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Friday, December 02, 2011

NBA THREAD DECEMBER: POST-LOCKOUT

With the lockout over, I estimate that there may be more than 10-12 Primates who want to talk about the NBA, and with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: fractional reserve banking, and Tim Tebow.

rr Posted: December 02, 2011 at 12:26 AM | 3254 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: general

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   601. Starlin of the Slipstream (TRHN) Posted: December 09, 2011 at 08:57 PM (#4011739)
It sounds like the old "I know, but I can't tell you" meme.


Me too. My hope was he is that Howie will set us straight regarding how completely off base these speculations are... though that strikes me as unlikely given the "I can't tell you" part of the meme.
   602. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 09, 2011 at 08:58 PM (#4011740)
Am I missing something on DeAndre Jordan?


I think Dagoberto pretty much nails it. It's a combination of positional scarcity, so as a real non-terrible center Jordan is going to get paid, and the fact that Nene, Chandler, and the specter of Dwight have led a number of teams to focus on picking up a center now, meaning that he is, if not any team's number one choice for a center signing, very much in demand. He's also only 23, so there's plenty of room to imagine he'll improve moving forward.
   603. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: December 09, 2011 at 09:24 PM (#4011779)
Re: Howie's post

HowardBeckNYT: RT @NYDNInterNets: League source says report about meeting in Miami between Prokhorov, King and Dwight Howard is not correct.


I'd assume this has to be it. Can't be the CP3 stuff, everyone seems to have virtually the same story (maybe not Cuban's part of it, although supposedly he said he voted against the CBA).
   604. Norcan Posted: December 09, 2011 at 09:24 PM (#4011782)
On the Big Baby/Bass front, I really like the move for the C's. Bass is exactly the kind of big man they need. I'm not sure why Orlando is doing it, but they've been underusing Bass for a while, so I guess it's not shocking.


I like the deal too. They basically exchanged Davis for his better shooting, better conditioned and more athletic twin. As for why Orlando did it, apparently it was because Howard wanted them to. When it comes to trying to convince your superstar to stick around, no expense or poor-shooting/non-rebounding big can be spared.

If Howard does stick around, it's one of the best situations for Davis to play. If anyone can mitigate his awful rebounding, it's Howard. It's possible that Davis' errant shooting will also allow Howard to boost his own offensive rebounding numbers.

Today I feel grateful to Howard. During those cold dark nights I had to see Davis try to show the world that he's a star in the making with a deadly 19 foot jumper, I never thought this day would come.
   605. andrewberg Posted: December 09, 2011 at 09:29 PM (#4011786)
Let me engage in some wild speculation about Dwight: maybe his agent was meeting with Proky and that's why he replaced him with his dad? In a way, it would be a somewhat defensible way to circumvent the rules- have the agent to the recon work on whether the team is ready to pay, etc, tell them Dwight is ready to go, then fire him the next day. The agent can't really bite back because his reputation would be in the toilet and he would be admitting his role in breaking the rules. Dwight can always say he didn't know his agent was going to do it and fired him when he did. Nets can say they were inquiring about a different player and didn't say anything about Dwight.
   606. Norcan Posted: December 09, 2011 at 09:39 PM (#4011796)
Apparently Richard Jefferson is in camp with San Antonio. I guess they've changed course and aren't going to amnesty him now that Battier, Butler and Prince decided to sign elsewhere. That must be kind of awkward.

____


I think the Clippers should put in a bid for Billups but with Mo Wiliams already there, they might not. But c'mon, it's Billups, the guy can still play and would be a steal for whatever small bid it would take to get him. Plus it keeps him away from the Heat. He needs to be claimed.
   607. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: December 09, 2011 at 09:48 PM (#4011800)
It's possible that Davis' errant shooting will also allow Howard to boost his own offensive rebounding numbers.

Heh.

I think the Clippers should put in a bid for Billups but with Mo Wiliams already there, they might not. But c'mon, it's Billups, the guy can still play and would be a steal for whatever small bid it would take to get him. Plus it keeps him away from the Heat. He needs to be claimed.

Isn't Billups exactly what the Heat were hoping they were getting last year with Bibby? BTW, I see Chalmers has re-upped there.
   608. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:04 PM (#4011818)
I like the deal too. They basically exchanged Davis for his better shooting, better conditioned and more athletic twin. As for why Orlando did it, apparently it was because Howard wanted them to. When it comes to trying to convince your superstar to stick around, no expense or poor-shooting/non-rebounding big can be spared.

This Celtics fan also likes it. Not a game changer, but I am so glad I don't have to watch Davis fire up jumpers he can't make anymore. Or, wtaching him try to go into the post only to have his shot immediately returned to him. That guy was AWFUL in the playoffs last year - painfully so. Also, a backup big who rebounds! A nice move.

Oh, and congrats, Jimmy!
   609. steagles Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:10 PM (#4011823)
massive news out of philadelphia...tony battie has been resigned for 1 year.



also, there was something about negotiations with thaddeus young coming close to an end. he apparently wants to get into camp as soon as possible.
   610. Howie Menckel Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:16 PM (#4011827)
Sources don't generally lie through their teeth to reporters, because that's a burned bridge that does them no good.
The exception is when the stakes are VERY VERY high - and this is one of those times.
So I think we'll find that some of these reports result from just such burned bridges.

And no, I wouldn't question the fact of a Chris Paul near-trade. That much clearly happened/then didn't happen.
   611. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:16 PM (#4011828)
massive news out of philadelphia...tony battie has been resigned for 1 year.

