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Friday, December 02, 2011

NBA THREAD DECEMBER: POST-LOCKOUT

With the lockout over, I estimate that there may be more than 10-12 Primates who want to talk about the NBA, and with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: fractional reserve banking, and Tim Tebow.

rr Posted: December 02, 2011 at 12:26 AM | 3254 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: general

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   901. rr Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:28 PM (#4013964)
Flip
   902. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:30 PM (#4013965)
How is Prokhorov going to run the Nets from Siberia?
   903. rr Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:31 PM (#4013967)
Stern's media optics are a lot better on the deal if Gordon is in it. I would imagine that the league pressured Olshey and Sterling pretty hard on that point. It is obviously a far better return for NO, but this is also a case where appearance matters.

Tweets say there is a Fernandez/Brewer trade happening with CHI/DAL.
   904. Jimmy P Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:34 PM (#4013972)
Oh, and JJ Berea gets a 4 year deal in Minnesota. WTF?


All together now - KAHHHNNNN!!!!

Tweets say there is a Fernandez/Brewer trade happening with CHI/DAL.

I would LOVE this.

Stern's media optics are a lot better on the deal if Gordon is in it. I would imagine that the league pressured Olshey and Sterling pretty hard on that point. It is obviously a far better return for NO, but this is also a case where appearance matters.

If Gordon isn't in it, the Lakers should fire a collusion charge against the NBA. Because the only reason there trade was rejected would be because Dan Gilbert's a whiny #####.

I love how Gilbert is complaining about the "Washington Generals" now. He didn't do that much complaining when Lebron was on his team. Hmmm, wonder what changed?
   905. Quaker Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:36 PM (#4013975)
Pretty sure sources are saying Dallas is looking to move Fernandez & (Corey) Brewer. Don't believe the Bulls are involved.
   906. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:36 PM (#4013976)
Have you guys commented yet on Stern making Bill Simmons cry?
   907. JJ1986 Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:42 PM (#4013978)
DA:

Per a source who has been briefed on NO-LAC negotiations, the Hornets have to choose between the Minnesota pick and Gordon. Can't have both.
   908. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:52 PM (#4013993)
Which makes sense - both is too, too much.
   909. rr Posted: December 12, 2011 at 05:57 PM (#4014005)
Got bad info--DAL is trading Corey Brewer and Rudy. Got it from a buddy who misread. Sorry, guys.
   910. rr Posted: December 12, 2011 at 06:03 PM (#4014011)
@ Shooty

If the Clippers get Paul and keep Gordon, combined with the Lakers' bizarre decision to dump Odom and help out Mark Cuban, Simmons will be way too busy writing his "The Clippers own LA--and I have season tickets!" column to worry about Stern.
   911. andrewberg Posted: December 12, 2011 at 06:26 PM (#4014039)
My take on the Barea signing is that they see him as a SG to play next to a PG big enough to guard a 2 (read: Rubio). They need someone who can space the floor and get to the line, and Barea can do both of those things. The team has more than enough size and length to hide one undersized player. It also seems that 4-5 per year is about what Barea is worth. Despite all of this, I am not excited about the signing.
   912. Jimmy P Posted: December 12, 2011 at 06:30 PM (#4014042)
The team has more than enough size and length to hide one undersized player. It also seems that 4-5 per year is about what Barea is worth. Despite all of this, I am not excited about the signing.

The problems for this signing that I see are:

1) Yet another point guard. Seriously, Kahn signs one a year. And overpays all of them.
2) Defensively, this could be the worst backcourt in the NBA
3) 4 years? A bit long for a guy who's very short, depends on quickness, and really seemed to be a product of the system
   913. Squash Posted: December 12, 2011 at 06:30 PM (#4014045)
I must be one of the only ones who thinks Gordon is overrated (poking around, it looks like Hollinger thinks so too). Yes he's good, but small guards who can only score (he can't rebound, he has trouble with big SGs, he can't distribute - I think Curry is overrated too, and I'm a Warriors fan, but at least he can sort of distribute) aren't a lacking commodity. Yes Gordon is a particularly good only-scoring guard, but the replacement level for a player like that is pretty high.
   914. JC in DC Posted: December 12, 2011 at 06:37 PM (#4014055)
The Barea signing seems like it's a bit much, both in years and $$$. It does position Minny to trade a PG, however, and there are a few teams that could use someone like Ridnour (including NY).
   915. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 12, 2011 at 06:47 PM (#4014064)
Not big on the Barea signing - too much $, too many years, stuff Jimmy said. Mentor Rubio on how to take charges?

Gordon is certainly overrated, but - as you note - he's also good.

