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Friday, December 02, 2011

NBA THREAD DECEMBER: POST-LOCKOUT

With the lockout over, I estimate that there may be more than 10-12 Primates who want to talk about the NBA, and with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: fractional reserve banking, and Tim Tebow.

rr Posted: December 02, 2011 at 12:26 AM | 3254 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: general

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   401. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:04 AM (#4011002)
Apparently, the Board of Govs meeting (where they also voted on the CBA) was quite contentious with many owners lighting up Stern. I wonder if Stern got the vote before or after the trade news broke...
   402. madvillain Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:05 AM (#4011003)
Plus Robin, they are transitioning away from the triangle no? Going to be a hell of a change for Kobe and Bynum.
   403. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:07 AM (#4011006)
Whatever result--it's more bad PR for the NBA.
Terrible optics, right after an owner-initiated lockout where they tried to pitch parity/competitive balance as a cause, the league-owned team makes a deal with the league's richest team.
   404. The District Attorney Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:08 AM (#4011008)
Thus ends the Era of Good Feelings (November 26, 2011 - December 8, 2011).

I'm guessing Expos fans wish the owners at the time of the Bartolo Colon trade were the NBA owners.
   405. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:09 AM (#4011010)
Plus Robin, they are transitioning away from the triangle no? Going to be a hell of a change for Kobe and Bynum.


Yep. It will be/would have been interesting, for sure.

I will be a little pissed if the NBA pulls the plug on the deal assuming Demps and Kupchak/Buss have agreed to it. I could live with that if they did it on a Howard deal following this one, but I don't think they should do it for this deal. Gasol and Odom aren't a pile of crap and Paul, like I said, is not LeBron James.
   406. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:10 AM (#4011011)
Thus ends the Era of Good Feelings (November 26, 2011 - December 8, 2011).
Excellent.
   407. madvillain Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:10 AM (#4011012)
Stein is tweeting the deal is OFF. What a ###########, seriously, this deal makes solid basketball sense for NOLA -- you know what ####### trade Stern should have vetoed? The Pau to LA trade.
   408. Into the Void Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:10 AM (#4011013)
Woj just tweeted the NBA killed the deal.
   409. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:12 AM (#4011015)
That advantage that got them swept in the 2nd round last year? Right


No. The one that hung two more banners.
   410. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:12 AM (#4011016)
Stein is tweeting the deal is OFF. What a ###########, seriously, this deal makes solid basketball sense for NOLA


This pretty much sums up my feelings. Killing a trade for PR reasons is pretty terrible and the Lakers FO has every reason to be pissed. Of course this highlights the bigger point... a pro sports league should not own one of its teams.
   411. Into the Void Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:12 AM (#4011017)
What a ###########, seriously, this deal makes solid basketball sense for NOLA -- you know what ####### trade Stern should have vetoed? The Pau to LA trade.


Yeah, I don't understand how they could do this. NOLA was obviously going to trade Odom and Scola for youth/draft picks.
   412. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:15 AM (#4011018)
It's a decent trade for the Hornets, so it's not like they're being rooked. But if Stern hadn't figured out this was going to set off a ####-storm among the rest of the NBA, then he's completely lost his touch and needs to step down yesterday.
   413. madvillain Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:15 AM (#4011021)
At this point, the NBA has proven itself a complete farce IMO. Vetoing trades for PR purposes? Seriously? If I was a fan of the teams involved I'd feel gut punched.
   414. JC in DC Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:17 AM (#4011024)
They should just contract NO and divvy up the players by lottery. FROZEN ENVELOPE LOTTERY! Paul to NY, with no cap repercussions.
   415. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:17 AM (#4011025)
Stein is tweeting the deal is OFF.

That sucks, but NO will still take Gasol right?

you know what ####### trade Stern should have vetoed? The Pau to LA trade.

Everything old is new again.
   416. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:17 AM (#4011026)
The Pau to LA trade.


Cue up the Kobe rape jokes--that's next.
   417. JC in DC Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:19 AM (#4011027)
If the NBA kills this deal, how does NO make ANY deal? Wouldn't the NBA have to block the Paul to Celts deal? Doesn't this F NO over even more than allowing the deal to go through?
   418. smileyy Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:19 AM (#4011028)
I'm glad I have the purity of the amateurism and the professionalism and integrity of the NCAA to fall back on when the NBA disappoints me.
   419. smileyy Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:20 AM (#4011029)
I would hope the consequence of killing this deal is killing any deal for Paul until an owner is found. If that means letting him leave via FA, so be it.

