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Friday, December 02, 2011

NBA THREAD DECEMBER: POST-LOCKOUT

With the lockout over, I estimate that there may be more than 10-12 Primates who want to talk about the NBA, and with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: fractional reserve banking, and Tim Tebow.

robinred Posted: December 02, 2011 at 12:26 AM | 3254 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: general

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   701. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:21 AM (#4012252)
RT @johnhollinger I'm baffled. David West deal would appear to kill the 3-way CP3 trade. Hornets can't take on any $ in West deal and still do CP trade.
paul makes 16 million. the new rules would say NOH can trade for 150% of his salary (24 million) plus 100K

if they're trading for odom (~9), scola (8.5), and martin (11.5), they'd need to add on ~3.3 million, or basically, marco belinelli.


i think it still works for them.
   702. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:23 AM (#4012253)
How can David Stern NOT kill a David West-for-garbage trade?


In addition to West's being a FA, West is West and Paul is Paul, and it doesn't set up Boston for a run at Dwight Howard.
   703. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:24 AM (#4012254)
[702] I think that was facetious.
   704. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:26 AM (#4012255)
[702] I think that was facetious.


I hope so. Hollinger should know that.
   705. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:34 AM (#4012261)
Adrian Wojnarowski
The agent for Dwight Howard, Dan Fegan, tells Y! Sports that Orlando has given Howard permission to talk to three teams.


Ummmm...

EDIT:
Adrian Wojnarowski
The Nets are one of three teams that Howard has permission to speak, but Fegan says Howard did not attend a meeting with Nets officials.
   706. Der-K, the bloodied charmer Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:34 AM (#4012263)
Chris Mannix says one is NJ.
   707. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:38 AM (#4012266)
The past 36 hours have been insane.
   708. The District Attorney Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:43 AM (#4012269)
I think that was facetious.
Speaking of which, I can't tell if Simmons' current woofing about acquiring West is facetious.
   709. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:45 AM (#4012271)
The past 36 hours have been insane.


Like Maxwn said, we all follow the NBA for the same reason: to watch David Stern and the owners do their thing. I am really excited about picking my "Front Office Pass" teams this year.
   710. Der-K, the bloodied charmer Posted: December 10, 2011 at 06:04 AM (#4012281)
Sam Amick tweets:
Story to come on SI.com, but Orlando CEO Alex Martins disputes the claim of Dwight Howard's agent that permission was given to talk to teams
   711. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 06:15 AM (#4012287)
   712. Howie Menckel Posted: December 10, 2011 at 06:17 AM (#4012288)
fyi, Woj is the main guy for all this madness on Twitter/blog.

if he gets beat on anything, it's because he's so dominating that someone annoyed at him hands someone else a cookie (which does happen, but he can quickly confirm or deny what the claim is).
   713. J. Sosa Posted: December 10, 2011 at 06:18 AM (#4012289)
re: 653

I was referencing the reaction from Laker media and Laker fans to the trade not going through. It was not relief that the trade was vetoed. Gasol is 31 and owed around 19 million the next three seasons. Odom is 32 and is signed to a bargain contract. Chris Paul is 26 and is one of the very best point guards who have ever lived. The Lakers have made three quarters for a dollar trades throughout team history (to their credit), and this was an example. The fan base is well aware of that, that's all I'm getting at from the Laker end. It was a good deal for the Lakers, assuming Paul's knee stays sound.

As you say, the New Orleans end of it is debatable. Just to get it out there though I will elaborate on why I think it is not a good deal for New Orleans. I understand in the abstract that Scola is a good player, as is Odom and Martin. Dragic is 25 and an ok player. But Simmons seems to have forgotten his own criteria for evaluating a trade. Did the Hornets get the best player in the trade? No. Did they get the second best player in the trade? No. Odom is 32 and on short money with a team option next year. That's ok if I'm the Hornets, he's good, and I can cut bait if I have to. Martin is 28 and makes 12 million and 13 million. That's ok, again, decent money and a short contract. Dragic might be something, is young, in the last year of a cheap contract, and can be gotten rid of if he doesn't pan out. But Scola? Really? He's 31 and makes roughly 8.5, 9.4, 10.2, and 11 million the next four seasons. Taking on salary in that fashion is terrible for a team in the Hornets' position. On top of that they didn't dump Okafor and didn't get any draft picks of note. For a team like New Orleans going nowhere fast, that is a terrible trade from my point of view. Others disagree.

To be clear, I don't think the deal should have been vetoed for "basketball reasons". I think its a terrible trade for New Orleans, but terrible trades get made all the time. I just think that coming out of a lockout having a league owned team trade Chris Paul to the LA Lakers does not do a whole lot for a league that inspires a substantial tin foil hat population. I've truly been surprised at the reaction to the veto. Some writers have said its worse than Donaghy. Really? I was told for years by Abbott and others that people who had sincere doubts about the integrity of refs were nuts. It turned out it was not so nuts, but that was only ONE ref. Rogue ref, isolated incident, that was the chorus from the NBA and NBA writers. This is a league that reinstated tax frauds to ref games. This is a league that had a brawl between fans and players. The veto damages the NBA more? The VETO? Having a league owned team trade an elite player to the Lakers is a bigger problem in my opinion. Despite loving soccer I don't follow the MLS for that very reason, having two teams that share an owner in a final is a joke.

I get that people say the veto damages competitive integrity even more, I do, I just disagree. I get that the owners chose to slaughter the players on BRI rather than focus on parity. I get that the NBA has never had parity and likely never will. I get that Gilbert is a titanic jerk. I get all that. I'm just saying as a sporting enterprise, I place the NBA somewhere above Serie A when it comes to legitimacy. But not by much, and that's sad. The league deserves better and the fans deserve better. The NBA ran out of black eyes awhile ago, I would not put the veto anywhere near the top of the list of things that have made the NBA look bad. I realize that viewpoint puts me in the minority.
   714. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: December 10, 2011 at 06:28 AM (#4012296)
The NBA ran out of black eyes awhile ago

Racist!
   715. Howie Menckel Posted: December 10, 2011 at 06:29 AM (#4012298)
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7337505/orlando-magic-otis-smith-gave-permission-dwight-howard-agent-speak-nets

this is a decades-long bigtime agent

"Fegan read the following prepared statement over the phone to The Magazine: "I read reports today of a meeting between Dwight Howard, his representatives and the New Jersey Nets which claimed, according to the story's anonymous sources, that such a meeting violated the NBA's tampering policies. This story is clearly inaccurate with respect to tampering claims and other facts. Tampering doesn't apply once a team grants permission for a player and/or his representatives to make contact with another team. The Magic have given us permission to have contact with several teams in order for Dwight to explore his options. I most definitely had contact with the teams I was granted permission to speak with. Since we had permission to have contact with several teams the report of possible tampering is undeniably false.