Simmons will be too busy at Kings games to talk about the Clippers...

McRoberts + Rush = Mayo happened.
   916. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 12, 2011 at 07:07 PM (#4014085)
@Chris_Broussard: Source insists LAC offering Gordon/Kaman/Aminu/Sota pick for CP3. LAC don't want Gordon reported in case deal collapses
@Chris_Broussard: LAC don't want LOdom repeat. Want to extend Gordon if CP3 falls through. NBA running deal for NO & wants Bledsoe added


I don't know if that's a comment more on Stern's manhandling of the situation or just the nature of how quickly rumors spread. I guess this case is more of the former, but wouldn't be surprised to see it happen more. Of course, it's a little funny how there are sources spreading rumors about sources...

ESPNSteinLine: Chauncey Billups scheduled to clear waivers tonight at 6PM but hearing Bobcats considering bid for CB despite his "don't claim me" threats


Good. I hope they do.
   917. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: December 12, 2011 at 07:14 PM (#4014095)
Gordon's also supposed to be a good defender.
   918. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 12, 2011 at 07:24 PM (#4014108)
Simmons will be too busy at Kings games to talk about the Clippers...

Heh.
   919. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 12, 2011 at 07:32 PM (#4014120)
@Chris_Broussard: Hearing rumblings that league may have pulled out of CP deal

@Chris_Broussard: Nothing definitive on CP trade yet...still possible...league driving hard bargain


They have to, after what they did with the Lakers deal. It has to be clear to *everyone* that the Hornets got a better deal this time.
   920. rr Posted: December 12, 2011 at 07:32 PM (#4014121)
WindhorstESPN Brian Windhorst
After meeting with team, Dwight Howard seemed to re-open door to staying with Magic if there are "changes." Story coming.
about a minute ago


____

I think all these guys would be better off if they just said they are not going to comment on trade negotiations.
   921. rr Posted: December 12, 2011 at 07:36 PM (#4014127)
They have to, after what they did with the Lakers deal. It has to be clear to *everyone* that the Hornets got a better deal this time

Indeed. Like I said, IMO Stern needs Gordon in the deal for the media optics (and Gordon makes the deal better for basketball reasons as well of course--he's a good player).
   922. andrewberg Posted: December 12, 2011 at 07:38 PM (#4014131)
We still need about 4 more people for this thread's fantasy hoops league. It won't require a ton of time or effort and most of the strategy is common sense. I hope a few of you guys will sign up so we can get a good league going again.

Name- BTF NBA fantasy league
League #- 35100
password- primate

Please sign up, or else I am going to have to start spamming the thread like the lounge league did.
   923. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 12, 2011 at 07:42 PM (#4014139)
What's the link?
   924. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 12, 2011 at 07:43 PM (#4014142)
Andrew, if it's a Yahoo league, it's telling me that there isn't room in the league if all teams from last year return, and the commissioner needs to remove teams or increase the max.
   925. andrewberg Posted: December 12, 2011 at 07:46 PM (#4014150)
I will try to fix that. Anyone who wants to be invited or get a direct link, I think I might need an email, so you can direct message me your email address and I can try to send it that way.
   926. andrewberg Posted: December 12, 2011 at 07:50 PM (#4014155)
Try to sign up this way: http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/btfnba

I increased the max number of teams, so hopefully it will let more people in. If it gets to 10 or 12, I will just change the cap back to that number.
   927. smileyy Posted: December 12, 2011 at 07:54 PM (#4014165)
There hadn't been space the last times I'd tried to sign up. I'm looking forward to it.

SBB: http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/nba
   928. smileyy Posted: December 12, 2011 at 07:57 PM (#4014174)
Whoa, its an auction draft. That'll be something new.
   929. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 12, 2011 at 07:59 PM (#4014180)
Worked for me this time. Auction will be interesting and fun for me too.
   930. JJ1986 Posted: December 12, 2011 at 08:00 PM (#4014181)
I joined.
   931. JJ1986 Posted: December 12, 2011 at 08:06 PM (#4014194)
The Hornets-Clippers deal for Chris Paul has died, league source tells Y! Sports.


It's going to be really hard to trade Paul anywhere now. Maybe Gilbert can force a deal to Cleveland.
   932. rr Posted: December 12, 2011 at 08:16 PM (#4014205)
I like Eric Gordon, and I really like unprotected lottery picks owned by the Timberwolves.

But if this is true, and if the stuff about Paul's signing for two years was true, I think the Clippers should have pulled the trigger. Having Paul + Griffin with the Lakers scrambling, capped out, and in some trouble was/is potentially a big moment for the Clippers. Remember--they have Mo Williams to slide in at the 2. He is a decent scorer and player.