I still think making the trade made the NBA a more valuable property than not making it.
   420. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:23 AM (#4011031)
I still think making the trade made the NBA a more valuable property than not making it.


Yep. A Paul/Bynum/Bryant centered-team would have been interesting and exciting, with both upside and downside, but not a numbing-forget-it-juggernaut. Paul vs. Rose in LA on Dec 25--great TV.
   421. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:23 AM (#4011032)
Getting an interesting take from my Laker fan father: He hates the deal and is glad the league stepped in for the block.
   422. JC in DC Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:24 AM (#4011033)
I would hope the consequence of killing this deal is killing any deal for Paul until an owner is found. If that means letting him leave via FA, so be it.


Well, that's just great for NO, isn't it? Get nothing back for your best player.
   423. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:25 AM (#4011034)
Getting an interesting take from my Laker fan father: He hates the deal and is glad the league stepped in for the block.

He won't be alone. But this also raises issues, assuming it gets blocked, of dealing with Gasol and Odom. Challenge #1,238,476 for Mike Brown.
   424. smileyy Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:26 AM (#4011036)
The league can consider it an opportunity to reflect on quality ownership. There are worse things than the cupboard being bare. It could be bare _and_ you could have a lot of shitty contracts.

Edit: The nanny seems enamored with one of my favorite adjectives.
   425. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:28 AM (#4011038)
Stern really has completely lost it.
   426. andrewberg Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:29 AM (#4011040)
I am no closet Laker hater, but this is a HORRIBLE move by the league. High entertainment value for someone who enjoys the nuts and bolts of the league, but a HORRIBLE precedent.

And not the smartest deal by the owners since I think there's a pretty good chance that LAL was getting Paul or Howard, and now they're getting the better, younger, healthier, more dominant player instead (possibly- though that's my gut).
   427. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:30 AM (#4011041)
Didn't they just have a lockout so that moves like that wouldn't be made?

And aren't the Hornets more appealing to an owner with Chris Paul on the roster?
   428. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:31 AM (#4011042)
And aren't the Hornets more appealing to an owner with Chris Paul on the roster?
Not when it's known Paul wants out.
   429. madvillain Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:32 AM (#4011044)
ha, from another board I read:

this trade wouldn't even have been vetoed in fantasy, let alone IRL
   430. smileyy Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:33 AM (#4011047)
[427] There is a 0% chance CP3 plays for the Hornets in the 2012-13 season. So that's kind of a moot point.

Not sure what you mean by "moves like that"? You mean a top-5 player going to the Lakers? I don't see how you prevent a trade (in the abstract), if the trade works out. Clearly a trade involving a league-owned team is a different story though.
   431. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:33 AM (#4011049)
Not when it's known Paul wants out.


Yes, but with him on the roster the new owner gets input into what the return is. Without, he's stuck with whatever they get.
   432. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:33 AM (#4011050)
Didn't they just have a lockout so that moves like that wouldn't be made?


No. They had a lockout so the owners could make more money.

And aren't the Hornets more appealing to an owner with Chris Paul on the roster?

Not necessarily. This will probably piss off Paul some as well, and he was almost certain to leave anyway. NO simply does not have much talent on the team with him
--that's mostly why he wants out.
   433. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:35 AM (#4011051)
Not sure what you mean by "moves like that"?


Players forcing teams to trade them to only one team, giving the league a handful of superstar loaded teams and many other teams that are a whole lot of nothing.

I'm not defending it, I'm honestly asking.
   434. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:35 AM (#4011052)
Yes, but with him on the roster the new owner gets input into what the return is.

Then why do the Hornets not have an owner already?
   435. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:41 AM (#4011058)
Players forcing teams to trade them to only one team, giving the league a handful of superstar loaded teams and a whole lot of dreck.


