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Friday, December 02, 2011

NBA THREAD DECEMBER: POST-LOCKOUT

With the lockout over, I estimate that there may be more than 10-12 Primates who want to talk about the NBA, and with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: fractional reserve banking, and Tim Tebow.

robinred Posted: December 02, 2011 at 12:26 AM | 3254 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: general

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   801. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 11, 2011 at 02:03 AM (#4012868)
Jason Jones: Westphal said he'd be surprised if his starting 5 wasn't Evans, Thornton, Salmons, Hayes and Cousins. 2 minutes ago

Adrian Wojnarowski: Boston-NO deal for David West still on hold, sources say. Waiting on NBA. C's rookies, JaJuan Johnson and E'Twan Moore discussed in deal. 1 minute ago

KC Johnson: Most #Bulls could've offered JRich is 4 years, $20.5M. He signs with ORL for 4 years, 25M. about 10 minutes ago

KC Johnson: To be clear, #Bulls never offered full, 4-year MLE to JRich. Yet another attraction of Rip is shorter-term deal. about 7 minutes ago

   802. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: December 11, 2011 at 02:06 AM (#4012874)
Apparently the Lakers and Hornets have re-submitted the Paul trade to the league. My only comment on this development is that I think it would be hilarious if the two teams kept submitting the exact same trade, every day, like Bart and Lisa asking Homer "Are we there yet?"
   803. Chicago Joe Posted: December 11, 2011 at 02:18 AM (#4012899)
But he is so absolutely bad at everything else that makes the NBA a big man's game, he's literally wasting the Sixers time and money by them having to share their practice facilities with him, by having to wash his practice jerseys and have him drink their water, by having him breathe in oxygen that could be used by other players instead.


Illinois fan, I take it.
   804. andrewberg Posted: December 11, 2011 at 02:29 AM (#4012914)
I want to put in writing that I think brandon Roy will play in the NBA again.

That deal makes me wonder if J Rich had any other serious offers.
   805. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 11, 2011 at 02:31 AM (#4012918)
Apparently the Lakers and Hornets have re-submitted the Paul trade to the league. My only comment on this development is that I think it would be hilarious if the two teams kept submitting the exact same trade, every day, like Bart and Lisa asking Homer "Are we there yet?"
that would only be topped by the outgoing players of the lakers and hornets staying the same, and HOU having to give patrick patterson to NOH to satisfy the league's desire for new orleans to get back young players.

Illinois fan, I take it.
so long as we're talking about sixers centers:

dlynamCSN: Vucevic has that soft touch from outside. The rookie doesn't look like a rookie. Poise. Same for LaVoy though they have been playing oversea
   806. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 11, 2011 at 04:15 AM (#4013021)
[Evan Dunlap] Evan Dunlap: . @SteveKylerNBA makes good points: says trades of friends Courtney Lee, Tony Battie, and Rashard Lewis "blindsided" Dwight. about 55 minutes ago

[Brian Schmitz] Brian Schmitz: If you want to know why players play and GMs GM, here you go: Dwight Howard did not want Gilbert Arenas to be waived via amnesty about 54 minutes ago
[Steve Kyler] Steve Kyler: According to @PaulCoro - Toronto's doctors flagged something in Pietrus' MRI exam on his right knee - MP was traded for cash & 2nd pick 1 minute ago

Steve Kyler: After work in Toronto Raptors medical staff determined that Pietrus needed two to four more weeks to be cleared for play & nixed the trade 3 minutes ago

   807. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: December 11, 2011 at 04:34 AM (#4013043)
Re: Nets/Knicks market

I think the Nets are going to have an uphill battle to dig into the Knicks market, but if they are able to pull off a Howard deal AND be more successful than this current Knick team, they can do so. At this point, the Knicks almost have a loveable loser/Cubs thing going with them having maintained relevancy far more than their on court accomplishments may merit. I disagree with whoever said the Marbury post-hype lasted longer than the Melo period did. Most casual Knicks fans I know legitimately thought that if STAT hadn't been hurt in last year's playoffs the Knicks may have made some noise. Now, with STAT presumably healthy and with the Chandler acquisition most of the stats guys are on board with this (potentially) being the best Knicks team we've seen in 15+ years (check out the excitement in the Knickerblogger discussion board).
   808. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2011 at 04:37 AM (#4013047)
Last year, I thought the STAT/Melo Knicks were a dreadful idea. I think the STAT/Melo/Chandler Knicks will actually be a pretty good team. I think Chandler is really high leverage for that team.
   809. Into the Void Posted: December 11, 2011 at 04:46 AM (#4013056)
I think the Nets are going to have an uphill battle to dig into the Knicks market, but if they are able to pull off a Howard deal AND be more successful than this current Knick team, they can do so. At this point, the Knicks almost have a loveable loser/Cubs thing going with them having maintained relevancy far more than their on court accomplishments may merit.


I don't know any Knicks fans and am all the way across the country, but to me a more apt comparison might be the Dodgers. Wouldn't some Knicks fans be so fed up with losing and the ugliness of the Dolan ownership that they would jump ship to the Nets if they start winning soon after they move?
   810. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: December 11, 2011 at 04:55 AM (#4013059)
I don't know any Knicks fans and am all the way across the country, but to me a more apt comparison might be the Dodgers. Wouldn't some Knicks fans be so fed up with losing and the ugliness of the Dolan ownership that they would jump ship to the Nets if they start winning soon after they move?