"In addition, the report that Dwight was supposed to be traded today is also inaccurate. In fact, so many of the facts reported in today's story are inaccurate, it is difficult to separate the facts from fiction, so I'm not even going to bother to address the other inaccuracies.""
   716. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 10, 2011 at 06:38 AM (#4012301)
I don't follow the MLS for that very reason, having two teams that share an owner in a final is a joke.
in fairness, aren't all MLS teams owned by the league itself? i'm not a soccer fan, so i could be wrong, but it's in my head that this is the case.


Having a league owned team trade an elite player to the Lakers is a bigger problem in my opinion.
what's the alternative, though? LAC refused to offer gordon. GSW refused to offer curry. BOS is offering rondo, but that's nowhere near as good a deal as the lakers one.


i think what moved this so quickly was NOH's desire to not have this hang over the team's head going into the season. they wanted this resolved immediately, and since the clippers didn't step up, and since the warriors didn't step up, the lakers were the last, best option.



i think mark cuban has a point, though. the league did change the CBA to incentivize players to stay with their current team, and since NOH is a league owned team, it would make a little sense for the team to take the hardline stance and tell paul 'there is no trade coming, if you want to leave, you're gonna have to leave money on the table to do so.'



that option went out the window once this trade was agreed to, but i think if it had been the play from the start, it would probably have been the right one (at least as far as anyone other than chris paul is concerned).
   717. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 10, 2011 at 06:41 AM (#4012302)
715: i could be wrong, but could this have been the reason that the team's president stepped down the other day? could he have given the agent permission to talk to the other teams regarding howard, and then have been pushed out by the owner for having done so?
   718. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 10, 2011 at 06:44 AM (#4012304)
Having a league owned team trade an elite player to the Lakers is a bigger problem in my opinion.

what's the alternative, though? LAC refused to offer gordon. GSW refused to offer curry. BOS is offering rondo, but that's nowhere near as good a deal as the lakers one.
Moreover, the LAL offer was clearly the best on the table. Second-best was the Clips, if they indeed offered their unprotected, but Paul had voiced concerns about signing a long-term with a team owned by Donald Sterling.

If a league-owned team can't trade an elite player to the Lakers, who would they be allowed to deal with? Boston? New York? Or only the mid-majors? If the problem is that it's the Lakers, then that's a horrible reason to void the deal.
   719. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: December 10, 2011 at 06:56 AM (#4012307)
Maybe the deal has been adjusted in some ways--that is, after all, what Demps/BussChak/Morey are supposedly doing as we speak: adjusting the deal.

Wouldn't it make some sense to replace Odom with a Bynum/Okafor swap? I'm aware that the Lakers and specifically Jim Buss love Bynum, but I'd think that a frontcourt of Okafor and Odom would be better and more durable than one of Bynum and whoever they could quickly acquire at PF. That adjustment should diminish the possibility of Howard to the Lakers, which seems unlikely anyway but is the driving force behind the league blocking the deal. To make up for the loss of long-term potential for the Lakers, Luis Scola could go to LA rather than NO. That way the Lakers would be the team taking on money though in doing so they would retain a strong and deep frontcourt even with the loss of Bynum and Gasol. Would a trade that makes the Lakers even better right now but increases their payroll and roughly eliminates the Howard option be more palatable to Stern and the angry owners?
   720. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:02 AM (#4012309)
@ J Sosa-

I would suggest clicking on the Lowe piece and reading it. He is a Celtics fan; it's pretty clear that the Laker stuff is a key issue for you here. And he brings something to this that such discussions generally lack: historical perspective.

As far the "NBA Sucks" stuff, that's fine, but I would make one point: when the James thing went down last summer, this thread exploded for about 36 hours, as one would expect, and the people going off on James and the league the loudest, were, without exception, not the hardcore thread regulars, but more casual fans and even a few non-fans, drawn in by the furor.

That is a reality that has two implications. First, you can argue that it shows the NBA has an optics problem, which it in many ways it does. But it also shows that people who go off on the league do so in part because they don't really get the nature and history of the sport. That doesn't mean they're not smart enough to get it; it just means that they don't have the knowledge base to contextualize the issues and, on a certain level, being casual fans simply means that they don't like the sport itself that much. Lowe, a guy who loves the sport, does a good job of contextualizing the issues and getting past the optics.

As far as this situation, earlier you said that the league needed to veto the deal. You seem to be backtracking that now, which is fine. But in breaking it down, you are presenting only one side:

Yes, Pau Gasol is 31 and is owed 60M. He is also one of the game's most skilled big men, one of the top 15-20 players in the league, and stathead hero Daryl Morey thinks enough of his future that he was ready to give up three pretty good players for him and take a run at contention by pairing him with Nene. Players with Gasol's skillset--length, height, finesse, not overly reliant on quickness and hops--tend to age well. Gasol actually mostly played very well last year during the season, and says that the personal issues that dragged him down in post-season are behind him.

Yes, Chris Paul is 26 and a great player. But if you look at his BaskRef page, his numbers the last two years have dropped off quite a bit from his earlier peak. While Nash and Stockton defied the pattern, short PGs tend to age quickly and lose a great deal of value as they hit 30. If you add this to Paul's knee problems, he has a real downside. Combining this with Andrew Bynum's health and personality issues, and Kobe Bryant's age, health, and mileage, there is real downside here for the Lakers, who gave up two of the four best players on a team that has won three conference titles and two titles and also gave up big guys to boot.

As to Odom, yes, he is 32, but also has a skillset that would seem likely to age well and played very well last year himself. He also has a very team-friendly deal. The main issue with Odom, on any new team, will be his head. He is, by all accounts, deeply upset by this deal, and given his age and life history, that might be a problem.