Paul didn't do this, based on what we know. The Lakers stuff started about him late last night, when LAC and GS refused to include quality young guards in deals to get him. The Lakers have no quality young guards, but they were it seems willing to surrender 2 good big men to get Paul. Paul's 1st choice was apparently the Knicks, but his camp said he realized they lacked assets. But this isn't like the Melo thing--Paul did say he would not sign an extension with LAC or GS--but that doesn't mean he was leaving those teams for sure. The NEW CBA makes it to his advantage not to re-sign until he hits FA.

Also, again: there is only one LeBron James, and there was only one summer of 2010.
   436. smileyy Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:42 AM (#4011059)
[433] I think its an inevitable consequence of free agency. There's 3 possible outcomes:

* NO lets Paul walk -- they get nothing
* NO trades Paul someplace he doesn't want to go -- they don't get much, because he's a 1-season rental
* NO trades Paul someplace he'll resign -- this presents a very limited set of options within the player's control
   437. andrewberg Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:44 AM (#4011060)
Smiley- I think that's dead on. What the owners wanted to do was to make it so that there wasn't a class of places that were worth wanting to go to that were above the unwashed masses of teams. They did not accomplish that so they're still mad.
   438. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:45 AM (#4011061)
I think its an inevitable consequence of free agency


It is just the cost of FA in a sport where superstars mean so much to a team. There is nothing to really do about it, except to say, "Guys as good as Chris Paul have to stay with their original teams until they are about 32 years old and not so good anymore."

Other things--hard cap, no max salary--would have some effect, but it is just the nature of the sport.
   439. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:46 AM (#4011063)
Also, again: there is only one LeBron James, and there was only one summer of 2010.


Didn't Carmelo Anthony essentially force his way to NY?
   440. smileyy Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:46 AM (#4011064)
The Chris Paul Rule: Teams losing All-NBA players to free agency are rewarded with a guaranteed supplemental lottery pick or picks.
   441. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:49 AM (#4011066)
I like seeing bad things happen to the Lakers, but this is an awful decision by the league. I hated the trade for the Hornets, but it was because the pieces don't make sense for their future, not that they weren't talented enough.

This is going to be a tough situation for the Lakers and Rockets.
   442. JC in DC Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:51 AM (#4011067)
Agree w/rr in 438. It's just the nature of the NBA, given the fairly strong players association. The league is better off staying out of it and letting ownership and good management deal with it. You can't punish LA for getting Paul. Anyone with the assets can go get him, and while I think LA needed Howard for the deal to make sense, they gave up a lot for Paul. That's about all you can ask for.
   443. smileyy Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:53 AM (#4011070)
It is just the cost of FA in a sport where superstars mean so much to a team


Partly because they make the team so good, partly because they keep it from being bad enough get to championship quality through the draft. One player means so much, but can only mean so much -- see LeBron in Cleveland.

The Minnesota Timberwolves should have poisoned Kevin Garnett for a year, and hoped for a Tim Duncan.

I've been a proponent of major changes to the draft to support rebuilding and the creation of more teams like OKC. Not every teams needs a pick in every round. Getting LeBron James shouldn't exclude you from getting a complementary piece within a year or two.
   444. madvillain Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:53 AM (#4011071)
It is just the cost of FA in a sport where superstars mean so much to a team. There is nothing to really do about it, except to say, "Guys as good as Chris Paul have to stay with their original teams until they are about 32 years old and not so good anymore."

Other things--hard cap, no max salary--would have some effect, but it is just the nature of the sport.


The NBA had a chance to help fix this by instituting some sort of "franchise" system by which teams can (if they would like) designate a franchise player who would be paid some their "true market value" and not be counted fully against the cap. NOLA could simply designate Paul a franchise player and pay him up to 25% (or so) more than any other team could offer. Obviously it wouldn't solve all the inherent inequity in the NBA markets, but it would help quite a bit if smaller markets could tell superstars: "Hey, stay here, we'll franchise you, you'll get paid a lot more than anywhere else, and since we have the cap exception on your salary, we can afford to get you some help".
   445. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:55 AM (#4011073)
Didn't Carmelo Anthony essentially force his way to NY?


First, James didn't "force" his way anywhere. He took a light paycut and left as an FA after seven years. The optics/narrative pissed off millions of people, but all James really did was decide to play with his buddies after playing in Cleveland for seven full seasons. He handled it foolishly, but what he did is not that big of a deal except for teh fact that James is one of the ten or so greatest talents in NBA history, and he is right squack in his prime. And he happens to be good friends with Dwyane Wade.