Is this to say Knicks:Nets::Dodgers:Angels (without the title/aughts sucess)? I could see that. As bad as the Knicks have been they had the NY and the '70s/'90s thing. The Nets have been terrible and their history is...Derrick Coleman, Kenny Anderson and Kim Kardashian's ex-husband? I suppose I could add Jay-Z, but the Nets could go 0 for 82 and he'd look at me like this #### gravy.
   811. Into the Void Posted: December 11, 2011 at 05:01 AM (#4013064)
Oh how soon the Jason Kidd era is forgotten...
   812. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2011 at 05:06 AM (#4013069)
I thought it was the Aaron Williams era.
   813. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: December 11, 2011 at 05:09 AM (#4013071)
Oh how soon the Jason Kidd era is forgotten...

Exactly. I completely forgot this happened. I think more people in the tri-state area cared when the Sixers were in the Finals than when the Nets were.
   814. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 05:20 AM (#4013074)
Howard has been quoted a couple of times to the effect of, "I don't want to do the Shaq thing." If he came here, he'd be answering Shaq questions every day. He'd be answering "is this still Kobe's team?" questions every day. If he came here with Paul, he'd be answering SuperTeam 2 questions every day.

In Brooklyn, it would be almost like starting a new team, and as NJ notes, the Nets don't have much history. If Howard and Williams won ONE title, it would be a gigantic deal. Williams is the type of player--and I think the type of personality--who works well with Howard.

The Nets could still change the name down the line; if they don't, I would go retro with the unis--go back to Dr. J era stars-down-the-side-ones, with more modern tailoring--like the Wizards just did with their unis. I think the road ones, with "Brooklyn" on the front, would sell zillions.

So, that has always made the most sense for Howard...but then I never thought the Lakers would get Chris Paul, much less then have the deal vetoed, so who knows what will happen next?

And, again, if the Lakers are going through with this Paul deal and the league approves (does it seem like that should be a 10-hour+ process? Not sure.)and Howard is not coming, then the team needs to get a big that can play some (Okafor or Scola) back in the modified version, for "basketball reasons."
   815. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 05:23 AM (#4013077)
I don't know how things would be in the Tri-State area, but I do think that the D12/DWill Brooklyn Nets would be:

a) A powerful international/national merchandising brand
b) Obviously a TNT/ESPN staple, particularly when they played the Knicks.
   816. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: December 11, 2011 at 05:31 AM (#4013079)
Apparently there's a rumor the Knicks are trying to make a move for Barea which would involve DWTDD going to DAL. I'm not going to claim objectivity here as this would rob me of my favorite Knick, but I don't like it.
   817. tshipman Posted: December 11, 2011 at 05:33 AM (#4013082)
In Brooklyn, it would be almost like starting a new team, and as NJ notes, the Nets don't have much history. If Howard and Williams won ONE title, it would be a gigantic deal. Williams is the type of player--and I think the type of personality--who works well with Howard.


I don't know how I feel about that team. It seems like it needs a fair bit of help. They need upgrades at 3 positions (admittedly, the three easiest to fill positions).

Not sure how long that core group has together.
   818. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 05:43 AM (#4013086)
It seems like it needs a fair bit of help.


Sure. The Bulls and Heat are solid favorites in the East this year, no matter where Howard is. Boston is still #3 IMO. But over the next 3-4 years, FAs would be down with joining Brooklyn, and Prokhorov does not seem like a guy who will be afraid of the luxury tax. Also, according to the stathead types, the two worst starting positions in the NBA last year were:

Lakers PG
Nets SF

A competent SF + Howard would make that team much better in short order. Howard would actually probably have more impact on D for the Nets than on O--but he would still have a huge impact.
   819. The District Attorney Posted: December 11, 2011 at 05:56 AM (#4013090)
the Nets could go 0 for 82
And almost did!

More importantly, Woj 1:
The three-way deal to send Chris Paul to the Lakers has "fallen apart," league source involved in talks says.
2:
Lakers and Hornets won't pursue a direct deal for Chris Paul either, source says. "L.A. can't give them what they need," source says.

And Stein:
Sources say Lakers will instead trade Lamar Odom to Dallas into Mavericks' new trade exception
   820. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: December 11, 2011 at 05:58 AM (#4013091)
[819] What's the point of trading Odom to DAL for the LAL?
   821. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 06:01 AM (#4013095)
Well, according to my man berg, Woj is a hack. So we will see. ;-

But...whoa. And Odom to Dallas? Chess game going on here if that is true.

ESPNLA has it up now.

Fanbase will freak...Howard requests deal to NJ, Paul deal off table, and Odom (and his team-friendly deal) will be helping Cuban and Co. offset loss of Chandler or will make a nice trade chip.

If this stuff is accurate, and they can't land Howard, BussChak needs a hell of a Plan C.
   822. The District Attorney Posted: December 11, 2011 at 06:21 AM (#4013106)
FWIW, it has been said that:
Magic are shopping Dwight Howard beyond just the teams of his choice

Then again, it has also been said that:
handing Dwight over to the state nemesis for LeBron James would be gut-wrenching for Magic and Heat fans. But if the franchises also take the emotion out of it -- and past petty bitterness -- it's actually a great deal for both teams.

Ah, here's Stein now:
Lakers have clearly made decision to focus on trying to acquire Dwight Howard. Lining up rest of their assets to duel New Jersey for DH12
   823. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 06:33 AM (#4013114)
My guess (and it is nothing more than that) is that BussChak will try to pull off a massive deal with Orlando, involving Bynum, Gasol, Howard, a third team, and maybe some combo of Nelson,and Turkoglu.

But I would have enjoyed Chris Paul in a Lakers uniform, wherever the deal led. I wish that(Rosenkrantz and) Gil-n-Stern were dead.
   824. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: December 11, 2011 at 06:34 AM (#4013116)
Only official amnesties so far are Arenas and Billups, right?

also richard jefferson.