I get that others, like DK, will disagree for analytical reasons, and I respect that. But I think there are times to say "fukc it" and make your move in sports and in life, and I think this may have been one of those times for the Clippers.

Again--if this is true.
   933. steagles Posted: December 12, 2011 at 08:28 PM (#4014220)
i just found this today:

Strengths

Post Offense

Standing at 6’10? Nikola Vucevic is a big body who had a height advantage over most of his defenders. Smartly, USC decided to use this size to their advantage by posting Vucevic over 42% of the time. When he makes the catch on the block[**], Vucevic is at his best when he is turning around his left shoulder. This means when he makes the catch on the left block, he’s turning to the middle and when he is making the catch on the right block, he is turning towards the baseline. In terms of PPP when turning around his left shoulder, Vucevic posted a PPP of 1.111 on the left block and a PPP 1.182 on the right block (both numbers in the top 15 percent of all college players).


[**]from later in the article:

Weaknesses

Turnovers

...There are two problems I have with Vucevic. First, he doesn’t have the greatest hands. He can make the catch (most of the time) if the pass comes right too him, but if he has to reach for it, it will more often than not clang off of his hands. Once Vucevic does make the catch, he has a tendency to bring the basketball down. This is a huge problem for someone with Vucevic’s size because he is basically bringing the basketball down to everyone else and letting them get their hands on it, knocking it away. Vucevic needs to learn how to make the catch, keep the basketball high, and quickly going up with it. That will help prevent turnovers.


there was also this wonderful video to accompany that section.



still, i'm very optimistic about eurogoon's potential to immediately provide positive contributions to the sixers on both ends of the court.

also, just looking at the other center prospects who were profiled, this video of valanciunas is absolutely hilarious. it's like you can see his eyes light up when he gets out to the top of the key to set a screen, and then you can see his hopes get crushed when he doesn't get the ball.
   934. andrewberg Posted: December 12, 2011 at 08:30 PM (#4014222)
Ok, we have our 10 teams. Draft is set for Sunday at 5 ET/2 PT. It was originally set for 7 PT (which I thought was 7 ET when I picked it), but that is too late for east coast people. If you cannot make it to the draft, please try to set your auction values before so you end up with a serviceable team. I think someone did that last year and actually ended up with a really good team.

If anyone else wants to be added, direct message me. If we get an even number, I can add 2 more teams at a time.
   935. Yardape Posted: December 12, 2011 at 09:08 PM (#4014251)
But if this is true, and if the stuff about Paul's signing for two years was true, I think the Clippers should have pulled the trigger. Having Paul + Griffin with the Lakers scrambling, capped out, and in some trouble was/is potentially a big moment for the Clippers. Remember--they have Mo Williams to slide in at the 2. He is a decent scorer and player.


As a Clippers fan, I agree. I know there are downsides, but I wouldn't have blinked at trading Gordon for Paul.
   936. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: December 12, 2011 at 09:10 PM (#4014258)
It's so hard to get a superstar in the NBA...you really can't give up too much to get one.
   937. andrewberg Posted: December 12, 2011 at 09:17 PM (#4014272)
Someone tweeted that Gordon, Bledsoe, Aminu, the MIN pick, and Kaman's deal are the 5 most valuable assets LAC has (other than Blake). It is pretty close to not being worth it, but I think they should have gone for it and figured that Paul & Griffin, with Joran, Williams, and Butler in the lineup and whatever supporting cast eventually made its way out there would be enough to be a legitimate contender. By keeping those 5 assets, aren't they just hoping another deal comes along anyway?
   938. smileyy Posted: December 12, 2011 at 09:26 PM (#4014292)
CP3 + Griffin + some league average parts are a team worth having.
   939. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 12, 2011 at 09:30 PM (#4014299)
It's so hard to get a superstar in the NBA...you really can't give up too much to get one.

As a Bulls fan in the 00's who watched so many valuable assets go from valuable to not valuable to overpaid to gone, I cannot agree more. The Bulls are so absolutely lucky to be in this situation now, with Rose having fallen into their lap. If it were up to the Bulls (and they hadn't lucked into Rose), they without a doubt would have definitely been trying to trade various pieces to get Paul* this past week, but never would have gotten as far as either the Lakers or Clippers have in the process.

*I guess it's still hypothetically possible for the Bulls to go through this solo dance and end up empty with Howard, but I truly believe they won't seriously try to trade for him.
   940. Jimmy P Posted: December 12, 2011 at 09:34 PM (#4014306)
It appears the league has vetoed another trade. Or pissed off the Clippers so much that they are done.