Carmelo Anthony is not LeBron James. When that deal went down, Denver immediately got hot, their fans got giddy, and many NYK fans were very lukewarm about it. Anthony is very good, but he is not a true, elite superstar.

James' FA was what it was because he is one of the ten or so greatest talents in NBA history and he is right squack in his prime. And he happens to be good friends with Dwyane Wade.
   446. smileyy Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:56 AM (#4011075)
[444] I think you need more revenue sharing to make that work, too. They have real money issues, not just cap space problems. Maybe that was more their ownership, though.
   447. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:58 AM (#4011076)
First, James didn't "force" his way anywhere.


I never said he did. And you're assuming, despite me never saying a word about LeBron, that I have a problem or something with him going to Miami. I don't.
   448. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:00 AM (#4011078)
The NBA had a chance to help fix this by instituting some sort of "franchise" system by which teams can (if they would like) designate a franchise player who would be paid some their "true market value" and not be counted fully against the cap


I have mentioned that a few times; that is one thing that small-market fans really want. But you can frame it the other way:

"Stay here in this city you don't like on this crappy team you have been on for seven years or forego tens of millions of dollars. Your call."

The players wouldn't go for that. You can argue that they should, but I don't really think so.

The Chris Paul Rule: Teams losing All-NBA players to free agency are rewarded with a guaranteed supplemental lottery pick or picks.


I have thought about something like that. Not sure how it would work in practice, but it has some merit.
   449. madvillain Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:03 AM (#4011084)
Anthony is very good, but he is not a true, elite superstar.


I'm bored, how many consensus "superstars" do we have in the NBA right now?

Howard
Lebron
Wade
Paul
Dirk
Kobe
Rose
Durant

Griffin will probably join that list soon. Certainly this is subjective. By WS, Pau deserves a spot on the list as well.

I have mentioned that a few times; that is one thing that small-market fans really want. But you can frame it the other way:

"Stay here in this city you don't like on this crappy team you have been on for seven years or forego tens of millions of dollars. Your call."


Good point. From a freedom of movement perspective it hurts the players. On the other hand, I think the current max contract is a joke, and should be ripped to shreds. Pay guys what they are worth, and in the NBA you have, at any given time, 10 or so superstars whose worth is magnitudes greater than any and every other player(s).
   450. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:04 AM (#4011086)
I never said he did. And you're assuming, despite me never saying a word about LeBron, that I have a problem or something with him going to Miami. I don't.


Not assuming anything. But you seemed to suggest the James situation in the "dreck/nothing/superstar loaded teams" line, and that has been the standard narrative used by a lot of people.

The Knicks are not loaded. That is why their fans here are so excited about the possibility of getting Tyson Chandler.
   451. smileyy Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:06 AM (#4011088)
I'm not sure I put Kobe on that list anymore.
   452. The District Attorney Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:08 AM (#4011090)
Max Kellerman tweets:
NBA'd never kill CP3 deal if one of those bitter, small market owners who tried to sabotage season traded for him. Losers aiming at Lakers.
Shorter Kellerman: "I now work in Los Angeles."

Nate Silver tweets:
The CP3 trade looked like a win for the Hornets. But Stern kills for whiny GM's who can't beat the Lakers. What a joke.
Shorter Silver: I... am not sure.

Marc Stein:
Chris Paul fuming and exploring legal options w/NBPA director Billy Hunter to fight blocked deal
   453. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:16 AM (#4011096)
Well, like I earlier: I expected some surprises. "Paul gets traded to Lakers and league kills deal" qualifies for me.

We will see if killed means killed over the next day or so, I guess.
   454. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:22 AM (#4011101)
I want to see an 8 team trade involving 26 players and 15 draft picks that satisfies enough owners, just for the hilarity of it.
   455. The District Attorney Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:25 AM (#4011103)
Woj:
League source on killed deal: "...(Stern) wasn't going to let Chris Paul dictate where he wanted to go."
   456. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:31 AM (#4011105)
At least we have something to talk about again.
   457. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:32 AM (#4011106)
At least we have something to talk about again.


