picking up NBA2k12. Better graphics, gameplay seems more realistic, and more classic teams to unlock. For some reason I almost only played the My Player mode on 2k11 with a bit of the MJ mode but on 2k12 I've mostly just played franchise.

One thing that drove me nuts about 2k11 is that at least once a game either my PG or the opposing PG would do a dribble move resulting in an unforced half court violation. I haven't noticed weird bugs like that in 2k12. I'm not sure if you can play as MJ as a rookie in My Player mode for 2k12, but you can play as any current player which is a nice addition.
   3186. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 08:00 PM (#4051647)
tip off for the game of the century is in a few minutes.

mfranknba: Hawes says he doesn't know when he'll be back. "I'm done with predictions. I thought I'd be back last week." #Sixers
   3187. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: February 01, 2012 at 08:10 PM (#4051653)
Not only am I down w brand playing the five - I argued that he should do so more often for phila up thread. However, you guys are way rangy-er on D than Orl - don't think that's a great fit for them.

Earl Clark? I'm not yet convinced that he's even an NBA talent...
   3188. Mess with the Meat, you get the Wad! Posted: February 01, 2012 at 08:12 PM (#4051654)
Korver and brewer starting for the bulls
   3189. Starlin of the Slipstream (TRHN) Posted: February 01, 2012 at 08:32 PM (#4051661)
With the sixers' 24 point victory over the Bulls in the books, I think it's clear that they're up there with OKC and MIA as the best team in the league.
   3190. madvillain Posted: February 01, 2012 at 08:33 PM (#4051662)
Korver and brewer starting for the bulls


2nd game in a row. I can't stand Korver as a starter, he's such a horrible liability on defense and the glass, and offensively he's got to be one of the least effective dead eye shooters in the history of the NBA at finding the open man after they over commit to him.

Philly's broadcast crew treating this like the NBA Finals. These guys are annoying homers from what I can tell. But so are Chicago's so whatever broadcast I watch I'm ######.
   3191. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: February 01, 2012 at 08:49 PM (#4051671)
3190 - try anthOny morrow
   3192. JuanGone..except1game Posted: February 01, 2012 at 08:51 PM (#4051674)
David didn't screw the Lakers, the Lakers screwed the Lakers.


Huh!!!?! The Lakers trade for Chris Paul with a deal that is submitted to the league office. David Stern in an unprecedented move vetoes the trade, not before the trade is submitted, but after which means that the trade has been approved by the "team". It's spilled milk at this point, but I'd love to hear an opinion that somehow the Lakers did this to themselves.
We were talking about players we hate recently. I hate Brandon Jennings - and I can't put my finger on why.

His original flat-top fade will be a permanent stain on his career. I don't blame you.
   3193. Fourth True Outcome Posted: February 01, 2012 at 09:05 PM (#4051680)
His original flat-top fade will be a permanent stain on his career.


What!? I don't really have a strong opinion on him as a player, but that 'do was magnificent!
   3194. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 01, 2012 at 09:09 PM (#4051681)
David didn't screw the Lakers, the Lakers screwed the Lakers.

That's right, Stern screwed the Hornets. Right now New Orleans has zero to show for trading the best point guard in the NBA.
It's possible to screw more than one team at one time. I was the one who pointed out first here that Stern's "basketball reason" was to make sure NO would be basically a husk of a team that some ownership group can pick up at an affordable price.

Sixers up by 5 at the half. Man, I so want to see this thread when — WHEN! — Steagles has a reason to celebrate.
   3195. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 09:17 PM (#4051683)
David didn't screw the Lakers, the Lakers screwed the Lakers.


Huh!!!?!
it's from professional wrestling, it references the montreal screwjob.

"i didn't screw bret hart. bret hart screwed bret hart."
   3196. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 01, 2012 at 09:19 PM (#4051686)
Sixers up by 5 at the half. Man, I so want to see this thread when — WHEN! — Steagles has a reason to celebrate.
honestly, i enjoy the climb up the mountain much, much more than the view from the summit.

this is probably the best/worst time for me/you. we're really in a sweetspot right now.
   3197. madvillain Posted: February 01, 2012 at 09:37 PM (#4051691)
Painful to watch this game. I feel sorry for Rose, honestly. Boozer can #### off. His weak ass game is annoying me right now.
   3198. madvillain Posted: February 01, 2012 at 09:39 PM (#4051693)
Gibson and Asik have been absolute garbage as well. Oh well, get healthy and move on.
   3199. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 01, 2012 at 09:41 PM (#4051696)
TWENTY POINTS AFTER THREE! Wow.

I'm not a Sixers fan, but I'm one of the few people who actually enjoys Steagles going off. Plus, I don't particularly like the Bulls, so watching them get humbled is always a mildly enjoyable.
   3200. JuanGone..except1game Posted: February 01, 2012 at 09:41 PM (#4051697)
"i didn't screw bret hart. bret hart screwed bret hart."


Had to Wiki it since I stopped watching wrestling around 95/96. I was more of a Road Warriors guy anyway.

In a bit of threadjack, listened to a Lebatard radio interview on Friday with Sgt. Slaughter. which was unbelieveable. Sgt. told two stories where a) The Iron Shiek tried (sincerely) to stab him with a knife backstage one time because he criticized his performance and Hacksaw Jim slid him the 2x4 so that he could protect himself and b) Andre the Giant pranked Haystack (650 lbs) by spiking his food with ex-lax on a flight so he had to do his business in the stewardess area because he couldn't fit in the bathroom. Metta World Peace went into the wrong business.


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