No, he has not been amnestied. And as of the last report, won't be. The Spurs whiffed on all the SFs (Butler, Battier, Hill).

---

Magic are shopping Dwight Howard beyond just the teams of his choice

KC Johnson (Bulls beat) is saying the Bulls are planning on pursuing him. Not sure how, since it appears they can't trade Noah, and he would have have to be prominently involved.

Illinois fan, I take it.

Already forgotten about our Weber discussion from just a couple weeks ago? And just when I was starting to think you might have been right about the offense, the St. Bonnies game happened. Blah.

Odom (and his team-friendly deal) will be helping Cuban and Co. offset loss of Chandler or will make a nice trade chip.

That would mean the Lakers are getting a trade exemption, so that way they can take Hedo's contract back in a deal for Howard. I'm not sure Bynum and Howard can play together, but I would have to think the Lakers are still considering moving Gasol. Maybe this is part of a larger 3 team deal, but it would have to be close for the Lakers to pull the trigger on the Odom part (and even though he's a nice get for Dallas, is Cuban really helping the Lakers get Howard?).
   825. akrasian Posted: December 11, 2011 at 06:46 AM (#4013122)
(and even though he's a nice get for Dallas, is Cuban really helping the Lakers get Howard?).

The Hornets apparently want Odom. Maybe they figure that this trade helps them get Chris Paul.
   826. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 06:51 AM (#4013125)
That would mean the Lakers are getting a trade exemption, so that way they can take Hedo's contract back in a deal for Howard.


I think they could have done that anyway, at least according to the trade machine. The fanbase's preferred deal for months has been Bynum and Odom for Howard and Turkoglu (not saying Orlando would have done that, mind you--just that Lakers fans wanted it) and according to the Trade Machine, it worked under the old CBA. Ditto Bynum and Gasol for Howard and Turkoglu (and Nelson) if we assume, as has been reported, that Orlando is insisting on Bynum and Gasol.

Nelson's deal is 8.6M/year and runs out in two years, before the tax kicks in, so the Lakers might be trying to bring him in along with Howard.

As far as Cuban, like I said, I think it's a chess game. My WAG is that Cuban thinks the Lakers will lose on Howard, and then Cuban himself will be ready to pounce on Williams or Paul, and maybe even Howard, in 2012. In the meantime, he will have a motivated Odom wanting to stick it to the Lakers. Pretty shrewd.

As to Buss and Kupchak, Jerry West threw players he liked overboard at the last minute to clear more space for Shaq. But none of those guys were nearly as good as Odom, and none of them went to the defending NBA champs. And Shaq WANTED to be here; Howard may not.

I feel a little bad for Paul, or as bad as you can feel for a rich NBA star in this situation. Assuming he really wanted to play out here, I think he got screwed by the owners.
   827. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 06:53 AM (#4013126)
The Hornets apparently want Odom. Maybe they figure that this trade helps them get Chris Paul.


That, too.

If Stern approved a Paul trade to Dallas after rejecting the Lakers deal, well, I would be a bit peeved, particularly after Cuban's speech about the CBA and his opposition to the Paul/Gasol/Odom deal.
   828. The District Attorney Posted: December 11, 2011 at 06:55 AM (#4013127)
Stein:
Sources close to the situation tell ESPN that Clippers have emerged as "early frontrunner" to acquire CP3 now that Lakers out of running
   829. The District Attorney Posted: December 11, 2011 at 07:30 AM (#4013154)
I feel a little bad for Paul, or as bad as you can feel for a rich NBA star in this situation. Assuming he really wanted to play out here, I think he got screwed by the owners.
Hey, they will have proven that a player can't dictate what team he plays for. Only the city.
   830. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2011 at 07:37 AM (#4013160)
If I'm Blake Griffin, I cant think of a point guard I'd run the PNR with than CP3. If I'm CP3, I can't think of a guy I'd rather distribute the ball to than Blake Griffin.

If CP3 goes to the Clippers, Stern better keep Sterling on a leash, because that'll be a fun team to watch, until Sterling *($#s it all up.
   831. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 07:46 AM (#4013164)
   832. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 11, 2011 at 07:58 AM (#4013166)
The Stern veto and subsequent reverberations, on the heels of the lockout, have really sapped my interest in the upcoming NBA season. I like my basketball action on the court, and all we have are rich guys throwing tantrums over their expensive toys. I've got better things to do.
   833. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 09:39 AM (#4013182)
I alluded to this when mocking Bill James, but I think one thing worth remembering, assuming the deal is dead: Houston. Daryl Morey's plan to try to get the Rockets in the mix by pariring up Nene and Pau is apparently dead, along with the Paul/Lakers deal, and however one feels about the Lakers or Stern, that should be kept in mind.

Also:

There is apparently some dispute about whether the Lakers "pulled out" or "Stern said no again" is the best way to describe this.

Rumors about that the Clippers are now willing to include Eric Gordon in a Paul deal.
   834. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 11, 2011 at 04:36 PM (#4013261)
Tom Ziller: Warriors to sign DeAndre Jordan to $40M/4 offer sheet today; Bell, not Biedrins, would be waived http://sbn.to/tMZxt6 3 minutes ago
   835. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 11, 2011 at 04:54 PM (#4013273)
Chris Broussard: As reported Fri, union told Stern it will pursue litigation if no suitable CP trade made by Monday. Claim could be collusion, sources say 3 minutes ago
   836. Tripon Posted: December 11, 2011 at 05:27 PM (#4013292)
The League isn't going to find an owner for the Hornets at this rate.
   837. tshipman Posted: December 11, 2011 at 06:26 PM (#4013354)
Not sure how I feel about trading Odom in advance in order to try to improve offers for Howard. Is that really necessary? Seems odd to trade away an asset . . .