Stern may need to kill the thread. Too many big-market fans here. He is not going to let us dictate where the conversation goes.
   458. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:36 AM (#4011108)
Simmons had several tweets on the subject, but this is the one I liked the best:

Next up for the NBA: vetoing the giant dump that the Celtics took on Rajon Rondo this week.
   459. smileyy Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:36 AM (#4011109)
Stern is lucky he just got a CBA signed.
   460. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:36 AM (#4011110)
NEW ORLEANS -- The NBA, as owners of the New Orleans Hornets, won't trade All-Star guard Chris Paul to the Los Angeles Lakers.

NBA spokesman Mike Bass says: "It's not true that the owners killed the deal, the deal was never discussed at the Board of Governors meeting and the league office declined to make the trade for basketball reasons."

The Los Angeles Lakers trade to obtain New Orleans Hornets point guard Chris Paul for Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom hit a snag Thursday night, sources tell ESPN.com's Marc Stein.

______


http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/7333285/los-angeles-lakers-deal-acquire-chris-paul-off
   461. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:36 AM (#4011111)
League source on killed deal: "...(Stern) wasn't going to let Chris Paul dictate where he wanted to go."

Then why design the CBA they way they just agreed to .... today?
   462. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:37 AM (#4011112)
NBA spokesman Mike Bass says: "It's not true that the owners killed the deal, the deal was never discussed at the Board of Governors meeting and the league office declined to make the trade for basketball reasons."

What do you guys think? Is this true, or is it spin? Sounds like spin to me, but WTF do I know?
   463. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:39 AM (#4011113)
I have just changed the name of my fantasy team to "Basketball Reasons."
   464. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:41 AM (#4011114)
Spin. Also, "basketball reasons" just went from zero to meme like that.
   465. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:42 AM (#4011115)
And speaking of fantasy teams...

BBTF league: 16 teams max (10 right now); 14-man rosters; scoring based on Hollinger's Game Score:
(Points x 1.0) + (FGM x 0.4) + (FGA x -0.7) + ((FTA-FTM) x -0.4) + (OREB x 0.7) + (DREB x 0.3) + (STL x 1.0) + (AST x 0.7) + (BLK x 0.7) + (PF x -0.4) + (TO x -1.0)
League is #28232; PW is albright
   466. smileyy Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:42 AM (#4011116)
Basketball Reasons has no upside and a terrible contract anyway.
   467. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:45 AM (#4011118)
Basketball Reasons has no upside and a terrible contract anyway.

But does he have topside?
   468. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:45 AM (#4011119)
Sounds like spin to me,


Yep.

You can say the deal sucks for NO if you like, but this wasn't Odom, Blake, and Ebanks for Paul. It was Odom + an All-Star big, and apparently came about only after LAC and GS respectively, refused to include Gordon and Curry in deals that Demps was ready to make.

No one should (or is going to) feel bad for the Lakers FO or fanbase, but to me, this sort of means, if they actually want to be consistent, that:

1. Paul should have to stay in NO until they find an owner.

2. The Lakers should simply not be allowed to acquire Dwight Howard via trade.

Yes, I know that the league doesn't own Orlando, and people can certainly disagree with me. I am obviously biased here.
   469. andrewberg Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:47 AM (#4011121)
There are two problems with the max deal underpaying stars- if the amounts are not that different, the incentive to stay in one place diminishes. Also, if they're paid below market value, they want to try to recoup some of that lost income and can do better by branding themselves in front of the cameras and bright lights.
   470. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:47 AM (#4011122)
Spin. Also, "basketball reasons" just went from zero to meme like that.


I'm calling out of work tomorrow for "basketball reasons."
   471. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:48 AM (#4011124)
This really comes down to the NBA, through the lockout vs. the players, postponing the fight between large markets and small.

Well, David, you beat the players. Now it's time to turn around and face the owners...
   472. Into the Void Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:49 AM (#4011125)
Stern may need to kill the thread. Too many big-market fans here. He is not going to let us dictate where the conversation goes.


He keeps crashing Forum Blue And Gold too!
   473. andrewberg Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:52 AM (#4011126)
The funny thing is that the skewed valuation probably comes out of Morey's evil computers, which I would trust over a cabal of owners 9 days a week.
   474. tshipman Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:52 AM (#4011127)
It is absolutely ridiculous that the NBA can dictate to whom a team can or cannot trade a player. Obviously, I am a Lakers fan, so I am somewhat biased, but I like to think that I would have the same reaction for a trade to the Knicks.