One can argue that Demps should have simply kept Gasol, rather than flipping him for Scola, Martin and Dragic. NO would then have re-created the Lakers' extremely successful frontline, more or less, by rotating Okafor/Odom/Gasol. But that is a separate issue; Stern didn't veto that deal--he vetoed the whole thing. Demps apparently decided that triggering on this was better than waiting to see about getting young guys who may never be as good as Scola, Martin, Dragic, and Odom, and picks, and decided it was better than trading Paul for Rajon Rondo. Maybe he was wrong; maybe he wasn't.

But again, I think Paul would be a Clipper or a Warrior today if those teams had been willing to part with Gordon and Curry. I can see why they didn't, but, presumably, one reason that Paul would rather be a Laker is the belief, based on the Lakers' historical record, that they will find a way to win--whereas those other teams won't.

In any case, I stand by the position that the deal is not nearly "bad" enough for New Orleans that the league should have shut it down, and I think Gilbert's, and, frankly, Cuban's--quotes and the accompanying context thereof speak for themselves.
   721. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:04 AM (#4012310)
in fairness, aren't all MLS teams owned by the league itself?


That's my understanding. There's a different sort of weirdness with that. But in all things, there's a tension between optimizing for the league as a whole and optimizing for every city in the league. But I don't see what's untenable about that arrangement, except for the desire for individual owners to profit off the league.
   722. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:12 AM (#4012315)
Would a trade that makes the Lakers even better right now but increases their payroll and roughly eliminates the Howard option be more palatable to Stern and the angry owners?


Maybe.

1 Paul
2 Bryant
3 MWP/Barnes
4 Odom
5 Okafor

Okafor is actually a pretty good player, and he would fit very well with that group. That would be a very good team, with a hellacious luxury tax to pay and a huge issue in 2013-14, since Okafor's and Bryant's deals run past when the new tax kicks in (as Paul's would too of course).

Whether the owners/Stern would prefer that to the possibility of Howard landing here with Paul is an open question.
   723. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:16 AM (#4012317)
You think they can get CP3 without giving up Odom? Gasol+Bynum?
   724. Der-K, the bloodied charmer Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:18 AM (#4012318)
the three teams for howard to talk to are NJ, LAL, and DAL.
   725. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:24 AM (#4012322)
You think they can get CP3 without giving up Odom? Gasol+Bynum?


Well, supposedly one big issue people have with this is that by getting Paul while keeping Bynum, that sets up the Lakers to get Howard and Paul. Hollinger, Simmons and others have been saying for months that that getting both of them is nothing but the deluded menanderings of Laker fanboys--except now we have an NBA owner writing an email to the Commissioner about it.

Put Gasol in Houston, Bynum in New Orleans, keep Odom in LA, and send Okafor and his contract to LA, get NO a young guy and another pick, and as DLG says, Okafor takes Howard off the table for the Lakers, and probably puts him in Brooklyn or Chicago and maybe Stern says it's OK.

And if the Lakers traded BOTH Gasol AND Bynum for a PG, even if the PG is Chris Paul, they would need a 5 back.

Also, Bynum has a team option for 12-13--he is someone Demps could flip if he wanted to.
   726. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:25 AM (#4012323)
DAL.


Heh.(Not taunting you DK--if that is true, though, I am snickering at Cuban. Thought the new CBA was supposed to keep them stars at home).
   727. Der-K, the bloodied charmer Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:27 AM (#4012327)
julyan stone, an undrafted pg out of utep, signed a two year deal with denver.
he's interesting. 6-7, 8.5/7.5/5.3 in 36.5 min, 1.5stl, 2.4 to, 0.6, 51% fg (5.8 att), 26% 3pt (1.5 att), 56% ft (4.0 att), plus d, thought to have a shot at getting picked in round 2 of the last draft.
go on - guess his weakness! (his shooting was atrocious in limited attempts prior to his sr year).

ryan blake compared him to royal ivey. on paper, this guy is more of a playmaker and rebounder and is quite a bit taller, but far less of a scorer. than royal ivey.

***

yeah, i thought about bolding that for you robinred... but figured you'd see it without that help. :)
EDIT: didn't feel taunted. and if you had, that'd be okay.

dallas should get a big TPE w/ the chandler deal, right?
   728. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:44 AM (#4012335)
julyan stone, an undrafted pg out of utep, signed a two year deal with denver.
he's interesting. 6-7, 8.5/7.5/5.3 in 36.5 min, 1.5stl, 2.4 to, 0.6, 51% fg (5.8 att), 26% 3pt (1.5 att), 56% ft (4.0 att), plus d, thought to have a shot at getting picked in round 2 of the last draft.
that is an interesting profile, but that shooting has gotta be a dealbreaker.

assuming the guys in china come back, and assuming the guy's a player, it would be really interesting to see denver with a lineup of stone at PG, chandler at SG, gallinari at SF, faried at PF, and harrington at C. 6'7, 6'8 6'10, 6'8, 6'9. i mean, how would an opponent defend that?
   729. puck Posted: December 10, 2011 at 08:04 AM (#4012343)
in fairness, aren't all MLS teams owned by the league itself?


Yes, but it's not the same. I don't know how it works legally but the teams are all technically owned by the league and operated by individual companies (with some exceptions of course). The players all sign contracts with the league rather than an individual team. The league as a whole takes care of some expenses (I think they pay salaries up to the salary cap) and the "owner/operator" takes care of other expenses, and certain percentages of ticket sales, sponsorships, etc. go back to the league.

However, owners don't have veto power over teams' personnel moves, as long as the moves follow the rules (there's a salary cap and other rules).

I think this sort of structure makes sense for a nascent league like MLS, or like the re-formed Arena football league (which is also single-entity) where multiple teams would be in danger of folding without the security afforded by the structure, and taking the league with them. It would also make sense for WPS (women's pro soccer), but for some reason they decided not to do their league that way. It's like super-duper revenue sharing.

AEG being the "owner/operator" of both the Houston and LA teams is closer...but at one point 3 organizations (I think it was 3) owned all the teams out of necessity, so the current situation is a vast improvement. I don't know how the league deals with the possibility of one team trading assets to the other to make a superclub.
   730. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 09:16 AM (#4012360)
dallas should get a big TPE w/ the chandler deal, right?