There's your center!
   612. Norcan Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:17 PM (#4011830)
Isn't Billups exactly what the Heat were hoping they were getting last year with Bibby? BTW, I see Chalmers has re-upped there.


Yeah I think so, a three point proficient guard with playoff experience. Billups provides the added bonuses of not being as big a liability on defense and still possessing the very crafty, if aggravating, ability to get to the line a lot. I'd like to say that the new rules changes will adversely affect Billups' ability to draw so many free throws but if I remember correctly, the change in shooting fouls concerned drives. Presumably Billups will still be allowed to butt check and pump fake his way to the line.
   613. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:20 PM (#4011831)
Norcan, I was asking you a basic question, because I didn't know the answer. Addressing some of the other points:

1. I have said in multiple posts, to you, and to others, that a reasonable argument can be made that Demps made a bad deal.
2. I never drew any conclusions about your take on the deal cancellation. You did, however say the following:

That Stern was acting a NO's "legal guardian"--which implies he was looking out for them in a positive way.
"What was Demps thinking?"
That you were "frightful" that Stern would change his mind and let Paul go to the Lakers.

Also, unlike basically everybody else on the thread, you haven't really criticized Stern much here--which is a very sharp contrast to your rhetoric directed at the owners/Stern during and immediately after the lockout. Finally, you have not, that I recall, ever said "The NBA should not have done this", which most people, except J Sosa, have said on the thread in one form or another.

I don't like you, and you, based on that previous post and others, don't like me. But you are a smart guy when it comes to basketball, so I wanted to see if you were going against the grain (both here and in the MSM--I have not seen many informed people saying "The league really needed to stop this deal--Stern really stepped up. Good stuff.") and supporting Stern's decision here--not whether he could do it legally, but whether it was the right thing to do for the NBA as an entity and in terms of league PR/business practices.
   614. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:27 PM (#4011840)
Brain...
I don't like you, and you, based on that previous post and others, don't like me...
But let's just do this and I'll get back to killing you with beer. (Deal!)

/Homer'd
   615. andrewberg Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:27 PM (#4011841)
Sources don't generally lie through their teeth to reporters, because that's a burned bridge that does them no good.
The exception is when the stakes are VERY VERY high - and this is one of those times.
So I think we'll find that some of these reports result from just such burned bridges.


Seems to imply that whoever saw Howard with Proky didn't, and that someone like Otis Smith ran with the fabrication.
   616. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:31 PM (#4011844)
But let's just do this and I'll get back to killing you with beer.


Heh. Norcs and I always have trouble when the Lakers and the Celtics are involved in something, and people on this thread are into Metta--but not Meta.
   617. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:40 PM (#4011851)
The exception is when the stakes are VERY VERY high - and this is one of those times.
So I think we'll find that some of these reports result from just such burned bridges.


Fine, but if you don't actually know, then that doesn't really help us much. I usually put qualifiers on my assertions (like I did on the Cuban thing) but I assume that everybody here is aware enough to know that we are not dealing with complete information and things may change. All we can go on is what we have.

However, I do think your wording about the stakes being VERY VERY high raises a macropoint that I have hit on before: the nature of the sport in the NBA is such that when one of these Top-10 guys changes teams, or wants to change teams, and even more when 2 or 3 of them do, the entire landscape of the league and years of play/revenue/hope for individual franchises are both permanently altered. And in that context, with so much on the lin, people do and say stupid shitt--and millions of other people (fans and media)care about the stupid shitt that is done and said. The Decision. ComicSansBoy's guarantee. Cancelling the Paul deal. And now, perhaps, actual tampering.
   618. Norcan Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:43 PM (#4011857)
I don't like you, and you, based on that previous post and others, don't like me. But you are a smart guy when it comes to basketball, so I wanted to see if you were going against the grain (both here and in the MSM--I have not seen many informed people saying "The league really needed to stop this deal--Stern really stepped up. Good stuff.") and supporting Stern's decision here--not whether he could do it legally, but whether it was the right thing to do for the NBA as an entity and in terms of league PR/business practices.


Just to let you know, I don't like or dislike you. This is just posting about basketball on the internet on a baseball site. I really don't have much feelings either way. I do have to say that for someone who gets offended easily, you sure like to deliver snark or the promise of it anyway.

Do I think Stern should have overturned the deal? Of course not. He had no merit. I think it was a bad trade for New Orleans but bad trades get made all the time. Orlando made one just hours ago. I just didn't know as an avowed Stern hater that I had to strongly denounce him. But here it is: Stern is a bad man who made an embarrassing decision and he continues to make it worse by being stubborn. Do I want Stern to overturn his decision however? Of course not. I dislike the guy but I'm a Celtics fan more than a Stern hater. Even though the Lakers are not making out like bandits, I still don't want them to get Paul. And it's not about holding out hope that the Celtics could get him either. I was joking about it. That ship has sailed. Objectively, Stern had no right to intervene and the Lakers set things up beautifully to not only get Paul but eventually Howard. I commend them for that. But this is sports. Why would I root for that?
   619. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:53 PM (#4011872)
The accusations against Cuban are that he pulled the owner's version of the Durant, et.al's "rip" move. A distasteful, competitive-balance upsetting play that's within the rules that helps his team's chance to win. The downside to this one is that its directly impacting a guy's career.