If I'm Paul, I'm filing an unfair labor practice suit.
   941. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: December 12, 2011 at 09:43 PM (#4014317)
Sam Amick at SI.com is reporting the league is blocking the NOH-Clippers trade.
   942. JC in DC Posted: December 12, 2011 at 09:46 PM (#4014320)
I hope Vince McMahon becomes the next commissioner of the NBA. I'd like some halftime fights between busty lasses to go along with the administrative orchestration.
   943. smileyy Posted: December 12, 2011 at 09:50 PM (#4014324)
If it involves CP3 playing somewhere I find interesting while wearing a luchadore mask to hide his identity, I'm down.
   944. steagles Posted: December 12, 2011 at 09:55 PM (#4014329)
Emiliano Carchia: Chicago Bulls announced today the team has re-signed forward Brian Scalabrine. Per team policy, terms of the contract were not disclosed. 1 minute ago


Beto Duran: Kupchak "weren't interested in getting back players that weren't good players" 3 minutes ago

Mike Trudell: Kupchak: Odom moved because he requested trade. Went to DAL because L.A. didn't want players/salary back (to keep flexibility). about 5 minutes ago

Beto Duran: Kupchak "in this case he couldn't get over the fact something like that could take place" about 5 minutes ago
   945. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: December 12, 2011 at 09:55 PM (#4014330)
Why don't you just tell me where you want Chris Paul to play...
   946. andrewberg Posted: December 12, 2011 at 09:55 PM (#4014331)
942- No chance. No chance in hell.

943- Could he be a Portland Blue Blazer?
   947. tshipman Posted: December 12, 2011 at 09:57 PM (#4014333)
So . . . if you're Demps, you have to resign, right? I mean, this is pretty much a travesty.
   948. andrewberg Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:05 PM (#4014336)
Is the NBA making an end run toward contracting the Hornets? That would have been a tough sell at the bargaining table, but if they make the existence of the franchise a huge headache for the players involved, the rest of the players might feel sorry enough to obscure the fact that it would be lost jobs.
   949. jmurph Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:10 PM (#4014339)
So . . . if you're Demps, you have to resign, right? I mean, this is pretty much a travesty.


If every single move in these potential deals wasn't being leaked to the press, this wouldn't be as much of a problem. I get overruled by my boss all the time, but millions of people don't find out (and, obviously, wouldn't care). But twice being publicly shot down after working for days to put these together... yeah, might be time to step aside.
   950. smileyy Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:14 PM (#4014345)
I'm trying to track the parallels if Vince McMahon ran the NBA. Shaq would come back to the league (cf. Kevin Nash), but which NBA player would be married to Stephanie McMahon to be the driving force behing that?
   951. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:15 PM (#4014346)
Is the NBA making an end run toward contracting the Hornets?


It's not impossible that what looks like ham-fisted authoritarianism is really clever positioning, but it's way too late (I assume) to do so for this season, so I'm not sure what exactly the game would be. In the meantime, yeah, if I were Demps I would be gone after the second trade got shot down. Unless the league is doing a much better job of communicating with him than they did initially, it would be nearly impossible to work under those conditions.
   952. rr Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:16 PM (#4014349)
I have made Odom posts at Laker boards today, so I will keep this fairly short.

Barring some huge unforeseen reversal, the trade does not make sense, either for "basketball reasons" or financial ones.

As to the emotional issues, I think it would have been smarter to let it sit a few days--have Odom talk to Fisher and maybe MWP, anyone else he might listen to, get his massive standing O from the Laker faithful on the 25th, and see where it led. Then if they felt they had to move him, try to find some place other than Dallas.

Easy for me to say sitting at my keyboard in my office, but I am not buying any spin on this from the FO based on what I know.
   953. madvillain Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:18 PM (#4014352)
Name- BTF NBA fantasy league
League #- 35100
password- primate