Yeah, but Cuban wouldn't think of using it to land an elite player. Might compromise the CBA. ;-

One add: while Dandy's idea was not unreasonable, I kind of doubt that Buss Jr will trigger on a deal with Bynum that does not get Howard. Buss, like his old man, isn't much of a talker, but it is pretty well-known that he loves Bynum.
   731. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 09:22 AM (#4012362)
ESPNChrisPalmer chris palmer
Team source just confirmed to me Howard's agent was given permission to talk to Lakers, Mavs, Nets. Permission was given earlier tonight.
about an hour ago
   732. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 09:59 AM (#4012370)
I hope Cuban makes a really lopsided deal for Howard.
   733. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:42 AM (#4012373)
I hope Cuban makes a really lopsided deal for Howard.


Sure. Then Jerry and Jim Buss can go on ESPNLA and talk about the message of the CBA, and Michael Jordan can text Stern explaining why he needs to step in.
   734. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: December 10, 2011 at 05:51 PM (#4012499)
Well, it's official (I jest) incarcerated bob is reporting Crawford to Bulls should be done within 24 hours. The guy is in the rumor business and has admitted as such. There is a lot of smoke about JCraw to Chicago right now, so while it seems nothing is a done deal, there are certainly talks in that direction ongoing.

Bulls fans online are such a spoiled / whiny bunch. I've already seen a couple, "we can't give up Ronnie Brewer for JCraw" type posts. Are you kidding me? Ronnie Brewer is an 8th man at best that has had problems staying healthy. Oh, also, he can't shoot and lets teams pack the lane against Rose. JCraw is a legit 2 starting 2 guard, you give up an 8th man every day of the week for that.


No one in the MSM is picking up the Jamal story, so I wonder what that's about. Everyone's focusing on Rip.

From KC:

a league source said the Bulls likely will offer a two-year deal in the neighborhood of $10 million to recoup most of what Hamilton gives back.

Sources said the Bulls never offered the full, four-year midlevel exception of roughly $20.5 million to Richardson, citing luxury-tax concerns.


I don't see the Bulls adding Rip and Jamal, although I'd be in favor of it. It'd obviously have to be a S&T to get Jamal. Either Korver or Brewer is redundant on a team with Rip/Jamal, Watson isn't a necessity, and Bogans is perfect cap filler for a trade since his team option is non-guaranteed. But if the luxury tax is a concern and the Bulls are using the MLE on Rip, I don't see Jamal too. If he really does want more than the MLE - like KC keeps saying - say $7mil or so, Korver is $5mil, Watson $3.4mil, Bogans $1.7 mil, they could probably squeeze it all in under the luxury tax (say Jamal gets 3rs/$21mil, with a salary that goes up each season but keeps them out of the tax this year). Bulls have a low round pick or 2nd rounder or 2 they could throw in if they want. From ATL's perspective, Korver would help and none of those guys are signed past this season.

BTW, allow me to say a pre-emptive #### you to Reinsdorf for really ####### cheaping out here. Rose's extension kicks in next year, but they have a real shot here and if he's going to count his change and that's going to stop the Bulls from getting as good as they can be, I'm going to be really pissed.
   735. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 06:42 PM (#4012526)
If I were a Bulls' fan, I think I would prefer Hamilton to Crawford.

Couple of Stein Tweets:

Dallas is trying to get Dalembert to sign a one-year using TPE. Cuban very focused on having massive cap space to make a run at big dogs in 2012 FA (one of the many reasons for my cynicism about Cuban's being so vocally opposed to the Lakers' getting Paul).

The Kings, apparently needing more guards, "covet" Barea.
   736. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 06:57 PM (#4012541)
ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
Just filed to ESPN w/@Chris_Broussard: New trade framework of original three-team CP3 deal has been submitted to league office for approval
4 minutes ago
   737. Spivey Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:01 PM (#4012543)
You add J-Rich to the Bulls and they're probably the best team in basketball. It's not like you're giving him a max deal. You're giving him a MLE, #### the luxury tax. You're the f'n Bulls.
   738. Spivey Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:02 PM (#4012545)
If I were a Bulls' fan, I think I would prefer Hamilton to Crawford.


I'd prefer Crawford. He's better at stretching a defense, something they need, and though he can get shoot happy it's not like there aren't shots available on that team. I'd also imagine he's a little better defensively than Hamilton.
   739. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:12 PM (#4012549)
Richardson should be their first priority. That's obvious.

I would take Hamilton because he plays better off the ball. Crawford would help the Bulls a lot when Rose is off the floor.
   740. puck Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:14 PM (#4012552)
When players are waived via the amnesty rule, what's the situation for teams who want to sign these players? Is there a claiming period? And after that are they just straight free agents?

I wonder if Denver would have interest in bringing Billups back.
   741. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:27 PM (#4012559)
I think JRich is the perfect fit, or I should say, the best fit of the available and attainable options (Afflalo is the best option, but not really attainable for the Bulls right now). He didn't look so great in Orlando last year, so there is some concern about what he has left. If he wants a 4 year deal, that's also a little scary because of his age. I've been down on Rip a long time, so I'm not crazy about that but he obviously helps (and I don't think Crawford is better defensively, he's more athletic though). And I as was talking about before, there's no reason the Bulls shouldn't get 2 of these 3. Crawford is used to be a 6th man now, so he's the obvious one to come off the bench. A S&T built around Korver should work for him, and then give the full MLE to JRich (if he'll take it, there seems to be some indications he wants more than that, but I haven't seen anything solid about that). Bogans was already worthless, so he's gone. Brewer can stick around - but if they have to deal him or a team wants him, I'm not going to miss him - as 2/3 insurance.

And you're definitely right, Spivey, they shouldn't care about the tax. But right now, they do.
   742. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:30 PM (#4012561)
When players are waived via the amnesty rule, what's the situation for teams who want to sign these players? Is there a claiming period? And after that are they just straight free agents?

Waiver wire. Teams with cap space submit bids for what they'll pay annually, high bid wins. After that, then they're FA. Not sure the waiver time period (48 hrs is normal waiver wire). And the question I keep asking - what about trading a claimed guy?
   743. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:32 PM (#4012564)
LarryCoon Larry Coon
Heard it might be Okafor. Even if not, wait for the follow-up deal. RT @JBlack25: this deal leaves LA with no PF.
   744. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:37 PM (#4012568)
Sure. Then Jerry and Jim Buss can go on ESPNLA and talk about the message of the CBA, and Michael Jordan can text Stern explaining why he needs to step in.