Not just one guy: Odom, Gasol, Paul, Scola, Martin, Dragic--and, arguably, their (as of today) teammates. And arguably their coaches, their agents, etc.

This is partly the Lakers fan in me talking, but Chandler is gone to NY now. Is Cuban looking to land Paul or Howard for himself? Some sources have said so. And Cuban doesn't own a small-market/cold-weather lottery team. He runs the NBA Champs, a team with a massive payroll. That is why I would cut him less slack on this than I would cut a guy like Gilbert, Kohl, or Taylor.
   620. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:56 PM (#4011874)
rumors and signings (some not new)...
gary forbes to sign offer sheet w/ toronto (2 yr + a t-opt)
lil buckets gets 5/40 from sac
chuck hayes signs for 4/21.x w/ sac
jerebko 4/16 w/ detroit
grant hill $6.5 w/ phoenix
bassy telfair - min w/ phoenix
heat keep juwan and james jones
shannon brown to pho 1/3.5m
keyon to bos for a 2nd rd pick
kaponon gets min w/ lal
roger mason gets min w/ dc
tinsley gets min w/ utah
tj ford gets min w/ sa
magliore gets min/ w tor (first canadian raptor)
q6 gets min w/ bos
jason collins gets, contributes min w/ atl
pendergraph gets 2 yrs at the min w/ indy
pietrus to tor for a 2nd rd pick
gilbert to be amnestied.

Is Cuban looking to land Paul or Howard for himself?
i doubt it.
   621. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:59 PM (#4011876)
Aaaaaand, everyone is tweeting the CP3/Lakers deal now is being renegotiated.
   622. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:01 PM (#4011881)
i doubt it.


Maybe not, but I can't see him just humming a happy tune and telling Carlisle to put Brendan Haywood back at the 5 while the Lakers supposedly set themselves up to land two future HOFers in their mid-20s. But even if you're right, it doesn't look too good from here.
   623. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:03 PM (#4011882)
Aaaaaand, everyone is tweeting the CP3/Lakers deal now is being renegotiated.


Not a surprise. Maybe Stern and Gilbert will be OK with it if the Lakers take Trevor Ariza back. MWP and Mardi Gras--as Simmons likes to say, "this needs to happen."
   624. andrewberg Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:06 PM (#4011885)
lil buckets gets 5/40 from sac


That's the first one that has seemed completely crazy to me. What is he, their third string SG? Backup at best.
   625. jmurph Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:07 PM (#4011887)


Not a surprise. Maybe Stern and Gilbert will be OK with it if the Lakers take Trevor Ariza back.


Sweet christ, I can't believe I'm cheering for the Lakers to get Paul, but it really has to go through. Now I have to somehow convince myself to cheer against him for the next however many years. Alas.
   626. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:10 PM (#4011892)
Thornton is 24, averaged almost 20ppg in a brief starting stint, has a career PER of 17. it's a little more money than i expected, but not crazy - i'd be comfortable with him as a starter in some systems - at minimum, he's a stud backup.
   627. steagles Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:13 PM (#4011894)
chuck hayes signs for 4/21.x w/ sac
why?


he contributes almost nothing on offense, he's not a top-tier rebounder, he doesn't block shots. there has to be a better use for 5mm a year.
   628. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:18 PM (#4011897)
Ainge's small moves--Bass and Dooling--were solid.

Don't like Kapono signing or Butler signing.

Not as down on Thornton move as berg--figure it sets up something else. Will wait. Maybe Jimmer to Utah? ;-0
   629. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:20 PM (#4011899)
Sweet christ, I can't believe I'm cheering for the Lakers to get Paul,


Yeah, but they would be losing Gasol and Odom. Like I said, I can see people going apeshit and throwing things through windows if the Lakers got Howard and Paul. Their getting Paul for two big guys who can still really play shouldn't throw anyone--even the Commish--into a shitfit.
   630. andrewberg Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:20 PM (#4011900)
Thornton is 24, averaged almost 20ppg in a brief starting stint,


Wasn't that all with Tyreke out? I guess they have to spend somewhere to meet that salary floor.
   631. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:22 PM (#4011904)
Brandan Wright to dal
Jamal Crawford rumored to chi in s/t

Hayes - great d, vg good pass, + intang
Also from that area - he had a similar offer from MIN (aDelman)
   632. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:30 PM (#4011920)
Chris Broussard tweets that the NBAPA has told the NBA that if a suitable Chris Paul trade is not made by Monday, it will pursue other options, including litigation.

*grabs popcorn, sits back*
   633. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:31 PM (#4011922)
Thornton was pretty solid w new Orleans too
   634. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:31 PM (#4011924)
I posted the number yesterday, before the Hayes and Thorton deals I think the Kings were about $18mil or so below the floor, not counting draft picks. They still might have to sign another person or two.