This quote:
(Stern) wasn't going to let Chris Paul dictate where he wanted to go.


Reinforces that "plantation owner" mindset quote.
   475. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:57 AM (#4011133)
The NBA really did a good job arranging the Hornets situation so that their transactions would go smoothly. This doesn't look bad at all.

And I'm only partly kidding when I say that if Chris Paul goes to Boston for Rondo, David Stern will end up in the East River. Wearing Kareem goggles.
   476. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:01 AM (#4011137)
And I'm only partly kidding when I say that if Chris Paul goes to Boston for Rondo, David Stern will end up in the East River. Wearing Kareem goggles.

If it were 1962, you know Red would figure out a way to make it happen.
   477. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:06 AM (#4011140)
Hollinger says the NBA "saved the Lakers from themselves" but royally screwed NO and HOU. Don't know that I agree--I think Hollinger is, again, often too linear and is always too wedded to PER.

He also says that there is no way a Bynum-centered deal lands Howard, but, echoing Simmons, that Bynum and Gasol MIGHT get Howard.

Thinks the owners were motivated by "displaced anger."

Tweets from Odom and Paul already out.
   478. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:12 AM (#4011143)
Hollinger:
Bynum will be suspended for the first five games this season after belting J.J. Barea in the playoffs, meaning the Lakers were looking at an opening night frontcourt of Derrick Caracter and Luke Walton.
   479. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:16 AM (#4011145)
meaning the Lakers were looking at an opening night frontcourt of Derrick Caracter and Luke Walton.


Sure. And they were also looking at having Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant as offensive options in the 4th quarter of playoff games.
   480. The District Attorney Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:17 AM (#4011148)
Sam Amick:
Powerful point just made to me: if Stern did this yesterday, deal would not have been ratified by players today. Poisonous potential here.

Woj knows drama:
To listen to the GM's, coaches, players, agents reaching out to me tonight: I think the NBA has changed forever with Stern's act tonight.
   481. The District Attorney Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:41 AM (#4011161)
Rachel Nichols:
ESPN's Stan Verrett reporting Chris Paul will not show at Hornet's camp Friday
   482. Into the Void Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:45 AM (#4011163)
If Paul doesn't show up for camp things are going to get really ugly, which sucks not only in that we won't get to watch him play basketball, but because he seems like one of the league's genuinely good guys and now he's caught in this mess.
   483. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:48 AM (#4011165)
I think, in the end, the trade goes through.
   484. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:48 AM (#4011166)
Wouldn't it be something if the players reacted to this by striking?
   485. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:49 AM (#4011167)
I think, in the end, the trade goes through.


Could be.
   486. Norcan Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:56 AM (#4011173)
There is so much chaos. Personally I'm enjoying it. Never in wildest dreams after stewing about Paul going to the Lakers did I think Stern would intervene. Even now I'm frightful he's going to have a change of heart.

I can't say the Lakers pulled one over on the Hornets. They were giving up a lot and changing their identity and if they weren't also going to be able to trade for Howard, it wasn't a definite that they were going to be a better overall team. But the Hornets? What the hell was Demps thinking? As a Celtics fan, I'm not saying he should have happily taken the Rondo plus overrated young players but getting a bunch of good but not great players and topping out as a 6th seed for a few seasons before having to fully rebuild is a horrible return for a MVP-caliber player. In a three team deal in which two of the top ten players in the league were traded, he was going to get none of them. He got bailed out.
   487. Norcan Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:04 AM (#4011175)
I am no closet Laker hater, but this is a HORRIBLE move by the league. High entertainment value for someone who enjoys the nuts and bolts of the league, but a HORRIBLE precedent.