I missed when the league started running Orlando.

Go back into retirement, Sugar Ray.
   745. madvillain Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:45 PM (#4012571)
ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Executive from a team inquiring about Rip Hamilton has been told Rip was focused on Chicago. "It's a lock," exec says.


There we go Moses. I'm more than happy with Hamilton. Although he'll be 33 this season, he has a game that should age well, and he should feel refreshed and motivated now that's he's out of purgatory in Detroit. He's not a great 3 point shooter but he can nail the corner three and play a little defense. You have to guard him, which is more than can be said for Bogans and Brewer.

I don't think it can be under stated how much of an improvement he is from Bogans. If this holds true, the Bulls went from having the worst starting SG in the league to now having an average one. Heck yea.

[edit: scuttlebutt seems to be this is a done deal and will be announced within a day or two. They are waiting on Rip to clear waivers, which from what I've read is a formality. Thibs moved the first double practice to Tuesday, which seems to indicate he's waiting on new player(s). [/edit]
   746. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:45 PM (#4012572)
I missed when the league started running Orlando.


Go back into retirement, Sugar Ray.


It was a throwaway joke.

If you have some substance to bring about the NBA in general or the Paul situation, bring it. Always looking for new perspectives here. Insults on the internet are easy--particularly weak ones like that, picked up from a reference by someone else.
   747. puck Posted: December 10, 2011 at 07:49 PM (#4012575)
Thanks. The rule makes some sense, though it is kind of funny given the rhetoric about losing money and competitive balance.
   748. tshipman Posted: December 10, 2011 at 08:21 PM (#4012600)
Richard Hamilton is not a great 3p shooter. Not as good a fit as Richardson, imo.


Heard it might be Okafor. Even if not, wait for the follow-up deal. RT @JBlack25: this deal leaves LA with no PF.


I don't get why the league would approve one deal and not the other. That's ridiculous.
   749. andrewberg Posted: December 10, 2011 at 08:31 PM (#4012609)
Rip will help a lot, more than Crawford IMO. Jrich would be even better but I can see the age concerns on a longer deal given how he finished last year.

Approving this trade would be good if inconsistent. Better to be hypocritical if you were clearly wrong the first time.
   750. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 08:32 PM (#4012611)
Okafor's deal runs past when the new tax kicks in. Recall one of Gilbert's objections:

Over the next three seasons this deal would save the Lakers approximately $20 million in salaries and approximately $21 million in luxury taxes. That $21 million goes to non-taxpaying teams and to fund revenue sharing.


So, if we assume that:

a) The small-market owners want more money out of the Lakers
b) They want to reduce the chances of the Lakers adding Howard

The owners liking it better if the Lakers take on Okafor makes some sense, as Dandy and Dagoberto suggested.

BTW, if the regular crew thinks it is time for me to retire, I will, as long as I get to post the monthly joke on the thread lead. I did go to Germany and got some platelets injected into my brain during the off-season, though.
   751. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 08:38 PM (#4012616)
chadfordinsider Chad Ford
Lots of speculation that Emeka Okafor is in the new CP3 deal. Source says he is not part of trade.
   752. King Mekong Posted: December 10, 2011 at 08:57 PM (#4012634)
Stick around robin. You add to the thread.

So where does Turiaf end up? I like to see him on the spurs as an off the bench defensive big. How is he on pick and roll?

This has been an exciting offseason. While it has mostly been negative publicity, I think overall it's been a good thing for the league. You have to hope somebody internally is going to work on bridging these divides. The acrimony seems like it could break out and kill a season in 6 yrs.

I don't see Cuban having any luck in FA next year. It seems likely to me that Howard pairs with Williams. They would then both stick around. Then what is he going to do? No one else is available.
   753. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 09:02 PM (#4012638)
So where does Turiaf end up?


Chandler deal was completed today--he is in DC:

The Knicks sent veteran center Ronny Turiaf, cash considerations and a 2013 second-round pick to Washington. They also dealt second-year guard Andy Rautins to the Dallas Mavericks. Dallas sent a second-round 2012 draft choice to Washington and the draft rights to Ahmad Nivins and Giorgos Printezis to New York. Washington also sent a future second round draft choice to Dallas.
   754. Tripon Posted: December 10, 2011 at 09:10 PM (#4012644)

So, if we assume that:

a) The small-market owners want more money out of the Lakers
b) They want to reduce the chances of the Lakers adding Howard

The owners liking it better if the Lakers take on Okafor makes some sense, as Dandy and Dagoberto suggested.

BTW, if the regular crew thinks it is time for me to retire, I will, as long as I get to post the monthly joke on the thread lead. I did go to Germany and got some platelets injected into my brain during the off-season, though.


This is some god damn circular and contradictory thinking from the NBA owners. They have the cap to force the Lakers and others to pay a tax if they go over the cap, but they object if the Lakers find a way to get under it because they want Lakers to pay the tax.

#### the NBA owners.
   755. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 09:11 PM (#4012645)
A fierce but one-sided Xavier-Cincinnati rivalry game with a of great plays is ruined when trash talking turns into slapping, shoving and punching with 9 seconds left and a 23-point Xavier lead. The game was ended. I expect suspensions to be handed out to, at a minimum, XU's Dez Wells (a shove that escalated the melee) and UC's Yancy Gates (threw and landed punches, bloodying Kenny Frease).
   756. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 09:13 PM (#4012647)
rr - Pssh no, stick around.

I kind of want a LAL-PHI finals, just so you and STEAGLES can post 10,000 times in a day.
   757. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 09:15 PM (#4012649)
This is some god damn circular and contradictory thinking from the NBA owners.


Well, that was pretty much what Coon said WRT Gilbert's email. But maybe Gilbert et al didn't influence this that much; we don't really know.

I assume the revised deal will be approved. If it is, the terms will tell us something.
   758. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 09:20 PM (#4012651)
I kind of want a LAL-PHI finals, just so you and STEAGLES can post 10,000 times in a day.


Heh.

Have had some free time while helping the students through finals, have been a little sick, and frankly did not expect the events that have transpired. Didn't think the Lakers would be at the center of all the Paul/Howard shitt.
   759. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 09:25 PM (#4012659)
Is there any consensus, yet, on what a new deal might look like?
   760. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 09:30 PM (#4012666)
Not really--mostly all I am doing, as people can see, is looking at ESPN Tweets.