Is the same as the BBTF Lounge League? I signed up for the lounge league last week. Also, I've found 12 and 14 team leagues are more enjoyable than 10 team. The waiver wire is too stocked in 10 team leagues IMO.
   954. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:23 PM (#4014354)
Honestly, is it even realistic to think the Hornets can get a significantly better return than that Clips deal? They either need to get the hell out of the way of a trade like that happening or pull CP3 from the market entirely. This limbo is jamming up the entire league right now, which is ridiculous. Putting ethical questions of league ownership aside, it's untenable to jam up the works this badly for any longer.
   955. andrewberg Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:25 PM (#4014356)
Not the same. I will reopen it to get to 12 (I agree, that's better) once we have a 12th team to make it even. LA Bieber did it last year and didn't sign up yet. If anyone sees him floating on a Pujols thread, ask him if he wants in and I can up it to 12 to let you both get in.
   956. Sam M. Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:25 PM (#4014357)
I have to say, it seems to me there is a reasonable chance the NBA gets its head handed to it. I don't know the ins and outs of the labor agreement, and Stern surely has some very good lawyers advising him on all this, but Paul and the union must be able to make some hay out of the enormous conflict of interest that Stern is faced with here, with duties to act in the best interest of the Hornets while at the same time having obligations to the other owners and the league as a whole. IMHO, there is simply no way he can do what he's doing, especially with the smoking guns of Gilbert's and (to a lesser but still significant degree) Cuban's statements indicating the extent to which the interests/views of other owners were at play in all this. Stern can say all he wants that he considered only the interests of the Hornets, but when you are faced with a conflict like this, recusal is the only appropriate remedy -- at least as I see it. And Stern didn't do it.

Injunctions, treble damages to Paul, the Hornets, the Lakers, the Clippers . . . this could get very ugly.

And doesn't anyone else think we could see an informal rule developing among the players: nobody, ever, signs with the Cavs. Take Dan Gilbert and freeze his moronic ass to the ice of Lake Erie.
   957. rr Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:26 PM (#4014358)
ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
One of "changes" Dwight Howard wants is signing of Chauncey. If DH12 stays, sources say he'll urge Billups to spurn Heat and "anchor" Magic
   958. Quaker Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:29 PM (#4014363)
Breaking News: Stern to announce this year's NBA champion @ news conference at 7PM ET, live on ESPN. Advertising proceeds to go to the Boys & Girls Club.
   959. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:30 PM (#4014364)
I looked over the deal - adding Gordon is fairer than I was thinking. Not because of Gordon (who is 22 (well, for a few more days) and averaged 22.3 points last year (per - 18.6), a decent defender, and still low paid) or the value of that T-Wolves pick - but because Aminu (a year removed from being the #8 pick) / Bledsoe are worse than I thought.
[Kaman is what I remembered him to be - pretty good and kind of forgotten about.]

-- yes, i'm missing the point with that comment, i know.

**

Demps' future: I dunno - I might stick it out.
   960. madvillain Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:30 PM (#4014365)
Not the same. I will reopen it to get to 12 (I agree, that's better) once we have a 12th team to make it even. LA Bieber did it last year and didn't sign up yet. If anyone sees him floating on a Pujols thread, ask him if he wants in and I can up it to 12 to let you both get in.


Cool I'm ready to join, lemme know when you open it please.
   961. Maxwn Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:31 PM (#4014367)
berg, I would be interested in joining the league if you need another player. I've never done fantasy basketball, but what the hell, it can't be that hard.
   962. smileyy Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:34 PM (#4014371)
Max, as a first timer who was pretty active for the first 3/4 of the season, I hovered around 6-7th place in the Lounge League (while I was engaged with it). Gave me a bit more interest in the NBA. And a reason to swear at Brook Lopez.
   963. andrewberg Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:35 PM (#4014373)
http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/league/btfnba

I increased the league cap to 12. That is the URL. You guys should sign up and we will be set.
   964. Maxwn Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:40 PM (#4014378)
McRoberts + Rush = Mayo happened.

Also, this was reported earlier today, but it does not appear to be true, at least not yet. Mayo was at the Grizzlies camp today and both McRoberts' agent and Grizz FO people denied it. Heisley is quoted by the Commericial Appeal saying that they are not actively negotiating on a trade for O.J. Still wouldn't be surprised to see it happen, but at the moment it appears to have been an incorrect report.
   965. Maxwn Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:48 PM (#4014391)
I increased the league cap to 12. That is the URL. You guys should sign up and we will be set.

It wouldn't let me view the league when entered that into the URL bar. Do you need my email for a direct invite? I will see if I can figure out the messaging thing on here if so.
   966. rr Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:49 PM (#4014393)
@DK--

I agree. As I said earlier, I think basically the Clippers would have been trading Gordon + pick for Paul. They just spent 24M on Caron Butler and will spend 43M on DeAndre Jordan, so I don't think losing Aminu and Kaman means that much. Bledsoe is a nice athlete and will have a career, but he looks like a third guard to me. Kaman was leaving anyway, and what better move to use his expiring on than to add one of the top players in the game? I see Aminu and Bledsoe as useful but replaceable.