---

Luther Head is at Bulls camp, the Bulls have asked Bogans to leave (I made that sound better than it was, he'll probably still be back just to torture Matt and I), and I see the Pistons are waiving Rip (not amnesty, buyout). I guess if I had to predict now, I bet he ends up on the Bulls. I'm not happy about that, but I'd rather have him than Bogans (until JRich has signed, I'm still holding out hope).
   635. steagles Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:31 PM (#4011925)
deepsixer3: Here we go #Sixers fans: @yungsmoove21 coming back for 5-year/$42 million contract (@wojyahoonba). That's just over $8mil per.



i'm absolutely ecstatic right now. i love watching thad play, and keeping him around for 5 years is great, but locking him in at ~8mm per year is amazing.
   636. andrewberg Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:35 PM (#4011934)
Thornton was pretty solid w new Orleans too


Oh yeah, I like him. Seems like an odd price/fit combo. I don't see how he'll have the opportunity to be worth $8m next year.
   637. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:38 PM (#4011937)
Rip bought out by detroit
   638. madvillain Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:40 PM (#4011939)
Apparently Keith Bogans was pulled off the practice floor today in Chicago. Seems a trade is imminent. Probably part of the rumored J. Crawford deal. If so, put me on board as HELL YEA! I posted the other night about how BlogaBull did a good run down on JCraw's improvement as a player as he ages. He's become more efficient and smarter, even as his athleticism has waned.

Now teams are gonna be punished for doubling Rose and Jamal can play backup PG, negating CJ Watson to emergency duty.
   639. rr Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:41 PM (#4011940)
Tweet said Vince Carter was waived.
   640. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:49 PM (#4011952)
Jamal Crawford rumored to chi in s/t

This rumor floated around a couple of days ago, and went away. Is it back again? For what?
   641. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:51 PM (#4011956)
Sorry, Andrew - I read you as meaning in the abstract initially - not value in a vacuum. I'm sure he'l play decent minutes but, yes, it'll be hard for him to to get on the court as much as he "should" for them at first.
(Note: also saw a 4/33 report - instead of 5/40 ... if SAC is smart, they frontloaded the thing, however many years are involved)

Not too shabby for Young, steagles - wonder what he'd've signed for as an UFA?

Daequan Cook stays w/ OKC for 2/7.5m. (Why Presti, why?)
Derrick Brown, 1 yr min w/ CHA
Justin Harper (2nder) - 2/1.2 or 1.3m guaranteed
Darius Morris signed w/ LAL
Earl Watson, 2yr w/ UTA (not ATL, as rumored)
Dalembert renounced.
   642. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:54 PM (#4011961)
Don't know, Moses - that's a rumor, not a done deal.
   643. steagles Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:59 PM (#4011965)
and in more sixers news, their training camp roster includes dwayne jones, antonio anderson, xavier silas and mike tisdale. there's not much upside with any of them, but anderson is a good defender on the wing, which could be useful, even if he's horrible on the other end of the floor.

jones (at one point at least) was a pretty good rim-defenders, which also could be useful, but he's a bit long in the tooth at this point.

tisdale is a 7 footer who plays like he's 5'9. i don't think there's much possible use for him, but i guess he could shavlik randolph himself into being an adequate player.

don't know much about silas, but he seemed to score a lot in college. and he improved each year, so i guess it's possible he could do something of consequence.

anyway, that's pretty much exactly what i was hoping for w/r/t camp bodies. none of them are going to be starters, but i could see them contributing in a limited role if called upon.

in total, i believe the sixers roster looks something like this, with spencer hawes the lone remaining free agent of consequence.
G: holiday, williams, turner, meeks, anderson, silas
F: iguodala, brand, young, speights, brackins, allen
C: vucevic, battie, jones, tisdale
   644. Into the Void Posted: December 10, 2011 at 12:01 AM (#4011972)
Have to figure the Bulls will go after Rip Hamilton.
   645. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: December 10, 2011 at 12:13 AM (#4011982)
tisdale is a 7 footer who plays like he's 5'9. i don't think there's much possible use for him, but i guess he could shavlik randolph himself into being an adequate player.

You're wrong about a lot of things a lot of the time, but this is the most wrong you've ever been. There is zero chance he ever comes anywhere near a useful player. He is a center that has to be weaker than Durant. He is the most easily intimidated big man of all time. He cannot rebound to save his life. He has a nice hook shot, but if he's bumped off his spot at all (my 4 month old could bump him off his spot) his shot is ruined. He's a good FT shooter, and he can knock down open jumpers. But he is so absolutely bad at everything else that makes the NBA a big man's game, he's literally wasting the Sixers time and money by them having to share their practice facilities with him, by having to wash his practice jerseys and have him drink their water, by having him breathe in oxygen that could be used by other players instead.
   646. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: December 10, 2011 at 12:22 AM (#4011998)
On Jamal/Bulls from ESPN Insider:

UPDATE: According to Alex Kennedy of HOOPSWORLD, "the Bulls remain very interested in Crawford. They've been in touch with him today and are still looking into sign-and-trade. Crawford wants to land in Chicago. If the Bulls can't trade for him, he'll likely sign with the Pacers, Hornets, Nets or Timberwolves."

---

Earlier in the week, Steve Kyler of HOOPSWORLD tweeted that a sign and trade of Jamal Crawford to the Bulls with Ronnie Brewer and parts coming back in return was "likely."

But Mike McGraw of the Daily Herald counters with this Thursday: "On rumored Jamal sign and trade, probably wishful thinking from Hawks/Jamal camp. Crawford is a Bulls candidate, but not trading Brewer for him."

The Bulls could still potentially outright sign Crawford if they don't trade for him, as he's on their list at the shooting guard position. But Crawford may be looking for more than the $5 million mid-level exception, which is the most the Bulls have to offer.
   647. rr Posted: December 10, 2011 at 12:27 AM (#4012000)
However, Cuban's rationale for blocking the trade is all about business.

"We just had a lockout, and one of the goals of the lockout was to say that small-market teams now have a chance to keep their players, and the rules were designed to give them that opportunity," Cuban said. "So to all of a sudden have a league-owned team trade their best player, particularly after having gone out and sold a ton of tickets in that market, that's not the kind of signal you want to send.