I don't think there is any precedent established here. Technically, he didn't veto the trade as a commissioner but as sort of the legal guardian of the Hornets. This situation is unlikely to ever come up again or at least it won't anytime soon.
   488. The District Attorney Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:04 AM (#4011176)
Woj Woj Woj:
Hornets general manager Dell Demps is “disconsolate” over the heavy-handed move from the commissioner’s office, a source told Y! Sports. Demps considered resigning his job on Thursday, league sources said, and had to be talked out of it. The Hornets had scored a terrific deal for Paul, a trade that was lauded by some of Demps’ peers throughout the league. Officials involved in the trade talks said the league office was consulted throughout the negotiations, and there was never an indication Demps didn’t have the power to make a deal. In fact, several teams negotiating with New Orleans to get Paul asked the league office, and were told Demps had full authority to execute a trade.

Stern listened to enraged owners on Thursday insist this trade went against the entire reason the owners pushed for the lockout, that nothing had changed, and yet it was Stern who made the extraordinary decision to cancel the deal. Demps tried to talk him out of it, league officials said, but Stern was absolute in his desire to kill the trade.

Paul had listed the Lakers as one of his preferred destinations, and it became a more clear choice for him on Thursday after the New York Knicks moved to the brink of completing a four-year, $58 million contract for free-agent center Tyson Chandler...

As one rival executive with strong ties to the league office said, “Stern cared about two things: Selling that franchise for the best possible price; and showing the players that they weren’t going to dictate where teams could trade them. But now, there’s no way that the league can allow Chris Paul to be traded at all, otherwise Stern is basically deciding where one of the top players in the league is going versus having any fair process.”...

an NBA executive who had periodic talks with New Orleans throughout the process [said] “Now, they’re saying that Dell is an idiot, that he can’t do it his job. [Expletive] this whole thing. David’s drunk on power, and he doesn’t give a [expletive] about the players, and he doesn’t give a [expletive] about the hundreds of hours the teams put into make that deal.

“How do the Lakers explain this to Odom? How does Houston deal with the guys it just tried to trade? Scola and Martin are going to be pissed at them, and who knows how long that takes to get over? Explain to me how the league kills this Pau Gasol deal, but allows Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol?

“To me, this makes the league feel like it’s rigged, that Stern just does whatever Stern wants to do. He’s messed up the competitive balance of this league a lot worse by killing the deal, because you’ve completely destroyed the planning that New Orleans, Houston did and left them in shambles over this. I’ve never been so discouraged about this league, never so down.

“I mean, come on: Chris Paul is leaving New Orleans in 66 games. He’s gone. And what’s Dell Demps, and that franchise, going to have to show for it?”
   489. stubbyc Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:04 AM (#4011177)
I think, in the end, the trade goes through.


Doubtful. I don't think the Hornets are particularly enamored with Gasol which means the Rockets need to be involved. The Rockets make this deal not just for Gasol, but also because it saves them enough to offer Nene the max. If they amnesty Thabeet, they can also resign Hayes or upgrade one of their wings. Nene and Hayes and every other big man will probably be gone by the time this deal could get back on track.

The Rockets aren't "going for it" with Gasol as the centerpiece. I think this version of the deal is dead.
   490. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:07 AM (#4011180)
I think NO deals Paul somewhere before the season starts (so as to not cost the franchise yet more in value, 'cause he'll leave soon enough anyway), but am not sure how that would work.

What a disaster.
   491. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:10 AM (#4011181)
Lot of cognitive dissonance out there on this thing--and some on this here thread.
   492. Yardape Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:12 AM (#4011182)
Obviously, I am a Lakers fan, so I am somewhat biased, but I like to think that I would have the same reaction for a trade to the Knicks.


I strongly dislike the Lakers but I share your reaction.
   493. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:17 AM (#4011185)
I saw, within a few minutes time, one journalist saying that Stern had no spine and had been complete overrun by the owners - and another saying that this was all Stern's doing.
Also, is it just me, or did journalists start liking the deal more for the Hornets / less for the Lakers after the deal was vetoed?

Woj/488 is a good read.
   494. Norcan Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:21 AM (#4011186)
Stern cared about two things: Selling that franchise for the best possible price; and showing the players that they weren’t going to dictate where teams could trade them.


How is he going to show that players can't dictate where they want to play? By revoking one deal under very unique circumstances? This changes nothing.