You add in the context I already described--and the fact that I think bringing in CP3 makes Griffin more excited about being there--I think the Clippers should have given Wile E. Stern, SuperGM, what he wanted.
   967. madvillain Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:49 PM (#4014394)
I'm in. I like the categories, good to see A/T ratio instead of just turnovers. I see we are doing daily. Might want to put a cap on the number of moves you can make in one week so you don't have guys just adding and dropping wily nily.
   968. rr Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:51 PM (#4014397)
Mitch Kupchak: “We are pursuing big deals right now. That has not changed. More than one big deal.”


Arenas and Varejao.
   969. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:53 PM (#4014400)
Maxwyn: the link didn't work for me either. If you go to the Yahoo fantasy basketball page, you can join the league by entering the #35100 and password primate.
   970. Maxwn Posted: December 12, 2011 at 10:55 PM (#4014401)
Ok, thanks, I will try that.

Edit: Ok, that worked. Thanks guys.
   971. rr Posted: December 12, 2011 at 11:01 PM (#4014410)
How is Prokhorov going to run the Nets from Siberia

How is Siberia a change from Newark?
   972. rr Posted: December 12, 2011 at 11:06 PM (#4014416)
ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
One source close to process tells ESPN that NBA does not see talks w/Clippers as over. NBA still "hopeful" CP3 fate will be "resolved soon"
   973. rr Posted: December 12, 2011 at 11:12 PM (#4014420)
ESPNChrisPalmer chris palmer
Dwight Howard on Orlando (via @NBATV): "I love this place and there's no place I'd rather be."
11 minutes ago
   974. smileyy Posted: December 12, 2011 at 11:13 PM (#4014424)
So Dwight Howard is gone?
   975. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 12, 2011 at 11:15 PM (#4014426)
It's one thing to have all sorts of mixed signals about a situation like D12's. It's another to have the player himself taking care of all the conflicting reports.
   976. rr Posted: December 12, 2011 at 11:16 PM (#4014427)
Maybe one of the NBA's attorneys read Sam M's post.

IIRC, NBPA did say if Paul was not moved by today, they would look into legal action.
   977. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 12, 2011 at 11:25 PM (#4014437)
I have to say, it seems to me there is a reasonable chance the NBA gets its head handed to it. I don't know the ins and outs of the labor agreement, and Stern surely has some very good lawyers advising him on all this, but Paul and the union must be able to make some hay out of the enormous conflict of interest that Stern is faced with here, with duties to act in the best interest of the Hornets while at the same time having obligations to the other owners and the league as a whole. IMHO, there is simply no way he can do what he's doing, especially with the smoking guns of Gilbert's and (to a lesser but still significant degree) Cuban's statements indicating the extent to which the interests/views of other owners were at play in all this. Stern can say all he wants that he considered only the interests of the Hornets, but when you are faced with a conflict like this, recusal is the only appropriate remedy -- at least as I see it. And Stern didn't do it.

But, OTOH, they just negotiated a new CBA with the Hornets being owned by the league and the issue barely came up, if at all. If the CBA and league constitution are silent on the issue, I don't see how Paul or the union could plausibly argue that the league can't own the Hornets and if the league can own the Hornets, the league can decide yes/no on trades for the Hornets.(**)

Hunter dropped the ball by not raising the Hornets as an issue in the negotiations for the new CBA. One of the most prominent union members was directly impacted, as were -- it's now clear -- the livelihoods and work environments of at least a dozen other union members. He was never going to get the league to divest, but he could have got a procedure in writing as to how trades and transactions were going to be handled, and an explicit right to arbitrate grievances, with specified and rapid procedures, on Hornet-related matters.

(**) Without conceding that they had any obligation to act "reasonably" under current law/CBA, I don't think it's inherently unreasonable for the Hornets to hang onto a top-5/top-10 player, and not trade him.
   978. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 12, 2011 at 11:27 PM (#4014440)
oops, maxwn - sorry. i blame hoopsworld.
one rumor is that indy is dragging their heels for temporary cap space reasons involving a possible pursuit of jamal crawford. no idea offhand if that makes any sense...
   979. andrewberg Posted: December 12, 2011 at 11:28 PM (#4014441)
Might want to put a cap on the number of moves you can make in one week so you don't have guys just adding and dropping wily nily.


Yup. It's set at 3 adds/drops per week.
   980. madvillain Posted: December 13, 2011 at 12:07 AM (#4014475)
Carmelo rolled his ankle today at the Knicks' opening practice and is day to day. Nothing serious but can't help, especially with the condensed camps.
   981. APNY Posted: December 13, 2011 at 12:08 AM (#4014478)
If Stern can show it took him all of two days to get a better offer then it justifies him blocking the Lakers trade for "basketball reasons". If he wants to turn down that better offer, well, he's the acting owner. Paul has no right to be traded.
   982. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 13, 2011 at 12:13 AM (#4014489)
Carmelo rolled his ankle today at the Knicks' opening practice and is day to day. Nothing serious but can't help, especially with the condensed camps.