Wouldn't the Odom to Dallas deal have been there later?
   838. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 06:45 PM (#4013364)
Not sure how I feel about trading Odom in advance in order to try to improve offers for Howard. Is that really necessary? Seems odd to trade away an asset . . .

Wouldn't the Odom to Dallas deal have been there later?


____

A TPE for Odom was part of the original deal that Stern nixed, so that has probably been part of BussChak's thinking for awhile. As to what it means, what happens now, etc. here is what Brian Kamenetzky had to say:

Remember, they're handing Odom to the team [that eliminated] them from last season's playoffs. It strengthens the Mavericks, a team that just lost Tyson Chandler and will soon lose J.J. Barea.

The only way the Lakers throw Mark Cuban a life preserver is if they believe the payoff is worth it.



That said, keeping in mind the quality of the team they could be blowing up, creating something better is a very difficult task. Kobe Bryant+Howard+spare parts is not better than Kobe+Gasol+Bynum+Odom.

Meaning for Lakers fans, this is simultaneously exciting and frightening. In a week or two, Jim Buss is likely either going to look brilliant, or there will be many a torch and pitchfork outside the facility in El Segundo.


I get BussChak wanting to reboot--the team is old, expensive, has issues and Paul and Howard are on the block. But it was still a good team last year, and it was good because of Bryant and the three-man big rotation. The problems came from the fact that the other guys mostly suck. Odom has his faults, but the Lakers just handed a very fine player who can still play and has a very team-friendly contract to a rival. Moves in which you are trying to look smarter than everyone else are often mistakes and are always risks.

All these events/non-events are working very much in OKC's favor. They have everybody in camp, working together, no personnel losses, no issues, Durant locked up. Chandler's departure, even though Odom will help Dallas, makes OKC the clear favorite in the West as of today.
   839. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 11, 2011 at 06:46 PM (#4013366)
Not sure how I feel about trading Odom in advance in order to try to improve offers for Howard. Is that really necessary? Seems odd to trade away an asset . . .
my guess would be that, if the plan is now to package bynum and gasol for howard, the odom trade exception would allow the team to go after another contributor in a sign and trade next offseason. the TPE would give them that extra bullet. n

Wouldn't the Odom to Dallas deal have been there later?
but i think that has more to do with odom's reaction to having already been traded once, and a bridge having been crossed, or some such.

Tom Ziller: Warriors to sign DeAndre Jordan to $40M/4 offer sheet today; Bell, not Biedrins, would be waived http://sbn.to/tMZxt6 3 minutes ago
also, with this, the cap hold for deandre jordan is just a little over 1mm. if LAC matches, there would be an added hurdle w/r/t trading for either howard or paul, since they'd have to match salaries, as opposed to using their cap space as a buffer for incoming salary.
   840. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 06:57 PM (#4013369)
but i think that has more to do with odom's reaction to having already been traded once, and a bridge having been crossed, or some such.


People are saying this, and it may be the case. If so, though, I think it was a little hasty. Maybe Buss should have waited a day or two, talked to Odom, etc. No way to know from where we are. Buss may have just panicked and Cuban/Nelson took advantage.

The Clippers' offer is supposedly:

Kaman/Aminu/Bledsoe/Minn lottery pick

The three guys combined make about 200K more than Chris Paul does. Kaman makes 12.2M but his deal ends after this year. Bucher Tweeted that this offer in his opinion is in fact better for NO than getting Scola/Martin/Dragic/Odom.
   841. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 11, 2011 at 07:34 PM (#4013388)
Man, I would probably really like Kobe were it not for well what none of us want to rehash.
Beto Duran @DuranLA
Kobe "I don't see Cuban protesting this trade"[/qutoe]
   842. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2011 at 07:52 PM (#4013407)

Man, I would probably really like Kobe were it not for well what none of us want to rehash.


I know June is a long time away, but I think 6/24 is kind of a "free day" for anything and everything people want to say about Kobe. We get it out of our system then, and move on.
   843. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 11, 2011 at 07:59 PM (#4013412)
Kaman/Aminu/Bledsoe/Minn lottery pick

Bucher Tweeted that this offer in his opinion is in fact better for NO than getting Scola/Martin/Dragic/Odom
personally, i think aminu and bledsoe are ####. i mean, they're young and they have potential, but they're not gonna be productive players on their rookie deals, so you're basically babysitting them for 3 years in the hopes that you can pay them market value by the time that they might actually be valuable contributors.

According to sources, the Philadelphia 76ers and Denver Nuggets have had advanced discussions about a trade that would send center Marreese Speights from Philly to Denver for a future second-round pick.
that sounds like an absolutely awful return. i completely understand the desire to trade him, but for all his faults, he's still an NBA caliber PF, and to trade him for that would just be throwing away a talented player at the absolute lowpoint of his value. i don't think he's ever again going to be a significant contributor to the sixers, but if he has a couple good runs off the bench and another team gets beset by injuries, who knows? maybe you can get 2 second round picks.
   844. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: December 11, 2011 at 08:02 PM (#4013417)
And now the Knicks are trying to get Jamal Crawford in a 3-way deal that would involve giving up DWTDD? I'm just not following.
   845. nick swisher hygiene Posted: December 11, 2011 at 08:04 PM (#4013421)
gotta say, while Stern's power move was some bullshit, I do like seeing teams have to think and act fast facing compressed deadlines.

I mean, the Odom move--wtf? either it's panic, or a reasoned decision to punt on this coming season, figuring what with the strike-shortened schedule it won't be part of Tradition anyway ;-)
   846. tshipman Posted: December 11, 2011 at 08:14 PM (#4013436)
And now the Knicks are trying to get Jamal Crawford in a 3-way deal that would involve giving up DWTDD? I'm just not following.