I think it was a bad deal for New Orleans but it's just my opinion. Apparently Demp's peers think differently. I don't understand why Stern killed this deal but at the same time, he doesn't have to give a reason. It could be because that he hates Paul's guts or was pained that Gasol didn't want to go to Houston and it would all be valid.
   495. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:23 AM (#4011188)
I think NO deals Paul (so as to not cost the franchise yet more in value, 'cause he'll leave soon enough anyway), but am not sure how that would work.


Well, unless Paul and/or the Lakers actually sue the league, I think it just "works" in that the NBA is the owner of the Hornets, so it/they/Stern can veto or approve a trade just like Glen Taylor or Wyc Grousbeck could.

Lakers fans and others will howl loud and long about it if Paul goes elsewhere, but I can't really see Paul or the Lakers suing the league when it comes down to it. Certainly this on top of more revenue sharing is going to royally piss off the Buss family, but in the end, I think it will be what it is. I suppose the threat of a lawsuit or too much media blowback might change things...

And, for people talking about the merits of the deal, Norcan being the most recent, again: too linear. Demps might have had some kind of plan to move Odom, Scola, and Martin on to other teams. Hollinger's crack about Caracter and Walton showed how he was doing the same thing.

On the day Danny Ainge got Ray Allen, a lot of Boston fans on the net were pissed off--wondering what Ainge was thinking. They found out soon enough.
   496. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:29 AM (#4011192)
Also, is it just me, or did journalists start liking the deal more for the Hornets / less for the Lakers after the deal was vetoed?
Yes, but only sort of. The initial reports only had the Hornets getting Odum and Bynum. Then, no, it's Gasol instead of Bynum. I don't feel like digging through Twitter timelines, but I recall about an hour passed before word broke of the Rockets' contributions. Then I looked at Odom's contract and realized why it's so valuable. I can't answer for the rest of humanity, but with details emerging my opinion changed from Lakers win big to I see the merits for everyone here.
   497. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:31 AM (#4011193)
Also, is it just me, or did journalists start liking the deal more for the Hornets / less for the Lakers after the deal was vetoed?

__________________________________________

I think--and we saw this here--once it seemed real, people wanted to see what would happen: how would the Lakers look going from the worst PG to the best and with a new system? How would they fill out the frontcourt? Could Bynum step up and stay healthy? Could Kobe share the ball? Would Pau bounce back strong, pissed off about the trade, and get Houston into post-season? Would Demps move the new guys to other teams? What happens with Howard now?

Those kinds of questions drive interest--and we always like new ones. Stern (or whoever) took those away.

Also, it again takes the focus OFF THE COURT, and EVERYONE is tired of that.
   498. Norcan Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:32 AM (#4011194)
On the day Danny Ainge got Ray Allen, a lot of Boston fans on the net were pissed off--wondering what Ainge was thinking. They found out soon enough.


The difference was that the KG rumor popped up almost simultaneously with the Ray Allen rumor. The whole thing turned into the WTF stage after the KG trade fell through and the Celtics still went through with the Allen trade but even then, it was possible to think that the KG trade could still happen and trading for Ray could help change his mind. There was concern but at least something was out there. Ainge had someone lined up.

If Demp's intention is to trade Scola and Martin for attractive young players and/or first round picks, I'm not sure he's going to pull it off. I think Scola and Martin are fine fine players but they aren't worth promising young players and draft picks.
   499. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:35 AM (#4011197)
This situation is unlikely to ever come up again or at least it won't anytime soon.

This situation is going to come up again tomorrow. And every day until Paul is no longer a Hornet. And how is Stern going to justify which deal he took over the one he vetoed? If Stern actually killed the deal, this mess is just getting warmed up.

At the same time, the current story doesn't make a ton of sense. It was a steep price in talent for the Lakers. At the same time, it saw the Lakers dumping huge commitments on to the Hornets (directly and by way of Houston.) The Hornets payroll- with Odom, Scola, Dragic and Martin- would go up to almost 60 million. While the Lakers payroll number would drop by eight figures, leave only a long-term commitment to Bryant, and leave them without a power forward not named Walton?

I think the trade does go through but that the pieces are somewhat different than has been reported. I'd be a little surprised if the current narrative is the actual one.
   500. Into the Void Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:39 AM (#4011199)
Dan Gilbert's email to Stern. According to him it would be a "travesty" for the Lakers to get one of the league's best player while saving $20 million in salaries and $21 million in luxury taxes.
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