What those say is that NO really wants Lamar Odom--he is staying in the deal. Lakers may send Ebanks along.

Some people are speculating that my earlier joke about Ariza is actually true; he is coming back here.

Figure we will know in an hour or so--and then the Howard rumors will crank up.

The Knicks have a really nice (albeit pricey) starting frontline now. I like how the owners put in this amnesty thing, and the Bulls are using it to address SG and the Knicks used it to get a good center.
   761. smileyy Posted: December 10, 2011 at 09:42 PM (#4012672)
I think a periodic cap amnesty would be a great part of a new CBA. Teams need to sign those deals to try to compete, but they need to be able to get out from under them when they don't work out.
   762. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: December 10, 2011 at 09:58 PM (#4012682)
Richard Hamilton is not a great 3p shooter. Not as good a fit as Richardson, imo.

I agree. And I still say they should add Crawford, too.

I like how the owners put in this amnesty thing, and the Bulls are using it to address SG

Technically speaking, the Pistons aren't using the amnesty on Rip, this is a good old fashioned buyout. He's actually giving up almost $11mil, that's why the Bulls are paying him $10mil (over 2 years). Only official amnesties so far are Arenas and Billups, right? I'm sure there'll be more, but the deadline is Tue or Wed though.

I asked about trades before, only thing I've seen about that is that guys claimed via amnesty can't be traded for 90 days, and that wasn't confirmed (and it didn't say how much they counted for salary-wise in a deal).
   763. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:00 PM (#4012683)
Martin: "Hopefully trade goes through. I feel like I'm still locked out. ... They made it clear what they want."


Gasol: "I had a lot of fun today practicing with my guys. Hopefully I'll be able to do it tomorrow."


Scola took a very positive approach as well, but Odom has apparently taken it very hard. Showed up 90 minutes late yesterday and didn't practice. Worth remembering that these guys are all established, quality, players, whatever one thinks of the actual deal.
   764. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:00 PM (#4012684)
@paulcoro: The Suns-Raptors Pietrus trade is off. Agent said Pietrus will return to Phoenix for rehab on his knee.


The Raps did sign Aaron Gray though, so they'll be fine.

@WindhorstESPN: Eddy Curry said he's down 70 pounds from last year.


He still won't rebound.
   765. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:04 PM (#4012686)
Billups really wants to go to Miami, I reckon:

WojYahooNBA: For teams considering claim on Chauncey Billups, he tells Y!: "A leader can be as disruptive as he can be productive..This is about me now."
WojYahooNBA: Billups: "People take my kindness and professionalism for weakness. They think I’ll be OK with (getting claimed). I won’t be OK with this."
WojYahooNBA: Billups wants freedom to choose team. Warns those who'd claim him: You'll regret it. "I'm tired of being the glue guy." Story soon on Y!


More.
   766. Into the Void Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:06 PM (#4012691)
Only official amnesties so far are Arenas and Billups, right?


Vince Carter too, I think.
   767. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:07 PM (#4012695)
Vince Carter too, I think.


Carter had a 4M buyout clause IIRC, so I don't think he is an amnesty guy.
   768. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:14 PM (#4012697)
Correct on VC.
   769. andrewberg Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:20 PM (#4012703)
That's a horrible attitude by Billups. I generally default in favor of the players, but they signed off on this agreement, and those rules were put in place by mutual agreement. If the players were not ok with the amnesty clause being used, they should not have voted for the deal that included it.
   770. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:25 PM (#4012705)
From Stern's press conference, the day the NBA took over the Hornets:

Q. Can you explain when trades are made, or if a free agent wants to be signed, what is the process that Dell [Demps] has to go through, do you say yeah, we’ll do that trade or we won’t do that trade?

DAVID STERN: Actually, the league generally approves all trades, number one. And number two, as far as we’re concerned there have been while this process has been going on, there have been two significant transactions. And our response to both of them was you guys are management, you understand your budget and your instructions, just go ahead, because we’ve got Jac Sperling, Hugh Weber here, and if they recommend it, then we’re going to be approving it.

______

Came via Hornets 24/7 and The Painted Area blog.

I guess that Stern's story is that Sperling put the kibosh on it for basketball reasons. Tough sale.
   771. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:28 PM (#4012706)
WojYahooNBA: Billups wants freedom to choose team. Warns those who'd claim him: You'll regret it. "I'm tired of being the glue guy." Story soon on Y!
you know, that's a really shitty attitude to take, but he was traded from detroit to denver, against his wishes, and then he was traded from denver to new york, again, against his wishes. then he was bought out by new york, yet again, against his wishes.

i don't think what he's doing there is a good thing, but i can't blame him too much for making clear his desire to choose where he plays.
I kind of want a LAL-PHI finals, just so you and STEAGLES can post 10,000 times in a day.
*fingers crossed*


in other related sixers news, evan turner has gotten a ton of praise for the improvement to his jumpshot over the lockout. also, spencer hawes has signed his qualifying offer, and he's basically the last remaining loose end going into training camp.

and now, with both hawes and yonug in camp, the sixers are expected to find somewhere to send marreese speights. that might be tough, since the sixers are not looking to take on any long-term salary whatsoever, and since their rotation is already pretty much set, there won't really be any need for a short-term contributor, either. i'm not really seeing anything on storytellers that would be a fit in light of these two things, so i think he may be here despite the team's apparent desire for him not to be.
   772. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:30 PM (#4012707)
I generally default in favor of the players, but they signed off on this agreement, and those rules were put in place by mutual agreement


Well, Billups was traded out of his hometown to accommodate Anthony, and then amnestied to accomodate Chandler. I think it is more of a personal reaction to his own situation than it is a commentary on the amnesty clause.
   773. robinred Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:34 PM (#4012710)
Monty Williams today
:“I’d rather tongue kiss a maggot than tweet or blog.”
   774. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:39 PM (#4012712)
you know, that's a really shitty attitude to take, but he was traded from detroit to denver, against his wishes, and then he was traded from denver to new york, again, against his wishes. then he was bought out by new york, yet again, against his wishes.
I was just going to write exactly this. Billups has been a good-guy ping pong ball. He's brought good value to every one of his stops for about a decade now, and teams have traded him like the journeyman they originally thought he was. Yeah, he gets a lot of money, but Billups has always struck me as a guy who values loyalty, and he hasn't been shown any as of late.
   775. andrewberg Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:43 PM (#4012714)
I was just going to write exactly this. Billups has been a good-guy ping pong ball. He's brought good value to every one of his stops for about a decade now, and teams have traded him like the journeyman they originally thought he was. Yeah, he gets a lot of money, but Billups has always struck me as a guy who values loyalty, and he hasn't been shown any as of late.