Is this the first ever clone for prototype trade? Geneticist history made!
   847. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: December 11, 2011 at 08:32 PM (#4013454)
NJ, why post DWTDD instead of "Douglas" ?
   848. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 08:38 PM (#4013460)
Re-posted from a Laker blog I post at--skip it if you're sick of Laker ####:

Kobe on Odom trade “I don’t like it.”


Jim Buss is going to get excoriated if this goes south on the Lakers, but in fairness to him, it is pretty easy to see the chessboard, as he probably saw it, now:

1. Demps doesn’t want Rondo.
2. Paul is unwilling to commit long-term to two orgs with a history of failure and given the CBA, so Gordon and Curry are not offered by LAC and GS.
3. The Lakers, lacking young assets, make the best offer they can: Gasol and Odom. They do this because the Lakers figure that Paul’s presence here would sway Howard to put his reservations aside and want to come to LA.
4. Howard would then go to Otis Smith and demand to be sent here, forcing Smith to take a Bynum + package, perhaps making use of the TPE.

Would it have worked? We will probably never know, but I think we should leave open the possibility that the Odom/Dallas thing is not so they can go after Howard, but, instead, to take one more run at Paul. We do know that the Howard NJ announcement came right after the Paul deal was killed.

And, if Smith said "no deal" or Howard preferred to go elsewhere, well, Buss and Kupchak have still replaced Derek Fisher with Chris Paul and have a few cards to play (the two TPEs, the mini-MLE) to try to shore up the frontcourt. Not a bad Plan B.

So, if this all falls apart and the Lakers crash, we should remember that they had a two-step plan and completed Step 1. Buss may be dumb, but he did seem to know what he was trying to do here.
   849. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 08:40 PM (#4013461)
We get it out of our system then, and move on.


If it is not out of your system by now, you need to take a laxative.
   850. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2011 at 08:42 PM (#4013462)
Because we can't let self-righteous moralizing about the NCAA be the exclusive property of the football threads. I found this tweet a great wrap-up of two things that are both wrong in different directions:

billtrocchiSI Bill Trocchi
Festus Ezili gets six games for accepting a hotel room. Yancy Gates gets six games for punching two players in the face.
   851. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2011 at 08:43 PM (#4013464)
[849]: I LOLed.
   852. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 11, 2011 at 08:43 PM (#4013465)
What do you guys think the Knicks' upside is this year?

Am I crazy for thinking they could finish 3rd in the East? I think the Heat and Bulls are definitely better, and while I think the Celtics are the next best team, I could see this schedule really hurting them.
   853. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: December 11, 2011 at 08:45 PM (#4013466)
NJ, why post DWTDD instead of "Douglas" ?

I really like acronyms and nicknames.
   854. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 08:52 PM (#4013471)
personally, i think aminu and bledsoe are ####. i mean, they're young and they have potential, but they're not gonna be productive players on their rookie deals, so you're basically babysitting them for 3 years in the hopes that you can pay them market value by the time that they might actually be valuable contributors.


Well, if the Clippers deal is the one that lands Paul, NO will have a really, really bad team this season. They currently have 5-6 guys under contract and have brought in some DLeague/rookie types so they can practice. Aaron Gray and David West are gone. They would probably be looking at something like:

1 Jack
2 Belinelli
3 Ariza
4 Okafor

5 Kaman

With Bledsoe and Aminu as the first two guys off the bench.

But the other side of it is they would have the Minny pick and AFAIK their own--almost certainly two lottery picks. Maybe they land Anthony Davis and Harrison Barnes and those guys become All-Stars. Or maybe they get the 7th and the 9th picks and get nothing. Maybe they off-load Kaman's deal and get something good back. Or maybe they just wind up signing a lot of crappy veterans down the line to reach the salary floor and keep sucking.

On a simple level, though, I agree. I think the Clippers basically have two things NO should really want: Eric Gordon and the pick. The rest is mostly filler.
   855. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2011 at 08:54 PM (#4013472)
3rd isn't unreasonable for the Knicks. I wouldn't say they're definitively better than the Celtics, but its within the realm of argument now.
   856. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 08:55 PM (#4013473)
[849]: I LOLed.

If he played for another team, I would probably hate him too. It is what it is. I respect his work ethic, talent, and cold-bloodedness.
   857. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 11, 2011 at 09:12 PM (#4013483)
NJ, why post DWTDD instead of "Douglas" ?
i believe it stands for "do what toney douglas do"
What do you guys think the Knicks' upside is this year?

Am I crazy for thinking they could finish 3rd in the East? I think the Heat and Bulls are definitely better, and while I think the Celtics are the next best team, I could see this schedule really hurting them.
the sixers will get HFA and everyone else is just playing for 2nd place.
   858. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2011 at 09:14 PM (#4013484)
Henceforth, I shall refer to him as DW(DWTDD)D.
   859. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 09:17 PM (#4013488)
The sixers will get HFA and everyone else is just playing for 2nd place.