"Then, part two of that is all the rules of what you can and can't do under the new CBA weren't finalized until yesterday, so how do you really make a strategic decision until you know all the rules?"

Cuban has been trying for years to trade for Paul, the four-time All-Star point guard who dominated the Mavericks during the first round of the 2008 playoffs.


Nevertheless, Cuban admitted voting against the collective bargaining agreement. He hoped for a system that would allow the Mavericks to keep their championship team largely intact while maintaining some flexibility to make roster upgrades, as they'd done in the past.

Instead, the Mavs will lose Tyson Chandler, J.J. Barea, Caron Butler and probably DeShawn Stevenson after those players declined short-term contract offers from the team. As a result, the Mavs will be under the salary cap next summer for the first time in years, putting them in position to pursue a free-agent superstar such as Paul, Dwight Howard or Deron Williams.


http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/7335491/mark-cuban-opposed-chris-paul-la-lakers-deal-went-lockout-reason
   648. steagles Posted: December 10, 2011 at 12:31 AM (#4012004)
You're wrong about a lot of things a lot of the time, but this is the most wrong you've ever been. There is zero chance he ever comes anywhere near a useful player. He is a center that has to be weaker than Durant. He is the most easily intimidated big man of all time. He cannot rebound to save his life. He has a nice hook shot, but if he's bumped off his spot at all (my 4 month old could bump him off his spot) his shot is ruined. He's a good FT shooter, and he can knock down open jumpers. But he is so absolutely bad at everything else that makes the NBA a big man's game, he's literally wasting the Sixers time and money by them having to share their practice facilities with him, by having to wash his practice jerseys and have him drink their water, by having him breathe in oxygen that could be used by other players instead.
no, that sounds like just about exactly what i'm expecting. but i had the same expectation about shavlik randolph a few years ago, and after seeing him become a useful role player (until a knee injury ended his sixer career), i'm just really hesitant to completely write a guy off.
   649. steagles Posted: December 10, 2011 at 12:31 AM (#4012005)
You're wrong about a lot of things a lot of the time, but this is the most wrong you've ever been. There is zero chance he ever comes anywhere near a useful player. He is a center that has to be weaker than Durant. He is the most easily intimidated big man of all time. He cannot rebound to save his life. He has a nice hook shot, but if he's bumped off his spot at all (my 4 month old could bump him off his spot) his shot is ruined. He's a good FT shooter, and he can knock down open jumpers. But he is so absolutely bad at everything else that makes the NBA a big man's game, he's literally wasting the Sixers time and money by them having to share their practice facilities with him, by having to wash his practice jerseys and have him drink their water, by having him breathe in oxygen that could be used by other players instead.
no, that sounds like just about exactly what i'm expecting. but i had the same expectation about shavlik randolph a few years ago, and after seeing him become a useful role player (until a knee injury ended his sixer career), i'm just really hesitant to completely write a guy off.
   650. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 10, 2011 at 12:32 AM (#4012006)
As a result, the Mavs will be under the salary cap next summer for the first time in years, putting them in position to pursue a free-agent superstar such as Paul, Dwight Howard or Deron Williams.


Unless the Nets get Howard, I expect DWill to end up in Dallas. He's from Texas, still does a lot in the state I believe, and wants an owner willing to go all out to win.

Personally, I'd love to see him on the Thunder. Obviously he's a much better passer than Westbrook, yet still a very good scorer as well (unlike say Rondo).
   651. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 10, 2011 at 12:42 AM (#4012017)
Lin cut

Tisdale had a rough nbdl start but I can see him being usable eventually. Don't expect it, mind you...
   652. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 10, 2011 at 12:46 AM (#4012018)
Deron stays w the nets, I bet
   653. rr Posted: December 10, 2011 at 01:10 AM (#4012032)
I would say it also gives some idea of how good of a basketball deal New Orleans got


Missed this earlier.

It is debatable. If you want to use ESPN as your guide, check what noted Lakers fans Bill Simmons and John Hollinger had to say about the deal. The ESPN 5/5 was 100% against the league's decision and the panelists, none of whom is a Lakers fan except perhaps Larry Coon, were divided about who won the trade.

And the fact that it is debatable means that Stern and the owners are wrong, particularly if they gave Demps autonomy.*

Basically, I think it will go through but with some adjustments that effectively mean the Lakers won't be able to get Howard, too (not that they necessarily would have anyway).

*Demps is quoted as saying they are going back to the table and that "Yes, we've been given autonomy to make another trade."
   654. madvillain Posted: December 10, 2011 at 01:19 AM (#4012037)
Well, it's official (I jest) incarcerated bob is reporting Crawford to Bulls should be done within 24 hours. The guy is in the rumor business and has admitted as such. There is a lot of smoke about JCraw to Chicago right now, so while it seems nothing is a done deal, there are certainly talks in that direction ongoing.