Condensed camps cause condensed cramps.
   983. Tripon Posted: December 13, 2011 at 12:27 AM (#4014499)
The NBA is ridiculous. The Clippers basically traded their 2-7 best players and they still can't get a deal done.
   984. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 13, 2011 at 12:29 AM (#4014501)
one rumor is that indy is dragging their heels for temporary cap space reasons involving a possible pursuit of jamal crawford. no idea offhand if that makes any sense...

I think I've seen that they've now amnestied Posey. I don't see the use for them adding Mayo and Crawford though, but we'll see.

---

In response to CP3 back on to the Clips:

KBergCBS: League officials' efforts to re-engage Clippers in Chris Paul talks not going well, source says. As far as team is concerned, "It's over."


---

KC Johnson tweeting some good quotes from JVG:

KCJHoop: Jeff Van Gundy, who coached Knicks to Finals after last lockout: "I think this rush to play on Christmas Day is a huge mistake."
KCJHoop: Van Gundy on a roll, calling #NBA schedule "a total money grab," joking league should've made 82-game sked with day-night doubleheaders.
KCJHoop: J. Van Gundy, on what Thibodeau learned from being asst on that Knicks' staff: "Nothing. He's been one of the best coaches for a long time."
   985. Spivey Posted: December 13, 2011 at 12:35 AM (#4014509)
If Stern can show it took him all of two days to get a better offer then it justifies him blocking the Lakers trade for "basketball reasons". If he wants to turn down that better offer, well, he's the acting owner. Paul has no right to be traded.

Yeah, but it's not the best interest of the team. This team has #### for talent beyond Paul. If they can't get assets for him, who is going to want to buy the team. Hell, who wants to buy it right now with all this ########### going on? The answer, it appears, is no one.
   986. Sam M. Posted: December 13, 2011 at 12:49 AM (#4014520)
If Stern can show it took him all of two days to get a better offer then it justifies him blocking the Lakers trade for "basketball reasons". If he wants to turn down that better offer, well, he's the acting owner. Paul has no right to be traded.


That's certainly true -- how anyone gets this on to a judge's docket is the key. The fact that Paul has no legal right to be traded is a huge hurdle, and it's a bit hard to see how you translate Stern's conflict of interest into an unfair labor practice. Someone's going to have to be very creative to make that connection. Or . . . one of the teams that has had its trade turned down (Rockets, Lakers, Clippers) would have to be the plaintiff, alleging that the conflict of interest did affect its legal rights, and that team would have to sue the NBA and Stern.

The point is that if someone can convince a court that a legal right of some kind is at stake -- that's the hard part -- the violation of that right seems like the easy part. Because Stern sure has acted in a way that a lot of judges would quickly find appalling.
   987. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 13, 2011 at 01:07 AM (#4014539)
I haven't seen the number yet, but Clips claimed Billups. Nice move by them.
   988. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 13, 2011 at 01:11 AM (#4014544)
WojYahooNBA: Billups is terrific fit for Clippers. Amnesty rules don't allow him to be traded until after season. Clippers claimed Big Shot to play him.

WojYahooNBA: The minimum amnesty bid on Chauncey Billups deal had to be $1.3M. Says one GM: "I'm told there were multiple bids." Clippers had highest.


I wonder how they determine the minimum. Also, first I've seen anything about trading a claimed guy.
   989. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: December 13, 2011 at 01:41 AM (#4014575)
Paul is probably too good of a guy, but if I were in his shoes, I would never do any marketing for the league again.
   990. rr Posted: December 13, 2011 at 01:53 AM (#4014592)
If Stern can show it took him all of two days to get a better offer then it justifies him blocking the Lakers trade for "basketball reasons".


Legally, Stern is safe, I think, respecting the fact that Sam is a law professor and knows much, much more than I ever will about that.

Optically, Stern needs Gordon in the deal, and "better offer" is a subjective term in this context.
   991. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 13, 2011 at 01:57 AM (#4014597)
So, should the clips reenter the paulathon?

Current roster, I think, is:
1: Dj - Blake - Butler - Gordon - Billups
2: Kaman - Gomes or 2.5m exception guy - Aminu - Foye - Williams
3: Bledsoe, Cook, Warren
   992. Maxwn Posted: December 13, 2011 at 02:14 AM (#4014624)
Marc Gasol just tweeted that he's reached an agreement with the Grizzlies. It was pretty much a foregone conclusion, but I've still been sweating it a bit with no real news of any kind. Pretty excited about this.