Who gets MVP, Thaddeus Young, or Andre Iguodala?
   860. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 11, 2011 at 09:19 PM (#4013491)
Who gets MVP, Thaddeus Young or Andre Iguodala?
evan turner.

plus he gets most improved player. iguodala gets defensive player of the year. young gets 6th man of the year. eurogoon will of course win rookie of the year.

jrue holiday will just have to settle for being starting PG at the all-star game.
   861. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2011 at 09:21 PM (#4013493)
And yet, throughout the season, STEAGLES still insists they need to move Iguodala.
   862. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 11, 2011 at 09:32 PM (#4013500)
And yet, throughout the season, STEAGLES still insists they need to move Iguodala.
hell, i had to edit one of the above posts so it didn't include an endorsement by me of the sixers trading iguodala to the lakers for odom's trade exception.


but i've really come around on iguodala. that pact i made with myself (to not say a disparaging word about iguodala until at least after thanksgiving) after he helped the US national team win (whatever the hell it was that they won) last offseason really helped me appreciate all the things he actually does do to help the team win games.

i just think his prominent role in the offense is detrimental to the development of thad, jrue, and evan turner. but i've mellowed on that some, too.
   863. tshipman Posted: December 11, 2011 at 09:36 PM (#4013503)
DW(DWTDD)D


Do what (Do what Toney Douglas Do) Did?

Is that right?

alternately--Do Waaa Diddy Wa Tony Douglas Do Dah
   864. andrewberg Posted: December 11, 2011 at 09:40 PM (#4013507)
David West settled in IND after the BOS thing fell through for 2/20. It's a petty small payday for an established guy despite the ill-timed injury. The idea that LAL PG and NJN SF were the worst positions in the NBA and easiest to improve could also include IND PF. Psycho-T does a few things, but West will help them a lot more and will allow them to continue running the inside-out offense through Hibbert. Or using the guards to drive, kick, and rotate. Even if their upside is something like a prorated 45-50 wins, they play a very appealing brand of basketball and are chalk full of likable players, so I will look forward to seeing them on TV.
   865. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 09:41 PM (#4013508)
Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
David West signs 2 years, $20 million with Pacers, source says


RicBucher Ric Bucher
Worth adding: Clips would only put in Minn #1 pick if CP3 is there for long term
   866. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 09:43 PM (#4013509)
ESPN link to latest on Indy bid for David West and talks w/Grizz to deal sign-and-traded Josh McRoberts for O.J. Mayo:


http://t.co/DAFBFDqr
about an hour ago
   867. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 11, 2011 at 10:12 PM (#4013524)
we've talked about the lakers end of this, but what does dallas look like now? they lost butler and they lost chandler, and they're going to lose barea, but they've added odom, they've added rudy fernandez, and they're gonna get a full season from roddy buckets.


odom isn't a small forward, but i think there's at least a chance that he could pick up some minutes at C. dallas plays a high percentage of zone, and unless i'm missing someone on their roster, odom, because of his length, is their best rim defender. it would be a risk for multiple reasons, but i'm not so sure that wouldn't be their best alignment.


also, what's the consensus opinion of ian mahinmi?
   868. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 11, 2011 at 10:26 PM (#4013529)
Alvaro Martin: YahooSports: #HoustonRockets offer $55 million for four years for #MarcGasol; #MemphisGrizzlies have three days to match offer sheet. 4 minutes ago


also, there's this:

Alvaro Martin: http://Oregonian.com: #KurtThomas leaves the #ChicagoBulls as free agent, signs for two seasons with the #PortlandTrailBlazers. about 2 hours ago
   869. Maxwn Posted: December 11, 2011 at 10:28 PM (#4013530)
also, what's the consensus opinion of ian mahinmi?

You just fouled out of the thread just by typing his name.
   870. robinred Posted: December 11, 2011 at 10:39 PM (#4013532)
but what does dallas look like now?


#2 in West, still very much a factor. Odom works well, as we have seen for four years now, on a good team as a "fill-in-the-blanks" guy.

ESPN reporting that Odom requested trade after Paul deal blew up.
   871. andrewberg Posted: December 11, 2011 at 10:48 PM (#4013537)
Odom will probably have to guard the 5 to get crunch time minutes. Can't see him playing ahead of Marion with what he gives on defense. Still, with dirk's offense, having odom will help offensive spacing, and he guarded 5s well for team USA. Haywood can guard Howard and Bynum then let odom do the rest. Kidd, Terry, Marion, dirk, LO with roddy, Rudy, Haywood. That still looks pretty damn good if dirk replicates his postseason heroics.
   872. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 11, 2011 at 11:19 PM (#4013552)
[KC Johnson] KC Johnson: #Pistons still haven't officially waived Hamilton. Waivers take 48 hours. Barring unexpected snag, guessing Rip at #Bulls camp midweek. 3 minutes ago

Jerry Zgoda: Interesting frontcourt: KLove at C, AR at pf, DW at sf about 5 minutes ago
if i'm not mistaken, in addition to those 3, MIN also has darko, pekovic, tolliver, beasley, hayward, and johnson vying for frontline minutes. storytellers also has martell webster and brad miller on their payroll, but that (that) would seem like overkill

[Jason Friedman] Jason Friedman: Underrated highlight of watching practice: seeing hyper-competitive players get just as upset at coaches for missed calls as they do at refs about 26 minutes ago

   873. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: December 11, 2011 at 11:22 PM (#4013554)
Alvaro Martin: http://Oregonian.com: #KurtThomas leaves the #ChicagoBulls as free agent, signs for two seasons with the #PortlandTrailBlazers. about 2 hours ago


2 years!
   874. andrewberg Posted: December 11, 2011 at 11:30 PM (#4013559)
if i'm not mistaken, in addition to those 3, MIN also has darko, pekovic, tolliver, beasley, hayward, and johnson vying for frontline minutes. storytellers also has martell webster and brad miller on their payroll, but that (that) would seem like overkill]


That's pretty much the lineup I've been saying I want to see. Maybe get the Beas in for AR more. Otherwise, miller and Webster are hurt, Johnson is likely to get burn at the two, and the others are situational players (match up with bigs or pick n pop). I am really looking forward to having a real coach this year.
   875. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2011 at 11:34 PM (#4013560)
Two days ago I was thrilled about the offseason moves. I hate the Knicks, and when their move is the one I'm most excited about. Blah.
   876. tshipman Posted: December 12, 2011 at 12:09 AM (#4013577)
Can't see him playing ahead of Marion with what he gives on defense.