The baseline is showing up, playing hard, and not poisoning the locker room. Nobody is asking him to be active in the community or whatever other "above and beyond" aspects there are that are associated with the concept of team loyalty (which is the other side of the "above and beyond" the language of the contract coin).

I don't hold a grudge against him at all, but he had a breakout year in MN then left for Detroit for similar money, so it's not like he puts loyalty above all else.
   776. andrewberg Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:58 PM (#4012728)
Another aspect- the players dug in (fairly) on the position that they wanted to preserve player movement. One of the keys to getting the CBA ratified was continuing some MLE to allow players to move where they want. That's fine and good, but if you want the right to choose your work assignment when your contract runs up, then you better be willing to work when the employer lawfully reassigns you to another location.
   777. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 10, 2011 at 10:59 PM (#4012729)
I don't hold a grudge against him at all, but he had a breakout year in MN then left for Detroit for similar money, so it's not like he puts loyalty above all else.
I didn't say "above all else", just that he valued it. Also Billups got a five-year offer from Detroit and a guarantee to be their starting PG. The Pistons definitely showed him the love. (I have no idea what the Wolves offered him.)
   778. andrewberg Posted: December 10, 2011 at 11:12 PM (#4012737)
I didn't say "above all else", just that he valued it. Also Billups got a five-year offer from Detroit and a guarantee to be their starting PG. The Pistons definitely showed him the love. (I have no idea what the Wolves offered him.)


Yeah, fair enough. I didn't mean to say that you mischaracterized it, just that anyone who gets defensive over "loyalty" in pro sports is either disingenuous or hopelessly naive, and I don't feel professionally sorry for him in the least. Personally, yeah, but playing hard and being decent to teammates is not a personal issue.
   779. tshipman Posted: December 10, 2011 at 11:24 PM (#4012750)
Only official amnesties so far are Arenas and Billups, right?


Over/under on date Simmons will apologize for his line about 300mm in bad player contracts?
   780. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 10, 2011 at 11:53 PM (#4012769)
this just popped up in my reader: Erick Dampier Is Literally A Textbook Example Of Irrational Behavior

Only official amnesties so far are Arenas and Billups, right?
also richard jefferson.

and i think there are various other situations where its use would make sense (i.e. the sixers using the clause to amnesty andre iguodala after next season, which, along with elton brand's expiring deal, would give the team 34 million in cap space going into free agency).
   781. The District Attorney Posted: December 11, 2011 at 12:05 AM (#4012779)
Woj getting straight to the point:
Dwight Howard has requested that the Orlando Magic trade him to the New Jersey Nets, league sources tell Y! Sports.
   782. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 12:10 AM (#4012782)
Tweets:

Jeff Green signs 1/9m deal with Boston

Jeff Foster returns to Indiana

Mike Bibby signs 1-year deal with New York
   783. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2011 at 12:13 AM (#4012783)
Good to see Indiana (IU) being competitive again. Leading Kentucky (at IU) late in the first half.
   784. The District Attorney Posted: December 11, 2011 at 12:29 AM (#4012788)
Oh, and hey... Bill James on basketball again!
If I was an NBA owner or even a fan of another team, I'd be extremely suspicious of any trade made by the league that tended to strengthen the hand of the Lakers. When the league owns a team, they have to do what is in the best interests of the league as well as the best interests of the team. If fans all around the league feel that we're being shafted to sustain the Lakers' dynasty, that could be devastating to the league. I don't think you can let that happen.
   785. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2011 at 12:31 AM (#4012789)
Huh. Bill James is wrong again. Go figure.
   786. madvillain Posted: December 11, 2011 at 12:42 AM (#4012800)
Huh. Bill James is wrong again. Go figure.


James comes off as the sorta guy that because he's an expert on one thing thinks he's an expert on everything. His quote tells me the whole fiasco went completely over his head. Nobody was concerned this trade unduly strengthened the Lakers and that's not why the NBA owners and Stern cancelled the deal.
   787. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2011 at 12:46 AM (#4012802)
If Bill James is going to drop some big wisdom, it should be that the league should never own a team, period. And on the chance it does, it owns it in something along the lines of a blind trust.

I suspect James is looking at it from the point of view of "If one is in this deeply flawed situation, here's how you optimize it." I guess that's his gig, but still, weird. It's like "What's the optimum lineup if your team has no infielders?"
   788. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 01:01 AM (#4012810)
James' two favorite NBA teams are, out of his own mouth, the Celtics and the Rockets (he is friends with Morey). Guess Bill is not into the Pau/Nene thing that Morey is trying to get out of this deal. James also (understandably) hates the Yankees, is a contrarian, and is a big college basketball fan, so his take is not surprising.

Nobody was concerned this trade unduly strengthened the Lakers and that's not why the NBA owners and Stern cancelled the deal.


I disagree to an extent. I think people/the league felt, and feel, like that if Paul is here, then Howard will want to come, too, so the league guys/Stern couldn't let Paul come here unless they did more to seal off Howard's possible path to LA.

I don't know if that was the key factor in the veto, but I do believe it was a factor.
   789. andrewberg Posted: December 11, 2011 at 01:06 AM (#4012813)
It occurred to me that Howard might actually want to avoid a Kobe/Paul team seeing as how there already seems to be some public backlash to him joining what would be a superteam. It has always seemed like he wants to be loved (the dunk contest theatrics, commercials, his twitter antics, etc) and I think it's pretty clear that public opinion would not be on his side if he went to LA, at least outside of the team's fan base. By comparison, he'd probably have a lot more national adoration in Brooklyn, especially among hipsters.
   790. Into the Void Posted: December 11, 2011 at 01:20 AM (#4012816)
By comparison, he'd probably have a lot more national adoration in Brooklyn, especially among hipsters.


Why, does Dwight Howard drink Jameson and PBR too?
   791. madvillain Posted: December 11, 2011 at 01:20 AM (#4012817)
By comparison, he'd probably have a lot more national adoration in Brooklyn, especially among hipsters.