Bulls fans online are such a spoiled / whiny bunch. I've already seen a couple, "we can't give up Ronnie Brewer for JCraw" type posts. Are you kidding me? Ronnie Brewer is an 8th man at best that has had problems staying healthy. Oh, also, he can't shoot and lets teams pack the lane against Rose. JCraw is a legit 2 starting 2 guard, you give up an 8th man every day of the week for that.
   655. rr Posted: December 10, 2011 at 01:27 AM (#4012044)
Hmmm. I was 90% sure the Bulls would get Richardson. Which teams do 'sources' say he is talking to?
   656. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: December 10, 2011 at 01:46 AM (#4012061)
Knicks stuff:
-Chandler deal is supposed to be a S&T but for a low salary guy according to Stein
-Knicks seem intent on giving the starting PG job to DWTDD but plan to run the offense through Melo...
   657. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 10, 2011 at 01:46 AM (#4012062)
Hey guys, haven't been around this week. My wife and I had our first kid last weekend, so things have been hectic. I've not been at work, so I'm not here to talk ball. Go figure.
Congrats, Jimmy! Looks like you and your wife talked ball nine months ago. >high-five self<

Objectively, Stern had no right to intervene and the Lakers set things up beautifully to not only get Paul but eventually Howard. I commend them for that. But this is sports. Why would I root for that?
This is pretty much what I'd expect from the Boston end of things. "It's wrong... but I'm okay with it."

EDIT: And I don't really blame them. If the Lakers had gotten Paul, there'd be all the incentive in the world for Howard to want to head west, and a Bryant-Paul-Howard combo would be absolutely frightening. The Stern ruling cuts the Lakers off at the knees, so if you hate the Lakers, you kick your principles to the side and laugh.
   658. Jimmy P Posted: December 10, 2011 at 01:59 AM (#4012074)
Bulls fans online are such a spoiled / whiny bunch. I've already seen a couple, "we can't give up Ronnie Brewer for JCraw" type posts. Are you kidding me? Ronnie Brewer is an 8th man at best that has had problems staying healthy. Oh, also, he can't shoot and lets teams pack the lane against Rose. JCraw is a legit 2 starting 2 guard, you give up an 8th man every day of the week for that.

I like the trade from talent standpoint. I don't like it from a chemistry standpoint. I can't see how Crawford and Rose play together, they both dominate the ball. I really hope I'm wrong.

Just read on thd Oregonian that Oden had yet another setback and is now unlikely to play this season. I really feel bad for him.
   659. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 10, 2011 at 02:21 AM (#4012087)
Dunno if this got posted yet, but Lamar Odom left Laker camp today after 90 minutes. He's not happy.
   660. steagles Posted: December 10, 2011 at 02:25 AM (#4012092)
Objectively, Stern had no right to intervene and the Lakers set things up beautifully to not only get Paul but eventually Howard


you know, a bynum for howard trade would be really interesting. i mean, the magic would be absolutely dreadful after the trade, but that'd be a good thing, since they'd immediately be in the running for a top tier talent in the draft. and since they'd have bynum, that would likely be 2 core pieces that could be a part of their next contending team. bynum is a massive step down from howard, but he's also a really good young center who, while not being anywhere near the best center in the league, is also easily good enough to be a foundational piece in a championship run.


still though, i think the magic would have to want more than just bynum, and i'm not sure there's anything more for the lakers to give in this scenario.
   661. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: December 10, 2011 at 02:53 AM (#4012109)
Forget what I said earlier about the job being DWTDD's to lose. Apparently the Knicks are trying to sign Mike Bibby. I think the plan is to make Tyson Chandler really earn his money so they want to go with 4 defensive sieves in the startling lineup.
   662. Squash Posted: December 10, 2011 at 03:09 AM (#4012118)
I'm a big fan of Mark Cuban's, but the quote that's going around today from him is really stupid:

"We just had a lockout, and one of the goals of the lockout was to say that small-market teams now have a chance to keep their players, and the rules were designed to give them that opportunity," Cuban told ESPN 103.3 in Dallas. "So to all of a sudden have a league-owned team trade their best player, particularly after having gone out and sold a ton of tickets in that market, that's not the kind of signal you want to send."

Perhaps this point was made a ways back, but if the owners actually want the system they set up to work for them, then they have to be willing to call their players' bluff, not trade them, and hope all the extra money they can offer draws them back. That's how the rules work. The flip side is that if a player really values playing for another team more than an extra $30 million or whatever, then there's nothing you can do about that. If you don't have the balls to stomach that potential outcome, then what can be done for you? This is trying to have your cake and eat it too - you don't have to make the decision because the guy can't be moved, and then you're ensured you're the only team that can offer big money for him. In the end all it does is either have the guy stay with the team and be miserable, or move to another team and hate the league.

What this is really going to do is incentivize even more corporations like Nike and so on to sweeten deals for guys to play in bigger markets to make up for lost salary. The NBA only loses more power over where guys go.
   663. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 03:09 AM (#4012120)
Bibby is not a starting PG anymore.
   664. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 10, 2011 at 03:30 AM (#4012138)
Did no one at MSG watch the playoffs? Bibby is burnt toast.
   665. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 03:34 AM (#4012141)
OTOH, Bibby has a few skills left:

* He can occupy a roster spot
* He can make salary amounts work in a trade
* He can help you meet the salary floor
   666. steagles Posted: December 10, 2011 at 03:35 AM (#4012143)
When I first heard about this Chris Paul thing, my first thought was "oh please, this is a freaking speed bump compared to canceling almost a quarter of the season, which he just did. Or the Donaghy thing. Or so much more. This is nothing to David Stern."
What we have here is a situation where lots of people can imagine he did something creepy, for reasons I still don't understand. (I've seen accusations that he did this both to help and to hurt the Lakers. I'm confused.) The idea, though, is that he was not acting strictly as the owner of the Hornets when he vetoed that trade. He was acting, say his accusers, with some other goals.