This seems like a massive overrating of Marion. Odom probably *can* guard the 5, but he's basically the rich man's version of Shawn Marion.
   877. chris p Posted: December 12, 2011 at 12:33 AM (#4013598)
This seems like a massive overrating of Marion. Odom probably *can* guard the 5, but he's basically the rich man's version of Shawn Marion.

on offense, sure. but the thing that has always kept marion from being just another guy is his defense. specifically, his ability to stay in front of smaller guys.
   878. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 12, 2011 at 12:33 AM (#4013599)
Jared Zwerling: Mike Bibby: "I've always wanted to play for D'Antoni" - Knicks Blog - ESPN New York http://es.pn/tMdYYB about 6 minutes ago
:)

Sam Amick: Warriors amnestied Charlie Bell and rescinded qualifying offer to Reggie Willams. Both moves precursors to DeAndre Jordan offer sheet. about 15 minutes ago

[Josh Robbins] Josh Robbins: How about this tidbit from @Marc Stein? Gilbert "Arenas hopes to land on same team that trades for Dwight" about 8 minutes ago

This seems like a massive overrating of Marion. Odom probably *can* guard the 5, but he's basically the rich man's version of Shawn Marion.
if marion could still shoot the 3, there might be an argument, but at this point, between that and the ballhandling ability, and the (possible) ability to play the 5, odom is by far the more valuable player.
   879. Into the Void Posted: December 12, 2011 at 12:40 AM (#4013603)
The Warriors have offered DeAndre Jordan 4 years/$43 million. Seems like an overpay but he really does seem like a great fit for them.
   880. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: December 12, 2011 at 01:51 AM (#4013662)
gs should've saved their amnesty for biedrins, if you ask me.
moot, but iggy wouldn't have been obtainable under the odom tpe, too pricey.
   881. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 12, 2011 at 02:14 AM (#4013675)
this showed up in my rss:

So let’s look at how we develop a better future for the 76ers NOW:

1) Trade Speights for an expiring contract or anything else. No, I mean anything – a bucket of Gatorade, a signed pair of KD’s shoes, whatever….

2) Use the amnesty clause to knock Brand’s awful contract off the books. Yes, I know how solid his play was last year and it may be a smarter move to use the amnesty clause on Brand at the end of 2011-12, but I also know that EB is no where near a $16-18 million a year power forward and this post is about the NOW.

3) Dangle AI9 for expiring contracts and then trade him — finally.

4) Let Hawes walk.

Then Anoint “Big Nik” as the starting center.
Sign a journeyman backup to a 1 yr. deal to support the kid.
5) Move Nocioni through a trade for expiring contracts (Waiving him is also an option, but may not garner us enough cap space to make it worth while.).



i'm not even gonna address that point to point, except to say that this is why we can't have nice things. i am literally (as opposed to figuratively) ashamed to breathe the same air as this r-tard.
   882. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 12, 2011 at 02:44 AM (#4013692)
this showed up in my rss:
oh ####. that was part 2.


this is part 1:

The worst position on our roster is center. The most well-stocked position in free agency is center. Read those two sentences again.

...Jeff Foster, Greg Oden, and Joel Pryzbilla are also great options (at least upgrades with high ceilings)
   883. JJ1986 Posted: December 12, 2011 at 02:50 AM (#4013695)
Jeff Foster is about 40. Maybe he has a high ceiling in a seniors league.
   884. smileyy Posted: December 12, 2011 at 03:19 AM (#4013701)
I'm surprised Matt Geiger's name didn't come up.
   885. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: December 12, 2011 at 03:26 AM (#4013706)
I was thinking about Speights and the question of his trade value and... he doesn't have much. I like him - he's a solid scorer (though he doesn't get to the line that much) and is respectable on the glass, but he's a bad defender and passer and his intangibles aren't good and real foul prone and he's a free agent next year. He's kind of like Chris Wilcox, but with youth on his side - and Wilcox just signed for league minimum.

Jeff Foster has had a nice little career. The lockout won't help him but he's got a shot to move up to third on the Pacers career games list this season.
   886. JuanGone..except1game Posted: December 12, 2011 at 03:38 AM (#4013709)
Sam Amick: Warriors amnestied Charlie Bell and rescinded qualifying offer to Reggie Willams. Both moves precursors to DeAndre Jordan offer sheet. about 15 minutes ago


I had to look this up because I didn't believe it. If your using the Amnesty clause to get rid of a $4 million dollar/1 year committment to get DeAndre Jordan, you're not doing it right.

On my lakers, I'm worried that we are acting a little bit desperate at the moment. It does feel like lil' Jimmy Buss has his sweaty fingers all over this Lakers offseason. If they can't pull off a deal with Howard, they might have put this franchise back 2/3 years.
   887. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 12, 2011 at 04:02 AM (#4013721)

I was thinking about Speights and the question of his trade value and... he doesn't have much.
that's about where i am, but, unless there's a pressing need for his roster spot, i don't see the upside to trading him for what he's currently worth. he's a talented player; he can play in the post, he has range out to ~18 feet, he crashes the boards, but he's kind of mentally challenged. not that it takes a mensa member to be productive in the NBA, but speights just has an ugly combination of low intelligence, a short attention span, and poor work ethic that cripples any positive contribution he might otherwise be capable of making.

but still, a 6'10 forward who can put up 10 points in 6 minutes has gotta have some value. if not to another team, then what's it hurt to keep him in our own back pocket. this team is not likely to have a 14th man whose potential to positively impact a game is greater than speights'.



that being said, for (2) second round draft picks, i'd drive him to the airport myself.
   888. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 12, 2011 at 04:06 AM (#4013724)
If they can't pull off a deal with Howard, they might have put this franchise back 2/3 years.
i think that's too mild. if they can't pull off this whole series of moves, they've basically ended the kobe era. with how long and how hard he's played, how many more years of being an elite player does he really have left? if they completely whiff and have to rebuild again, i've gotta think that's just about it.
   889. Maxwn Posted: December 12, 2011 at 04:20 AM (#4013728)
I had to look this up because I didn't believe it. If your using the Amnesty clause to get rid of a $4 million dollar/1 year committment to get DeAndre Jordan, you're not doing it right.