I an genuinely interested (and more than a bit skeptical) how popular the Nets and Howard are going to be in Brooklyn and NYC. I lived in NYC for 5 years and worked for 3 of them about two blocks from where the new Arena is. The Knicks are a cultural institution in the city and the Nets simply moving into Brooklyn isn't going to change that. The arena has the benefit of being a stones throw away from the Atlantic Avenue transit center, so I don't doubt they will sell out most games, but as far as growing the fanbase -- I think they have a tough road to hoe.

The Knicks, despite ITs best efforts, are a strong brand, the Nets are not. Simply changing the name and moving corporate HQs aren't going to change that overnight. In 10 years you will have kids that have never known the Nets as anything other than "brooklyn's team". That's when the tide might start to shift.

As for the hipsters, I doubt many of them could be bothered to come down from Williamsburg, the LES and Bushwick. I suspect most of the initial new Nets fans will be middle class, non-white Brooklynites.
   792. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: December 11, 2011 at 01:21 AM (#4012818)
Did Orlando really trade a fairly good player with a good contract (Bass) to the Celtics for an inferior player at the same position with a significantly worse contract (Glen Davis), just because Howard is better friends with the latter? And did the Magic really do this in between requests from Howard to be traded? Congrats to Danny Ainge for taking advantage of another team's desperation.

Any guesses on how the CP3 trade is amended? I'll say all the original components remain, plus now the Hornets also receive Jordan Hill, Steve Blake, and a 1st rounder from the Lakers; Houston gets Darius Morris; and either Okafor or Ariza heads to LA. The Hornets would gain a young player and a pick -- supposedly what was lacking from the first deal -- and the Lakers would be somewhat worse off financially. I predict that Stern would accept such a proposal if the Magic trade Howard to the Nets this weekend and reject it otherwise.
   793. tshipman Posted: December 11, 2011 at 01:21 AM (#4012819)
Dwight Howard has requested that the Orlando Magic trade him to the New Jersey Nets, league sources tell Y! Sports.


So, assuming the deal goes through as theorized, and the Nyets are:

PG: Deron Williams
SG: ??? Morrow??? I have no clue who plays here
SF: Outlaw
PF: Humphries (???) assuming they bring him back
C: Howard

6th man: Farmar (? not sure if he's in the deal or not)


Is this a contender? I am leaning towards yes, 50 wins and a 2nd round exit.
   794. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2011 at 01:26 AM (#4012821)

Why, does Dwight Howard drink Jameson and PBR too?


His evangelical Christianity strikes a chord with them.
   795. andrewberg Posted: December 11, 2011 at 01:30 AM (#4012823)
They drafted Marshon Brooks and I suppose they intend to use him. Maybe they'll take Turk back to ease Orlando's salary and he'd probably play over Outlaw.
   796. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2011 at 01:30 AM (#4012824)
Too bad Odom didn't wend his way to Kris Humphries team.
   797. The District Attorney Posted: December 11, 2011 at 01:32 AM (#4012825)
I an genuinely interested (and more than a bit skeptical) how popular the Nets and Howard are going to be in Brooklyn and NYC. I lived in NYC for 5 years and worked for 3 of them about two blocks from where the new Arena is. The Knicks are a cultural institution in the city and the Nets simply moving into Brooklyn isn't going to change that. The arena has the benefit of being a stones throw away from the Atlantic Avenue transit center, so I don't doubt they will sell out most games, but as far as growing the fanbase -- I think they have a tough road to hoe.

The Knicks, despite ITs best efforts, are a strong brand, the Nets are not. Simply changing the name and moving corporate HQs aren't going to change that overnight.
We'll see, but I disagree. I think Thomas did do that much damage. Even a fervent fan base of a historically successful team can be brought to its knees by a decade of consistent mediocrity. Knick fans have been told many times now that the ship is about to turn around, and I think they've kind of stopped believing it. I noted that the charge brought in by Carmelo was less intense and long-lasting than the charge brought in by Stephon Marbury. I think Knick fans have high expectations and are smart enough to see that, even though the team has been run pretty well of late, there is still no foreseeable way they can get past the Heat, Thunder, etc. The Nets might or might not have any better chance to win the championship than the Knicks, but at least they don't have the expectations ;-)

Although I agree that Manhattan/Bronx will generally stick with the Knicks, I think the rest of the city (and Long Island) is going to gravitate towards the Nets. Another factor is that I believe there is a lot of pent-up demand for "Brooklyn" to have a major league sports franchise. I'm sure no one on this site needs to be reminded that you still incessantly hear about the Brooklyn Dodgers 50 years after they ceased to exist.

Anywho, Woj:
Jason Richardson has reached agreement on a four year, $25M deal with the Orlando Magic, league source tells Y! Sports.
   798. tshipman Posted: December 11, 2011 at 01:37 AM (#4012826)
They drafted Marshon Brooks and I suppose they intend to use him.


Forgot about him. Still not great to start a rookie, especially not one drafted at the very end of the round. Landry Fields aside, rarely a great move.


Maybe they'll take Turk back to ease Orlando's salary and he'd probably play over Outlaw.


Really? Outlaw's been good more recently than Tukeyglue.
   799. madvillain Posted: December 11, 2011 at 01:40 AM (#4012827)
Another factor is that I believe there is a lot of pent-up demand for "Brooklyn" to have a major league sports franchise. I'm sure no one on this site needs to be reminded that you still incessantly hear about the Brooklyn Dodgers 50 years after they ceased to exist.


This is certainly true, and it's my opinion that most Brooklynites have the single strongest sense of burough pride and a large number of them that are currently Knicks fans will probably switch right away. Furthermore, it's the most populous and despite chronic census under counting, boasts an official 2.6 million people. That's a pretty damn large pool to draw from if you're the Nyets.

There was a good amount of backlash wrt to "Atlantic Yards", of which the new arena is part of, as a dystopic developer's dream only boondogle, but by the time I left last summer most of that had seemed to wash away. You might have some hardcore people in Brooklyn Heights and Brownstone Brooklyn that will be opposed to the Nyets on political grounds, but it's a miniscule fraction of the total base.

We shall see.
   800. Der-K, the bloodied charmer Posted: December 11, 2011 at 02:03 AM (#4012864)
Jason rich 4/25 w orl
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