Maybe David Stern is a more corrupt version of Darth Vader.

What's troublesome is the gaping chasm where there should be evidence. I believe you have to do your homework before you make accusations. If you're going to call somebody a fraud, you owe them the hard work of first ruling out the possibility they might be genuine.
I don't know what happened here. But I do know that if David Stern did something sinister, nobody has presented any evidence of such. I'm not even sure anyone is looking.



hey abbott
   667. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 10, 2011 at 03:39 AM (#4012145)
* He can occupy a roster spot
* He can make salary amounts work in a trade
* He can help you meet the salary floor
Best term I've heard for these players: Cap crap.
   668. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 03:41 AM (#4012148)
The funny part is, "cap crap" is true. You can't just pull a guy out of the D-League and pay him enough to meet the salary floor.
   669. Into the Void Posted: December 10, 2011 at 03:55 AM (#4012160)
At this point I think Baron Davis is a better option than Bibby.
   670. andrewberg Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:07 AM (#4012175)
When stern says, "I vetoed the trade and I won't say why," it Is not incumbent on his critics to find more evidence that he vetoed the trade. that's what's wrong, Hank. Now present a plausible explanation for why this unprecedented act was, in fact, reasonable cuz stern isn't doing it for you.
   671. rr Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:12 AM (#4012181)
Stein says that Vince Carter is about to sign in Dallas.
   672. Maxwn Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:18 AM (#4012189)
The idea, though, is that he was not acting strictly as the owner of the Hornets when he vetoed that trade. He was acting, say his accusers, with some other goals.

Lol.
   673. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:19 AM (#4012190)
Vince Carter does not seem like a Dallas kind of guy.
   674. Bill McNeal Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:20 AM (#4012191)
If the owners were looking for a CBA where small market teams would be able to keep their players, why wasn't raising the age (or years of experience) requirement for free agency something they were more interested in?

I'm sure the players wouldn't have been big fans of that, but it's all a part of negotiation - if the rule were free agency at 30 or 10 years experience, whichever comes first, wouldn't that be something the union might consider depending the trade-off in other areas? Or was it just a total non-starter for the union?
   675. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:26 AM (#4012195)
More rumored movements...
Von Wafer is part of the Davis/Bass deal - will sign a three year deal w/ ORL
Boston gets F/C Chris Wilcox, a stathead fave for those who ignore defense.
Rhino waived by the Clips.
Turiaf will go to DC (to facilitate the Chandler deal).
   676. Maxwn Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:26 AM (#4012196)
I'm sure the players wouldn't have been big fans of that, but it's all a part of negotiation - if the rule were free agency at 30 or 10 years experience, whichever comes first, wouldn't that be something the union might consider depending the trade-off in other areas? Or was it just a total non-starter for the union?

There is no way in hell the union would go for that.

Edit: For one thing, a 10 year career is probably in like the 80th percentile of NBA careers. No way are the rank and file players who make up the majority of the NBAPA's membership gonna go for a rule that would keep them from ever having a chance at free agency.
   677. rr Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:27 AM (#4012197)
As far as Abbott, either it is just the contrarian move, or he really has serious cognitive dissonance about this.

However one sees the deal in terms of its basketball reasons, it's really not that hard to say, "I hate the f'ing Lakers, but Stern f'd up here." Many guys on this thread have been able to do that. Simmons did it. But that would be hard for Abbott, since he has never been able to/never chosen to admit that he doesn't like the Lakers and has a weird thing about Kobe. Abbott, recall, referred to stat guys once as the "high priests of objectivity."

Whether that is just a move to get attention or a real issue with him or both...no way to know.

As a media figure/sort-of analyst, if perhaps not as a Portland fan and LakerHater, Abbott should be rooting hard for this deal to go through: Paul and Bryant on the same team in crunch time--sort of like a lab experiment.
   678. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:29 AM (#4012201)
The Dooling deal wasn't Dooling = 2nd, it was Dooling + a protected 2nd for Miralles (i.e. nothing).
Bledsoe out 6-8 weeks.
Oden signs for less than his QO, due to bad medicals.
   679. rr Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:29 AM (#4012203)
Rhino waived by the Clips.


He can help whoever gets him. Lakers should be looking at it, if the Paul deal goes through.

Still don't like any Clippers moves. In the ideal robinredworld, Howard would to the Lakers and Paul would go to the Clippers. But failing that, I would like to see the Clippers become a playoff-level team.
   680. Maxwn Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:37 AM (#4012209)
Larry Coon on Dan Gilbert's Letter

Larry Coon is not impressed.
   681. rr Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:40 AM (#4012212)
Based on that photo that goes with the link in 680, maybe Gilbert would feel better if he had lips.
   682. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:41 AM (#4012213)
If the owners were looking for a CBA where small market teams would be able to keep their players


No, they were just looking for more money, and had that point to use as leverage with the fans.
   683. rr Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:44 AM (#4012214)
Coon:

Gilbert also said that by not trading draft picks and by gaining a trade exception, the Lakers were improving their chances "to eventually trade for [Dwight] Howard." Let's skip the fact that trade exception likely will be useless in a trade for Howard -- it wouldn't be big enough to fit Hedo Turkoglu's salary, and let's also ignore whether a pick or two at the end of the first round would sway the Magic's decision in a Howard trade. Instead, let's focus on Gilbert's premise -- the Lakers shouldn't be allowed to make the trade for Paul because of something they might do in the future.