Edit: I misunderstood who was amnestying Charlie Bell. Disregard.
   890. akrasian Posted: December 12, 2011 at 04:31 AM (#4013733)
i think that's too mild. if they can't pull off this whole series of moves, they've basically ended the kobe era. with how long and how hard he's played, how many more years of being an elite player does he really have left? if they completely whiff and have to rebuild again, i've gotta think that's just about it.

I think the Lakers had already decided that without major moves they would be good but not quite championship caliber, while being way over the cap. They'll pay the tax if they think they can win it all - but not for second round exits. So they tried to get a young player who is a big star who they could build around after Kobe, and who would be a great piece with Kobe for now anyway - but the league slapped them down. If it had gone through, either the Lakers would have gotten Howard and had a fantastic core, with a year needed to build depth, or they would still have Bynum who Buss the younger loves, giving them two players young enough to lead the team post Kobe.

Odom's an excellent complementary piece, but if they knew the Magic didn't want him, get something they might want (like cap space and a first round pick). The next day or two should settle a lot of things.
   891. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:00 AM (#4013749)
Bill Ingram: Grizzlies to match Houston's offer for Gasol | HOOPSWORLD | Basketball News & NBA Rumors http://www.hoopsworld.com/housto… via @HOOPSWORLD 1 minute ago

   892. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:49 AM (#4013778)
Zach Lowe: Important: @Jonathan Feigen reports NOH/league asked HOU to replace Dragic with Lowry in aborted CP3 deal: http://tinyurl.com/6lgg849 1 minute ago
   893. andrewberg Posted: December 12, 2011 at 06:11 AM (#4013784)
I'd say Houston is smart not to do that. If the trade went through and they signed nene, Lowry would probably be the third best player.
   894. Quaker Posted: December 12, 2011 at 06:24 AM (#4013790)
Who says no?
Lakers get--Howard, Turkoglu, Lee
Houston gets--Gasol, Duhon
Orlando gets--Bynum, Martin, Patterson, maybe a pick from Houston or Dragic?
   895. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: December 12, 2011 at 06:53 AM (#4013799)
Who says no?
i think houston. i know scola is a hell of a player, but i think they wanted to trade him so they could A) give patterson a larger role, but also B) clear cap space to make a run at nene. if they pulled off both, they'd have nene, gasol, and patterson at the 4/5, and that's a pretty solid grouping. taking on duhon and keeping scola pretty completely bollix up their primary motivation for dealing.
   896. Jimmy P Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:08 PM (#4013935)
I'd say Houston is smart not to do that. If the trade went through and they signed nene, Lowry would probably be the third best player.


I'd say Houston's not smart. Small scoring guards? There's lots of them. All-Star big men? Yeah, those are a bit harder to find. If Kyle Lowry is what stopped that trade, Morey deserves some criticism.
   897. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:14 PM (#4013942)
ESPN link to latest on Indy bid for David West and talks w/Grizz to deal sign-and-traded Josh McRoberts for O.J. Mayo:

These would both be really solid moves for Indiana. A starting 5 of Hibbert/West/Granger/Mayo/Collison with George/Hansbrough/Hill/Foster as the main guys off the bench is not too shabby. Not good enough to overtake the Bulls in the Central, but I'd put them ahead of Milwaukee and could see them fighting for home court in the first round if things break right for them.

Alvaro Martin: http://Oregonian.com: #KurtThomas leaves the #ChicagoBulls as free agent, signs for two seasons with the #PortlandTrailBlazers. about 2 hours ago

I'm sorry to see him go. I'm guessing the 2nd year is what sealed the deal for him. I wouldn't be surprised also if the Blazers are offering a little more than the Bulls were - they are not going to risk going into the tax this year. #### you, Reinsdorf, and your $50mil in profits a year pocketing assface.

---

There's a lot of conflicting reports out there about the Paul to LAC deal. Some say Gordon is in it, others are adamant he isn't. That same thing applies to Bledsoe. If I'm NOH (or the NBA), I insist on Gordon. If I'm the Clippers, I insist on Bledsoe. ESPN says Paul has agreed to pick up his option for 12/13, which makes absolutely no sense since it's for less than what he'd get in a new 5 year deal he could sign with them. Supposedly that's what the Clips needed to include Minny's unprotected pick in the deal.
   898. Jimmy P Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:15 PM (#4013945)
No mention of Prokhorov running for President of Russia?
   899. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:26 PM (#4013961)
Additions to the amnesty list:

-Arenas (now a FA, supposedly wants to go wherever Dwight goes)
-Billups
-Charlie Bell (WTF, Warriors?)
-Hasheem Thabeet

Hollinger has Jefferson as amnestied by SA, but like I said, I thought last I saw he was still there. Anyone know for sure?
   900. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:27 PM (#4013963)
Oh, and JJ Berea gets a 4 year deal in Minnesota. WTF?
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