He appears to have tweeted it out in English and Spanish, and then just for good measure what Google Translate says is Catalan. For the record, that is 3 more languages than Tony Allen uses in his twitter feed.
   993. rr Posted: December 13, 2011 at 02:20 AM (#4014629)
So, should the clips reenter the paulathon?

Without question.
   994. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 13, 2011 at 02:23 AM (#4014631)
Btw, it was kind of funny seeing the hubris of Coon and some of his followers wrt the Billups pickup. Not laughing at him mind you (he's a wonderful resource)...
   995. Sam M. Posted: December 13, 2011 at 02:28 AM (#4014635)
Legally, Stern is safe, I think, respecting the fact that Sam is a law professor and knows much, much more than I ever will about that.


Let me try it this way: if I were his lawyer, I would have told him that there is no way in the world he should be involved in this, because he has inherently conflicting obligations in his roles as (a) commissioner of the NBA, a job which carries with it fiduciary obligations to act in the collective interests of the league as a whole and the teams, and (b) de facto "owner" and decision-maker for the Hornets, a position which carries with it fiduciary obligations to act in the best interests of the Hornets and maximize the value of the franchise.

If a reasonable person could question whether the same person can, in this situation, be faithful to both sets of those obligations, then Stern has problems under what I understand to be some basic tenets of corporate law -- though I should add that this is not my area, it has been years since I even took that class in law school, and people with a lot more expertise than me should chime in. But if I'm not mistaken, if the CEO of a corporation is involved in negotiations on behalf of that corporation, and it turns out he has vested interests (and worse yet, he owes actual obligations to parties with an interest on the other side of those negotiations), he is in a ton of trouble.

That is why Stern was so careful in his statement after vetoing the Laker/Rocket deal to say that his action was "independent of the input of other NBA owners" -- or words to that effect. He said that because his lawyers knew that if his actions were NOT independent of the input or interests of those owners, he and the NBA were in a world of hurt. And I have to think there is at least an issue of fact -- it would be massively disputed -- whether Stern was acting in the Hornets' interest, or in the interests of the owners who pay his salary. Especially now that he's gutted TWO deals recommended by the people who actually are entrusted to run the team, and who are NOT subject to Stern's conflict. And who would, under oath, have to testify that they do, indeed, believe these trades were in the best interests of the Hornets.

All that said, I agree that getting someone into court who can actually show they have a true legal right affected by all this is a tough nut to crack. Stern may be safe, but NOT because he didn't do anything wrong. It stinks to high heaven, but it may well be that nobody is able to nail him for it.
   996. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 13, 2011 at 02:36 AM (#4014641)
LA Bieber did it last year and didn't sign up yet. If anyone sees him floating on a Pujols thread, ask him if he wants in and I can up it to 12 to let you both get in.
Sorry, boys, I'm out. 60 hour work weeks and basketball reasons will do that to a guy.
   997. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: December 13, 2011 at 02:38 AM (#4014645)
It stinks to high heaven, but it may well be that nobody is able to nail him for it.

Not so much that nobody can, but nobody will. I would think the Lakers (and now Clippers) have some grounds to make a fuss (though I'm not clear what the best way to raise it would be) but no NBA team is likely to do that. Either of Stern, or a Stern protege/proxy, will be running the show for the foreseeable future. I can't see any reasonable owner wanting to poke that bear with a stick.

Of course, I did say reasonable owner, which might leave an opening for Donald Sterling. He is an attorney, seems to have absolutely no interest other than the near-term bottom line, and has enough of a history of craziness that I wouldn't completely give up on the idea. But I'd still bet heavy against it.
   998. smileyy Posted: December 13, 2011 at 02:41 AM (#4014647)
Is there a collusion argument that CP3 could make, because all the owners are (effectively) on both sides of the trade? I'm not sure he can make that case now, but if he's unable to be traded and sign an extension (or a sign+trade at the end of the year), he loses out on a lot of money.
   999. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 13, 2011 at 02:59 AM (#4014660)
Ken Berger: Re: revival of CP3 talks with Clips, which began earlier today, source says, "The league has no choice. They have nowhere else to go." 3 minutes ago
"Nowhere else to go" sounds like a good basketball reason. Yes, I'm bitter about this.
   1000. Tripon Posted: December 13, 2011 at 03:04 AM (#4014665)
I want to join. Of course I'll get myself handed and I'll be an easy match up, but I'm willing to be the easy win to get some Fantasy love in.
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