Let that one roll around in your head for a while. It's like being arrested for buying a plane ticket to Las Vegas, because the police think you might commit a crime while you're there. It's a stunning abuse of power. Trades need to be evaluated on their own merits, and not because of what a team may or may not do in the future.
   684. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:46 AM (#4012215)
I agree on Smith, robinred. Also like Diogu, who was also waived by LAC.

Speaking of undersized PFs... rumor is Boston will land David West. Not sure how that would work, money-wise.
   685. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:50 AM (#4012218)
I guess West spaces the floor and lets you rest KG more, so you have 3 or 3.5 knees between the two of them. I like West, and dont like Boston. Conflicted now!
   686. rr Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:50 AM (#4012219)
rumor is Boston will land David West


Ainge is doing a nice job filling out the Boston roster.

Don't get the Clippers. Maybe they're still just, well, the Clippers, even with Blake Griffin on the team.
   687. steagles Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:52 AM (#4012220)
Von Wafer is part of the Davis/Bass deal - will sign a three year deal w/ ORL
i like wafer (assuming the wafer you get is the one from 3(!?) years ago, but that's still a #### deal.

Boston gets F/C Chris Wilcox, a stathead fave for those who ignore defense.
he crashes the boards and stays out of the way on offense, and since i hate the idea of spending any resources on a PF, he's basically the platonic ideal of what i'd look for.

Rhino waived by the Clips.
i guess what i wrote about wilcox applies equally here.

Turiaf will go to DC (to facilitate the Chandler deal).
same as above, but i'll add that WAS's frontline has some beef now. mcgee, blatche, turiaf, seraphin and booker can all do some damage.


what are the odds that blatche gets moved now?


rumor is Boston will land David West.

eh. he can hit an 18 footer, but he was made by chris paul. i wouldn't sweat that move at all.
   688. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:54 AM (#4012222)
Where's the money to sign West? Is the Jeff Green deal going to be a sign and trade? (so, west = green + stuff)
Also, that'd be at least three PFs added by Boston today.

Years 2 and 3 for Wafer are supposedly non-guaranteed.

ATL adds VladRad.

I like West less than a lot of other people do, but he has averaged 20 a game on 50% shooting over the last four years. But I guess Boston doesn't have a good distributor... oh wait.
   689. Bill McNeal Posted: December 10, 2011 at 04:59 AM (#4012225)
There is no way in hell the union would go for that.

Edit: For one thing, a 10 year career is probably in like the 80th percentile of NBA careers. No way are the rank and file players who make up the majority of the NBAPA's membership gonna go for a rule that would keep them from ever having a chance at free agency.


You could always massage the rules so as to only really affect the top players. For example, it could be negotiatied such that a player with 6 years experience would require a minimum salary of 14 mil for the team to retain his rights. In that case, teams will only choose to retain the better players, and the rank and file guys will hit free agency after 6 years.
   690. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:03 AM (#4012229)
Woj says West deal is a s-n-t for 3/$27-29M.
Would be hilarious if Rondo were involved (Rondo won't be involved).
   691. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:03 AM (#4012230)
Well, if you're going to have anyone shooting 17' jumpers, better David West than Glen Davis.
   692. rr Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:04 AM (#4012231)
I like West less than a lot of other people do, but he has averaged 20 a game on 50% shooting over the last four years. But I guess Boston doesn't have a good distributor... oh wait.


I think West fits in very well, assuming of course they can arrange the money.

West is like Davis, except better, as smileyy suggests.
   693. rr Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:10 AM (#4012235)
Given West and Paul's relationship, and the fact that Odom and/or Scola were coming to NO, West to BOS might indicate that Demps thinks the deal is back on.
   694. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:11 AM (#4012236)
1. There've been suggestions that Jermaine O'Neal would be part of the deal (he'd later be shipped elsewhere) - but that makes no sense ... O'Neal has negative trade value.
2. If JO is in the deal, this club is using the Minnesota strategy of all pf / no centers.
   695. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:11 AM (#4012237)
Given West and Paul's relationship, and the fact that Odom and/or Scola were coming to NO, West to BOS might indicate that Demps thinks the deal is back on.

Counterpoint:
RT @johnhollinger I'm baffled. David West deal would appear to kill the 3-way CP3 trade. Hornets can't take on any $ in West deal and still do CP trade.
   696. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:14 AM (#4012240)
West was headed out of NO anyway, when it was clear CP3 wasn't staying. I wouldn't want to be tied to that franchise either.
   697. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:17 AM (#4012243)
Stern should have told NO to make the West trade before the CP3 trade happens. Handcuff them with "incompetence in handling the cap" to keep everyone in line.
   698. The District Attorney Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:17 AM (#4012244)
Hollinger continues:
How can David Stern NOT kill a David West-for-garbage trade?
   699. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:18 AM (#4012246)
Well, West is a FA. Paul is signed with the franchise - that's pretty different.
Anyway, let's see what the garbage is first.
   700. rr Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:20 AM (#4012249)
@ 695

Fair point, but Hollinger often looks at things in a very linear way. Maybe the deal has been adjusted in some ways--that is, after all, what Demps/BussChak/Morey are supposedly doing as we speak: adjusting the deal.

Remember Gilbert's big problem with the deal was the Lakers allocating money/resources to set up for a Howard run; as Coon pointed out, Gilbert never really mentioned the Hornets at all in his letter.
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